Do for short torso (ladies)

[tantadi]

Anyone who knows where I can get a do for a short torso? Not for kids, but female. I've already seen that emaishop have them..anywhere else?

[RC_Kenshi]

Chiba Bogu has shorter do for women (or men with a shorter than average torso I suppose), my wife got one and is very happy with it. Check out their web site www.chibabogu.com (http://www.chibabogu.com). Not affiliated in any way - just a happy customer.


RC_Kenshi

[tantadi]

Regarding emaishop they might just have ladies size, not ladies fit, after looking at it one more time.

Thanks for the tip about Chibabogu. I'll contact them.

[Alison2805]

Chibabogu have a great page about modifications you can ask for to make bogu fit better for women. If you are getting your gear cuaton made, it might be a good idea. Havent tried it myself tho!

http://www.chibabogu.com/catalog/information.php?info_id=29

[tantadi]

Yes, I've taken their recommandations into consideration. The prices on their webpages are high, but I know they offer other bogu as well so I'll email them.

[yakesumi]

you can also check Tokyo Shobudo: http://t-shobudo.com/

[tantadi]

Update: I ended up with ordering it from e-kendo. Chibabogu have it also, at other prices and qualities. Tokyo Shobudo did not reply.

[GreenArrow]

Chibabogu have a great page about modifications you can ask for to make bogu fit better for women. If you are getting your gear cuaton made, it might be a good idea. Havent tried it myself tho!

http://www.chibabogu.com/catalog/information.php?info_id=29

At a price though... and risking the accusation of being dubbed as a rich kid who doesn't "deserve" sich decent stuff.

As ever, women either have to pay more, or put up with a c**p fit. Well, assuming they actually have hips and a chest and stuff, like quite a few of us do.

I'm not in armour yet as I only started Kendo in January, and to be honest I'm in no hurry to go into armour.... partly 'cos I suspect it'll be hellish uncomfortable, and I can't afford to get my own (selecting stuff that fits) at the moment.

[Commander]

My do is ok i guess, it could be better though, especially for up top protection (you know of what i speak of) considering im quite big there.
I can live with the Do, but it would be nice to get a custom tare and kote too.

Something worth saving for :)

[tantadi]

I'm still waiting for my ladies do from e-kendo, should be here any time now. I'll give a little review. When it comes to protection in the top departement, what can I say, it happens when the do cut is too high, and especially on hiki. But I don't think it is dangerous. Being stabbed from the front is another matter imo, if the mune is too small or soft.

I don't think I need a custom tare or kote. The tare is quite soft but protects, and my better kote have short futon.

Koei have bogu sets for women. (See bogubag.com).

[Solinde]

This is an interesting topic I think. I started practising in borrowed bogu about 1,5 years ago, and bought my own around last Christmas (yes I know...but since iaido is my top priority I miss a lot of kendo sessions, which is why things happen slowly for me ;) ). Anyway, the thing is none of them were made to fit women, but I've never had any trouble with the fit. I'm not really flat-chested (somewhere in the borderland between C and D cup) and I would'nt say my hips are that small either (although maybe my waist ought to be a little thinner ;) )... I think this might be due to the fact that I'm rather short (162 cm), because I've never had any problem with there being a space between mune and tsukidare either.

Anyway, I'm curious. When you say that you have problems due to being big-chested, how big are we talking about (if you're not too shy)? And what kind of problems do you have because of the bogu not fitting (maybe my bogu doesn't fit as well as I think it does?)?

[Commander]

This is an interesting topic I think. I started practising in borrowed bogu about 1,5 years ago, and bought my own around last Christmas (yes I know...but since iaido is my top priority I miss a lot of kendo sessions, which is why things happen slowly for me ;) ). Anyway, the thing is none of them were made to fit women, but I've never had any trouble with the fit. I'm not really flat-chested (somewhere in the borderland between C and D cup) and I would'nt say my hips are that small either (although maybe my waist ought to be a little thinner ;) )... I think this might be due to the fact that I'm rather short (162 cm), because I've never had any problem with there being a space between mune and tsukidare either.

Anyway, I'm curious. When you say that you have problems due to being big-chested, how big are we talking about (if you're not too shy)? And what kind of problems do you have because of the bogu not fitting (maybe my bogu doesn't fit as well as I think it does?)?

Well, being a DD cup can be tricky with a DO lol, i dont look big, i can be deceiving. (If any men comment about that size i'll kill em!) lol

just there is a bulge at the side of the DO sometimes, but nothing major

[tantadi]

I'm thinking that if the do was made to cover the bulge, it would get in the way of the arms. That is what is happening with my do. The mune is too wide.
The new do will probably have a less wide and tall mune, and I will be more exposed at the "bulges". Have to live with that I guess.

[GreenArrow]

That's reassuring....

I'm none too small up top either... D-cup... and I was wondering how much would bulge or how much would be left unprotected and get walloped when someone missed the target area...

Although I'm not in bogu as yet, when I get to that stage it'll be a while in club armour- I can't afford my own for rather a while as I've just upgraded my tournament bow...:D and I was wondering if I should be getting a Kevlar vest to cover the sides ;) Or put archer's chest-guards underneath...?

It was fun enough making sure I got a gi big enough to overlap decently...

Oh, and if the Trolls comment they'll have the Green Arrow to contend with...

TTFN.

[Commander]

Oh, and if the Trolls comment they'll have the Green Arrow to contend with...

TTFN.

HEHEHEHEHE :D

[Solinde]

A really good and tight sports bra is like magic, so if you're not already using that...go get one. And sadly...don't get the cheap ones, after getting a more expensive one you'll never by a cheap one again. :ko:

[GreenArrow]

Yeah, but how do you stop them turning smurf blue...?:D

I do wear an undershirt on occasion, but it can get too hot.

Also, although my sports bra is supportive it doesn't re-shape me... so I've still got quite a lot of space to cover up there...

Hmmmm, I can see me having to save up for the Chibabogu option and being uncomfortable in the interim...:cry:

[Solinde]

You get it in black. Blue won't show on black. ;)

[LarsCW]

I'm currently in the process of ordering a do from Chiba and they have really alot of options to choose from. Me being one of the guys won't have the upper problem but being 6'3" and 235lbs does give me a lower torso problem:D

It's not a cheap sollution but I'm looking forward to all of the practise I'll be having with a fitting do. I'm getting a 64 piece bamboo do-dai with a taller mune and the side will be some higher too.

So I wouldn't see how there couldn't be a sollution for any of you ladies either.

[Lloromannic]

I don't know what is the difference on the Chiba Bogu Do, but at the dojo we have one women's Do for loan (for girls of course). I'll try to get a picture sometime, buit the main difference is that the mune does not bend back much at the chest, but is almost upright, and even slightly to the front at the bottom of the Mune. If I or any other male put it on there is a rather large space between our chest and the mune, the tsukidare fits well with the mune too.

[GreenArrow]

I don't know what is the difference on the Chiba Bogu Do, but at the dojo we have one women's Do for loan (for girls of course). I'll try to get a picture sometime, buit the main difference is that the mune does not bend back much at the chest, but is almost upright, and even slightly to the front at the bottom of the Mune. If I or any other male put it on there is a rather large space between our chest and the mune, the tsukidare fits well with the mune too.

Do you know where it was purchased from?

A pic would be great too.

[Budo Angel]

Hi girls,

this was the question most asked of me by other girls in London. Women's Do, actually fitting, and being designed for the job, and other issue (like not being whacked on the t*ts - which flipping hurts).

Chibabogu is indeed a recommended supplier, but come at a price.

If you are dealing direct over distance, and can't personally go to Japan to be measured, you may deal with words like "Jo-sei-yo" cut.

What blokes (& admit it, most sensei & sempai are blokes) fail to realise is, that the wrong/badly fitting do does affect your kendo.

In Japan, a good armourer will measure the two points between your arms. ie, arms stretched out in front of you, hands together and measure the point across your chest. If the mune is too wide at this point, you will find it very difficult to hold the shinai "properly" as you are taught, without the do. So all that good technique goes to pot when you get a do on.

The next point is whilst narrower at the top, mune then needs to be cut under the arm, to the correct depth. Again we've all no doubt had the high (bad) do cut, what this is - is where the mune part of the do is cut too low, and the sides of your boobs essentially stick out the sides (no offence to you larger than C cup). Again this is the do not being cut correctly.

Finally a good women's do, will also be more concave from the mune joining the fibre (or bamboo) part, by that I mean if you look side ways it shouldn't be as flat as a man's one.

What does this all mean, apart from a trip to Japan to get measured properly. Well don't give up. But if you're going for custom fit, do make sure its the right measurements if you can check as best possible. Its horrible spending loads of money only to find out it doesn't fit. It took me 3 do's to get the right one. And why ? because I had good intentioned blokes trying to help. In the end it wasn't until my Japanse sensei, pointed out measurements that no one (or supplier) had ever asked for, or said was necessarily - and (drumroll) hey presto, my current (& hopefully last !) do - fits. Because the whole leather part of the do (mune/sides) FITS ! (as long as I don't put on too much weight !! he he).

Don't guess with "medium", "large" - its meaningless. Send in your measurements: between your chest (two points) when your arms outstretched horizontally (as you would be at full stretch for a men cut). Couple of inches below your armpit, to the top of your waist (high floating rib). Again to the bottom of you hip (ie where you would like the do to fall/finish). Finally ask for the measurement of the intended supplied Do, from the bottom of the do, to where it joins the mune part (they're going to stitch on), this will help you gauge if they're supplying the right mune.

I know its worse than clothes shopping from a catalogue, but stick with it. The suppliers fall into two catagories with similar results. Ones who just want to flog you do with no hassle. Others trying to guess what your size & shape are from minimumal figures you give them, and finally they're used to supplying skinny (fairly flat chested) Japanese girls (no offence to Japanese flatter chested brethren). Western shapes, boggle them !! lol

Good luck, sorry for verbage, but been through it myself, and endeavoured to pass on the advice to girls who asked me. :nervous:

Finally, after all that, you do know that women's tare are also cut different ?? (and strangely the standard men's is often too deep) Again this is because standard tare fail to take into account women's hips, different breathing place of the diaphram... gambattee :evolved:

[tantadi]

Great post!! I'm almost japanese in my shape so I hope my issues can be fixed with a shorter mune.

[GreenArrow]

Thanks Budo Angel, I think your post should be made compulsory reading for all male sensai/sempai with women in their dojos:wink:

Did you find a particular "better" supplier- what was your UK experience- or is it the Chibabogu route for most of us girls to get a decent fitting do in your experience?

[Lloromannic]

Finally a good women's do, will also be more concave from the mune joining the fibre (or bamboo) part, by that I mean if you look side ways it shouldn't be as flat as a man's one.



That's what I meant earlier, but this seems clearer.


As I said, I'll try to get a picture of the Do, but it's in storage at sensei's house.

[Budo Angel]

Thanks girls. Oh yes, and to really wind up the makers, nearly 90% of women's nodo will go over the top of the mune, unlike blokes who have a little gap (huge, and that's dangerous, they'll have that pointed out), meaning many shorter girls (anything 5' 6" & below) will have the nodo invariably over the top of the mune, "rubbing" in some cases. Not detrimental but again wrong sized mune, will find you caught-up occasionally, if the do moves, or you're particularly whacked and the men moves off the chin. Good luck, don't give up !

Sorry just noted, the question Green Arrow. No Chibabogu is recommended as custom, and because they have an English speaking customer advisor, Michael Komoto (American/Japanese). My now perfect Do, was (unfortunately for you) ordered through a Japanese supplier in Atami, (south Chiba) they only deal in Japanese, hence me not shouting about it... I'm guessing you guys need English and someone who does kendo to comprehend your requirements.

[Commander]

I really recommend Michael Komoto from Chibabogu, i've been communicating with him for the past 2 weeks and he has been really helpful and offers brilliant advice. It is expensive i know but worth it. You get what you pay for girls :)

[chidokan]

Rather than wind you all up (for a change!) have you thought about the chest protectors (Muneate) they use for kyudo? Two of these should give you the side protection you need...check around kyudo and archery sites for variations on the theme. They are to stop the string givng you a nasty nip, so should give similar protection form a shinai... Anyone knowing a bit of leatherworking should be able to come up with something similar...

http://kyoutoclub.hp.infoseek.co.jp/atieri.htm

http://www.archeryworld.co.uk/acatalog/Chest_Guards.html

[Budo Angel]

Tim, thank you for your comments.

Ladies, this kyudo mune-ate is NOT suitable, do not purchase. It is very thin leather and will not go under your DO mune. It is not designed to stand the rigors of lots of movement. It is designed to stop the string twanging. Not a shinai point heading in your direction at speed.

If you really are being whacked about the personals, www.kwon.co.uk has sports bras with hard cups. I would however personally not recommend these under a mune because it will make your chest an even bigger target, there is however one bra where each cup is insertable, this may suit those not larger than a C-D cup. Anything else and it would be dangerous on the floating rib.

Good luck

ps. not offence intended Tim.

[tantadi]

I just got my ladies do from e-kendo. Compared to my regular do, the mune is about one inch less wide at where the arms go out in kamae. The base of the do is about 1/2 shorter in height, and more "bulgy" around the middle part than the old one. I expected the mune to have just one row, but it has three. The lower part of the mune bend inwards quite a lot. It protects the lower parts of the tender bits and under the arm. Trying it on I could feel the difference, the arms have no conflict with the mune now. The do is just as tall as the old one, if I tie it really high maybe there could be a conflict with the men tsuki dare if the angle between the two parts make them meet. So maybe it could have been half an inch shorter, but I don't think it will cause a problem, the issue was the arm movement. The quality overall seems ok, it is a little more flexible than my old one, but also more bulgy, so I'll see how that works out. (E-kendo do offer a more expensive do base than the one I went for). The mune is stiff and the leather is folded at the front. I think this ladies do will fit medium/tall women who don't have a very short torso and are not big at the top.

[Kent Enfield]

Okay, I've gone looking, but can't find anything about women's do on e-kendo.com. Could some one give me a pointer?

And, yes, I'm a guy, but I do have women kohai.

[tantadi]

I emailed them and asked if they had it. Then there was some emailing back and forth about the options of dodai and mune. Good customers service. I tried it at practice tonight, no problems with receiving do because of the mentioned flexibility of the dodai, and not any conflict with the tsuki dare either. So I'm happy!

[chidokan]

My thoughts were a copy based on the design made from a thickish leather. That should mould but still 'give'.... the straps if similar would hold them in place.

[GreenArrow]

Absolutely.

I do archery- believe me the archery chest-guards would NOT protect against a do cut! They are designed to slide the string away and off. If you catch yourself- you still know about it but you don't hurt much. The first-line chest protection in archery is the stance/technique- basically the chest guard forms a smooth surface that stops the string taking your nipple off (sorry to be so graphic). Also keeps loose clothing out of the way. That's why most men wear them too... incidentally only in the Recurve discipline as that's the only one with relevant string angles.

GreenArrow

Tim, thank you for your comments.

Ladies, this kyudo mune-ate is NOT suitable, do not purchase. It is very thin leather and will not go under your DO mune. It is not designed to stand the rigors of lots of movement. It is designed to stop the string twanging. Not a shinai point heading in your direction at speed.

If you really are being whacked about the personals, www.kwon.co.uk (http://www.kwon.co.uk) has sports bras with hard cups. I would however personally not recommend these under a mune because it will make your chest an even bigger target, there is however one bra where each cup is insertable, this may suit those not larger than a C-D cup. Anything else and it would be dangerous on the floating rib.

Good luck

ps. not offence intended Tim.

[Myy]

Hello everybody,

Just stumbled over this discussion and I must say this is one of the most usefull ones going on.:grin: I registered just to participate this one.

Thank You Budo Angel especially for the detailed explanations on do.
I have been so badly informed about the possibilities of custom made do. No sensei, senpai nor a bogu dealer has ever brought these possibilities up. Also I have never seen a custom made do for a C/D side lady.

I even have a senpai with this D-cup size problem on her cheast and she always just hurts her boops. Now everyone is just afraid to hit a do on her because if one misses the target it will result in scolding.
I do not want this to go on and I want at least to inform my kohai better.

So, I was hoping some one would finally have a picture of a boop-friendly-do.

Spread the light!!

Myy

[Budo Angel]

Er...I'll try & take a photo, and see what I can do...the key issue is looking from the SIDE view - then you'll see the real difference in the DO (be that bamboo/fibre) angle at the attached mune "lining" (excuse my bad English description) that accounts for erm...our chest. From the front, a DO should look no different, its the "armpit"/ rib-cage side leather part that's cut differently too. Only the eagle eyed would notice the points of the mune (where you tie your himo (strings)) being more narrow for women putting their hands in front to hold the shinai properly (like you can do, when not wearing do)...

Wow I'm amazed at this discussion ! (as I say, only on my 3rd DO with good advice did I get the right fitting DO...) Good luck girls

[redbutterfly]

i have my own armour but it has been soemtimes annoying. it is because there hasnt been women's special custom made things when i was to get my own bogu. >.> and i dont have any money to buy a new one

[musicdropout@ho]

...
In Japan, a good armourer will measure the two points between your arms. ie, arms stretched out in front of you, hands together and measure the point across your chest. If the mune is too wide at this point, you will find it very difficult to hold the shinai "properly" as you are taught, without the do. So all that good technique goes to pot when you get a do on.

The next point is whilst narrower at the top, mune then needs to be cut under the arm, to the correct depth. Again we've all no doubt had the high (bad) do cut, what this is - is where the mune part of the do is cut too low, and the sides of your boobs essentially stick out the sides (no offence to you larger than C cup). Again this is the do not being cut correctly.

Finally a good women's do, will also be more concave from the mune joining the fibre (or bamboo) part, by that I mean if you look side ways it shouldn't be as flat as a man's one....

....Don't guess with "medium", "large" - its meaningless. Send in your measurements: between your chest (two points) when your arms outstretched horizontally (as you would be at full stretch for a men cut). Couple of inches below your armpit, to the top of your waist (high floating rib). Again to the bottom of you hip (ie where you would like the do to fall/finish). Finally ask for the measurement of the intended supplied Do, from the bottom of the do, to where it joins the mune part (they're going to stitch on), this will help you gauge if they're supplying the right mune.
:

hi budo angel,

thanks for the info, i just started kendo training and wont be getting my protective gear for awhile yet but when i get it i want to make sure its right. and since i'm so new to kendo, i really don't know how anything should fit, where it should stop or start and what it deffinetely needs to cover.

i'm a little sketchy on the measurements you gave us...if you could make it more detailed i'd really appreciate that. i don't have tons of money to blow so i wanna make sure i get proper fitting gear right from the start. and i don't think its gonna help that i'm a DD and have some kicking hips too.

any advice or clarification would be great!!! ^_^

thanks in advance.

[Budo Angel]

Hello again...

...still here are we ?! Mine (OK about 7yrs ago now, but rubbish exchange rate to Yen...so its probably cheaper now !) was about £300 (is that $570 ?) and that's classed as "custom"...

I will try and find all the measurements on a diagram and scan it. In the general budo catalogs they only show you 2 standard measurements. You need to help the supplier (if you're not in Japan in person) with the additional ones I mentioned above.

>little sketchy on the measurements you gave us
which ones exactly ??
don't think its gonna help that i'm a DD
...not being personal, there are bigger ladies doing Kendo me thinks...don't worry.

[Lady_Kitsune]

I have a question... the only way for having a do is by custom, i mean there is no store that sell you bogus for women at all?

[Budo Angel]

Yes, already made Do exist, but they are normally those are white sets ! Otherwise I don't know about others' experience, only my own.

ps. not being personal, the majority of Japanese women are not ...big chest.

Remember I think Chiba Bogu will also say...that mass produced are made to 'fit as many as possible' - that's business... when you come to detail, then things like even the tare waist part, should be cut more narrow, because women's diaphrams are placed differently - so standard wide tare often sold actually impede correct breathing from hara...but now we're getting into pedantics...just saying WOMAN and giving sizes, some bogu suppliers will make effort to note difference. Some bogu suppliers, only have "standard"...

My tare is more "youth" size, because of this issue... an adult man tare was half way up my chest ! Getting women's tare, would be custom, and I decided to spend the money on Men and Do being 'custom' instead...

Don't worry, just get what you can. Only when you have lots of time or experience or can go to Japan, or have Japanese person to help you - can you go crazy with "custom" stuff...

Good luck !

[Lady_Kitsune]

Thank you, Budo Angel

[JByrd]

My wife recently received a custom dou from Chiba Budogu. She is too small for an off the shelf model, so both the mune and the do dai were custom built.

We provided measurements and photos and they got the size just right. The thread colors are crimson, olive green, and gold tea.

From what I heard, the dou received a lot of attention from the women at the International Budo University when it was in the Chiba showroom:

http://csdtserver2.isu.edu/~jon/IMG_1659.JPG
http://csdtserver2.isu.edu/~jon/IMG_1666.JPG
http://csdtserver2.isu.edu/~jon/IMG_1669.JPG

[Budo Angel]

It never ceases to amaze me, people who get custom and still plump for standard black...why o why - the world should be in colour !!! unless you're colourblind...ps. Chiba Bogu are good for personal service eh. That Suzuki san is a genius with needle & cotton... ps. Congrats to the wife on getting it whacked.

[Theodore]

My wife recently received a custom dou from Chiba Budogu. She is too small for an off the shelf model, so both the mune and the do dai were custom built.

We provided measurements and photos and they got the size just right. The thread colors are crimson, olive green, and gold tea.

From what I heard, the dou received a lot of attention from the women at the International Budo University when it was in the Chiba showroom:

http://csdtserver2.isu.edu/~jon/IMG_1659.JPG
http://csdtserver2.isu.edu/~jon/IMG_1666.JPG
http://csdtserver2.isu.edu/~jon/IMG_1669.JPG

I really want to see this. Good thing the Idaho kendo seminar is coming up Sept 14-16th weekend.

[Theodore]

It never ceases to amaze me, people who get custom and still plump for standard black...why o why - the world should be in colour !!! unless you're colourblind....

Wabi-sabi? Shibumi?

[JByrd]

It never ceases to amaze me, people who get custom and still plump for standard black...why o why - the world should be in colour !!! unless you're colourblind...ps. Chiba Bogu are good for personal service eh. That Suzuki san is a genius with needle & cotton... ps. Congrats to the wife on getting it whacked.

Ha ha! You're right, Chiba service is great, though the custom build did take a bit longer than usual. My personal feeling is that the choice of basic black reflects her humble and modest nature. If she stands out from the crowd in the dojo, she'd prefer it to be because of her spirit, and the beauty of her Kendo. The one feature that is purely for the sake of appearance is something only she would typically see: The natural antique finish on the bamboo inside of the do dai.

[H.Sandsleth]

That is a pretty do. The natural finish on the inside, is that some kind of laquer or is it untreated? I thought that the ususal paint on the inside served as some kind of moisture barrier for the bamboo slats?

[JByrd]

That is a pretty do. The natural finish on the inside, is that some kind of laquer or is it untreated? I thought that the ususal paint on the inside served as some kind of moisture barrier for the bamboo slats?

It looks like a stain was applied to get the caramel color, and then it was sealed with some kind of a clear coat.

[H.Sandsleth]

....Thanks!

[Paikea]

Wabi-sabi? Shibumi?It's why you leave a place for God in the middle of your bonsai, and an intentional imperfection. See? I'm not a barbarian! (sometimes...)

Tell Michelle that's a real nice doh Jon, I'm jealous.