About Irak

[akumalkenshi]

Reading a note from a soldier asking for advice while doing service in Irak, I noticed that there were several post from fellow american, expressing their support.

What do you think of the Invasion ok Irak?

do you approve?

dissaprove?

simply dont care?

I'm trying to use the poll tool, hopefully it will work.

[KhawMengLee]

You know..this whole Iraq affair has got me thinking there are only two real answers to the current administration's actions.

1) They are really out of touch with the reality of the situation. A sort of what we 'think' the situation is as opposed to what is 'really' happening. I mean in some instances they really don't have a clue. I'll give you an example; Condy Rice went over to Indonesia a few months back to promote the US's image in the region and to foster better ties. She did this by launching an 8.5 million education plan using Sesame St in a press conference. Not only did she screw up by calling Miss Piggy, Miss Pinky, she also introduced the only character that was insulting to one of the worlds largest Muslim population. I mean its like going into a Synagogue and passing out pork rinds to the worshippers.

I mean Iraq is a real quagmire...and the way the Admiistration is running things...oh'well...

2) The second way I see the situation is that the people behind the idiots in charge are quite happy to see the region in chaos because of one simple reason. While it all goes to hell and everyday the reports are about bombings and troop deaths...no one remembers what is happening to the oil.

I mean the Oil rigs are still running...where is it all going?

Unfortunately, this sounds too much like Syrianna...

************************************************** *
All in all though, this doesn't help the troops on the ground. They and the Iraqi public are the one's that are suffering.

You can't blame the troops and you cannot hate them to because they were sent there on orders. Whether they believe the cause or not, they are doing their duty.

[nodachi]

I support the troops because they are just doing their job. Also it sucks to do something that is mandated by the government because they have to, then come home and have people crap on them because they disagree with the government.

I disagree with the government. I am still unconvinced about the honest reasons for why we went in. I do not like that we are a warring country. However, we have messed things up so much at this point that we are forced to stay there and try and leave things better than the way we found it. Just up an leaving will only crap on Iraq for removing government systems but not helping to create a stable one in its place.

I hope that the government had information that is classified and they can't share with us yet.... hopefully there was a real reason to go in and fix the problem because all the other reasons are now all mixed up and contradicted and just don't sound on the level.

I hope in the end things turn out for the best. Then regardless of the negatives, people can be thankful for the positives that came out of this experience.

So in a brief summary, the feelings we have towards soldiers (just like the people of a country) need to be separated from our feelings towards the government. I know the two are connected, but there is still a bit of separation between the two groups... so support the soldiers, they are just doing their job, but if you don't like the war, complain to the government, not the soldiers.

I have now broken one of my cardinal rules, discussing politics or religion on an internet forum. BRING THE FLAMES!!! :)

And as a side note to this discussion, all of the president's laws on education are all crap too. The ideals he has are great, but the reality of them are ridiculous and anyone who has spent even 1 week observing/teaching in a normal (non wealthy perfect children) school would understand this.

[Justin]

Not only did she screw up by calling Miss Piggy, Miss Pinky, she also introduced the only character that was insulting to one of the worlds largest Muslim population. I mean its like going into a Synagogue and passing out pork rinds to the worshippers.


Well, that made me laugh :ko:

[KhawMengLee]

Well, that made me laugh :ko:

We aim to please:smiley:

[Ignatz]

The old Sun Tzu model of war was that you should never fight a battle unless it will effect the outcome of the war and you should never start the battle unless you have already won it.
It seems that the model that the U.S. followed was kind of a cross between Von Clauswitz, Blitzkreig and MacArthurs WWII island hopping but without cutting off the enemy supply lines.
None of the civilian leaders whom have ever really served in war or the military, and I count the Commander in Chief among this group because all he did was learn to fly jets, he lost his rating because he couldn't apply himself enough to learn how to navigate or file a flight plan. They ignored the intelligence and ignored the advice of the experienced military leaders forcing the military to come up with a plan that complied with their wishes.
There is no exit strategy. There is no end game.

I believe that Bush the elder left hussein in power because at the time the Iranians would have filled the void and the devil that you know is better than the devil that you don't. The Iranians would have been a big problem for the Saudis, Bushies buddies,

One of the problems we have now is that people cast the question in terms of "If you don't support the invasion that means you don't support our troops." That is poppycock. (Now there's a word)

On the other hand, many people joined the guard thinking they would never have to actually serve. Re-enlistments are down and the officer corps is a shambles, people are getting promoted to Maj. or Lt.Col. that would have been passed over in years past.

On the other hand (good thing I have more than two hands) it is good to have civilian control over the military but bad if they are morons.

Support the war? No way.
The troops? Of course.

[KhawMengLee]

I believe that Bush the elder left hussein in power because at the time the Iranians would have filled the void and the devil that you know is better than the devil that you don't. The Iranians would have been a big problem for the Saudis, Bushies buddies,


Yeah...they got a real problem now because they've pushed the agenda of democracy in Iraq. So you have a shiite majority...the same majority who supported the Iranians when they invaded(hence, the issue of Saddam gassing his own people).

Now the Administration is trying to get more 'friendly' people in charge(eg. the Sunnis or the Kurds) but because you have democracy, the shiites wil win out in the end. Then of course you can't invade or harm Iran because those same people you are arming will turn right around and bite your arse.

All in all they should have just left Saddam alone.

[Manuka]

"I believe that Bush the elder left hussein in power because at the time the Iranians would have filled the void and the devil that you know is better than the devil that you don't. The Iranians would have been a big problem for the Saudis, Bushies buddies,"

I do not think the Turks would have allowed that.
Turkey has one of the largest military forces in the world, and as the British found out at Galipoli in WWI they do know how to fight.
Turkey, Iran, and Iraq all have a corner of their country which is ethnically Kurdish. None of those countries want the Kurds to be independent. Joining any of those 3 countries would also join 2 of the kurdish groups.

At the time I had heard that psychological evaluations on the 20 Iraqis most likely to succeed Saddam were all worse, which is why he was left in situ.

The current fiasco seems to be based on the bad intelligence that Iraq was close to having a nuke. The threat there was an attack on the Saudi oilfields and using a nuclear mine as the threat to hold the oilfield hostage. Could Iraq beat Saudi with US support, no way. Could they capture access to the oilfield for long enough to put a nuke down the shaft ?? probably. This is the nuke delivered by truck to an area temporarily held by Republican Guard of the Iraqi army.

Now cut off all Saudi and Iraqi oil and see how the US survives a winter. With the retreat from Kuwait the Iraqis certainly showed the intent of "if we cannot have it- no one can", but setting fire to Kuwaiti fields is not the same as an underground Nuke in the Saudi fields.

What would be the effect in a US winter with the loss of 17% of the oil supply ? Electricity generation, food distrubution, heating.
Some could be made up from Canada(18%), Mexico(15%) and Nigeria(12%) but that would require a substantial increase in production and the problem would be refinieries. We seem to have irritated the only other big producer Venezuela, so they probably would not be in a rush to help.

Even a 'dirty bomb' at the Saudi refineries would close the facilities down for years.
Does a nuclear capability in either North Korea, or Iran, have the same threat to the US? absolutely not.

Was the threat real ? no.
Did intelligence at the time indicate that Iraq was close? yes

Sort of like Spruance at Midway in WWII. He launched all aircraft without knowing where the Japanese were, because intelligence on their last position and bearing showed they were already in his area, and he could not afford being caught with his aircraft on deck.

Sometimes you guess correct, sometimes not.

Perhaps a better alternative to invasion would have been using the B-52's to obliterate any building that did not allow the UN nuclear inspectors access.
Better for the US? of course.
Better for the Iraqi people? probably not, unless you were one of the inner clique.

[Manuka]

"the same majority who supported the Iranians when they invaded"

Iraq attacked Iran.
They saw opportunity when the Khomeini government executed the entire officer corps of the Iranian army after Pahlavi fled the country.

[JLee]

Here is my perspective/opinion about the War in Iraq:

It may sound strange to most, being a Soldier whose life is directly affected by our government's decision to go into this war, but I try not to think too much into the debate on justifying it; My #1 goal is to bring everyone in my company back to their loved ones safely. Regardless of our beliefs, whether we believe in the government or not, I have Soldiers (some as young as 19 years old, fresh out of high school) that are in the harm's way and if I can bring them all back safely, that is enough justification for my part in this war, that I've done some good out of this chaos.

Whether the government was right or wrong on its decision, I say let history be the judge. Personally, I am tired of seeing and hearing arguments portrayed in today's media. It's been dragging for so long and I humbly ask that let Soldiers do their job, and show the world the positive efforts we have made, rather than focusing on all the negative sides.

[akumalkenshi]

Im glad to see that this issue ( expressing approval or not) about the occupation of Irak went rather smooth.

I just want to know a few things, that maybe help me understand better why the current US administration still has a large base of supporters.

not only they went in and invaded a country based on misleading info.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/npp/iraqintell/home.cfm

but also profited from selling the supplies to the troops, and by reconstructing what they went in and destroyed ( the value of a bomb becomes cero after it blows, but if you can also rebuild and charge for it what was destroyed, hey its a no brainer!

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/121004A.shtml

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0531-02.htm

Also the fact that the US is building a government center/palace/embassy that shows the US disposition to rule the land it conquered for a long time.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2162249,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195042,00.html

the combination of all of the above, leads to the conclusion that this is a war planned for profit.

The US went in and took by force the precious oil.

what anoys me is that people fall for the current administration version of the occupation.

They cannot go public and say " hell, we need the oil more than they, and we can take it!" , because it's just not right, so all the lies were said, and many people believe them.

I guess my question is, what of this hard and stubborn facts, does the average supporter of the current US administration knows , or is aware of?

[Galo]

I guess my question is, what of this hard and stubborn facts, does the average supporter of the current US administration knows , or is aware of?

Or care.
You must realize that there is a sector of the american population that truly believes the US has the right to step forward and do whatever it takes to protect its way of life, incluing "preemptive strikes".

Also, Bush Jr.'s popularity is not currently at its highest. Actually, it's currently around 33% (people that support and approves Bush's administration) and the 3rd worst public opinion rate in american history, only below Nixon and Carter.

I'm sure the republicans are worried for the upcoming mid-term election, considering this "image" the president has right now.

[kenshi07]

perhaps we should have just had saddam assainated, and then watch what happens

[Justin]

perhaps we should have just had saddam assainated, and then watch what happens

Sh*t happens. :sleeping:

Well, people would blame the US, or whatever.

[lemi]

Yea, this is what I also dunno understand - Iraq is so popular in media, and everyone can spit on US for being there as I think it's trendy now. But the same people do not care about China occupying Tibet or Russia killing people in Chechnya on daily basis. If you compare Iraq to Chechnya – Iraq is really lucky, at least US government is not trying to evaporate the nation with it’s history and culture…

[KhawMengLee]

Sh*t happens. :sleeping:

Well, people would blame the US, or whatever.

I think blaming the US is like deciding to kill all the Chinese because you got a lousy plate of Kung Po Chicken.

But I do blame the administration and their backers for the current shit state in Iraq. These guys have shat on a plate and the American public in general have either made no mention of this poo poo platter or have just yummed it up with gusto. I mean how stupid was it?Its like saying...oh, Cuba attacked us...lets go invade Mexico.

I mean Bush and Co. have basically destroyed whatever credibility the US would have overseas...and also have done more for the extremists recruiting drive than Osama ever could.

[Washington]

right idea.. wrong time.. should of been done the first war

[NorthernKendoka]

I belive that invading Iraq was a the wrong thing to do, even if the suspicions were correct. Since it happend anyway I think it's important that the US doesn't just leave Iraq and let it slip into complete anarchy.The problem was that Bush expected Iraq to turn into a democracy overnight (if the whole democracy acctually was the reason for invading) just because Saddam was gone. Iraq doens't have a democratic tradition and removing Saddam won't change that. Democracy can only be built from the inside, not from the outside

[kenshi07]

whatever happens though we should support the solodiers, no matter what our beliefs are, they are why we can express our beliefs. especially martial artists should support the modern warriors, who continue on in the tradition of fighting for ones loyaltys and country. Just like the samurai, the government is like the shogun, and the soldier brings him honor. these guys deserve a salute, a pat on the back and a warm welcome home when the time comes.

[LNGUYEN]

I am not going to say it RIGHT or WRONG. but I say this invading Irag was a smart move on the one side point of view.

1. Invading Irag means we bring point of conflict abroad so US soil would be safer.

2. Irag is in the middle of hot zone surrounding by Iran, Russia, Saudi, Kuwaitt, etc. so if we can maintain our present, we can monitor the entire region.

3. 90% of Iraquis oil are untouch, it means vast of resources will be on friendlier side in the future. Let says Iraquis get to russian side and most of the oil will be under russian management, then what happen, we screw. Look at now, every time Saudi prince sneezes, we concern.

4. I don't understand why people only think about bad things while many schools, facilities, clean water system, sewers, roads have been built and nobody giving a rat ass about it.

5. Most of the killing right now is between Sunnis and shiite. They try to bring God into polictics and try to prove their God is bigger than other. I would say if they leave God at home, everything will be fine. sometimes I think the only way to stabilize middle East region is by Saddam's way, Iron fist.

[Maro]

The Sunni's and the Shi'ites have the same god. It's the lineage from Mohammed that is the issue.

As for the schools, hospitals etc. Yes they are there but nobody is in them. Especially the women's ones.

[boy next door]

I do not think the Turks would have allowed that.
Turkey has one of the largest military forces in the world, and as the British found out at Galipoli in WWI they do know how to fight.
Turkey, Iran, and Iraq all have a corner of their country which is ethnically Kurdi...

Well it's not really the army that counts in this situation. It is true that turkey has a very major military force. But the economy is now very fragile and Turkey wouldn't(can't) oppose any of it's allies in that conflict.

And the thing about being a soldier is you follow orders. Paul Tibbets is not regretting dropping a nuclear bomb on a japanese city. A soldiers purpose of existence is following orders actually. To protect your own people following orders is a noble thing(imo) but killing innocent people is not. However soldiers are not allowed to make decisions on what is right or wrong. I hope that no more soldiers or civilians die in this incident.

The goverment is to blame yes... And I have never thought that they invaded iraq for bringing democracy or to deal with a real threat. That is the propaganda which is hoped to be believed by an average american. They need resources and they will take it by force (international mugging) that is what this war is about. In the process Americans and Iraqians will die the government know it but they still do it. It is simple as that.

By the way america has more than enough nukes to destroy all human population in the world. And judging by their actions (to be optimistic just think about their actions in the last 10 years) they pose a greater threat to the whole world than the whole middle east does.

There is no point in blaming the americans for these though since they are not making the decisions. I personally find it stupid that they have elected Bush again but that was not the whole nations decision.

I think that's about it. Thanks for reading

[boy next door]

sorry double posting...