Yuko datotsu

[Charlie]

How do you define it? What conditions have to be met? Do they all have to be met, or just most of them?

I think:

-Obviously, the shinai has to find its target
-The edge, not the flat of the shinai, must cut
-The monouchi, the top third of the shinai, must cut
-It must make a good popping noise, not a dull thud or a tap, which demonstrates tenouchi
-The cut must be aligned with the feet and the body - ki ken tai ichi
-Kiai must be demonstrated
-Good posture is preferred but not necessary - i.e., it is possible to score if the body is too far forward or twisted

Feedback, please?

[tango]

Dude, didn't you have to take a written test in order to pass nidan or sandan?

[Charlie]

No, tango, they made an exception in my case because I was just that good. :D

Actually, I failed that test and they are asking me to repeat it and this is cheating.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Article 16. The valid strike points on the body shall
be the following:
a. MEN (head). The forehead and the left and right
areas above the temple. The forehead is the cushion part
of the MEN and not the metal screen. However, the screen
may become a valid strike point if player throws their head back.
b. KOTE (hand). The area on the forearm covered by the
round patterned covering. Generally the right forearm,
the left forearm can also be a valid point during
CHUDAN-NO-KAMAE (left hand forward holding the sword);
JODAN-NO KAMAE
(a KAMAE where the SHINAI is held over the head);
WAKI-KAMAE (a KAMAE
where the SHINAI is held downward by the right foot);
NITO-NO-KAMAE (KAMAE using two SHINAI); AGE-KOTE
(where the KOTE is held above the pit of the
stomach, except when executing DATOTSU); and KAMAE
variations from CHUDAN. The top of the hand is not
a valid DATOTSU.
c. DO (torso). The left and right sides of the DO.
d. TSUKI (throat). The TSUKI-TARE (throat flap on the
MEN) and the breast section of the DO when JODAN-NO KAMAE
and NITO-NO-KAMAE are used.

Article 17. YUKO DATOTSU is defined as the accurate striking
or thrusting made to DATOTSU spots with the SHINAI at its
DATOTSU-BU edge with KIAI
(spirit and positive voice), the right posture, and ZANSHIN
(mental and physical alertness against the opponents attack;
positive follow through of attack and strike),
a. One handed DATOTSU and DATOTSU in retreat, however,
must be executed after a clear positive strike.
b. GO-NO-WAZA (DATOTSU countering an opponent's DATOTSU)
as a counter or parry to TSUBA-ZERIAI (when both opponents
establish contact with TSUBA) must be clear and precise.

2. An accurate DATOTSU in the following instances shall be valid:
a. When a DATOTSU is made immediately after a player
loses their grip on the SHINAI or drops it.
b. DATOTSU made simultaneously when the opponent steps
out of bounds (court).
c. DATOTSU made simultaneously when the match is
signaled as ended.
3. DATOTSU in the following cases will not be considered valid:
a. AIUCHI (valid DATOTSU made mutually and simultaneously
by both opponents).
b. DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively.
The above is from the 1988 version, but still more or less valid. As always, case by case. Judging mudansha not everything need be perfect. There's some deliberately vague language that allows for the referees to make a judgement call. Some stuff isn't in there, like needing a reason to hit certain cuts especially doh.

[Charlie]

"...like needing a reason to hit certain cuts especially doh."

Can you expand? I was just looking at the above myself and was about to post it but you beat me to it. I forgot zanshin on my original list.

[DCPan]

" DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively."

I don't understand this one...how you have effective datotsu if it is effectively parried?

[DCPan]

"...like needing a reason to hit certain cuts especially doh."

Can you expand? I was just looking at the above myself and was about to post it but you beat me to it. I forgot zanshin on my original list.

Like going for doh when the guy didn't raise his arm?

I know folks who train to hit the bottom edge of the doh...while it goes in, this doesn't really take advantage of the idea of using seme to make the guy get out of kamae for the doh.

[Paikea]

" DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively."

I don't understand this one...how you have effective datotsu if it is effectively parried?3. DATOTSU in the following cases will not be considered valid:
.
.
.
b. DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively.

[DCPan]

3. DATOTSU in the following cases will not be considered valid:
.
.
.
b. DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively.

LOL, reading is my STRONG point...really :sleeping:

[Neil Gendzwill]

"...like needing a reason to hit certain cuts especially doh."

Can you expand? I was just looking at the above myself and was about to post it but you beat me to it. I forgot zanshin on my original list.Doh is one cut that people constantly throw in when there is no opening. My sensei has told me not to award it unless I can detect that there was an opening, as opposed to just chucking it in there and hoping it lands.

b. DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively.And there's another gray area thingy - suppose someone blocks your men cut. If he blocks it enough so that it doesn't hit the men-buton, then obviously no point. If he blocks it and it still connects, then it might be a point if you cut through the block strongly enough to get a solid contact. But if you get through and the cut is weak, also no point. Not everything is in the regs.

[Paikea]

LOL, reading is my STRONG point...really :sleeping:Don't feel bad, I had to read it three times, and I'm still wondering where subsection #1 went...

[Charlie]

These kinds of gray areas and anecdotal examples are why I made the thread, really. I thought what DC thought, by the way, "Well, of course it isn't valid if it is parried?"

[DCPan]

These kinds of gray areas and anecdotal examples are why I made the thread, really. I thought what DC thought, by the way, "Well, of course it isn't valid if it is parried?"

Not necessarily. It has to be an "effective" parry. If they do the trick that was mentioned in Miyazaki sensei's book about flattening the strike, the strike could roll over your parry and score. Tall people tend to do that naturally, but for those of us vertically challenged....

[Paikea]

And there's another gray area thingy - suppose someone blocks your men cut. If he blocks it enough so that it doesn't hit the men-buton, then obviously no point. If he blocks it and it still connects, then it might be a point if you cut through the block strongly enough to get a solid contact. But if you get through and the cut is weak, also no point. Not everything is in the regs.Every time David doesn't raise his flag for me, he's more than happy to tell me all about why. :wink:

[Charlie]

I'm also interested in the extent kenshi must "sell" the point to the shinpan, and at what level. For example, how much kiai is enough kiai? How about posture? How do you feel about letting someone be as horizontal as a spear or as twisted as a corkscrew - still ippon? How big must the swing be?

[kendokamax]

In the case of two players with different kendo level.

Who would have the advantage?

Does the person with less skills needs to get a point in the range of quality of their stronger opponent ?

How do you rate the minimum value for an ippon in a match?

[ahmed61086]

Well, I realy dont know much about the subject, but it seems to me, the only times shimpan give point to someone with realy bad posture is when it is a debana kote or a hiki do, and wierd attacks like that, which are difficult to attach without change posture.

[JBouch]

It's probably easiest to come up with your own interpretation by starting from the accepted theory, which is to say, the 5 elements of yuko datotsu rather than the practical signs of a datotsu in judging. So you've got kamaeru (stance), semeru (fighting for the center/breaking through their kamae), toraeru (taking opportunity) utsu (hitting) and zanshin.

In terms of theory, all are supposed to be present for a yuko datotsu to be present. Shinpan will make judgement calls if a quick reaction from a somewhat off-balance position was still in good form or not, but exceptions like that aside I think taking these on face value gives a good foundation for what a yuko datotsu would look like: not just hitting with the right part of the shinai or things like that, but breaking through the opponent's kamae and, through the attack, beating him/her.

It sounds kind of redundant, but to put it a different way...when you look back to truly good points you've seen scored in shiai, did you ever think to yourself how it could have gone either way? Most likely not; the one who scored the solid point will have made it to his mark quicker, stronger, and more efficiently than the opponent, and through his zanshin was not vulnerable to a quick counter.

Yuko datotsu infers a certain level of dominance within that moment, defeating the opponent in all of its five elements. Intimidating him and holding him at bay with good kamae, weakening his with your seme, going for the weaknesses in his kamae before he can recover it, THEN achieving a solid hit while maintaining posture and form, and lastly remaining aware with your zanshin. How much a judge can 'feel out' the fight for the center or the capturing of opportunity is up for debate I suppose, but I would believe that success in those areas becomes tangible in the strength of the cut itself. If that makes sense.

Anyways, the top half is what I've been taught, and the bottom half is what I think, so anybody can feel free to rip right into that bottom half. I tend to get really analytical and theoretical about these things.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In the case of two players with different kendo level.

Who would have the advantage? From a judge's point of view, we should hold them both to the same standard. I do that if it is a real competition. In a club practice shiai, I hold the stronger kendo player to a higher standard.

In general if the judge expects one player to win, he can fall into the trap of always looking for that player to make something happen, and possibly missing the point made by the underdog. I have heard this complaint about WKC judging when the Japanese team is involved.

I think there is also a lower standard for mudansha. If we didn't, we'd never finish some of those damn matches.

[samurai999]

Well, I realy dont know much about the subject, but it seems to me, the only times shimpan give point to someone with realy bad posture is when it is a debana kote or a hiki do, and wierd attacks like that, which are difficult to attach without change posture.

Hmm if you put it that way. Look at the junior kids matches (the 9-11 yr olds). They don't swing a shinai with the potency of an adult or yudansha so the judges give them a bit of a break. Adult kyu as well here in Cali. From what I have seen, they seem to not worry about form as much as whether the hit was in. i had one guy score on me with a slightly crooked posture, no tenouchi and no ki-kentai ichi, and the judges still gave that one. BUT the hit was still there.

Tim

[KenShi_JoB]

Sorry post in the wrong thread.

[tango]

No, tango, they made an exception in my case because I was just that good. :D

Actually, I failed that test and they are asking me to repeat it and this is cheating.

btw.. i forgot to add a smiley to my first response..
I wasn't trying to be an a-hole... :D

[Charlie]

LOL, no worries.

JBouch, that was an excellent post, man. They are teaching you something up at t' college after all!