kendo and violence

[smith]

This forum hasn't seen any threads for a while so I thought I'd pose a hypothetical.

Imagine you are teaching a childrens' kendo class.

A prospective parent asks you about kendo and its history. She says: "That's all very well, but when all is said and done, kendo comes from warfare and killing. How do I know that it won't promote aggression and an admiration for war in my child? How can it do otherwise?"

What do you say?

[pelleas]

My first question to the parent would be whose choice was it to look at Kendo as an activity for the child. Was it a choice made by the parent or by the child, this may prove very insightful with respect to the question

[kendomushi]

If that is the case, the parent must be directly to immediately get rid of microwave oven, stop seeing a doctor when sick, and forbid the child from participating in any sporting activity.
Many of the modern comforts we have today were developed from military applications, how can they not promote violence if they were meant for a military purpose?
How can any sport not promote violence since the goal is the same as in war, to win?
Perhaps watching a few classes and observing the respect and discipline kendoka have for eachother and others would help enlighten the parent?

[aru-ma]

Originally posted by kendomushi

Many of the modern comforts we have today were developed from military applications, how can they not promote violence if they were meant for a military purpose?


I like to wear cargo pants, does that make me militaristic?:D although I dont get how they come up with vacum cleaner from a military appliance:confused:
that aside, isnt most sporting activity is derived from combat use one way or another or have military components in it? although you can argue that some are not as obvious as others (base ball, basket ball, etc.)

[JSchmidt]

Actually, I tend to look at it the other way around:
By being used to confrontation, you learn how to deal with it and often be able to defuse the situation before anything violent occurs. (Or as my TKD teacher told me many years ago: best selfdefence?: 100 meter sprint!).
You could argue that kendo itself is violent, but the training takes place under very strict rules, but in terms of where you are hitting and the etiquette around it, which also teaches kids that there's a time and a place for it. Further more, it gives them a place to get rid of any aggression they might have, in a controlled enviroment.
Granted, there will always be bad apples (and bad apples amongst the teachers), that will take the wrong thing out of any martial art, but that should be the parents job to see and prevent that.

Jakob

[berghaan]

Even though it was with naginata I think it is simular but..
A sensei once told me to use aggression not violence.
My own sensei says "you learn to control the beast" ;)

I think sports like this that are derived from war can teach you
how not to become what the parent feares can happen to
her child.

[ben]

kendo mushi: I see your point, but it's drawing a pretty long bow to suggest using a microwave oven can be confused with warlike behaviour. I think smith's point is not that kendo is a byproduct of war, but that it is in fact, training for war. The fact that it is a heavily modified form of training for warfare several hundred years old is in this case besides the point. It seems to me that the underlying implication of the mother's question is this: "I want to bring my child up in a peaceful society. Surely in order to do that we should be eradicating the causes of war, not perpetuating them?"

I teach a kids' class, and it's very confronting to me to have to describe to seven year olds how you are supposed to cut, not hit, your opponent's head. That this is a "real sword". You can see their faces twist in knots as they vividly imagine what you are describing and you wonder just how much is too much to tell them.

I agree that most sports have war-like beginnings and that there is some analogy to be found between all kinds of victory and war (Nietschze's "will to power" perhaps?). But you're making this an either/or equation, IOW if we can't have kendo then we can't have any of these other things.

As I see it, victory is the preoccupation of politicians. Survival is the main concern of soldiers. I haven't yet worked out my reply to the woman.

b

[JSchmidt]

"I haven't yet worked out my reply to the woman."
Ah..that's the easy one: "Yes, dear". (Regardless of whether you agree or not...there is no choice)

Jakob

[Jerry Wellbrock]

When I was growing up there was a common saying about sportsmanship. "It's not whether you win or loose but how you play the game." Sports were suppose to make "men of boys" and prepare us for life. Nothing seems further from the truth anymore except traditional martial arts. I see this as much or more in kendo than any other "sport" or martial art I know. It seems that winning is the only thing that matters anymore and at any cost. Athletics, coaches, parents and fans are all fanatic and at times violent when it comes to winning. Think of your last promotion test. At least what I am constantly told it that it is not whether you win your match or not but "How you play the game!" Share this with the parents that we are learning great control over out bodies and emotions and help them to understand that there is as much or more to learn from not winning as there is from winning and they may see kendo in a different light than just something that comes from a militaristic past!:old_man:

[kendomushi]

Ben,

I cite the microwave because it is a most common appliance that is a direct biproduct of a military R&D program involving radar technology. It was never intended to cook food, it was intended to make it easier to kill the enemy.
Here is a link to the history of the microwave for those of you who, like me, really have no life to speak of.
http://www.gallawa.com/microtech/history.html

:)

[Confound]

What has been said about modern sports having lost the spirit of 'sportsmanship' is very true. If I had the misfortune to be a parent in this day and age, no child of mine would ever be joining a competitive sports team. Perhaps that seems like ablanket statement, but I can't stand the phrase 'There is no I in team'. Add that to the 'win or be bullied by everyone for months afterwards' mentality I've seen on junior high and high school sports teams, both in Japan and Canada, and it's hardly an environment to which anyone should be subjected.

The best part about budo, and the reason it could be very beneficial for children, is that it teaches discipline and self-restraint, in a relatively relaxed atmosphere. With some obvious exceptions, most of the classes for children that I've helped with were very encouragnig an accepting. There was none of teh harsh criticism and screaming that I've seen in little league baseball teams. The parents, even at taikais, were friendly, no nasty looks, no covert insults.

If I had to recommend a sport to a parent who wants their child to learn about fair play, honesty and civility to other human benigs, I'd have to recommend kendo, or judo, or some other martial art. (as much as I detest calling kendo a sport.) Though the attitude of senseis in a dojo can make a huge difference, I'd wager that the average kendo dojo is a muc more pleasant place to be than the average little league hockey team.

confound

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Confound
If I had the misfortune to be a parent in this day and age, no child of mine would ever be joining a competitive sports team.
I'm glad you speak from such a knowledgable point of view, having all those kids. In fact, team sports are a great thing for kids, you just have to pick the right sport and be involved so that you know what's going on. Both my kids have been playing soccer for the last few years. Mind you they're not old enough to be in the tiered league yet, so maybe things will change. But the coaches have been all good people, if varying in their skill levels, and the experience overwhelmingly positive. I'd say recreational soccer is a much better outlet for a 5 year olds' energy than kendo. I frankly don't want any 5 year olds in my classes, and most of the 8 year olds we get aren't ready yet either.

[Confound]

Mr. Gendzwill,

I have many young cousins, who are actively involved in sports teams. Add that to working in a junior high school, and I've seen enough sports teams to turn me off on the whole prospect. I took judo as a 10 year old, and would have enjoyed it thoroughly if it hadn't ended up being cancelled.

c

[Old Warrior]

From my perspective, the most important group sports lessons are those that related to getting along with others, accepting the responsibility to show up at a specified time and place, accepting the authority of coaches/umpires/referees and learning to subjugate your own desires for a larger group goal. These are very important for children. I would never have allowed participation in something I perceived as unreasonably dangerous or improperly supervised.

I prefer individual sports because it stresses self motivation and the acceptance of responsibility for individual performance. But, there are very important life lessons to be learned from group activities. However, I, for one, never enjoyed group activities as there was too much lag between the times when you actually got to perform. It's strictly a personal preference. Each has its place in a child's development into adulthood.

[JSchmidt]

Confound hates everything to do with sport (despite never having done any), so it's completly pointless (as usual) to argue with her.

Jakob

[Chusan]

back to the topic:
it might be a good idea, telling the worried parents that ANY sports used to be some kind of military exercise in earlier times, especially the so-called ´olympic sports`.

[blur]

I think, in all honesty, that you're more likely to glorify something when watching from the sidelines. It's the actual doing that tends to stop the glorification.

In Kendo terms, watching Kendoka "going at it" and then going home and watching some Asian movies with heaps of swordplay or, yep, even the Star Wars films - you're 1000 times more likely to glorify it than when you're actually in the middle yourself, trying to remember everything you've been taught while some other guy is swinging his shinai at your head.

It's when you're out there and realise that this is just for fun, compared to the roots of the sport, that I think many of us realise we wouldn't have lasted five seconds a few hundred years ago in Japan and we give thanks that we can learn from that era in a sport which is relatively safe and fun to do.

But, of course, there is always going to be some kid who's basically a fruitloop no matter what martial art you let him take up, so good advice like this (and posted elsewhere in the thread), can sometimes be for nothing anyway...