Shinai or Bokken?

[Takeda]

Hi all. I'm just wondering. As a kendoka, would it be better to train alone with a bokken or a shinai?

Since the ceiling of my house is not so high as to accomadate for shinai practice together with footwork, I usually train with a bokken instead.

I'm not too sure if this is a stupid topic for a thread but if it is, please tell me and I will delete it a.s.a.p.

[ne0r]

I prefer bokken practise as it's balanced out better than a shinai usually - I think. My sensei told me that with bokken you have a better feeling so suburi or
waza with bokken is better in my opinion. For suburi there are even specially
balanced suburito that are a little longer and heavier.
Furthermore I would not practise at home - It causes funny little stripes on my ceiling ;D XD

[Takeda]

I prefer bokken practise as it's balanced out better than a shinai usually - I think. My sensei told me that with bokken you have a better feeling so suburi or
waza with bokken is better in my opinion. For suburi there are even specially
balanced suburito that are a little longer and heavier.
Furthermore I would not practise at home - It causes funny little stripes on my ceiling ;D XD

Yeah. I feel the same way too. But can one still judge the maai the same as with a bokken? Of course, like you said, one can always get a longer, balanced version of it.

I don't worry about the ceiling. It's high enough for a bokken but too low for a shinai. :p Though there was this once when I trained just outside my apartment with a shinai and accidentally smashed the light to bits. :nervous: That really put me off practicing with shinai at home. :D

[Genya]

You should try frog hop suburi at home:smiley:
Or sit on the floor and train your arms only.

[ne0r]

Yeah, I do this sometimes, too, training only arms. And now I became better I even can do some suburi at home without worrying too much bout the ceiling and my room .. But I regularly smash my cupboard or stuff that's in my room ;D pretty funny ;D And I smashed one light with my shinai, too ;D That was fun !! XD XD XD

[Genya]

I believe everybody breaks something from their house with shinai/ bokken someday...
I also smashed one lamp from my ceiling.

[Danny Boy]

Using a bokken to "swing around pointlessly" and fool around with it is not a really respectful thing.
Bokkens are to be used for kata where they represent the real sword.

If you want to do suburi get 2 shinais or a suburito.

Thats what Sumi-sensei told us ;-).

[ne0r]

You're right, they represent real swords - in kata.
But according to the history a bokuto is primarily a sword for practise and that means for trying out techniques, for doing suburi and so on. And I don't think it is unrespectful. Whether you use a standart bokken or one that is balanced better doesn't really make a difference - except that with suburito you can practise better. At our dojo we use bokken for suburi. In my opinion it is senseless if you buy an extra shinai for suburi. These things are for contact with your opponent, that's why they are built the way they are. And generally fooling around with a bokuto isn't very respectful but taking that point too serious isn't right either - that's my opinion.

[Danny Boy]

I stand by my oppinion that bokuto is not for mindlessly swinging about and playing with. If you want to do suburi and you need something heavier use two shinais, suburito or whatever.
Kendo is becoming more hard-line, which i also agree with. This is not a sport but budo ;-). Correct etiquete and respect should be shown.

[ne0r]

I apologize - I haven't understood you the way you meant it ;D I agree withyour opinion, all but in one point : I don't think you should take it too serious. These things are for practise and they were always for practise. It's like a box glove, just for swords. Has anyone ever told you not to fool around with a box glove? I think you should respect etiquette at the dojo and show respect to your sensei, so you don't fool around when in the dojo. But outside the dojo a bokken is just a practise sword. And nothing more.

[Anime12478]

I stand by my oppinion that bokuto is not for mindlessly swinging about and playing with. If you want to do suburi and you need something heavier use two shinais, suburito or whatever.
Kendo is becoming more hard-line, which i also agree with. This is not a sport but budo ;-). Correct etiquete and respect should be shown.

I do agree that if you need something heavier, than it would be better to use a second shinai or a suburito, but the main issue here is that some people's ceilings aren't high enough to accomodate that. The bokken in smaller than the shinai so that can be accomodated to provided there is enough spacing between the walls.

What I don't really agree with is that doing suburi with a bokken is disrespectful. It is mainly used for Kata, but I don't see a problem with using it for other aspects of kendo, mainly suburi. Mindlessly swinging it around for fun is another matter...though it's more for safety reasons than respect.

[Pan-Chan]

I like to do suburi at home with all three--suburito, shinai, and bokken. But in the end it is really your own personal preferance I believe, since as long as you are doing the suburi right it doesn't matter what form of sword you use; you're still developing the same muscles and you are still pracicing your tenouchi and other important parts of your swordwork. So whatever you feel more comfortable using I wuld say.

As for the whole low ceilings thing, I usually do my suburi from seiza or sankyo, then do my footwork afterwards swordless, just using my arms.

[David]

Using a bokken to "swing around pointlessly" and fool around with it is not a really respectful thing.
Bokkens are to be used for kata where they represent the real sword.


I'm sorry, but since when is suburi the same thing as "swing around pointlessly"? If you're refering to the posts before that where people were talking about how they broke stuff with their swords. It's pretty obvious they were talking about accidents that occured during training.

When I'm practicing on my own outside of the dojo, be it suburi or waza, I prefer using my bokuto. Since it's shorter, there's less chance I'll hit it against the awning set up on the side of the house where I practice.

While I do agree with Danny Boy on the idea that you should be respectful to your bokuto, I think it's important to remember that the bokuto is first and foremost a tool used for practicing. This is even true when we use them for kata. Kata are really nothing more than a set of moves we practice to give us a better understanding of what real kenjutsu was like in the hopes that this understanding will help our kendo.

[Omnis]

Ever consider doing both?

[Takeda]

Hi all.

First of all, though I ain't closing this thread anytime soon, I'd like to thank everyone for their input and views on both the shinai and the bokken.

As for me personally, although I train with the bokken at home due to height restrictions, I still prefer to train with the bokken. Yes, I respect the shinai just as much, maintaining and oiling it occassionally, but the bokken is the closest (aside from a iaito or shinken) to a real sword. And since this is after all KENdo, I believe that in bogu, a shinai may be used. But out of it, a bokken should be the main weapon of choice, since it has the oval-shaped hilt and it is curved just like a real katana. Of course, one must realise that with a bokken, there is a slightly lower but significant range or distance compared to the shinai.

How about this? Lets have a poll as to see who prefers training with a bokken or with a shinai? Or both?

[Genya]

I usually do suburis with 2 shinais.

[ne0r]

Scuse me - how do suburi with 2 shinai work? I think it must be very hard to hold them simultaniously, and I don't think that you can practise your feel of the sword this way .. How are 2shinai-suburi like?

[nothing]

were you talking about shinai or bokken for suburi practice? I'm assuming fromt he other posts that you were.. I guess it depends on how much head room you have..

[David]

Scuse me - how do suburi with 2 shinai work? I think it must be very hard to hold them simultaniously, and I don't think that you can practise your feel of the sword this way .. How are 2shinai-suburi like?

You take the tsuba off the shinai, then just hold them together. It's a little awkward at first, but it's not that hard to do. It's mainly for building upper body strength. You can still more or less do tenouchi with two shinai, but it's obviosly better to practice that with a single sword.

[Klasnikov]

This will sound stupid but it works a charm. I use a hand-'n-half sword still in it's scabard. Weighs about 2.5kilo's. Builds strength like nothing I know.
Using two shinai was too akward.
I'm going to get grilled for saying this but still it's very effective for me.
Builds strength and it forces me to gain more stamina.

I can go for quite a bit without tiring at all.

[h2o]

For kendo-suburi: Shinai.
For iaido-suburi: Bokken or iaito

I am considering getting myself a suburito though...

[MiChuhSuh]

Bbbbbooooooookkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnn n!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arrrrrr Me Maties!!!

[Genya]

Sometimes at camps we do suburis like jogeburi and nanameburi with bokken.
I heard that men, kote, do, hayasuburi and all suburis that are hits, should be done only with shinai. Jogeburi and nanameburi are not like men, kote and do. They are more like what are used in Iaido.

[ScottUK]

I am considering getting myself a suburito though...Go order a Tanren Bo from here:

http://ejmas.com/ejmasequip.htm

Then try this:

http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_taylor_1200.htm

[ne0r]

lol... That's all I can say... just lol...

[ScottUK]

LOL? I am being serious.

[Takeda]

LOL? I am being serious.

Yeah. Don't seem that funny to me either. But I guess it's name does have meaning, about "spiritual training". I don't think I'd have the guts to practice with such a massive club-like bokuto. But thanks for the links. Never thought there were things such as that.

[ne0r]

That wasn't supposed to be offensive. But that thingy seems quite funny xD
And the guy who shows its use, too. I don't really think this tanren bo is a good choice for a kendoka. You don't need superman muscles for kendo, you just need a lot of practise. When practising with a usual bokuto/shinai your arms are going to become strong enough for kendo, I think.

[Po5i]

The results tells the truth, we need both of them, one for each ocassion

[ScottUK]

That wasn't supposed to be offensive. But that thingy seems quite funny xD
And the guy who shows its use, too. I don't really think this tanren bo is a good choice for a kendoka. You don't need superman muscles for kendo, you just need a lot of practise. When practising with a usual bokuto/shinai your arms are going to become strong enough for kendo, I think.The guy in the photos is Kim Taylor. He is a senior rank in iai and knows what he is talking about.

Tanrenbo work isn't about building muscles, its about teaching muscle memory. Go practice with suburito and then quickly swap to shinai - watch what happens...

[MiChuhSuh]

Okay this is gonna sound retarded, and I know traditionalists are might see this as somewhat well, wrongly untraditional, but I remember one time at school I just noticed the teacher's stool which was a quality wooden stool could be held like a bokken and was very heavy (hard to explain without a pic) but no one was there so for a while I just messed around with it as a suburito-type thing, I got home and realized my regular bokken felt like air after that.

Basically bottom line, I see nothing wrong with that massive "club" type thing as a training aid.

[Kitsune]

Both, bokken is good for kendo katas and shinai is good for practice.:cool2:

[T.Nilges]

My feelings are that bokken should not be used for suburi as the aspects of the bokken are quite different than that of a shinai. Bokken often have a balance closer to that of a real sword (more towards the handle) resulting a different ratio of muscle use. When switching back to a shinai you may encounter issues with your form as a result. It is better to do your suburi with a shinai if you can, though a bokken would be a resonable substitute if you have space issues.

[MiChuhSuh]

My feelings are that bokken should not be used for suburi as the aspects of the bokken are quite different than that of a shinai. Bokken often have a balance closer to that of a real sword (more towards the handle) resulting a different ratio of muscle use. When switching back to a shinai you may encounter issues with your form as a result. It is better to do your suburi with a shinai if you can, though a bokken would be a resonable substitute if you have space issues.

lol that is the exact reason I prefer a bokken to a shinai!

I guess we all have different ideas coming from different purposes though.

[Andou]

If any of you have seen that documentary on Eiga Naoki, who is in my opinion, a great kendoka of remarkable skill, he was doing men-uchi suburi with a bokuto at the very end of the program.

Not sure if that will convert any of you, but I'm just saying. I do suburi with a shinai, but I don't really have a problem with anyone who does it with a bokken and perhaps will try it once to see the difference in weight and balance.

[T.Nilges]

I still think suburi with a shinai is better, but I'm not about to go up to another kendoka and tell them to stop using a bokuto. Also I believe this part of the disscussion has hit a loop, which I am only helping to propagate.

[sainueng]

I personally feel there are things to be learned from doing suburi w/ a bokken. The oval grip of the bokken helped my tenouchi, and the curvature of the blade helped my swing and extension. However, I mostly do my suburi w/ a shinai or suburito and try to carry over the learnings I gained from doing suburi w/ a bokken.

[ScottUK]

Shinken is the only way to go... :)

No seriously, stop talking and start doing... it makes no difference whether you use shinai or bokuto. Just talking about it on the internet doesn't help your technique/stamina etc though.

Well said Mr Nilges.

[T.Nilges]

Shinken is the only way to go... :)

No seriously, stop talking and start doing... it makes no difference whether you use shinai or bokuto. Just talking about it on the internet doesn't help your technique/stamina etc though.

Well said Mr Nilges.

Are you refering to my statement about the cyclical nature that has developed. Or something else?

Either way, I concur, return to training.

[ScottUK]

Are you refering to my statement about the cyclical nature that has developed.Yep. That one. :)

[Rob1981]

I personally prefer the bokken to a shinai. I prefer the way it balances and moves through the air.

[Masahiro]

what we are doing is called "ken"do, not "shinai"-do! aside from which instrument is better for suburi, i think it's entirely up to your own preference. When you are 8 minutes into a match (encho), does it really matter if it's bokken or a shinai that you usually train with? Or is it that heart and the overall understanding of techniques that matters?

[pgsmith]

what we are doing is called "ken"do, not "shinai"-do!
What you all are doing (or should be doing) is exactly what your instructor tells you to do. If you haven't asked your sensei whether you should be using shinai or bokken or suburito or tanrenbo for suburi, you don't know what you should be using. Speculation and argument are all silly unless you've got a couple of decades worth of experience with which to form your opinions. If not, you should be doing what you're told.

So there! :)

I wonder if that will end the cycle?

[Shotojin]

I like to do suburi with my bokken. First if all I train outside behind my apartment, usually very late or very early, so height really isn't a restricition. I like to use my bokken because of the increased difficulty. I do train with my shinai occassionally and even with my shinken once in a while.

The biggest reason I enjoy training with bokken is that I am able to move easily from suburi to iaido - since I am lucky enough to practice a koryu that includes both components in it's curicula. I really prefer to use the shinken, but have found that it quickly depletes my supply of choji, and, practicing outside in an apartment complex, the shinken draws too much attention. The poor security guard didn't know what to think for the first few weeks, lol.

However, all three have their place - shinai, bokken, and shinken. All are employed in the training hall, but my bokken is definitely my favorite.

[suburi_A]

I prefer a bokken, they're more realistically shaped to represent a katana and are pretty effective as weapons (not saying that a shinai isn't a weapon too). I used to practice with my bokken in my bedroom, but I stopped because one day I was practicing on a pillow cushion that was directly in front of my window. I didn't measure my distance acurately enough and ended up crushing that stone threshold thingy that's right under the actual window.:ermm:

[Newbie]

Sometimes my asthma or back are too bad for kendo and I do jodo or iaido instead but I warm up with the kendoka. My kendo sensei told me to do suburi with my bokken on these occassions.

[rottunpunk]

shinai make a good cracking sound, but bokken hurt more.
they both have their advantages :D
:p