Hard Work vs. Talent

[taganahan]

as i've posted in another thread, some people who rarely practice(once in every x months) can still beat the snot out of someone who practices 2-3 times a week.

now i'm wondering, can a hard worker really go head to head with someone who has pure talent?

~taganahan

[Genya]

I believe that if person really wants to get good at kendo and loves practicing it, he/ she can be equal with someone who is just talented. I think it´s useless to go to every practice and just do what you´re told to do if you don´t have desire to do it. You won´t learn anything from that.

[bullet08]

as i've posted in another thread, some people who rarely practice(once in every x months) can still beat the snot out of someone who practices 2-3 times a week.

now i'm wondering, can a hard worker really go head to head with someone who has pure talent?

~taganahan

i think pure talent is really great to have, but hard work will pay off sooner or later. when someone has pure talent, and hard work that's when the things really shine.

since i don't have any talent, everyone bit the snot out of me all the time.

pete

[Neil Gendzwill]

as i've posted in another thread, some people who rarely practice(once in every x months) can still beat the snot out of someone who practices 2-3 times a week.What, did Phil show up out of the blue and cream you? He's a special case.

[taganahan]

What, did Phil show up out of the blue and cream you? He's a special case.

he stopped showing up again,:grin: .

it's quite unfair to compare the teacher against the student.

~taganahan

[Shazzanzzz]

I'm a firm believer that talent, IQ, intelligence, what not are developed after birth. They are shaped by the experiences you have encountered since you are a baby. Same with attitude. I also think that for kendo, if you have the right attitude and the right guidance is provided, you can be as good as you want to be in kendo. Kendo, when you get right down to it, is about readiness and confidence, and matches are won by your head, not your body. The difference, in my opinion, between people who are considered good or not isn't physical talent or even intelligence, but whither you GET IT or NOT. People who get it see what needs to be done and then just do it. People who doesn't get it either don't see what needs to be done or thinks way too much about what needs to be done. I think that's why people who doesn't practice sometimes seems like they're pure talents.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Phil has a lot of raw athletic talent but it's also backed up by many years of training. Doesn't take him long to shake off the rust. But there is still a lot of training behind the talent.

Like any other thing, dedication+talent wins over just dedication, but the bottom line is you need the dedication. You can only be the best you can be by trying your hardest - if you are always comparing your progress to someone else, you'll just get bitter. But I've seen many talented people quit, and the less talented slog on and accomplish things for themselves. I'm proof - I'll never play for Canada, but I'm a lot better player than all the others that have quit along the way.

Shazzanzzz, that's a healthy attitude for improving yourself but it's not backed up by the facts. The cold hard reality is that people are born everyday that are built to be faster, stronger and smarter than you or I. Whether they do anything with those gifts is up to them.

[Charlie]

I'll never play for Canada, but I'm a lot better player than all the others that have quit along the way.

Sums it up nicely. My answer to the initial question is, oh, yeah, training can beat talent and does. Then the talented either train or go wherever it is talented people go - you all got some kind of bar or someplace where you meet on Saturdays to revel in how talented you are? :D

[Halcyon]

As with many things in life, 90% of success is just showing up.

[Ignatz]

I met this old blues guitar player years ago who said "There's lots of folks who can play better than me but I've never heard of anyone who plays like me."

This is somewhat applicable to kendo. There are many, many, many kendo players out there who are better than me but when the crusty old, over the hill, decrepit, yet still movie star handsome, geezer steps onto the court, they know they are going to have to fight for the win and if they don't pay very, very close attention something bad will happen to them.

[JBouch]

I agree with a lot of what's already been said. The only thing I would say that is a little different is that I see talent and hard work as complimenting each other in a very direct way. I think each person will have a certain degree of talent, either in their general affinity or in being closer to a physical ideal, for a given action. That talent creates the foundation for the potential a person can achieve in the action. However, only hard work allows you to achieve the fullest potential. On top of this, I see dedication as increasing one's potential; by training the mind to focus in new ways while placing the body under a consistent regimine of stress, we can gain both a mental affinity and a physical advantage.

It's partly for that reasoning that I don't ever sell myself short - I feel I can always draw more out from myself. I made it to AUSKF nationals once, but lost in the first round. Now, I'm older and amid a lot tougher competition. Even so, I won't discount the chance that I could get back to the same stage and see a lot more success for myself.

[Paburo]

imho an important talent is being able to absorb what the sensei has to tell you, and take it down to your roots. i see many ppl who attend all the classes but they do stuff like robots, thus they improve very slowly.

on the other hand, there are some who though training less days per week/month, learn very quick, and put in practice all theyve been learning from every sensei.

so as i see it, the talent to be able to squeeze the very last drop of each keiko and learn fast, perhaps is better than just going there and working 'hard' but aimless...

[Auricom22]

Not much raw talent at work here, and on my way home from Cleveland I was so frustrated that utilizing my bogu and shinai for a marshmallow roast seemed an excellent idea. Haven't been back to practice since.

But oddly enough I never stopped training at home. Then I watched the family tournament here in MI and realized that it doesn't matter how quickly I move down this path so long as I keep walking. So tomorrow I'm going back to practice, and will take another step.

[Bennosuke]

As an optimistic youth I feel that any one who is dedicated can go very far, and can often trump natural athletic talent. It also depends on what you consider a good kendo player to be, and what you consider natural talent.
If you consider the twenty somethings who compete internationally to be the best, then natural talent is very important. But if you consider the fifty to eighty year old hachi dans to better, then natural strength or speed has very little to do with it anymore. They reach the levels they do because they make the actions of kendo natural to them, and thus don't have to work as hard, and can thus start to achieve a higher mental level. This is only accomplished through hard work, although you could argue that they have a natural talent to work hard, or to learn things faster.

My opinion is that because we all live, we all pick up our own natural talents as we develop. We might be born faster or smarter or stronger, but there are very few people who are good at everthing. The best kendo players are those who apply their aquired natural talents to their kendo.

[Bennosuke]

Sorry... that is something I have been thinking about for a while after reading some of Musashi's writings about playing to your streanghts.

[Nokori 3byo]

How about patience and humility, two qualities which enable someone to stick around long enough to determine whether or not they actually have talent.

This point begs another question, though. For the instructors out there, how early on in someone`s kendo career can you spot raw talent?

[Saigo]

The harder you work the more talented you get :P

[Kingofmyrrh]

As an optimistic youth I feel that any one who is dedicated can go very far, and can often trump natural athletic talent. It also depends on what you consider a good kendo player to be, and what you consider natural talent.
If you consider the twenty somethings who compete internationally to be the best, then natural talent is very important. But if you consider the fifty to eighty year old hachi dans to better, then natural strength or speed has very little to do with it anymore. They reach the levels they do because they make the actions of kendo natural to them, and thus don't have to work as hard, and can thus start to achieve a higher mental level. This is only accomplished through hard work, although you could argue that they have a natural talent to work hard, or to learn things faster.

My opinion is that because we all live, we all pick up our own natural talents as we develop. We might be born faster or smarter or stronger, but there are very few people who are good at everthing. The best kendo players are those who apply their aquired natural talents to their kendo.
I want to be optimistic as well, but the sad fact is that if you look at the past achievements of most of the celebrated 8th dans, you'll see that they've enjoyed success early on in their kendo career as well. It's much more usual for people who were good in the first place to continue being so than to find a late bloomer who suddenly finds that he can beat all the talented guys. Of course, there are more talented people than there are 8th dans, which must mean that hard work is an essential component as well.

[Fudo-Shin]

It seems that, in the western world, the few people who are genuinely physically gifted and can pick Kendo up very fast often do not "stick at it". This may be because they get bored or realise they will never become a Pro...or don't have the patience...or a multitude of other reasons.

It also seems that we forget (in the western countries) that it is a path that, should you choose it, is walked for a lifetime. It is not about who is the best but who tries thier best and does not deviate from that path. Not everything, god forbid, is a competition - least of all Kendo.

But it does feel nice to beat someone sweetly during Shiai.

I believe that patience and hard work are MOST important no matter how gifted you are and this will be what helps you in the long run to win over talent. Talent alone does not win matches IMO but it sure does help. There is also psychology, experience, fitness and many other factors.

[taganahan]

good points.

sure, hard work might eventually surpass talent but that'll take time. by the time they've reached them, these hard workers will play catch up again because the talented people have learned something new again. yes, they'll be on the same level, but only for a short period.

plus, imho, hard workers have a certain capacity. i see hard workers as copy cats, they copy something and master it. on the other hand talented people can copy something, master it, improve it and create something new out of it. i'm not only talking about kendo, but also other sports.

~taganahan

[The great I AM]

plus, imho, hard workers have a certain capacity. i see hard workers as copy cats, they copy something and master it. on the other hand talented people can copy something, master it, improve it and create something new out of it. i'm not only talking about kendo, but also other sports.

~taganahanI think this is a good point. The talented ones, in my opinion, are the ones who really succeed in imprinting there own personality on their kendo, and making kendo theirs. The hard workers (this may seem derogatory but its not supposed to be!) do good kendo, but a little more generic and what some people might call "standard kendo" than the talented ones.

[Charlie]

So tomorrow I'm going back to practice, and will take another step.

Kendo up, my brotha!

I never really think about talent when it comes to anything. I mean, I don't think I've ever seen anyone do anything and go, "Oh, my God, he was born to do that!" Not Jordan, not Tiger, not Hendrix, not anyone. All I see when I look at someone like is training. I mean, you do what your gifts are and some people pick things up quicker than others but it's all pretty useless without hard work and dedication. The only thing I'm jealous of is time in the saddle.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I mean, I don't think I've ever seen anyone do anything and go, "Oh, my God, he was born to do that!"Got kids? Watch 'em play sports and you'll see huge differences in talent, from very early ages, before there's ever any training. My daughter has a friend who ran literally twice as fast as any other kid on the soccer team, turned out she was top 4 in her age class for sprinting. Never trains. Watching her run is like watching a deer run, it's a thing of beauty and natural grace.

The pro athletes are genetic freaks of nature, every damn one. Don't get me wrong, they work hard at what they do, but it's really easy for people to rationalise away their own position in the athletic hierarchy with "it's all about the work". The work is required, but so is the talent if you want to be in the top rungs.

[JBouch]

The work is required, but so is the talent if you want to be in the top rungs.

This kind of goes back to what I said earlier - what do you mean by talent? If you define it as raw physical capacity, why would an 80 year old man still be able to beat me in kendo? Surely I can best most octogenarians in strength and speed, which would play a great role in being 'talented' in kendo. All the same, I've had my kendo systematically dismantled and sundered by real old sensei who look like they need a cane up until keiko begins. That raw capacity, then, doesn't speak to the full definition of what we could call 'talent'.

[Charlie]

Very interesting, Neil. My boy's two so I haven't experienced that yet.

Well, sounds like in the case of a natural who works hard to be among the top in athletics that you should just sit back and admire it and accept that you are either less talented in that particular field or work harder to be a contender. You know what I always say, or maybe you don't: you may not have as much skill but you can have enough chutzpah and give 'em hell just the same.

[Neil Gendzwill]

This kind of goes back to what I said earlier - what do you mean by talent? Well, there's physical and mental aptitude for something. But don't forget that 80 year old's put probably 70 years of hard work into it. Also, when you're playing a sensei like that, the game is automatically different. We don't play him like we're in a tournament, we play him like it's more pure kendo. If you're not senior enough to approach it that way, you're no trouble to him no matter how you play him. If you're senior enough to recognise how to approach it, how you will best learn from him, then he's going to beat you because that game is more mental things than physical things. But if you put the 80 year old sensei in the shiai-jo with a young hotshot, I think the age will be a problem for the tournament game.

[ahmed61086]

I think in kendo you need a differnt kind of talent them some other sports. I think you could just have decent physical talents in Kendo, but if you have a realy good Mental Talent you can learn to compete with anyone. Since kendo has a strong emphasis on Strategy and having good focus and a calm mind, these things could be inborn and in effect, lead to a very good kendo player.

[Paikea]

... but if you have a realy good Mental Talent you can learn to compete with anyone. Since kendo has a strong emphasis on Strategy and having good focus and a calm mind, these things could be inborn and in effect, lead to a very good kendo player.Good mental abilities with no physical talent gives you a guy standing there saying "Duh, kote. As if..." after the flags went up for the other guy. Strategy without execution is just an idea.

I'm full of ideas.

[DarQik]

This kind of goes back to what I said earlier - what do you mean by talent? If you define it as raw physical capacity, why would an 80 year old man still be able to beat me in kendo?Awesome sports talent has both a physical and mental component. There's the physical stamina and coordination, but there's also the mental focus, ability to read opponents, mental flexibilty to adapt under pressure, and drive to excel (dedication). You can have lots of physical athletic talent, but with the other parts it's not complete.

I know there is plenty written about this elsewhere in coaching and sports press. Personally, I had it expressed to me by a retired NHL player now working with the rest of us. He had worked hard to get to the pros, but didn't feel that he had the same talent the others did. He had to work very hard to maintain the level of skill these super talented guys had without regular practice.

While we mortals may lack some of those advantages, we can compete with those talented individuals who lack some of the critical requirements for complete success--we just have to work a lot harder.

[Ignatz]

Good mental abilities with no physical talent gives you a guy standing there saying "Duh, kote. As if..." after the flags went up for the other guy. Strategy without execution is just an idea.

I'm full of ideas.
I hate it when that happens, especially when you never even saw the other guy move.

[enkorat]

I would also not discount the ability of some people to disguise "hard work" as "pure talent", and to make the fruits of hard work seem effortless and completely natural.

Also, a lot of beginners who appear to have "natural talent" straight out of the starting gate with kendo may come from a background where they have already trained in some other physical activity. Often times this isn't discussed but you can tell by how well people can control their bodies, how they move, how fast they can learn from watching, and ... err...to be blunt, how much or how little they whine about physical exersion. Most people who have trained in some atheletic endevour prior to kendo, err... "suck it up", while um... let's call them "armchair action heros"... for whom kendo is their first ever intense physical training tend to find the going a bit rough.

Back when I started my martial arts career, my belt cohort used to hold people in awe that could progress quickly. A friend of mine who was in the "naturally talented" group said once that he had simply "translated" martial arts movements from basketball, which he had been doing since childhood. The people who progressed the fastest had extensive physical training in some other atheletic endevour, be it gymnastics, lacrosse, TKD. The rest of us felt like losers.

When I started kendo, I had about 5 years of background in martial arts, and I relied on a lot of previous training and the control that I had developed over my body. So some of the sempai were impressed by how quickly I was learning things. Whether or not that was preceived as "natural talent", I don't know.

My inclination with kendo is that the "hard part" of kendo for me isn't the technical part. Its my mind that holds me back more than my body, I think.

[Koki]

Well, I think my highschool biology teacher explained it best...

Let's have a scale from 0 to 100. The genetic code of person A gives him a range from 75 to 90. That is his potential. The genetic code of person B gives him a range from 60 to 80. Generally speaking, person A has more potential than person B.

However, that is just the potential. If person A doesn't train, he would always be 75, or even be decreased to a lower number. On the other hand, person B train daily, and he is able to maximize his potential, i.e. 80. Now, who is better?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I hate it when that happens, especially when you never even saw the other guy move.That must happen a lot to you with Kishino-sensei - just saw on your dojo website he placed in the All-Japan High School championships. I bet he's pretty quick.

[Paikea]

I hate it when that happens, especially when you never even saw the other guy move.Even better when he's 20 years older than me.

[Charlie]

Also, a lot of beginners who appear to have "natural talent" straight out of the starting gate with kendo may come from a background where they have already trained in some other physical activity.

You know, I'm not a great dancer but when I started taking dance lessons with my wife I picked it up a lot quicker than all the other guys as a result of my martial arts experience. The similarities were clear as day and I knew exactly how to pay attention, remember and practice when we'd learn moves.

[runsyi]

I sure hope that hard work can overcome talent. But I think it depends on what kind of talent you are talking about. I think hard work can eventually overcome someone who is simply physically gifted (i.e., fast) but if the person is talented insofar as being able to see openings and has really good hand-eye coordination, then it is an entirely different question.

[Ignatz]

That must happen a lot to you with Kishino-sensei - just saw on your dojo website he placed in the All-Japan High School championships. I bet he's pretty quick.
All I can say is that he is awesome. I'm lucky. We were at NYC Kendo Club one night and Kishino and Kataoka were doing keiko. In about 2 or 3 minutes everybody else stopped to watch. It was just incredible.

This is very pertinent to the original topic. Kishino sensei is pretty young (compared to me) and is not only a natural athelte but has trained diligently in kendo for years. When I first met him he was yondan and when he passed godan it seemed to me that his kendo changed. Well actually, looking back, it had been changing all along but to me I saw a quantum leap. It was like watching a flower bloom.
Unfortunately he is a Mets fan but I can forgive him that one thing.:wink:

[ne0r]

Hm... Gaining talent by former experience with other arts be it martial or other...
This seems quite interesting. Even though I am yet a beginner, I have the luck to improve quite fast, or that's at least what a guy at my dojo said (and in comparisement to other guys who do kendo as long as me).
But when I'm in the dojo it feels like learning playing the violine or like learning skating (two 'arts' I practised in former times =) ). And I think this is something that really helps me a lot. Though it's quite strange that playing the violine helps me in Kendo ;D .

[Bennosuke]

As a child I was never good at sports, I have very poor coordination. Then in high school I began long distance running, where my long legs and drive really helped me. As a runner I was good, I could run a mile in sub five minutes as a sophmore, but even so I was nothing compared to a few other guys on my team. I had to work much harder just to keep up. Running requires a natural talent, with a very specific body type.

But what I like about kendo is that so many different aspects can be incoorperated to create good kendo. I concede that a track runner or baseball player is born with a body type that aids them in their sport, but because there is so much to kendo, physical mental and spiritual, we are all born with advantages. Those who are the best are the kendoka who learn fast and are able to figure out what natural abilities they have, and tap into them.

[Bennosuke]

I think I've heard somewhere that the two stages that effect our "natural ability" the most are when we are born, and when we go through puberty. This makes sense, because there were a lot of boys faster than me in elementry school, but in middleschool I became physically active due to physical therapy for my back. This really helped me learn how to use my body.

[JSchmidt]

But what I like about kendo is that so many different aspects can be incoorperated to create good kendo. I concede that a track runner or baseball player is born with a body type that aids them in their sport, but because there is so much to kendo, physical mental and spiritual, we are all born with advantages. Those who are the best are the kendoka who learn fast and are able to figure out what natural abilities they have, and tap into them.

The physical and mental requirements for baseball aren't all that different from kendo....

[Bennosuke]

That you must be fast and have good hand eye yes.

But the way you swing a shinai and a bat are different. Pure streagth isn't needed to slug a ball. Although there is a psychological game between batter and pitcher, one is throwing the other is hitting. In kendo both must attack and defend.

I think being good at baseball, or having a lot of baseball experience would help, but I don't think that a "could be" naturally talented baseball player who never played baseball would have an edge in kendo over anyone else.

[JSchmidt]

That you must be fast and have good hand eye yes.


Much more to it than that..and the battle between the pitcher and the batter is not that one-sided, but is a dynamic entity, often stretching back years. (In terms of MLB anyway).
Further, ability to use your hips efficiently, understand the game and your surroundings and having a good tactical mind is all part of baseball.
Just look at the 'older' pitchers. As they can no longer throw a mid-90's fastball, they start to rely on movement and placement rather than attempting to use raw power to defeat the opponent.

I'm also certain you could pick many other sports and the requirements will be the same. They are not exactly new to the world.

[Bennosuke]

But the abilities that you are talking about for the older pitchers and hitters are aquired techniques, not natural ability. Unless you are saying that those naturally good baseball players are born knowing how to use their hips properly and intuitivly have baseball centric tacticalical minds.

[Bennosuke]

Actually now that I think about it, the baseball comparison is similar to how as kendoka get older, they begin having to rely on technique rather than raw streangth.

[Hai_hai]

as i've posted in another thread, some people who rarely practice(once in every x months) can still beat the snot out of someone who practices 2-3 times a week.

now i'm wondering, can a hard worker really go head to head with someone who has pure talent?

~taganahan
Unfortunately, the answer is no. I have pure ninja talent and I can basically win with one hand tied behind my back. And, I think that speaks volumes before I even step into the dojo.

[Ignatz]

Much more to it than that..and the battle between the pitcher and the batter is not that one-sided, but is a dynamic entity, often stretching back years. (In terms of MLB anyway).
Kevin Costner's For Love of the Game deals with this in a way that reminded me of kendo. You step into the court and everything goes away, you can't hear the crowd yelling or anything. I start talking to my opponent even before I step in (he can't hear me of course) "Alright sparky, whatcha got for me today? Little kote? Let's see it." "Husaaaaaaaaaah!"
But remember, you can only throw a split fingered fast ball for about three years then your elbow is history.

[KhawMengLee]

You know...talent is like a diamond in the rough. Unless you cut/shape/polish it up properly, thats all it will be...wasted potential.

Tiger Woods has talent. But that doesn't mean he doesn't train his butt off everyday...I mean even after he won the Masters he went off to take 1000balls before going to party. Now that's training.

[Alison2805]

I have friend who is not only stunningly gorgeous, she masters ANYTHING within a couple of weeks and kicks everyones ass at it - basketball, soccer, skateboarding, iceskating, dancing, and more recently jazz drumming (imagine all 4 limbs doing different rhythms at once, its the hardest drumming to do). She has an amazing amount of talent when it comes to learning how to do stuff.

I have to work my ass off to learn stuff, but thats what makes it so awesome when I finally get it. If it was all easy, it would be boring.

[Mudansha]

I'm from socal and I've not met a single Kenshi, national team members included, who didn't train their asses off to get where they are now. They constantly instill in us low-ranks that if we want to be as good as them, we have to practice hard. I do not believe that talent has much to do with it, because at the end of 20 minutes of straight kakarigeiko, even the most talented Kenshi is reduced to nothing...it is the determination of going back and taking that kind of punishment day after day that makes him/her stronger. I think you will be hard pressed to find any young, fast, seemingly untouchable/unbelievably "talented" sensei who didn't go through hell in his teens.

[DCPan]

as i've posted in another thread, some people who rarely practice(once in every x months) can still beat the snot out of someone who practices 2-3 times a week.

Kinda like saying how some people never study but get straight A's huh?

Life is like a bank account...those with talent starts with the bigger initial deposit...but unless you make regular deposits to the account (i.e. train), you are going to run out of money eventually. Besides, who is going to tell you how much they've been depositing in the bank?

YMMV.

[tantadi]

I must say I believe in the "99% perspiration and 1% inspiration" - theory when it comes to success. But then again, not all have the 1% edge and then they will never reach an extraordinary level. imo. (Most of us have to find other reasons than wanting to be amongst the top contenders to keep on working hard.)

[MiChuhSuh]

Everyone should be a Naruto fan!!!!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkzCj2DqyBk&search=naruto%20100

Just to get what they're talking about, Brock Lee is a completely hopeless kid in terms of "supernatural" types of techniques (they call it ninjustu and genjustu, sorry for those who know what that really is) but he compensated for it by using regular fighting moves, but his arm and leg were crushed and he is told he must stop being a ninja. He looks likes his sensei because he idolizes him.

P.S. To the mods, watch the episode before you say this has nothing to do with it

Quote "A dropout can beat a genius through hard work."

O and sorry for the fanciful definition of ninjas but get over it lol

[MiChuhSuh]

One more thing, basically the entire storyline of Naruto deals with fate vs. choice and born natural talent vs. hard work. Basically the conclusion is always that fate can be changed by effort towards a chosen personal goal and a hard working and determined person can beat a genius prodigy.

Some great quotes:


"There is no point in working hard if you do not believe in yourself."

^So true


"When captured birds grow wise, they try to open the cage with their beaks. They don't give up, because they want to fly again."

^about overcoming fate with effort (told to a kid who believed his lineage made him doomed to servitude)

This next quote is after watching a fight where the underdog used a trick/strategy to beat the opponent even when he seemed to be beaten:


"Although beaten, he believed in victory, and kept thinking of a next move. The power to believe in yourself. That will become the power to change fate. One should know this instinctively."

If you noticed, this goes against many old ways of thinking in Japan, which is why it's great they're airing this series in Japan, to change views on lineage, failue, etc. Like one of the ending songs said, don't let a failure go to waste, instead learn from it and have your ridicule motivate you to succeed.

Also, what I liked is the idea that a prerequisite of success from hard work is believing in yourself. I see many many people working hard but still say "I can't be as good as that guy but I can still try to get close" or something like that. This is nonsense. I believe the old Daito-Ryu statement that any opponent can be beaten. Not only can his strength, speed, and physical power be overcome, but even his skill and technique can be beaten. As in an unskilled person can beat a skilled person. It's hard to explain but to win you have to have this type of mentality.

Happy Training!

[Old Warrior]

It has always been my belief that hard work can make you "very good" at something. To be great, it takes some innate talent. Having said that, I have also observed on any one day, being "very good" may be enough to win. Nevertheless, as pointed out by others, some people are just more skilled than you, even if they don't practice regularly.

[Kitsune]

Talent without training is like training without talent...

You always have to practice, practice and practice, because is in learning techniques where the talented can get better.

Hope I explain it well:confused2

[Mudansha]

I think michuhsuh brings up a good point in believing in yourself - I think most of us have heard accounts of some young shodan or nidan scoring ippon on a 4 or 5-dan sensei in shiai...he may have been destroyed 2-1 afterwards, but if he didn't believe before the match began that he could have scored that point, I'm certain that he wouldn't have been able to.

[Po5i]

With talent only, you can reach certain level, no more.
With hard work only, the same as before.

You need the guide of a sensei and ishokenmei to raise your level.

[MiChuhSuh]

I think michuhsuh brings up a good point in believing in yourself - I think most of us have heard accounts of some young shodan or nidan scoring ippon on a 4 or 5-dan sensei in shiai...he may have been destroyed 2-1 afterwards, but if he didn't believe before the match began that he could have scored that point, I'm certain that he wouldn't have been able to.

Thanks, I guess you're the only one who expressed agreement lol

This sounds dumb but that show really made me re-think many ideas.

I was amazed to a new understanding, really I was "enlightened" - anyone can be beaten.

Now most people say things like "good technique beats physical ability" and that's what most people mean when they say anyone can be beaten

But this goes beyond that. Basically, anyone, who is not only weak, but also even low skilled people and inexperienced low-ranking people can beat people who are not only faster and stronger but more skilled and higher ranking.

It's really hard to explain but somehow that show convinced me of that. A big part of it was changing your definition and methods of "winning" and "success." I'll post a link to an episode with a great examp-le of that, basically they were rescueing someone, they tricked the kidnapper into thinking they were setting up all this stuff to fight, when really their intention was to grap the kid and run, and that's exactly what they did. They were not only weaker, but in martial arts were basically a band of rookies, but they beat high level masters by focusing on their true objective.

I heard a quote from a Daito-Ryu guy like this too, "Anyone can be defeated." I know it's different when it comes to your sensei and senior members, but at least think of high dans from other schools, and know that even 9 dans can be defeated.

Now with that in mind, it's very esay to believe in success. In fact in the show, the fact that they were so underestimated became an advantage against high level masters. This combined with their strong belief in victory made them invincible.

So no matter who you face, know that your oppenent is a human being. In the classroom treat them accordingly to rank, but in a situation where they are an enemy or an opponent, think of them as mere human beings, all of which you will defeat!!!!!

[MiChuhSuh]

With talent only, you can reach certain level, no more.
With hard work only, the same as before.

You need the guide of a sensei and ishokenmei to raise your level.

This speak of "levels." No offense to you, but to respectfully disagree, even if a person is on a higher "level", what of it?

Now of course within your dojo treat him accordingly, but say in a fighting situation, where your opponent is of a higher level, do not assume that means defeat for you.

Think on this, a person can be both all talented, quick learning, and hard working all at the same time.

You can be lacking in natural ability, slow learning, and possibly even lazy.

But lets go back a few hundred years and make this a true fighting life-or-death situation. If you honestly believed being on a lower level meant defeat, you should just stick your neck out and make your death quick. But who here would want to do that? Well by trying to fight, you must believe in the possibility of defeating him. Self-confidence, determination, and forward-thinking can all lead to victory.

This is a great story my sensei told me. There was an army in Japan that was for all purposes invincible. They were a group of 150 mean that in a well recorded battle defeated 1,000 samurai. Now there is no way anyone was on their "level". It seemed hopeless against them. Now one leader devised a strategy. He gathered a mere 300 men and only trained them in one cut. he put them in groups of two, and in the battle all they did was run in groups of two and cut at one target at the same time. Regardless of how skilled the opponent was, it was nearly impossible for them to handle to simultaneous cuts from different angles. then, on top of this, one would usually survive, and he could join another froup of 2 in case some died. They continued this way and quickly defeated the enemy.

[Mudansha]

MiChuhSuh,

While I am familiar with Naruto, the themes presented are very idealistic and are only relative in the big picture, certainly not always applicable in specific instances, like Kendo.

There is a difference between shiai and jigeiko, for instance. A lesser dan might have the confidence and score a point on a sensei in shiai, for example, but that is because of the nature of the shiai - there must be a winner or a loser. In this case to admit defeat beforehand would be a waste. However, it has to be noted that beyond the merit of that single point, which might be the consequence of underestimation, it says nothing about the person's kendo "beating" or "bettering" the sensei's.

If you do jigeiko with a nanadan, hachidan sensei though, you shouldn't try to "beat" them. You cannot "beat" them. The reality of it is, any point you score is allowed to you and you are moving in slow motion. We are taught in this case to forget about scoring points and just show our strongest and cleanest Kendo, so that the sensei can correct us. If you play them like you are a match for them, not only will they not take you seriously, but you might piss them off. Getting tsuki'd 10 times to the ground will do some damage to your confidence, and your chest.

My advice is, don't read too far into this stuff - the themes were admittedly based on Hollywood movies in the first place, hardly revolutionary. Just practice as hard as you can - its the easiest way to see improvement and you won't be delusional.

Even in Naruto, Lee was able to overcome his genius rival only through very, very, very exaggerated hard practice.

[MiChuhSuh]

I think we are speaking on two different things.

I am talking about real, unavoidable, and inevitable fights (not I said go back a few hundred years). I wasn't speaking of any "game" match.

On top of that I can also refer to tournaments etc. What's the point of entering on thinking that you will lose?

[MiChuhSuh]

But lets go back a few hundred years and make this a true fighting life-or-death situation. If you honestly believed being on a lower level meant defeat, you should just stick your neck out and make your death quick. But who here would want to do that? Well by trying to fight, you must believe in the possibility of defeating him. Self-confidence, determination, and forward-thinking can all lead to victory.

This is a great story my sensei told me. There was an army in Japan that was for all purposes invincible. They were a group of 150 mean that in a well recorded battle defeated 1,000 samurai. Now there is no way anyone was on their "level". It seemed hopeless against them. Now one leader devised a strategy. He gathered a mere 300 men and only trained them in one cut. he put them in groups of two, and in the battle all they did was run in groups of two and cut at one target at the same time. Regardless of how skilled the opponent was, it was nearly impossible for them to handle to simultaneous cuts from different angles. then, on top of this, one would usually survive, and he could join another froup of 2 in case some died. They continued this way and quickly defeated the enemy.

By the way this was a true story, not Naruto

[tantadi]

I think we are speaking on two different things.

I am talking about real, unavoidable, and inevitable fights (not I said go back a few hundred years). I wasn't speaking of any "game" match.

On top of that I can also refer to tournaments etc. What's the point of entering on thinking that you will lose?

Thinking about losing or winning is all connected with bad ego. Focusing upon doing what you can, as good as you can, with as much conviction you possibly can muster, is better.

[The great I AM]

Thinking about losing or winning is all connected with bad ego. Focusing upon doing what you can, as good as you can, with as much conviction you possibly can muster, is better.I disagree. Thinking about winning and losing has its place, but is simply not ALWAYS appropriate. Thinking about winning and losing ALL THE TIME no matter who you practise with is bad.

[bobdonny]

I'm not sure there is such thing as talent.

I think it relates to your context, if 2 individuals begin training and both work the same (and i do mean the same!) if one is better i think there can be many, many reasons... like his current fitness levels, his previous training, his mental state (i.e. healty family/work life etc) his values, both social and physcological.... perhaps one endures pain etc more or remembers training better.

I reckon this arguement is pretty much non existant from that point of view, but then you could also argue a person may be genetically dispositioned to something, but that again comes from his heritage and their interaction with the very same thing.

Answer... Hardwork, forget about talent, thats for posers ;)

[bobdonny]

Thinking about losing or winning is all connected with bad ego. Focusing upon doing what you can, as good as you can, with as much conviction you possibly can muster, is better.

Im my opinion a healty attitude and appreciation of winning and loosing is paramount.

You cant focus on what you can do, without realising what you cant. Embracing failure is an important benchmark to achieving success, its really very important to fail, but more important is understanding why, or reflecting on your failures.

It certainly is not connected with a bad ego. Where i reckon you are going with the ego, is people that cannot accept loosing (and cheat, whine etc) but i'd argue that if they really cant accept loosing they haven't a hope of accepting success.

[Ignatz]

I think it was the late great Vince Lombardi who said, "If winning didn't matter, we wouldn't keep score, would we?"

In a tournament, we keep score. In dojo training, we do not. So I echo Gibbo's statment that sometimes thinking about winning is appropriate and sometimes it is not.

[tantadi]

If thinking about winning and loosing makes you gain something, I'm all for it. But often it is emotional connected to fear and doubt, the poisons. Which is something that I don't associate with the real good competitors, who often are very cool headed and rational types. Sure their goal is to win, but the focus is upon performing as well as they can at any given moment of the competition.

[Genya]

Shiai is the only place where I think of winning and I think it´s ok. But if you think about winning every time you do ji-geiko it just isn´t good.

[The great I AM]

If thinking about winning and loosing makes you gain something, I'm all for it. But often it is emotional connected to fear and doubt, the poisons. Which is something that I don't associate with the real good competitors, who often are very cool headed and rational types. Sure their goal is to win, but the focus is upon performing as well as they can at any given moment of the competition.Thats not entirely true. I had the oppourtunity to speak to Eiga after the last WKC and he said all he was thinking about was taking ippon. I've spoken to other people at his level, and they also speak of winning and losing, more often than you think, and many of them echo'd Eiga's line about thinking about taking "that ippon" and concentrating heavily on doing so. This seems to me very connected to winning. And surely perofrming your best in the compeitition is all about being able to win.....? On the flip side to that, take a look at a video of Hirata in the final of the WKC team event last time round. After he lost ippon it didn't look to cool and rational. Just an example.

As far as emotions and feelings go, you forgot confidence and ambition. Neither poisonous and both (to me at least) essential qualities in a kendoka, at least when they have their hat on.

Maybe I'm just a little confused by what you're writing, but I just don't get what you say in that post. Sorry.

[bobdonny]

But if you think about winning every time you do ji-geiko it just isn´t good.
I think your sensei may have issues with that ;)

[Ignatz]

I see Tantadi's post as a concern about or fear of losing. This is different, in my view, that thinking about winning. If you fear losing, you have already lost.
I think that if I ever get to the point where I go into competition thinking "Well, I'm just going to do my best", rather than "I'm gonna take your freaking head right off" then perhaps it is time to give up competition.

[The great I AM]

I think that if I ever get to the point where I go into competition thinking "Well, I'm just going to do my best", rather than "I'm gonna take your freaking head right off" then perhaps it is time to give up competition.I agree with this more than I can express! Thats the time to don the white armour and take up gyaku jodan!

[Ignatz]

and now for something almost completely different.
Gibbo, I finally got up with Horiike after the NYC tournament, he passed his yondan (of course) and was happy to hear that you were asking about him. Of course I think he had been drinking.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program

[The great I AM]

Of course I think he had been drinking.Thats just mean!

Please give him my congratulations when you catch up with him. Ta!

[Ignatz]

Thats just mean!
just kidding sweety pie.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm not sure there is such thing as talent.I'm not trying to put down the value of hard work, and I'll be the first to tell you that those who work hard and perservere can exceed the talented and lazy but trying to say there is no such thing as talent is silly.

Take a look at Lance Armstrong, for example. Now there's no denying that he worked hard to accomplish his goals, but it's also true that he was born to ride a bike. His aerobic capacity is due to him being a genetic freak, and then working like a maniac to build on that. Champions are built on a combination of hard work and talent, not just one or the other.

[Mudansha]

Winning and scoring ippon are two different things - just because Eiga always works towards getting "that one ippon" doesn't mean he's always thinking about "beating" the opponent - I am confident that he trains to get that ippon for himself as a personal goal, one perfect ippon per practice is a very difficult thing. He tries to improve himself this way, just like the rest of us, although through a slightly more specific approach. Its not some ego-driven "keep-score-of-how-many-ippons-i-have" thing.

Again, confidence is good, but when you're all kakari-geiko'd out, its sure as hell not what keeps me going.

[bobdonny]

I'm not trying to put down the value of hard work, and I'll be the first to tell you that those who work hard and perservere can exceed the talented and lazy but trying to say there is no such thing as talent is silly.

Take a look at Lance Armstrong, for example. Now there's no denying that he worked hard to accomplish his goals, but it's also true that he was born to ride a bike. His aerobic capacity is due to him being a genetic freak, and then working like a maniac to build on that. Champions are built on a combination of hard work and talent, not just one or the other.

Well, perhaps, by you explanation of the above, what you consider talent is what i consider aptitude!

I.e. IF someone who has never seen, played or considered kendo picked up a shinai they would be useless. Hence i dont think its possible to have a talent for something. But they could have an aptitude for generic physical activity and hand eye co-ordination - and they could learn kendo pretty quick, and that i believe would not be talent, make sense?

[tantadi]

Winning and scoring ippon are two different things - just because Eiga always works towards getting "that one ippon" doesn't mean he's always thinking about "beating" the opponent - I am confident that he trains to get that ippon for himself as a personal goal, one perfect ippon per practice is a very difficult thing. He tries to improve himself this way, just like the rest of us, although through a slightly more specific approach. Its not some ego-driven "keep-score-of-how-many-ippons-i-have" thing.

Again, confidence is good, but when you're all kakari-geiko'd out, its sure as hell not what keeps me going. Yep, that was what I was trying to say. It is something you see in sports psychology, focus on each task (which will be the ippon cut in kendo). The task comes before the outcome. It is also comparable with what they call 'ikken hisatsu' in shotokan karate, each hit/kick must be performed with all you've got. (Ignatz: Which is what I mean with "do your best").

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well, perhaps, by you explanation of the above, what you consider talent is what i consider aptitude!

I.e. IF someone who has never seen, played or considered kendo picked up a shinai they would be useless. Hence i dont think its possible to have a talent for something. But they could have an aptitude for generic physical activity and hand eye co-ordination - and they could learn kendo pretty quick, and that i believe would not be talent, make sense?Talent and aptitude are pretty much the same thing so you are just getting into semantics now. If you want to interpret talent as able to do something immediately, then nobody has talent for anything. But I've instructed hundreds of beginners and I can tell you that there are some that have more initial ability than others. Mind you I deal with adult beginners mostly, and they bring the sum of their athletic/life experience to the table so it's hard to say what is raw talent and what is already developed athletic ability. But with the few (couple dozen) kids I've taught, and also my experience as a parent of kids in other sports, I see that some kids are just gifted. Again, it is very important what they do with that gift.

Also, there is the issue of what are your own talents? I believe that every one of us has something that we can do well with. I've never been that gifted in traditional sports involving running or throwing, but I do OK with a stick in my hands. I see many students who join who are similar to me - maybe not so good at football, but much better with kendo. Of course it may be simply that they are more inspired to work at kendo. But I think it is also largely finding what it is that you are best suited for.

[Ignatz]

We were in a team competition recently and on my team everyone did their best that day and we lost. Everyone went in with one thought, win. When the match started, nobody considered for a moment that they might lose. If we meet the same team again everyone will think the same.

There is nothing wrong with losing but there is something wrong with giving up and that is what I am hearing. To say "thinking about winning is all about ego" is just an excuse for losing.

I don't want you to do your best in competition, I want better than that. I want you to break through to a new level that you never knew existed.

[JByrd]

now i'm wondering, can a hard worker really go head to head with someone who has pure talent?


How much talent? How much hard work? I think you see what I mean.

There's no point in fretting about talent, you can't change how much you have anyway. I only worry about how much hard work I can do, that's something I can change.

[JSchmidt]

Take a look at Lance Armstrong, for example. Now there's no denying that he worked hard to accomplish his goals, but it's also true that he was born to ride a bike. His aerobic capacity is due to him being a genetic freak, and then working like a maniac to build on that. Champions are built on a combination of hard work and talent, not just one or the other.

His bout with cancer very drasticly changed his muscle composition. Prior to that, he was far too bulky to effectivly deal with the mountains.

[Ignatz]

(Ignatz: Which is what I mean with "do your best").
That's why we have training, so you can do those things without thinking. On game day I want you to go above and beyond. Put on your war face and break through.

[tantadi]

We were in a team competition recently and on my team everyone did their best that day and we lost. Everyone went in with one thought, win. When the match started, nobody considered for a moment that they might lose. If we meet the same team again everyone will think the same.

There is nothing wrong with losing but there is something wrong with giving up and that is what I am hearing. To say "thinking about winning is all about ego" is just an excuse for losing.

I don't want you to do your best in competition, I want better than that. I want you to break through to a new level that you never knew existed.
It works best for me when I think about what I will do. (Men ippon).
From experience from other martial arts, I'd say that 'win or lose' has little to do with the higher levels. But persistence and will, and heart has everything to do with it.

[MiChuhSuh]

Thinking about losing or winning is all connected with bad ego. Focusing upon doing what you can, as good as you can, with as much conviction you possibly can muster, is better.

You say "focus upon doing what you can"

Well, how about:
1. Believing that you can win
2. Focusing on doing what you can (winning)

There is a difference between a bad ego and working with the belief of victory.

After losing a bad ego would say "You must have cheated" or "I was having an off day"

On the other hand, a self-confident believer would say "I could have won, but I guess I didn't try hard enough. I'll try harder next time and train will all my heart!"

[MiChuhSuh]

Im my opinion a healty attitude and appreciation of winning and loosing is paramount.

You cant focus on what you can do, without realising what you cant. Embracing failure is an important benchmark to achieving success, its really very important to fail, but more important is understanding why, or reflecting on your failures.

It certainly is not connected with a bad ego. Where i reckon you are going with the ego, is people that cannot accept loosing (and cheat, whine etc) but i'd argue that if they really cant accept loosing they haven't a hope of accepting success.

haha kindred souls

I just responded the basically same way

[MiChuhSuh]

As far as emotions and feelings go, you forgot confidence and ambition. Neither poisonous and both (to me at least) essential qualities in a kendoka, at least when they have their hat on.
I was just about to reply the same way :ninja:

"That would contradict the prerequisites to belief in victory, confidence and determination"

Wow I'm learning a lot today, great minds really do think alike

[MiChuhSuh]

I see Tantadi's post as a concern about or fear of losing. This is different, in my view, that thinking about winning. If you fear losing, you have already lost.
I think that if I ever get to the point where I go into competition thinking "Well, I'm just going to do my best", rather than "I'm gonna take your freaking head right off" then perhaps it is time to give up competition.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you.

[MiChuhSuh]

I don't want you to do your best in competition, I want better than that. I want you to break through to a new level that you never knew existed.

Man I wish my high school coach was more like you haha

[tantadi]

You say "focus upon doing what you can"

Well, how about:
1. Believing that you can win
2. Focusing on doing what you can (winning)

There is a difference between a bad ego and working with the belief of victory.

After losing a bad ego would say "You must have cheated" or "I was having an off day"

On the other hand, a self-confident believer would say "I could have won, but I guess I didn't try hard enough. I'll try harder next time and train will all my heart!"

Try reading some basic sports psychology. About how to get the best of your performance.

[MiChuhSuh]

Okay. Can you just give me a quick idea of what I should expect to find in sports psych?

[The great I AM]

Try reading some basic sports psychology. About how to get the best of your performance.I have done, and it goes a hell of a lot deeper than simply "I must do my best" as does succeeding in something like kendo.

There is god knows how much out there about positive thinking, confidence, mental preperation, physical preperation, practise and god knows what. One of the big things is also "Desire to win/succeed/achieve" is it not? I think simply saying "read some basics sports psychology" is a mis statement. Because A) there is no such thing.... and B) it involves more than just thinking about doing your best.


just because Eiga always works towards getting "that one ippon" doesn't mean he's always thinking about "beating" the opponent I'll bet you that he is......
Its not some ego-driven "keep-score-of-how-many-ippons-i-have" thing.I don't recall writing that:

I had the oppourtunity to speak to Eiga after the last WKC and he said all he was thinking about was taking ippon. I've spoken to other people at his level, and they also speak of winning and losing, more often than you think, and many of them echo'd Eiga's line about thinking about taking "that ippon" and concentrating heavily on doing so.Not keeping score, but focussing on taking that ippon, one at a a time. Which is all about winning, or at the very least beating the guy in front of you, is it not? If its not about winning, and while hes in the tokuren hes not training to beat people, then what would you surmise is his aim in his training, if not to be stronger and beat people? Maybe now he seems to retired from "active duty" so to speak it may be different now, but I'm sure winning and beating people was on his mind, otherwise why practise 3 times a day and put yourself through the grinder, enter all those competitions, and in his own words be a little cut up when not selected for the knockout fights in the 97WKC? It kind of seems to point to a way of thinking that winning and victory seems to be a big part of.

Now I'm not saying that everybody is like this, but what I am saying and that I have from the start is that there is a time when thinking about winning and beating some one, or taking ippon (ie beating them....) is hugely important, and there are some people out there who train purely for this, and some people who train to be stronger and to beat people. And then again, there are those that don't. But to the ones that do, winning IS important to them, not just simply doing their best kendo. Look at Harada Satoru. Whilst I'm not going to say what he did last year in the All Japan's was / wasn't his best kendo, it was very obvious just by looking at his face, even a second or two after the ippon, that winning that competition was massively important to him.

[MiChuhSuh]

DC posted these in the Philosophical Quotes thread:


"Do or do not. There is no try."

- Yoda

"Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in. "

- Uncle Hub from Secondhand Lions

[MiChuhSuh]

The greatness of youth! :cool2:

http://www.errolmorris.com/commercials/nike/nike_punkrunner.html

[MAZ77]

[QUOTE=The great I AM]I'll bet you that he is......I don't recall writing that:
Not keeping score, but focussing on taking that ippon, one at a a time. Which is all about winning, or at the very least beating the guy in front of you, is it not? If its not about winning, and while hes in the tokuren hes not training to beat people, then what would you surmise is his aim in his training, if not to be stronger and beat people?

It is to overcome his fear of himself and discontinue doing kendo for the benefit of others. It was to prove to himself he could hit the best point at the perfect time based on his ability and training. It was never about beating someone else, it was about proving his kendo to himself and to himself only. I can guarantee you if he scored only one ippon like that and the othe guy scored 2 half assed points, he would have been just as satisfied with his kendo.

I believe this the correct attitude to take in competition. At the end of the day, who cares if you beat the other guy if you have not proven anything to yourself.

[Ignatz]

I agree with everything you said Maz. I also would like to think that in my day to day training and in my life I am doing exactly that. I want to be a better person because of kendo. I want to help other become better persons.

That being said, when I decide to go to a tournament I start to ramp up a couple of months before and taper at the right time. When I step onto the court I have already been eyeballing my opponent and continue. I look him right in the eyes and say "Alright sparky, whatcha got for me today?"
Then I step into the court, bow, take my three steps and as I do I say, "Alright suckka, your heads coming right the f off."

And sometimes it does. And when it doesn't the other guy knows he was in a battle. I never once think "just do your best". I'm going to do better than my best. And when it is over I will congratulate my opponent, regardless of who got the most points and later I will drink some beer and enjoy the company of other kendo nuts.

[MAZ77]

I agree with everything you said Maz. I also would like to think that in my day to day training and in my life I am doing exactly that. I want to be a better person because of kendo. I want to help other become better persons.

That being said, when I decide to go to a tournament I start to ramp up a couple of months before and taper at the right time. When I step onto the court I have already been eyeballing my opponent and continue. I look him right in the eyes and say "Alright sparky, whatcha got for me today?"
Then I step into the court, bow, take my three steps and as I do I say, "Alright suckka, your heads coming right the f off."

And sometimes it does. And when it doesn't the other guy knows he was in a battle. I never once think "just do your best". I'm going to do better than my best. And when it is over I will congratulate my opponent, regardless of who got the most points and later I will drink some beer and enjoy the company of other kendo nuts.


There is nothing better than drinking beer with other kendo nuts. Its funny because 99% of the time, we end up talking about things other than kendo.

[tantadi]

I agree with everything you said Maz. I also would like to think that in my day to day training and in my life I am doing exactly that. I want to be a better person because of kendo. I want to help other become better persons.

That being said, when I decide to go to a tournament I start to ramp up a couple of months before and taper at the right time. When I step onto the court I have already been eyeballing my opponent and continue. I look him right in the eyes and say "Alright sparky, whatcha got for me today?"
Then I step into the court, bow, take my three steps and as I do I say, "Alright suckka, your heads coming right the f off."

And sometimes it does. And when it doesn't the other guy knows he was in a battle. I never once think "just do your best". I'm going to do better than my best. And when it is over I will congratulate my opponent, regardless of who got the most points and later I will drink some beer and enjoy the company of other kendo nuts.

Maybe it is an cultural thing? IMO american often uses big words and maybe "the best" will not mean anything to you? But since you agree with MAZ77 which describes the non ego driven attitude to comps and training, it seems like you are just twisting words.

[Fonsz]

But since you agree with MAZ77 which describes the non ego driven attitude to comps and training, it seems like you are just twisting words.
Well what would you expect from someone who is in the law profession?:tongue:

I agree with everyone that they're there to win. Nobody likes to lose, but if I lose with one "beautiful" ippon against 2 half assed ones I would be happy to know that I did my own Kendo. Having said that I think it is imperative to overcome the half assed ones out there. If you can do that with your own Kendo then I suppose you're on your way to immortality.

[Fonsz]

On an afterthought, I have heard Gibbo repeating kote maybe eight times (after a kote) while he was being chased by the kote'ed person. Someone here mentions that he does this as well (the repeating part).
I wonder if the chant is to convince yourself, the opponent or an eventual shinpan? Just wondering?:confused:

[Anjin-san]

It was never about beating someone else, it was about proving his kendo to himself and to himself only.

By that rationale, he didn't need to go to a taikai. If the only source of feedback you're getting is yourself, you don't even need to go to a dojo to practice kendo.

[The great I AM]

It was to prove to himself he could hit the best point at the perfect time based on his ability and training. It was never about beating someone else, it was about proving his kendo to himself and to himself only. Weeeeeeeell, you can think that,but I think there was a little more on the line there than Eiga san's own personal battle, and he knew that.
I can guarantee you if he scored only one ippon like that and the othe guy scored 2 half assed points, he would have been just as satisfied with his kendo.Uh-huh. Well, you believe that if you wish, but I find that absolutely impossible to believe. Sorry.

[JSchmidt]

I can guarantee you if he scored only one ippon like that and the othe guy scored 2 half assed points, he would have been just as satisfied with his kendo.

Nonsense. He wanted to win. Nothing else. That's the extra bit that seperates the winners from the losers, all other things being equal: Who wants it most.

[Ignatz]

Maybe it is an cultural thing? IMO american often uses big words and maybe "the best" will not mean anything to you? But since you agree with MAZ77 which describes the non ego driven attitude to comps and training, it seems like you are just twisting words.
I am clearly separating day to day training and competition (including competition preparation)
Why do you consider the will to win in such a pejorative sense? I go out to win and have no thought or fear of losing.
When you say "I practice karate and I just want to do my best in competition" I think of someone diligently practicing her forms and going out and doing the best she can to do them perfectly. In kendo, there is another person there trying to take your head off. You better put your war face on.

If I scored a perfect ippon and my opponent got two half assed ones, I would be pissed. I would get over it quickly though. The will and desire to win is not all encompasing but on that day at that time it is #1. Like Gibbo said, or kinda said, everything in it's place and in it's time.


Well what would you expect from someone who is in the law profession?:tongue:
Don't pick on me Fonz, I'm very sensitive.:D Haven't heard from you in a while and was just thinking that yesterday. I'll send you an e-mail today.

[samurai999]

But I've seen many talented people quit, and the less talented slog on and accomplish things for themselves. I'm proof - I'll never play for Canada, but I'm a lot better player than all the others that have quit along the way.


If you put that quote in the context of kendo, then maybe they had a good reason to quit? Lot of ppl quit because they are more interested in something else. Don't forget that kendo is not a career to most ppl and a lot of ppl are dedicating as much as they can to kendo. When we are pushed to dedicate more than we can to kendo and it starts to detract from things like your real career, or if ppl just want to head in another direction and focus on something else, then thats the time ppl quit.

Tim

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't really much care why people quit - they have their own reasons, valid to them, and it's not up to me to question it. My point is that they do quit, much more often than not, and those of us that keep slugging get better.

[samurai999]

Where I'm coming from is, I know ppl who quit who liked it and were good at it. They wanted to continue but realized that they couldn't because of other commitments. Its not like they quit because they downright hated it, couldn't hack it anymore, or got sick of it. I did not dedicate my life to kendo and they didn't either.

But on the other hand, I'm sure that if they had the time to practice again, they'd come back without a question.

Tim

[Fonsz]

Where I'm coming from is, I know ppl who quit who liked it and were good at it. They wanted to continue but realized that they couldn't because of other commitments. Its not like they quit because they downright hated it, couldn't hack it anymore, or got sick of it. I did not dedicate my life to kendo and they didn't either.

But on the other hand, I'm sure that if they had the time to practice again, they'd come back without a question.

Tim
If I may be so bold. First of all you are totally right, but having said that the hardest part of Kendo is showing up for practice. If you really want to there's always a reason to show up for practice. There's more in life than just Kendo of course but the few hours that we get to practice shouldn't be such a big deal in the life of a modern human.

I mean some people spend their leisure time behind a computer or on the couch watching TV. On the other hand if you don't want to show up for Kendo you can also find a valid reason for not showing up. The dedication of showing up and the duty that you eventually have to the dojo is in my opinion the reason and the rewarding feeling for showing up. The quest for the perfect 'men' is a long and arduous one, as Neill can attest.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well, I'm not so hardline as all that. If your job or other serious commitments directly conflict, then I understand. I'm not critical of the people who quite for "lesser" reasons, either - it's a personal decision and none of my business. However the bottom line is they're not in the dojo.

[MAZ77]

Weeeeeeeell, you can think that,but I think there was a little more on the line there than Eiga san's own personal battle, and he knew that.Uh-huh. Well, you believe that if you wish, but I find that absolutely impossible to believe. Sorry.

The fundamental problem is we are trying to decide whether Eiga was trying to win or perform his best kendo. Since that appears to be that main focus, one cannot truly delve into his mind and make an assertion either way.

It can be derived from his discussions within his documentary on his WKC progression, that he essesntially explained the fact that he was doing kendo to prove his kendo to himself. By default he won in his mind (And competition)by this principle. When he took the attidude of only winning or losing, it did nothing for him both professionally and personally.

[MAZ77]

Well, I'm not so hardline as all that. If your job or other serious commitments directly conflict, then I understand. I'm not critical of the people who quite for "lesser" reasons, either - it's a personal decision and none of my business. However the bottom line is they're not in the dojo.

Have you ever encountered the students that decide to return after an extended period of time, lets say 6months-1year, that had no excuse when they quit or when they came back and then quit again?

That is the worst.

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's really the only time I get upset - when they quit and come back, quit and come back. Then they're really wasting my time.

[JBouch]

MAZ77, I think you may be reading a little too far into what Eiga sensei was describing. At his level of kendo, shinpan wouldn't anticipate - or expect - less than the best from him when judging. He was trying to win; that much is pretty much a given. I don't think anybody enters such a tournament without at least wanting to win. However, in order to win, he also had to execute his best kendo. What I see him referring to is his approach, his realm of focus in order to achieve the goal he had set for himself. Check out the link in the multimedia section of the forum for the national geographic documentary about the hachidan test. You'll see one of the testers, Ishida sensei, had been facing the problem of mental approach. That might shed some more light on the issue.

[Ignatz]

If I may be so bold.. . . bunch of good stuff. . .
I would like to add a bit to this if I may. I often tell my clients that life is a series of choices. You choose one thing or another and that sets in motion factors that create another choice and another and another. Or you could choose not to choose and then someone else makes the choice for you. Invaribly you will find that any choice you make for yourself is better than one made for you.

When we talk about "career" I wonder if that is just a choice that others have made for us. What is the difference between "career" and what television might tell us is "the new black"? Sure, if you are good at science, maybe you will find cure for cancer or invent some wonderful thing that will make life better for many people and you should pursue that. That does not mean that you should buy into the "corporate culture" and have your life completely revolve around work or making a living to the exclusion of living.

I say this because I spent several decades devoting myself to helping a class of people that had been oppressed. I was doing good. The only thing that I would change if I had the chance would have been to find more time to spend with my wife and family. Balance is the key I think.

In another thread about philosophical quotes someone mentioned "Moderation in all thing, including moderation." First time I heard that was in the book "Lost Horizon" about a bunch of people who crash their plane in the Himilayas and find ShangriLa where everyone lives forever and everything is wonderful. Or is it.

Anyway, before we devote ourselves to career make sure that it is really your choice and not just one you think is yours.

[bobdonny]

actually: On the whole winning and loosing mentality of kendo... Came across this.


Fate is in Heaven, the armor is on the breast, success is with the legs. Go to the battlefield firmly confident of victory, and you will come home with no wounds whatever. Engage in combat fully determined to die and you will be alive; wish to survive in the battle and you will surely meet death. When you leave the house determined not to see it again you will come home safely; when you have any thought of returning you will not return. You may not be in the wrong to think that the world is always subject to change, but the warrior must not entertain this way of thinking, for his fate is always determined.


Uesugi Kenshin (1530-1578)


The warrior doesn't care if he's called a beast or a dog; the main thing is winning.

Asakura Norikage (Soteki) (1474-1552)

[taganahan]

How much talent? How much hard work? I think you see what I mean.

There's no point in fretting about talent, you can't change how much you have anyway. I only worry about how much hard work I can do, that's something I can change.

when you said, "you can't change how much you have anyway", i'm thinking that you believe everything in this world is pre-destined.

~taganahan

[Washington]

Well.. your asking about extremes.. Hard Work (assuming a lack of natural talent) and Talent (assuming a lack of work ethic).. In that forum my money's on the Hard Work person.

In my experience with sports and music your "talent" people generally get bored and move on to something else. Or.. see little point/challenge to excel.

Lots of talent might also hamper proper technique. An example would be I taught myself music for years before I started taking lessons to fill in the gaps I couldn't figure out. As a result I still hold a pick wrong to this day. I have the talent to make it work "wrong". Works in music but technique is the name of the game in kendo.

I'm thinking enough talent to keep up with class and excel a little bit.. but lacking enough talent that you need the hard work behind it to bring it out would be the ideal mix.

[Fonsz]

I would like to add a bit to this if I may. I often tell my clients that life is a series of choices. You choose one thing or another and that sets in motion factors that create another choice and another and another. Or you could choose not to choose and then someone else makes the choice for you. Invaribly you will find that any choice you make for yourself is better than one made for you.


This sounds very philosophical and oh so true. While we are not here to admire each others' deep thoughts I think you got a point there.
What I noticed along the way is that Kendo is not something that I'm doing but it's become an integral part of who or what I am. I always joke that I'm doing it for so long, I should be very good at it. Alas that is not the case. But I like to think that I have to continue because I have to.
Shima Sensei from Kyoto whom I have the honor to call my friend is 80 years now but still practices and teaches Kendo. I don't suppose he will become the next all Japan Champ or something but I still admire his energy and dedication to something abstract while hitting each other over the head.
I always have this on my mind when I hear people whine about the odd hours that they spend in the dojo instead of shopping with their wife/girlfriend or something else.
To get back to Ignatz's philosophy it's a choice that I made and hopefully others have as well.

[JByrd]

How much talent? How much hard work? I think you see what I mean.

There's no point in fretting about talent, you can't change how much you have anyway. I only worry about how much hard work I can do, that's something I can change.



when you said, "you can't change how much you have anyway", i'm thinking that you believe everything in this world is pre-destined.


I don't see how you could have made such a conclusion, based on what I wrote. I said that I can change how much hard work I do. The amount hard work I do is my choice. I can't choose my inborn abilities (i.e., talent) any more than I could choose the day on which I was born. Does that mean I believe everything is predestined? Hardly.

[MiChuhSuh]

I heard an interesting Zen koan and realized something.... does the question matter?

Regardless of which is more important, if you want something you will work hard for it. If not, then you don't seem to want it enough or are too lazy, which can't bee good regardless of talent.

So no matter what work hard.

[Charlie]

"does the question matter?"

In the case of Zen koan, the question matters only insofar as it provokes movement toward enlightenment. Thus, "Does the dog have the Buddha-nature" is just as good as "What do you want for breakfast" if it provokes enlightenment or a "eureka!" moment.

[enkorat]

"does the question matter?"

Only if you are seeking an answer.

[MiChuhSuh]

And we can only seek the answer by working hard and seeing for ourselves if we can beat more talented people by training hard!

[Charlie]

By the way, MiChuhSuh, I think it's perfectly appropriate to look for lofty messages and meaning in what many consider "junk" entertainment. In other words, yes, deeper lessons on budo are certainly to be found in anime or manga, just as deep literary themes are always to be found in genre fiction such as detective, fantasy, sci-fi and even romance. Another topic, I guess, but I'm saying if you're being inspired or provoked by Nabuto then more power to you. I myself love the little kernels of budo thought to be found in the Lone Wolf and Cub series. (The writer was yondan in kendo and kyudo, I believe.)

[MiChuhSuh]

True
But specifically, this question has been around for centuries. And really the only way to find out is by believing in victory and training for it. Then see if you win or lose, and try harder and try again.

I'm just worried about people saying "should I even keep trying." This shows lack of much needed confidence.

But you're right in that everything can shed insight or provoke thought.

[Fudo-Shin]

Charlie, just a little off-track, you are a writer are you not? What is your genre? I would like to perhaps write someday also, it's funny cause I don't read Fiction but I would like to dabble in writing.

Just rare (somewhat non-existant) to find an Author who is also a Kendoka. If I should PM you about this let me know....sorry to all about the "side-question".

[Charlie]

Fudo, write me, I'd love to correspond about it. I do write. My e-mail is:

charliekondek-at-yahoo-dot-com (I write it that way so spam-bots won't get my e-mail address and send me even more junk mail than I already get).

[beinsteiner]

I don't know that much kendo, but I'm a soccer coach, so I have an opinion.

Hard work develops mental toughness, and mental toughness is the winning edge. Hard work done smartly develops skill.

[Rookie M]

IMO A natual talent for something will make picking up certain principals during training easier and perhaps give someone an edge during competition. But unless you only leave your house for shiai how much time do you actually spend competing? 99% of kendo is dojo time and by it's nature non-competitive. We may get a buzz out of scoring against our chums during Jigeiko but we are not scoring mearly practicing and learning our strengths and weakness and through our practice partners we can hone those strengths and cut away the weaknesses. Sure, feelings of success and disappointment are great learning tools but for most of the time our only real opponent is ourselves and that counts either when we cut or get cut but most it counts when we walk through the dojo door and put the gear on.
I would rather face a person with natural talent who never practices than a person with years of hard work behind them. When the two are combined you get a Gibbo which is a frightening thought.:eek:
Most kendoka will probably never fight competitivley and just enjoy the practice. We should all just give what we can and take what we need from kendo.
To quote Andres one of my dojo mates "In kendo we don't beat the crap out of each other, we beat the crap-ness out out each other"
Don't worry about how talented you are or are not, just keep playing and enjoy yourselves.