Sparring with the Master/Sensei

[Old Warrior]

I don't know what you may call it in Korean or Japanese, but sometimes the Master puts on his armor and calls out students, one at a time (every one sits and watches). First he has them do Yungyuk (kirakeshi). Then he allows himself to be attacked with whatever you have, without defending. The third part is when he fights back. Master Seong is so good that none of the black belts can score a clean point no matter how hard they try. My question is: what is a lowly beginner (6 months training) supposed to be thinking, let alone doing. Saturday was my first time experiencing this ordeal and it was "an experience". Later, he said to me through a translator "just try hard, show you are confident and keep attacking".

I understand the point (I think). Of course when I start an attack I get hit before I can get it off. Or, he moves ever so slightly so you miss and then he counters. Or, he does a waist attack as you go forward. Or, he blocks so you are tsuka to tsuka, to see what you have, in close. In sum, nothing works and he knows what you are thinking before you move. Once he just extended his arms so his juk do hit me in chest. I am 230 lbs. and he stopped me dead in my tracks (I was frozen for an instant). There was nothing at all I could do except keep trying till my energy ran out. Is that it? Just keep trying?

[JSchmidt]

" There was nothing at all I could do except keep trying till my energy ran out. Is that it? Just keep trying?"

Yups...and the better you get, the harder it gets.

Jakob

[Confound]

'Keep trying' is good advice, but don't do it blindly. Try to do the very best waza that you can. As one of my sempai says to me, in a patient, bored voice, "Use your head", though he always adds 'baka' at the end.

Yes, the sensei is incredibly skilled, and it seems like everything you do is pointless, because he can avoid and negate your waza. However, by watching what your sensei does in response to your waza, you can learn what others may do, or what you should do, in a similar situation.

Fro your previous posts, it would seem as though you don't do kendo thoughtlessly. That's a good start. Like Jakob says, it only gets harder as you get better, but it would be boring otherwise.

c

[kendomushi]

Keep trying, but as confound said, not blindly. That is the biggest mistake people make when learning kendo. They are so desperate to show their spirit and hope for a point that they end up flailing about like a net full of fish just pulled from the sea. Be confident, learn to look for openings and attack when it feels right to you. As you progress you will see that you attack less often and more successfully. But against your sensei, don't expect to score, just try to do your best. In my 10 years I've never scored a point against sensei he didn't intentionally give me.

[Old Warrior]

What should be my mindset (I know the goal is an empty mind, but I'm not there yet)? At this point there is only a few things I do OK and they are counterattacks. I have confidence and I'm not afraid, but I'm not a dummy. I know whatever I try isn't going to work. If I see an opening, it's because he wants me to see it. So, should I just run through the repetoire of everything we practice (in my best form) - as best as I can. That seems to be what I should be doing. As kendomushi said, after 10 years he isn't likely to score a point (on his Sensei). I would be an arrogant moron if I thought I could do anything except try and show that I have been paying attention and learning what he has been teaching me.

[kendomushi]

Fully commit yourself to every action. Or as my sensei has described it, throw away your life. That way you have nothing left to lose and can put everything you have into every attack. This too is something that only comes with time.
Actually Old Warrior, your fencing experience and age are most likely working against you here. You have an intellectual understanding of what you should be doing, but your body and spirit have not been trained long enough to translate that understanding into action. They will come together sooner or later. For now, just keep trying to put yourself fully into every attack and watch for those openings he gives you.

[misterkurukuru]

Old W, there are many things going on when a sensei or anyone is a motodachi. One of the things motodachi look for is a flaw form. Another thing is to watch for openings, eye movement, or any habit that gives away what you are going to do. What I get from your posts is that your “master” (sorry I don’t believe in kendo masters) is very skilled. He probably can anticipate what you are going to do just by watching your eyes. Do you know all of your habits that give away your movements? Knowing your own habits as well as your opponent’s is part of “using your head.” If you work on fixing your habits, I think that you can get at least 3 very clean cuts off of your sensei…but don’t expect to get those shots off of him every time. He is your sensei, and he has the experience and the knowledge to adapt quickly. Just fix your habits and work on being able to hit anything thing from the same form, uchi, swing, ect…

[misterkurukuru]

i like it when a sensei lets you hit them, and then they give you the " is that all you got?" look!I find that more senseis from the southern half of japan do this. i think that helps to keep egos down, but i guess it is not working on my big head right Buddies that want to beat me up!?!?!

[Old Warrior]

Great comments from all - thank you. The reality is that I tried so hard I have been icing my knees for 2 days and taking anti-inflammatories. I could hardly walk the evening after the 2 hour class. I really wanted to show that I have been paying attention, but my conditioning is no where near as good as it should be. And, he was giving that "is this all you got look" and when he fought back his "kiai tone" was almost a polite mocking. All I can say is - I am anxiously awaiting my next chance, it was something to "write home about"..

[nodachi]

Keep at it. You get a really great feeling when your sensei gives you the "approving nod" after seeing how much you have improved instead of the "is that all you've got look."

[misterkurukuru]

See Nodachi, i don't rant mindlessly all the time! please do not let any of my "fans" see my post on this thread. It would break thier hearts to see that i have something constructive to say! Thanks!

[Inouye02]

oh noooo , my eyes , my eyes ...something is wrong with my eyes ...

[JSchmidt]

"See Nodachi, i don't rant mindlessly all the time!"

Well, you surprised me :D

Jakob

[Confound]

Kurkuru posted something useful. The random acts of improbability counter has rolled over. Now the cycle begins again.

On a more serious note, we're all pleasantly surprised.

c

[Kendoka]

Confound wrote - Keep trying' is good advice, but don't do it blindly. Try to do the very best waza that you can.

Good advice, so just do what you can do, but above all, do it correctly, even if you may think that is slower than others.

And stop trying too hard.

Isn't there a poem or a koan something like - STUDENT - Sensei how long will it take? SENSEI - 10 years. STUDENT - What if I try twice as hard. SENSEI - 20 years!

[Old Warrior]

Kendoka

There is a great deal of truth to what you say. Last week, a class ended with a brief lecture from the Master (in Korean). The young lady to my left translated the jist for me. "When you come to class you should always try your best. There is never a reason to give less than your best". She then added "I don't think he was talking to you". But, all the kids are still better than me; although, hopefully, the gap is narrowing as time progresses. You don't get points for trying too hard. Showing up though, counts for a lot. And, the consistency of showing up regularly, over time, does have a definite benefit to your skill level.

[Inouye02]

OW , you have been doing kendo for 6 months ? of course the kids are better then you , i'm sure most of them have been doing it for at least 5 years or more, more then likely you will never be faster then them , you have to outhink them , frustrate them , just do your kendo but use your head, maybe practice on your defense, counter attacks, if they cant hit you , they start to do stupid things , targets will open up for you ...you are learning different waza's ? use them ..

[Inouye02]

can i get a christmas card ?

[Old Warrior]

Note to staff:

Add Inouye02 to Christmas list, send small fruit basket, use pleasant note - form 3d.

Your ideas are appreciated. My first class was Nov. 10, 2002. And you are correct that my attendance is probably 2X that of most students. I live 8 minutes from the dojang, and you can attend any of the classes you want and there are 3 a day, 3 days a week and a 2 hour open session on Sat. Since we are empty nesters, I can disappear for 2 hours and my wife doesn't care. It really helps ones kendo progress to be able to get too that many classes..

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
Kendoka

Showing up though, counts for a lot. And, the consistency of showing up regularly, over time, does have a definite benefit to your skill level.

Old Warrior:

You said it yourself. I would even say that nothing will improve you faster or more than practicing regularly. Even if you felt crappy in 2 of 3 of your weekly sessions, you would still be better off than practicing once a week and pushing too hard on that one day.

Master Seoung is a 7th dan. It's safe to say that until the end of your kendo career, he would still beat you as handily as today. Therefore, "beating him" in sparring is not and should never be your objective. Doing better and better kendo while sparring with him should be your objective instead.

I have been told this, and it's something I've come to believe: while sparring with your sensei, you should never try to "beat" him by employing small or fancy techinquies, things such as flicking, knocking, rolling his shinai off the center, or trying to faint him and mess up his timing. Doing something like those with your sensei will never improve your kendo (trust me, even if worked, it was only because sensei was dozing off). You should instead focus on doing straight foward kendo (big, with spirit and energy) while sparring with sensei. For, as paradoxically as it may appear, staright forward kendo is hard to learn and harder yet to master, so it follows that you should practice the hard stuff with your sensei. Little artful techniques might seem nice and effective, but ultimatly they are tricks and fit only to practice while sparring with your juniors and peers (skill-wise, not age-wise).

Again, while I congratulate you on your victories in bouts, you must not let those things blind you. If you want to beat them so much, you will always be tempted to resort to tricks and techniques. You will socre points, but you will never learn true kendo thusly, and ultimately, your kendo will not improve past a certain level.

All these you have heard before from others. Just remember, in kendo, progress is measured in years, not months. Being able to beat someone in 6 months is nothing; being able to progress steadily year after year is much harder and that's something only possible if you keep your focus on straight forward kendo (and practice regularly!).

There are many enthusiastic posters on this forum. A lot of them seem to be below dan. While I'm happy to see this enthusiam for kendo globally, I'll be even more ecstatic if I see these same people sill active in kendo 3 years from now.

[Chusan]

@OW:
what to do?
Well, two things might be useful.
First, do what you have learned during the lesson. If you did (example) kote-men for most of the session, try this at your sensei.
Second: always go for men. If you don`t know what to do, try men. No short, slapping handwrist-men, but a reeeaaaalllll big and swinging men with proper fumikomi.

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Well said Slidercrank !

I consider that if the sensei is trying to teach you something, then you owe him/her an obligation to practise it just as chusan describes

so if sensei tries to show you x then practise x - it dosnt matter whether it works or not - it is an example of the sempai kohai relationship at work

chusans advice is good - if in doubbt go for men ( or hold chudan)
cheers

[Old Warrior]

More great thoughts from all. Actually, all I was thinking was that I didn't want to dissappoint the Master. I had no expectation of anything actually succeeding. But, it's hard to do a good big muri (men) when there is nothing there to hit and you get hit twice on the way in. Similarly, it's hard to do kote men when the wrist isn't there to hit and your attempted wrist attack is met by a premptive cut to your head. At one point I went for my best muri and was met with the Master dropping down on one knee, cutting across my waist with one hand and then slowly rising and returning to chundan. It was beautiful to watch even though I was the recipient. Like I said, I can't wait till I get to face him again.

[Confound]

At times like this, and I can understand your position entirely OW, it is best to try and remember that all the things your sensei is doing are things that you will face again from other people as well. That said, think about it afterwards, and try to devise some way of fixing the problem. Maybe he hits kote (wrist) because you are not swinging up fast enough, or maybe there's an opening in your kamae.

The hardest things are often the most obvious and simple looking ones.

c