Carbon shinai

[Usui]

Hello you all kendogeeks in this forum, and especially those of you who have practiced kendo for a long time!!!

I'm thinkin of buying a carbon graphite, but the price really gives me the creeps. Anyways if I get one i'll have dobari model..

As I said - all of you who've been doing kendo for a longer while and have experience using the carbons, please help me:

1. Do you personally like to use one?

2. Are they really that durable (30x)?

3. What does a 39-dobari weight ?
{All the pages say something like 470g - ain't that quite light if todays regulation for a male's shinai is 510 or so? Besides, ain't a dobari usually even a bit heavier than a classic shinai (though it feels lighter owing to the center of gravity?)}

4. How dobari is it?!

5. Finally few questions considering the oval grip - it's possible to take wholly oval shape tsuka, but also oval shape only for the left hand. The last option seems quite promising if there's a problem of using too much right hand. On the other hand, all this oval shape thing - i think - feels like an attempt to cut through on the way of the sword and neglect the study of the correct gripping of the shinai.

By the way.. Does the Hasegawa corporation have a patent for carbon graphite shinais? Correct me if I wrong in some way but I think it's a shame because it holds back the abundant development of inventions like this...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Usui
1. Do you personally like to use one?

No, I prefer bamboo as does almost anyone with experience. If you haven't been practising long you probably won't notice much difference other than they sound funny when they hit.

2. Are they really that durable (30x)?

Yes, I've had the same one for 15 years, replaced two staves in that time. It went 10 years before the first stave broke.

3. What does a 39-dobari weight ?

Mine is 520 g including all the leather bits but not including tsuba, which is how you measure them for competition. Bear in mind that a competition-weight shinai feels a little heavy, most people are using under-weight shinai.

4. How dobari is it?!

Medium.

5. Finally few questions considering the oval grip

You didn't actually ask any questions about the oval grip there. Some people like them, some don't. If you get a chance to try one, you may or may not like it. My argument against is that switching between oval and round when you use bamboo shinai may be problematic.

[KhawMengLee]

1. Do you personally like to use one?

Bamboo is nicer...its the feel. Basic hits or blocks with the Carbon shinai feel off...hard to describe but you will know when you use one. Though the feel of a nice hit, whether bamboo or carbon, is always rewarding.

2. Are they really that durable (30x)?

Yup, haven't broken anything yet...though its advisable to go using bamboo for a year, at least, so you can learn the finer points of shinai maintenance. CF shinais don't need that much care(though its good to look over them for breakage).

Please note though, like any shinai, CF shinais will break if your hits are bad. eg...if you keep hitting the mengane grill with Ogre strikes.

3. What does a 39-dobari weight ?

the 470 weight is without fittings. Once you add the fittings(tsuka, etc) and put on the tsuba the weight should be at or over the competition weight limit.

4. How dobari is it?!

Nice.

5. Finally few questions considering the oval grip

Nice to hold...

[Usui]

Thanks for your quick answer.
Yes i'm sorry about my carelessness with the oval grip subject. I was just going to ask whether you like them personally or not and what do you think is their effect to ones keiko. ( but u kinda answered it anyway)

So you have one... and it's dobari?
I myself only have experience with the non-dobari model - both sending and receiving hits and the last isn't always very comfortable when there's something wrong with the partners uchi.

Yes i too think its true that people use under-weight shinais which is acceptable in the case they are not able to use regular weight shinai for some reason. I do think it's ok to use a shinai thats weight is customized to ones physique, but i my self prefer to quite similar shinais in both shiai and every-day-training (although not to use carbon in shiai, because it's a bit different.)

So you think experienced kendokas don't use carbons? Can you specify a little bit?

Thank you ..

[Neil Gendzwill]

I didn't say experienced kendoka don't use carbon, I said they preferred bamboo. Big difference. My carbon shinai is used for everyday knocking around, basics practice with the beginners etc. I use bamboo for free practice with the more senior people, seminars, tournaments. I think you'll find many people use them the same way.

Mine is a DB-39. I like the balance of it better than the CF series.

[Usui]

OK, Thanks..

I think i'll get me one.

In this forum there are a lot of people who say their carbon won't last - that they broke theirs after a year or so. I still believe that in almost all of the cases (with bamboo shinais as well) the reason for the accident is in the hitting technique, not the shinai.
Of course there are damaged products, bad quality and dry climates, but they are much more unusual than this forum gives to understand. I think carbon is mainly a thing for yudansha only. Do you agree?

[alexpollijr]

Usui,

I had a CF39 (non dobari) Carbon Fibre shinai. I recently sold it because I didn't really have any use for it.

I didn't like the balance, the grip and the way it used to bent when I hitted tsuki. Also, somehow part of the shock from the hit would reverb into my arm everytime.

However, Carbon Fibre can be a great backup in case your bamboo shinai suddenly splinters during practice. Additionally, if you are Yudansha and help teach Shoshinsha, Carbon shinai acts nicely as a substitute for Uchikomi-Bo.

All in All I wouldn't really buy another Carbon Fibre shinai. With skill and appropriate maintenance, I've found out that in the rather humid climate where I live a bamboo one can easily last a year or so of 3 hard practices per week.

- Alexandre

[Kuri]

Usui
I've had my DB-39 K2 (Oval handle) for well over 7 years and it still hasn't broken. I initially used it extensively for more than a year, but reverted back to bamboo. I always have it as a backup when the bamboo splinters and I don't have another bamboo shinai. I've also found it very useful when helping to instruct beginers (shinai geiko).

Why do I like my DB? Because of it's durability. As many have said, they are not indestructable, but they can certainly have a place in your training.

[Chusan]

I use my carbon for kirikaeshi with beginners (and burlies) and for sparring with beginners or notorious clubbers.
For waza or sparring with technical-oriented kenshin I use bamboo.
And, yes - carbon breaks, too.

[KATSUJIN]

Well....sorry that I cant say much since I never used a carbon shinai before....but I can tell something that I know....
Try not to use it too much. Due to synthetic materials' inability of not absorbing shock for cutting or receiving, your right elbow will end up absorbing the shock and will be deformed if left untreated over time. So try not to use it too much....

[Hongsermeier]

I was allowed to borrow someone elses carbon at practice Friday. Didn't like it. Just didn't feel right. Felt like it was bouncy. I'm sticking with Bamboo.

[dorkusxmaximus]

i like my bamboo just fine.

[Karaken]

I have CF39. I don't love it but after spending countless hours in the basement sanding, oiling and repairing shinais for 6 months, it's been a blessing to use one shinai and not having to worry about whether I would have a usable shinai for next week. I don't have local supply store and shipping is definitely a problem buying shinai. And not knowing which shinai is to buy.
Well, now I have very good bamboo shinai ( I've ordered entire line of shinais (5) from Kumdoshop.com when I ordered my 1.2bu bogu from them ) and I like one of them very much.
So CF39 became a very good backup shinai ( also when I see a wild clubber in the dojo ).. I can't say I didn't get the money's worth from CF39. I'll always have a comfort of having at least one working shinai. Believe me, I have broken 3 shinais one day.

Center - CF39 or Bamboo

[JSchmidt]

How the **** do you break 3 shinais in 1 day?...my record is 2 shinais in 2 months and both were freak accidents.

Jakob

[Hongsermeier]

JS..it's not hard to do. I've also broken 3 in 1 day. They were old and had been rotated around and were simply worn out. Luckly I usually carry 5 or 6 with me.

[iwatekenshi]

Yup when bamboo dries out they will bust really quick.
As for a carbon shinai I'm ambivalent towards them. I don't like the feel as well but they're great for doing kihon and kirikaeshi. They can save you loads of money.
I usually do the same as Mr. Gendzwill does. When going into jigeiko I do the switch to bamboo. It's such a difference and it feels really good and lively. Out of all the shinai I have my carbon is the heaviest so when going into jigeiko my arms are just flying and hits can be just perfect.
BTW for manners it's usually better to use a bamboo shinai with high ranking sensei. Amongst your peers you can get away with it.

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Ive just got a carbon shinai after 20 years (on and off) of using bamboo

I dont really like the feel and balance but as just about everyone else has pointed out it is there for seminars and sessions where people hit too hard - With sensei I use as good a bamboo as i can find

Typically beginners and mudansha hit way too hard - its easy to break 3 shinais one after the other if you are practising caveman kendo (anyone remember captain caveman ?)

If youre not experienced id reccomend you use bamboo. Carbon shinai break as well and there is nothing so aggravating as continually breaking take to teach you to hit less brutally ;-)

Additionally the shock waves of a strike are attenuated b the knuckles in the bamboo - with carbon your wrists and elbows get all of teh transmitted shock so you need to be a bit careful

all in all I think they are great where they are appropriate, but I would not reccomend a novice buy one

cheers

[Karaken]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
How the **** do you break 3 shinais in 1 day?...my record is 2 shinais in 2 months and both were freak accidents.

Jakob

Jacob, as Hongsm says it's not hard to do. My trusty shinai was rotated many times and old so it went. Back then I had only one good shinai and cheap backup which broke like a matchstick in one men. Unfortunately the next one I borrowed was also very dry cheap one that didn't last long even with careful stirkes of mine. So the story of my CF39..

I buy pretty decent shinais now and I rotate 4-5 of them so they might last forever. However, for clubbers and backup purpose, I always carry my trusty CF39.

Center - Carbon or Bamboo

[samurai999]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Usui
[B]Hello you all kendogeeks in this forum, and especially those of you who have practiced kendo for a long time!!!

1. Do you personally like to use one?

If I ever use carbon shinais, it would be in practice because they can take abuse. But in tourneys, bamboo by far.

2. Are they really that durable (30x)?

Depends. I have seen staves broken on the 3rd night of practice. I think there was a defect when the stave was manufactured. (ie carbon fiber fabric wasn't layered correctly or maybe there were bubbles in the epoxy when everything was cured) But overall, they last a long time. In addition, there is less maintinence required than a bamboo shinai.

3. What does a 39-dobari weight ?
{All the pages say something like 470g - ain't that quite light if todays regulation for a male's shinai is 510 or so? Besides, ain't a dobari usually even a bit heavier than a classic shinai (though it feels lighter owing to the center of gravity?)}

I think 470+/size 39 is a womens regulation. 510+/size 39 is mens. If the CG of the shinai is towards the handle, it feels light. Speaking about it as an engineer, the rotation point is mainly about the "butt-end" of the shinai. If all the weight is there or close to there, the shinai feels lighter. If you put weight at the end of the shinai, then your shinai weighs heavier, but it is good for suburi practice.


Tim

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill


5. Finally few questions considering the oval grip

You didn't actually ask any questions about the oval grip there. Some people like them, some don't. If you get a chance to try one, you may or may not like it. My argument against is that switching between oval and round when you use bamboo shinai may be problematic. [/B]

I used an oval handle K2 (two hand oval grip) for trainig but change to a nice bamboo shinai for keiko. My experience was that as I was used to both, there was no problem interchanging.

And I am about to purchase a new one.



Richard

[KATSUJIN]

i would recommend a oval grip to train ur left hand....it is very good....

[Shogun97]

Well in fact carbon Shinais are nearly the same as the bamboo Shinais, the only difference is that they are harder to break that the bamboo ones!
I personaly like the bamboo ones much better!
Well the carbon ones are a bit lighter.

[JSchmidt]

3. What does a 39-dobari weight ?
{All the pages say something like 470g - ain't that quite light if todays regulation for a male's shinai is 510 or so?
Tim

470 grams is before fittings. Not sure how much those weighs, but the last shinai I bought, they weighed it at the shop (In Japan) and it came in at 480grams and it's heavier than most. (But the balance is awesome)

Jakob

[Dave Fowler]

Well I haven't weighed mine, a DB39 from hasigawa (sp?). But I do know that after using it all practice and then switching to my shinai for fighting it seems like it's as light as a feather. (so i'm assuming it's heavier than the bamboo).

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well I haven't weighed mine, a DB39 from hasigawa (sp?). But I do know that after using it all practice and then switching to my shinai for fighting it seems like it's as light as a feather. (so i'm assuming it's heavier than the bamboo).
Carbon shinai are built to tournament weight. I believe mine was 520 g, not including tsuba. So yeah, that makes them heavier than a lot of bamboo shinai as most people's shinai are a little light.

[sminki]

Carbon shinai are built to tournament weight. I believe mine was 520 g, not including tsuba. So yeah, that makes them heavier than a lot of bamboo shinai as most people's shinai are a little light.

REALLY? I feel that my carbon is lighter than my bamboo shinai. I guess I must be getting pretty heavy shinai.

[Karaken]

Well I haven't weighed mine, a DB39 from hasigawa (sp?). But I do know that after using it all practice and then switching to my shinai for fighting it seems like it's as light as a feather. (so i'm assuming it's heavier than the bamboo).

Dead weight shouldn't matter as much as swing weight. I don't know about DB39 ( I don't have one ) but my CF39 ( should be heavier to swing ) doesn't feel much heavier than my bamboo shinais. Maybe just a little bit.

Center

[Old Warrior]

Karaken

Oh, so that was only a CF39 dent in my mengane? And there I was thinking it was a DB39. Live and learn.

[Karaken]

Karaken

Oh, so that was only a CF39 dent in my mengane? And there I was thinking it was a DB39. Live and learn.

Not a chance OW - when I'm visiting a dojo, I bring only bamboo shinais.

Center

[fujii]

Sorry for being the boring guy, but I would not recommend a Carbon shinai!

I just sold mine after having used it for three years, (regular and dobari) due to elbow injuries caused by carbon shinai. And I'm not the only one in mine dojo who has suffered elbow problems from carbon shinai. It seems that the flexibility in the carbon shinai can cause over streching of your elbow when you hit.

so now I'm back to old fashinoned bamboo shinai with all the troubles that means in a dry and cold country where I practise!