seiza

[Alison2805]

I was told by a Japanese friend that its rude for women to sit cross-legged in a dojo, and instead they can kneel like in seiza, but tuck their legs to one side instead of directly beneath you. Ive been sitting like that when seiza gets too uncomfortable (like when we are all sitting around after training listening to the sensei).

Has anyone else heard of this? Was my friend right? I dont want to pass this sort of info onto any one else if its rubbish.

[runsyi]

I don't know about that position. We usually sit in seiza until a sensei directs otherwise. If they say it's okay to get out of seiza, then we sit cross-legged but make sure that our feet are covered by our hakama.

I've sat in seiza so long that once I actually fell back after standing because my feet were so numb that when I thought I was standing on my toes I wasn't, and my foot bent the wrong way. Couple of techniques that I've found work are massaging the blood back into your feet before you try standing and occasionally tensing your quads to shift the weight.

[ShinKenshi]

As this is in the women's forum, I feel slightly out of place by posting but I feel I might be able to shed a little bit of light on this. Traditionally, when women wore kimono, they would sit in seiza for as long as possible and, in order to get more comfrotable, would shift and have their legs tucked to one side. Since they were wearing kimono, it was impossible for them to sit in any other position. This idea is carried over to kendo and even though you're wearing hakama. Women in my dojo tend to stay in seiza for as long as they can and don't shift because we're rarely in seiza for more than a few minutes. The rare times we are in seiza for longer, it is expected that the women get comfortable by tucking their legs to one side.

Now that I've finished posting, feel free to blast me for posting here since I'm a guy :).

[Pan-Chan]

I've never heard of any differing forms of ettiquete in the dojo for women, but I'm also not in Japan. But it isn't considered proper for the kenshi in the dojo I practice at to sit cross legged during the begining and ending rei or practice. If the person in uncomfortable sitting seiza then may sitting kneeling up, and if that doesn't help they may stand.

Sitting with legs crossed is okay during demonstrations and things of that sort, though.

[Alison2805]

ShinKenshi - feel free to post stuff dude!! You described exactly what I was talking about, shift my legs to the side when Im in seiza for ages, now at least I know why japanese women did it! I find it heaps more comfy than sitting cross legged anyway.

[yoda-waza]

ShinKenshi - feel free to post stuff dude!! You described exactly what I was talking about, shift my legs to the side when Im in seiza for ages, now at least I know why japanese women did it! I find it heaps more comfy than sitting cross legged anyway.
..not to mention more elegant. Legs akimbo is typical for us male slobs.

[ahmed61086]

Its known that women have a much higher threshold for pain than men. See, men have an excuse to sit crosslegged. ;)

[Solinde]

Its known that women have a much higher threshold for pain than men. See, men have an excuse to sit crosslegged. ;)

Actually, from what I've heard women actually have a lower pain threshold than men. We're just better at enduring it. :wink:

[Commander]

In my dojo its seiza usually but when it comes to demonstrations that last for quite a while, we're allowed to sit which ever way makes us feel most comfortable.

[mingshi]

When a hachidan sensei visits and gives lectures, usually it is HIM who asks people to sit cross-legged first...

Not remembering this clearly, but some research says sitting in seiza for too long will result in poor blood circulation etc, and can hinder the grow of your legs (being short)... or was it getting bow-legged? But that maybe due to a bad posture to start with (like not having your back straight).

[Michiyo Akimoto]

Generally, in circles of Japanese society who still look at certain social actions as indications of a 'proper' upbringing, It's generally considered improper for women to sit cross legged at all in most settings.
But then again, most of us unwashed slobs are not part of the world's elite clique, so phooey on that, says I!

[LNGUYEN]

Even for me a guy, I have to say this: Japanese society is very sexist. Many of them travel abroad and open up to more like today. For me, whatever is good, I learn and whatever is not, I don't. We don't have to follow this and that to the strict point. Just relax. When you are comfy, you can get more concentration and don't have to think only about your numbness.

[samurai999]

Even for me a guy, I have to say this: Japanese society is very sexist. Many of them travel abroad and open up to more like today. For me, whatever is good, I learn and whatever is not, I don't. We don't have to follow this and that to the strict point. Just relax. When you are comfy, you can get more concentration and don't have to think only about your numbness.

Numbness is fine, but I can't get up afterwards to keiko if they start with a long winded lectue at the beginning.

Tim

[ahmed61086]

Actually, from what I've heard women actually have a lower pain threshold than men. We're just better at enduring it. :wink:

Thats what I meant, I guess I used the wrong words, you made me feel realy stupid.

[Cool Cat]

I've had times where my feet have fallen asleep and have been unable to stand after a long lecture. Once my Japanese Sensei sent over some students to help get the blood back into my feet. I felt quite useless...

He suggested moving back onto your toes for a while to help the blood circulate. It works okay for me so maybe give it a try.

Cheers

[Alison2805]

anything that adds a trace of elegance to my kendo sounds like a great idea to me. I already have bad posture when I sit in seiza if Im not thinking about it, but its heaps worse if I sit crosslegged. I end up using the top of my do to prop me up LOL. I think Ill stick with tucking my legs to the side.

[Naginatagirl]

okay well...I really haven't faced much discrimination or seperation at practice except the occational girls groups for drills once every so often. When watching something everyone sits the same way, regardless of gender. And I think that's the way I'll keep sitting.

[Alison2805]

I havent heard any discrimination or anything to do with the way females sit in kendo at all. One of my firends simply made the comment about it when I was in Japan becasue I would sit cross-legged all the time at dinner and I got funny looks from his mum.. so I asked what the etiquite was for a dojo.

[Solinde]

Thats what I meant, I guess I used the wrong words, you made me feel realy stupid.

Sorry about that. :redface:

[Naginatagirl]

I havent heard any discrimination or anything to do with the way females sit in kendo at all.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything, just meant to comment on my experiences.

[Michiyo Akimoto]

Thats what I meant, I guess I used the wrong words, you made me feel realy stupid.

I have heard the opposite.
An example: Childbirth.
Somehow I don't think a man generally would withstand very well the passing of a 12lb bowling ball.
:eek:

I think perhaps the whole "Women have a lower threshold of pain" thing may be culturally installed, and it's really an individual thing.
In any event, any woman who can put up with me for more than a day needs a pain threshold (at least mentally) beyond that of Prometheus.

[ahmed61086]

They have actually done tests/competition to prove how women can just endure much longer than men when it comes to pain. The women just kept making the men look bad.

[Kitsune]

Actually, from what I've heard women actually have a lower pain threshold than men. We're just better at enduring it. :wink:

No, we actully have alot more pain threshold than men, I can tell you they could not bear the birth pain or the period pain... those pains are like the worst punch on the noble areas multiplied for 1000 and I don't tend to say that we're stonger than men, I just say we can bear more pain than men and we can.

About seiza, I can bear almost an hour, but, when I fell tired of being like that I shift and put my legs on one side. It's comfy at leat for me and it looks good.

[h2o]

No, we actully have alot more pain threshold than men
But pain threshold and enduring pain are not the same things. The threshold tells you how much you can take before it hurts, and pain endurance is how good you are at handling the pain. One can have a high pain threshold but a low pain endurace, which means you can take quite a heavy blow until it hurts, but you won't stand it for long.

[Lone Kitten]

I was told by a Japanese friend that its rude for women to sit cross-legged in a dojo, and instead they can kneel like in seiza, but tuck their legs to one side instead of directly beneath you. Ive been sitting like that when seiza gets too uncomfortable (like when we are all sitting around after training listening to the sensei).

Has anyone else heard of this? Was my friend right? I dont want to pass this sort of info onto any one else if its rubbish.

may i throw my two cents in here?

when i was livin in japan i was told is was rude full stop for a woman to sit cross legged anywhere - my host mum used to tell me off for it all the time! It's to do with kimono wearing, but it's also "unladylike" to sit cross legged as you tend to have your legs akimbo anyway!

[Paburo]

may i throw my two cents in here?

when i was livin in japan i was told is was rude full stop for a woman to sit cross legged anywhere - my host mum used to tell me off for it all the time! It's to do with kimono wearing, but it's also "unladylike" to sit cross legged as you tend to have your legs akimbo anyway!

it might be rude in japan, but outside japan i've never seen a visiting japanese sensei tell a western girl off for doing it. and a lot of them do sit crosslegged on seminars :D

but you should follow your sensei's advice, since each dojo might have it's own etiquette rules....

and sorry btw, i'm another (non-girl)boy hijacking this thread... :bandit: cowabungaaaaa

[Lone Kitten]

i agree with u there paburo... doing as sensei says is prob the best way - although i know mine would wallop me for doing anything other than seiza in the dojo unless i was injured in the leg area.

this isn't hijacking chuck - fire away!