Hitting zones (Men,Kote,Do,Tsuki)

[ne0r]

Hi there!

For a long time I have been wondering, why exactly these special hitting zones for kendo were chosen: Men, Tsuki, Kote, Do?

Do you know anything about it and/or can explain it to me?
Thanks!

[joekc6nlx]

Because they're considered to be instantly (or lead to instant) fatal. A men strike splits the top of the head - death. A do strike opens the body up - death. A tsuki cuts off the air supply to the lungs - death. A kote destroys the "control" hand on the sword, and leaves the sufferer open to any of the other 3 strikes.

Anything else is just waving a bamboo stick at each other. It has to be a meaningful strike, one that would have caused the death of the receiver.

[ne0r]

Hmm.. But if I'd cut his leg of it would probably be quite the same as a kote strike, wouldn't it? Or, I mean, what about cutting off the shoulder? (Samurai had even special plates on their armors to avoid this. They were called gyoyo)

[nodachi]

I think they are the best way of trying to maintain some semblence of old waza without risking our health in the process. Think of a diagonal cut to the neck... I've seen diagrams of this from old sword schools (well, online copies of documents) but that wouldn't be too safe to do now would it? It doesn't matter how good the armor is, a dead or paralized kendoka can't practice anymore, right? So I think the goal is to maintain ties to old sword arts, but keep it at a high level of safety so we can keep practicing. Remember, the aim of kendo is not perfect emulation of old sword arts anyway, but to improve our spirit so it is okay if we deviate a bit from perfect copies of old techniques as long as the overall concept is still there.

[sainueng]

Hmm.. But if I'd cut his leg of it would probably be quite the same as a kote strike, wouldn't it? Or, I mean, what about cutting off the shoulder? (Samurai had even special plates on their armors to avoid this. They were called gyoyo)

I would imagine it would be a lot more difficult to apply the same amount of damage to the legs as a kote strike. For the kote, you are aiming to cut through the wrist joint, avoiding bone. The kneecap is much better protected and much more to cut through. Another reason, in my opinion, would be difficulty in maintaining zanshin.

That said, naginata has the sune target, and I have heard rumors of kendoka, when fighting against naginata, going for that target. I think we should probably look towards koryu (of which I know nothing :p) and see if they have any attacks to other areas.

As for the shoulder, it makes sense to me as a target and I don't have a good explanation why it shouldn't be a target.

I think that in the end, the targets are made restrictive because in kendo you are no longer fighting primarily for life and death. You are, philosophically speaking, learning about parts of budo through sparring practice, both physical and spiritual. The small choice and size of targets potentially develop better physical aptitude and mental toughness. Just my 2 cents.

[verissimus]

Hmm.. But if I'd cut his leg of it would probably be quite the same as a kote strike, wouldn't it? Or, I mean, what about cutting off the shoulder? (Samurai had even special plates on their armors to avoid this. They were called gyoyo)

I think it would be somewhat difficult to reach for your opponent's leg without putting your entire upper body at risk. Perhaps these points (head, wrist, etc.) are easiest to reach with maximum damage.

[nodachi]

The shoulder would just be another location that we have to provide more armor for and make ourselves more awkward.

I also bet that if we could go for the shoulder, people's training for maintaining the center would get totally messed up as well. Just a hunch though. I am sure we could adapt, but it is a potential problem.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think it's a compromise between strokes that are representative of fighting as a whole, and safety without making the armour too cumbersome.

[Genya]

Weren´t those targets selected because they are most difficult to hit? This is what I´ve been told.

[ne0r]

And what I've seen in a history book about the samurai: The infantry, the footfolk has little leg protection except suneate. Perhaps going for the legs wasn't easy with a sword? And I think it is very risky, too.

[pgsmith]

Neil has the right of it. The current strike points are relatively easily armored, thus making them safe.

And what I've seen in a history book about the samurai: The infantry, the footfolk has little leg protection except suneate. Perhaps going for the legs wasn't easy with a sword? And I think it is very risky, too.
You've got to remember that swords were very seldom used in battle. They were a back-up weapon to be used only until one could re-arm themselves with an opponent's long range weapon.

Weren´t those targets selected because they are most difficult to hit?
No. They are actually considered the primary targets (except for kesagiri to neck which is basically the same motion as men with different target), which probably originally contributed to their use.

I also bet that if we could go for the shoulder, people's training for maintaining the center would get totally messed up as well.
It has been my experience that you still need to take the center in order to cut to the shoulder, unless you don't mind being tsukied! :)

I would imagine it would be a lot more difficult to apply the same amount of damage to the legs as a kote strike.
Not really. Leg cuts that I am familiar with are designed to sever major tendons or muscles, not cut through a joint.

Be aware that these are my thoughts based upon my own research and experiences. Others may vary! :)

[ne0r]

Thank you for your answers! They helped me alot! If someone has anything more to say, please go on!

[ne0r]

But what do you mean by "easily armored"? You do not meant that these places weren't armored heavily, do you? Because, as far as I remember, kote was armored by steel chains and plates, quite heavily in the end. kabuto (men) was quite heavy too, not speaking of the do.. Ok, tsuki was often unprotected ;D

[Neil Gendzwill]

Easily armoured, as in it's easy to design armour to protect them without unduly affecting the ability to move. Unlike, say, armouring a neck, elbow or knee.

[pgsmith]

What Neil said! :)

Ok, tsuki was often unprotected
Not usually. Most decent armor came equipped with yodare (throat protector) attached to the menpo ... http://wakagashira.com/images/mempo.jpg

[don quixote]

IM not so very HO :wink: you are missing some important points. Kendo waza are not for defeating armored opponents. Kendo is not for a battlefield, but for 'civilian' use, duels etc. where one would not wear armor.

One reason that has not been mentioned for limiting the targets is that if you can cut men well you can as easily cut the shoulder if you want. If you can cut yoko men you can cut the neck, if you kan cut right kote you can cut left too, and other parts of the arm, if you can cut do you can also cut the thigh, if you can do tsuki to the throat you can do tsuki to the face and any part of the torso and so on. So in order to make it simpler to teach and judge they choose the most basic targets, and if you know how to hit them you can with small adjustments attack 'anything' more or less.

Concerning the legs, it is really very difficult to hit that low without opening up the rest of your body to counterattack. Also with a weapon as short as a sword (a shinai is much longer than most japanese swords) you will not have a good posture when cutting for the leg (except perhaps the upper thigh).
That's what I think anyway..

[ne0r]

I've come to the very same conclusion as you, don quixote. Furthermore I think, the hitting zones have to be fatal areas because of judging. When you don't kill your opponent with a strike immediately, like with a strike to the shoulder, where you just cut into the flesh, but not cut anything off, your opponent would be weakened, but not dead. Try to transfer this on shiai ;D So we're trying to hit the very most fatal zones.. I think this makes sense..

[pgsmith]

I've come to the very same conclusion as you,don quixote ~ snip ... ~ So we're trying to hit the very most fatal zones.. I think this makes sense.
Well sir, you have heard the opinions and knowledge of someone with a lot of experience in kendo, and someone with experience in other Japanese sword arts, but you are going to come to the same conclusion as the ungraded young fellow because it matches your own desires. :) You are more than welcome to your own opinions, but I think you would actually learn more from listening closely to what your seniors (Mr. Gendzwill) have to say rather than what you think you know. Of course, that's just my opinion so it's not worth much.

[ne0r]

Hmm.. kk. You're right on this one. Mr. Gendzwill is surely right, but I think it is ok if I have another true explanation just to feed my desires ;D

[Neil Gendzwill]

No, I'm not surely right - I'm just giving the explanation as I understand it. I've never gotten a definitive answer on this question. But there's a very nice article on the development of bogu on this very site that may give you some more insight.

[ZealUK]

IM not so very HO :wink: you are missing some important points. Kendo waza are not for defeating armored opponents. Kendo is not for a battlefield, but for 'civilian' use, duels etc. where one would not wear armor.

One reason that has not been mentioned for limiting the targets is that if you can cut men well you can as easily cut the shoulder if you want. If you can cut yoko men you can cut the neck, if you kan cut right kote you can cut left too, and other parts of the arm, if you can cut do you can also cut the thigh, if you can do tsuki to the throat you can do tsuki to the face and any part of the torso and so on. So in order to make it simpler to teach and judge they choose the most basic targets, and if you know how to hit them you can with small adjustments attack 'anything' more or less.

Concerning the legs, it is really very difficult to hit that low without opening up the rest of your body to counterattack. Also with a weapon as short as a sword (a shinai is much longer than most japanese swords) you will not have a good posture when cutting for the leg (except perhaps the upper thigh).
That's what I think anyway..

The problem is that you're thinking only in 'Kendo' terms. Remember that Kendo is a relativley modern creation in the course of Japanese martial arts.