Striking big guys?

[Commander]

Hi Ladies and of course Gentlemen.

I wonder if you could all give me some handy tips, i am about 5'3 and most of the guys at my dojo are all about 6'.

I find big guys intimidating when i have to do jigeiko with them. I have a problem hitting their men and usually they give me a good battering.

Do you guys have the same problem? If so how do you overcome it?

Cheers

Sarah

[WolfofMibu]

well i am a pretty big guy myself ( 6"2) and if they seem aggressive just pump up on your counterattacks. if they are bigger you may also be able to get to their do easier.

[Commander]

What would you say is a good counter attack?

[Genya]

I´m not the tallest guy and I find also difficult to do jigeiko with big guys. I usually go for kote, debana kote or do because men is almost impossible to do.
It also depends on a person. If both are hitting men at the same time, I´m the one who gets hurt. If partner isn´t doing anything maybe then it is easier to get men. For me showing good zanshin is hard, because I always go straight and crash on them (and almost fall on the floor.)

[Omnis]

I'm 6'4, but, I'd probably say to pressure the inside while watching out for a tsuki thrust or a men strike. Theoretically, a taller person will want to stay out of your reach while keeping you in theirs. If you can get them to lose center while they're adjusting their distance, that would probably be a good opportunity.

Then again, I have no true experience in the matter, so don't entirely take my word for it. Just trying to help... Good luck!

[WolfofMibu]

kaeshi waza is a very good counter attack. suriage block is also very affective

[Commander]

Thanks for the tips!

[tantadi]

Hitting the futon is necessary if you want to score. The mengane is a no score. You have to use a lot of wrist movement to make that happen, but I've seen very small persons do it.

To make counters work, you have to have a lot of pressure. You have to want to get them. And be ready.

I'm 5'6 and I wished I could get suriage or kaeshi to work properly. But nuki works for me, kote nuki men, and men nuki men. The latter especially against those who really lean in and overcommitt themselves. I also like kote- do. Very small step on the do, if much step forward at all. Small kote and fast do..

I think you should continue to try to cut men. It is not impossible. Many women do debana kote and nuki do. Guys know that.

[Ignatz]

I think you should continue to try to cut men. It is not impossible.
All of the girls in our club can hit me men and I'm 6'3"
Don't wory about counter attacks until your teacher specifically shows you. At your level your emphasis should be men, kote and maybe do (but not much).
You have to resign yourself to the fact that kendo takes a long time to master and there is nothing good that can come out of skipping over fundamentals.

[Anime12478]

I've been in this position lots of times. In fact, the only people I had to go against were taller than me at one time. It has since changed as there are people the same size as me now.

The way I was told to hit was to reach as far as I possibly could. Not to the point of leaning forward but using your arms to get as much distance as possible. In turn, it would be easier to aim a little higher to hit men correctly.

[Pan-Chan]

Because you are smaller than your opponents you can cut from a closer distance. If you get into your issoku-itto-no-mai, they will be too close, and when they try to strike you you can do debana kote, nuki-do, kaeshi-do, etc.

Something that is often told to students at the dojo I go to is that jigeiko is an opportunity to learn how to use your techniques in actual fights, it's not shiai. So don't worry about getting hit, just watch your opponent and try to do your kendo.

...Unless you're fighting your sensei or sempai. In that case just try to get a chance to strike.

But back to your topic. Just remember that being small has its advantages too, you just need to find how you can use them.

[nodachi]

We worked on a fun technique the other night. First we did what sensei called maki kote. I forget if it is also called ura or omote (those always confuse me), but you go under your opponents shinai to get kote. He emphasized small technique and good use of wrists. Then from there we did a difficult but neat drill. You appear to do maki kote, go under and pressure their kote, but then you come back up and hit their men as they try to defend their kote. Really hard to do, but a really cool technique.

The overall point I am making is you have to open their men. One good way to do it is to pressure their kote. Big people know short people want to hit kote because it is easier. So use that to pressure them to protect their kote and open up the road to their men. The above technique isn't the only way, but it is one example of the overall concept that I am suggesting. Then you can really confuse them too because if they don't protect their kote thinking it is another trick then you can still go for kote. Keep them guessing and create lots of doubt in their minds.

[tantadi]

Maki kote men:You swing under from the right to the left, as you would do a small kote from the underside, and then lift up?

Sometimes I seem to get my shinai stuck under the guys shinai, and then I'm in trouble..their kamae often feels so much stronger, I find it difficult to get them out of the way...I'd like to get uchiotoshi and harai to work, but..

At the same time I've noticed that the real good ones often seem softer in their kamae and techinques, I guess it boils down to precision and correct execution.

[tantadi]

Another waza, very agressive one is to (fake a) tsuki and go for men. I don't know the successrate of this one, I haven't seen it much in keiko or shiai.

[Commander]

All of the girls in our club can hit me men and I'm 6'3"
Don't wory about counter attacks until your teacher specifically shows you. At your level your emphasis should be men, kote and maybe do (but not much).
You have to resign yourself to the fact that kendo takes a long time to master and there is nothing good that can come out of skipping over fundamentals.

How long did it take you before you were up to a good standard? I've been doing kendo for nearly a year and a half and im still frustrated. And also due to the fact that i'm not regularly attending practice as my men has become too painful to wear, leaving a red mark on my throat. I am going to attend some classes to just watch but im going to wait until my new men is here before i'll take part. Its not that, its just i dont want an injuries.

[Budo Angel]

How long did it take you before you were up to a good standard? I've been doing kendo for nearly a year and a half and im still frustrated.

Keep battling Commander. I did kendo for 12 yrs, and at 5' 1" still had massive problems hitting men especially 6 foot plus, no allowances are made - only patient opponents help, you must find your own technique that works... :down:

Only when I bumped into a guy who was 6' 8" did I ask him to please beat every guy up 6' or smaller so they knew what it felt like to be hit by someone a foot taller than them, and know how difficult it is to hit that magic men cut (the most fundamental in Kendo). Otherwise you must perfect your timing, waza, and just be strong in spirit to make up for it. Don't give up even if the whole wide world seems taller/bigger than you. And at the end of the day no matter how much advice you recieve, its down to you. Good luck again.:dead: oh and get down to Mumeishi 3s when a particular Japanese sensei Saito is in town, he's 4 foot and abit (if that) and NO ONE hits his men (he is of course 7th dan) but that aside, no one hits his men. Hope for the shorties yet... :tongue:

[Commander]

Keep battling Commander. I did kendo for 12 yrs, and at 5' 1" still had massive problems hitting men especially 6 foot plus, no allowances are made - only patient opponents help, you must find your own technique that works... :down:

Only when I bumped into a guy who was 6' 8" did I ask him to please beat every guy up 6' or smaller so they knew what it felt like to be hit by someone a foot taller than them, and know how difficult it is to hit that magic men cut (the most fundamental in Kendo). Otherwise you must perfect your timing, waza, and just be strong in spirit to make up for it. Don't give up even if the whole wide world seems taller/bigger than you. And at the end of the day no matter how much advice you recieve, its down to you. Good luck again.:dead: oh and get down to Mumeishi 3s when a particular Japanese sensei Saito is in town, he's 4 foot and abit (if that) and NO ONE hits his men (he is of course 7th dan) but that aside, no one hits his men. Hope for the shorties yet... :tongue:

Heh, thanks Budo Angel, i shall keep battling, just when i get my new men. Im getting withdrawl symptoms! :down:

[Alison2805]

I was talking to my sensei about this on the weekend. He pointed out that against a taller person you have one big advantage - they will go for your men almost EVERY TIME!!! I thought about it and I really cant remember the last time someone went for my kote, EVERYONE goes for men on me.

He also pointed out that I will have to get more aggressive and really take it up to my opponent, attacking first in every fight, because thats what it will take to put someone bigger off. Thats easier said than done!! I suck at that. I tend to be very defensive and go for debana cuts because Im too slow and I KNOW Im about to get smashed. Its very hard for me to just go for a men cut, rather than waiting for the other guy to make the first move. It feels like suicide. Unfortunately their first move is always a men, and currently I find it hard to block it in time.

Something for me to work on. Bloody frustrating. Just when something clicks, something else appears to be glaringly shite. I spose that means Im progressing, right? Right??? :P

[Ignatz]

How long did it take you before you were up to a good standard?
Ha, ha, ha. The short answer is "forever". Kendo is a life long endeavor, it will frustrate the hell out you and if you are looking for instant gratification, you are in the wrong place.
I have to tell you that if you don't accept that or understand that you can get the most expensive custom made men ever made and it won't help one bit.

If your men is so uncomfortable then you should go to classes and be part of warm ups and suburi and haya suburi and whatever you can do without men but not just sit and watch unless you have some physical disability that makes it impossible to participate.

No excuses.

[Koki]

Usually people get scared when they face a big opponent; and when you are scared, you can't reach!

1) Don't be scared... go forward and try to get close to him... usually big guys hate fighting from chikama!

2) His kote and do would be the prime targets...however... hit men once in a while to keep him on edge.

3) You could also use seigan no kamae like you are fighting again jodan.

[Commander]

Ha, ha, ha. The short answer is "forever". Kendo is a life long endeavor, it will frustrate the hell out you and if you are looking for instant gratification, you are in the wrong place.
I have to tell you that if you don't accept that or understand that you can get the most expensive custom made men ever made and it won't help one bit.

If your men is so uncomfortable then you should go to classes and be part of warm ups and suburi and haya suburi and whatever you can do without men but not just sit and watch unless you have some physical disability that makes it impossible to participate.

No excuses.

Hi, yeah if you read back i told you i was going to spectate, you can learn alot from that too.

Cheers

[Genya]

Maybe try to get them hit kote or do. Then men should be pretty easy target. Making someone hit where you want is difficult. But it might work in this situation. Keep training.
And when they hit men you have a good chance to train shikake or oji-waza.

[Ignatz]

Hi, yeah if you read back i told you i was going to spectate, you can learn alot from that too.
You have no physical reason why you can't participate in the beginners, non bogu, portion of class. You are not good enough that you would not benefit from that (I don't know anyone who is).
Spectating (sic) sounds like slacking to me.

[Commander]

You have no physical reason why you can't participate in the beginners, non bogu, portion of class. You are not good enough that you would not benefit from that (I don't know anyone who is).
Spectating (sic) sounds like slacking to me.

I do join in when they are practicing kata but we dont have many beginners.

[Neil Gendzwill]

As you have doh and kote, you should be able to participate in almost everything except jigeiko. We include our more advanced beginners in our rotation practice without any bogu at all, and just leave it up to each partner to adjust the drill as appropriate.

[tantadi]

I was talking to my sensei about this on the weekend. He pointed out that against a taller person you have one big advantage - they will go for your men almost EVERY TIME!!! I thought about it and I really cant remember the last time someone went for my kote, EVERYONE goes for men on me.

He also pointed out that I will have to get more aggressive and really take it up to my opponent, attacking first in every fight, because thats what it will take to put someone bigger off. Thats easier said than done!! I suck at that. I tend to be very defensive and go for debana cuts because Im too slow and I KNOW Im about to get smashed. Its very hard for me to just go for a men cut, rather than waiting for the other guy to make the first move. It feels like suicide. Unfortunately their first move is always a men, and currently I find it hard to block it in time.

Something for me to work on. Bloody frustrating. Just when something clicks, something else appears to be glaringly shite. I spose that means Im progressing, right? Right??? :P

Yep!

Do you stand still or take steps backward when you feel defensive? Try to always move forward, and try to move first. It is advantageous even if it feels like suicide until you have figured out what happens, at what time and distance. Then you can start to learn to use the advantage of having the initative.

[KhawMengLee]

Try not to block...the one problem when fighting taller opponent's is the instinct to raise your shinai up to block...because an opponent's shinai, at an equal height, can be blocked in the normal sense(when your shinai is raised to just above your eyebrows), we tend to get in a habit of using this as a protection. Unfortunately, taller opponents can reach over this...

As Neil Sensei said...you can always go for dou or kote.

Our Sensei last week pointed out 3 things in kendo for victory. He was explaining this in Japanese so I couldn't get all of what he was saying but it went along these lines:

As someone said before, most big guys love hitting men...also because its awkward to hit any other target besides men and tsuki when you face a much shorter opponent...so use that to your advantage...

Our Sensei did a little exercise with us where he made motodachi put down their shinai. He said 'stand in chudan and take a men hit', then he said, 'now close your eyes and take the same hit again'. Then, "now this time, keeping in proper posture, as the men hit comes , take a small step forward and diagonally to your right."

You'll notice, that when the guy is commited to the cut, how easy it is to make him miss by stepping a few inches to the side. Now try adding a men cut as you move to avoid...

[KhawMengLee]

Yep!

Do you stand still or take steps backward when you feel defensive? Try to always move forward, and try to move first. It is advantageous even if it feels like suicide until you have figured out what happens, at what time and distance. Then you can start to learn to use the advantage of having the initative.

Yeah...never move back...because they are taking one step forward to attack you. If you want to counter and you take a step back you still have to take one forward to counter(unless doing hikiwaza). So two steps to counter his one...you will take too much time...

[Alison2805]

thats awesome advice guys!! Ill give it a go. I had no idea bigger guys found it more uncomfortable when you are closer, thats brilliant!!

[Budo Angel]

Lots of good advice, the fact remains, you MUST learn to hit men, because the bottom line is, no allowances are made (certainly not in a grading), and kote & do are simply not valued as highly as a men cut. Size & sympathy will not come in to it, when powers that be assess you. Life sucks. (there appears to be sympathy for big guys not being able to hit your do, but no sympathy for you not hitting men :pirate: oh well another thread)

But get better at waza, debana, nuke, suriage etc etc ... all that good advice, incl kote & do - take it on board. Gain your confidence at what you can master, and move working out your men cut, any which how way. Yes, big guys hate close fighting distance, but get in there before their long reach cuts your men, first.

its awkward to hit any other target besides men and tsuki when you face a much shorter opponent...so use that to your advantage...

Yes, 90% they will always go for your men, work out their timing and do something !! :smiley: its too late when they're 99% hitting your head.

Battle on, pleeze.

[Commander]

Ok who left the comment on my rep? :) Whoever you are, thank you it was very much appreciated!

[bullet08]

i rarely go for men on tall people. not because i can't get their men, but because i end up hitting their men-gane and i'm too cheap to damage my shinai. specially the tall guys who just got in their bogu who tilt their head back when i go in, even after i told them not to since my shinai might splinter and that might hurt their eyes. normally with told guys who are my sempai, i have no problem aiming for their men. they never tilt their head and contact is usually solid.

but do are just so tempting on tall people. they are wide open.

pete

[Commander]

i rarely go for men on tall people. not because i can't get their men, but because i end up hitting their men-gane and i'm too cheap to damage my shinai. specially the tall guys who just got in their bogu who tilt their head back when i go in, even after i told them not to since my shinai might splinter and that might hurt their eyes. normally with told guys who are my sempai, i have no problem aiming for their men. they never tilt their head and contact is usually solid.

but do are just so tempting on tall people. they are wide open.

pete

Do has got alot to do with timing, i know when i go to hit someone do i clash with them. You know for instance debana men. I've tried that and i always end up smashing into my opponent.

[bullet08]

Do has got alot to do with timing, i know when i go to hit someone do i clash with them. You know for instance debana men. I've tried that and i always end up smashing into my opponent.

you might be starting up too late, or too close to aite. try different distance. specially with tall people. they take bigger step. they might be rushing in and your timing will be off. you need to adjust.

i was told i have great timing for do, but my distance is all off which means i'll never score with do. something that was suggested was to step back into do, or even side step for the do. what this does it creat distance for correct strike distance. i'm still working on it. i have seen a guy at TMG doing it during the shinsa.. it was very well done, and very nice and clean.

pete

[Commander]

you might be starting up too late, or too close to aite. try different distance. specially with tall people. they take bigger step. they might be rushing in and your timing will be off. you need to adjust.

i was told i have great timing for do, but my distance is all off which means i'll never score with do. something that was suggested was to step back into do, or even side step for the do. what this does it creat distance for correct strike distance. i'm still working on it. i have seen a guy at TMG doing it during the shinsa.. it was very well done, and very nice and clean.

pete

Yeah it could be, i take small steps (being 5'3) :p As everyone says it takes practice.

Better to concentrate on basic men, kote, do before i move onto the more intermediate stuff.

[Obulco]

Yeah it could be, i take small steps (being 5'3) :p As everyone says it takes practice.

Better to concentrate on basic men, kote, do before i move onto the more intermediate stuff.

Now we agree.

I am 5’5” and I understand the perspective of the short kenshi. However, to strike men in a taller person is possible with practice. No need to be discouraged. In my club, I have a 6’2” yondan and a 5’6” godan. One with a killer men and the other with a devastating kote. As I see it, this is a blessing and not a source of frustration. While it makes sense once in a while to try kote in the tall one, I see him as the perfect partner to practice men. He forces me to see that paying attention to basic footwork and arms position can do the trick. At this stage, it does not matter if I get a valid strike on him or not. There is a joy in improving our personal technique day by day. That is why we do keiko.

[runsyi]

I'm 5'4 but there aren't that many 6' or taller guys here in Hawaii. When I do jigeiko against the taller blokes I typically still go for men as tall guys usually expect to get hit kote or do. But I do like to get physical. One of the good things about being the shorter one is that you have the lower center of gravity in taiatari. There are a lot of sensei that are shorter than me and when they get under me--boom. So when I go up against bigger guys I try to do faster footwork and do taiatari rather than get into tsubazerai where they have more time to adjust and get the better of me. I think if you're cutting from hara and use your footwork then it's much easier to get the best of a tall guy... or any guy actually. Something I've been thinking about and trying to implement.

[tantadi]

Runsyi: How do you handle debana kote against the big ones? Short zanshin forward? This is where I feel that I can be flattened out...not room enough to establish control..

[runsyi]

Runsyi: How do you handle debana kote against the big ones? Short zanshin forward? This is where I feel that I can be flattened out...not room enough to establish control..

I'm no expert but one of my sensei's taught me to step diagonally (forward and slighly to the left). It really helps with accuracy for me because for a while I was hitting NBT (nothing but tsuba). I usually don't have need to seme before I hit degote because I can reach with my 39s. But I do have a problem with getting shimpan to call it because my hits aren't snappy enough.

[tantadi]

Thanks, didn't think of that.

I also have a problem with scoring on kote. I've been told to snap it hard up after the cut so it looks 'clearer'..then again, some tell me not to do this.

[Budo Angel]

Good luck with Do. But western sensei are overcritical of viewing or awarding a good Do cut (I heard two Japanese hachi dan hanshi say (separately), it was because western high grade blokes couldn't execute Do themselves ! laugh out loud). But its true - shiai Do is difficult because refs are looking for the ultimate perfect Do cut, yet will always award a less than perfect men strike.

Keep working on perfecting the Do cut anyway, its a fabulous strike to get right, and the sound is brill and puts a smile on your face, but you will still need to hit that men one way or another, so don't avoid trying to master it. Make it part of a "must do list" every practice...

ps. good advice Runsyi !!

A do cut needs to start a lot sooner than people allow (ie. waiting/anticipation) invite it, to your timing, then go. Its too late when your opponent is striking men, go when you know he's seen your open head, and is 90% hitting your head. Gambatte !

[ratdeau]

I'm tall (196cm) and I often fight with small women (students in dance school). I will speak for myself as I don't know how the other giants think.
Some considerations.
.I'm stong in the center line.
.I can attack from far and break distance easily.
.If I lower my kamae to aim at my mune's aite, it's really difficult for him/her to attack.
.It's not easy for me to turn.
.Kote is my weakest point.
.When people go for my men they really open for do and they don't expect to be attacked there.

What you could think to.
Don't let me be confident.
.Be "dangerous". If you stay in kamae when I go for your men, you can control me on my mune or tsuki. Next time I will have to be more carfull...
.Don't wait in the center line. Move. Do small steps right, left, forward and backward, without rythm. I will have to follow you and that's not easy for me.
.Do taesabaki.
Use nuki do on my men attack. Wait for the last moment before my hit.
Reduce the distance before your attack.
Some "tricks":
. go to the right forward (still aiming at me) and attack kote whe I move to follow you.
. attack a fake men, to make me react and then do a second men.
. attack kote do.
. begin to move to the left, jump formard to the right (both feets at the same time) and attack men (it's a dancer trick).
Kendo should not be based on tricks but Honda sensei write that tactics is important
http://www.kendo.org.uk/articles/tactics/01/
http://www.kendo.org.uk/articles/tactics/02/
http://www.kendo.org.uk/articles/tactics/03/

[Rurouni Kenshin]

How long did it take you before you were up to a good standard? I've been doing kendo for nearly a year and a half and im still frustrated.

Seeing kendo as a lifelong journey.......how well did you walk at age 18 months........:wink:

[Commander]

Seeing kendo as a lifelong journey.......how well did you walk at age 18 months........:wink:

Hey, i can hardly walk as it is at 20 (next week)

[JSchmidt]

How long did it take you before you were up to a good standard? I've been doing kendo for nearly a year and a half and im still frustrated.

Turn up regularly for practice and it will come.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I usually don't have need to seme before I hit degote because I can reach with my 39s. But I do have a problem with getting shimpan to call it because my hits aren't snappy enough.Speaking from the shimpan angle, I use sound a lot especially when judging kote. There are so many off-target hits that I really want to hear that nice "pop" before I'm willing to call a kote. So work on your snap, you need it.

[Anjin-san]

I would say that 80% of my kote problems disappear when I think about stretching forward with my wrists (distance being correct).

[Hai_hai]

I am a below-average height Asian, so some American kendoka are quite taller than me. It's all mental. You have nothing to fear or be intimidated during practice. As you rotate, I guess you do during keiko, be as confident as you are with taller motodachi as shorter motodachi. I do find that my arms end at a higher position in the end of the men-uchi so as to hit the opponent's men properly.