What I don't understand about Kendo

[zmcnulty]

Is how confidence is supposed to win for you.

I believe they call it "kiai". One of my sensei gave me a bit of a spill how I'm to "scare" my opponent into thinking they're going to be hit.

How ominous can one really look when they're wearing the same thing as everyone else?

I am finally starting to understand how Kendo can affect life outside of the dojo, but I fail to realize what I could _possibly_ project that would psychologically affect my opponent.


Other than my voice, which is hazukashii.

I am believing to think I am invulnerable to these things. The only time I have been mentally affected during a fight is for a few reasons:

1. Someone tells me beforehand that the person is a rank higher than my own. (We had a guest sensei from SoCal a few weeks ago...7 dan...YOW)
2. I'm nervous (shiais and such)
3. The person is just better than me, in terms of skill.

But I've never been "scared down".

As far as I can tell, if I were to randomly meet up with an opponent, and know nothing else about them beforehand, I don't see what they could really do to mentally affect me, other than kick my ass.

So what am I missing?

Thanks,
zmcnulty

[John W]

Hi,
If you subscribe to Kendo World I suggest you read the "Hanshi says" article in issue No. 2. It talks about a thing called "Kurai". I call it a "thing" because you cannot see it or touch it but you can by all means feel it -this should help to explain the mental edge you can have over an opponent.

[ben]

Hi Z,
It sounds like you've not long been in armour. Your questions are reasonable (ie, everyone has had them), but the only real answer I can give is that you should forget about your questions and just practice. These kind of questions usually just engender more questions (eg - "But I tried 'x' and it didn't work", or "whenever I do 'y', he still steps in and cuts men"). Don't limit your kendo by trying to fit it into the parameters of what you understand at the moment. My teacher's favourite saying is "Kendo is a long life" (and he should know, he's 82). A good teacher knows your kendo better than you do. Trust them and repay the debt you owe them by always training wholeheartedly, especially in times of uncertainty.
*ganbarimasho*

B.

[hamish]

Furher to Ben's comment, what you're talking about isn't something that can be forced, or practiced as such, but comes as a result of continued kendo practice.

I remember when Inoue Yoshihiko sensei (hachidan hanshi) came to New Zealand for a seminar, and just about everywhere we went, people would ask us "Who is that guy? There's something about him...."

Keep up the training!

[Will]

Originally posted by zmcnulty
Is how confidence is supposed to win for you.

I am finally starting to understand how Kendo can affect life outside of the dojo, but I fail...


You said it yourself, you just realized how Kendo can affect your life outside the dojo...so maybe you just haven't realized how psychology plays a factor in kendo yet.

[Hagakure]

Akira Kurosawa once said in the movie Sanjuro, that

"A good sword is kept in its sheeth"

A samurai of old could win before even fighting with the sheer presence of his swordsman spirit. It isn't something that can be described by conventional means, and it isn't as simple as "scaring" your opponent. It is almost like a sixth sense, fostered by participation in matches.

You must understand that in the old days of the Tokugawa, beings scared down was a run away from death, not a shiai. You cannot be scared down becase you lack something to lose in a shiai, you haveno incentive to quit. So much of samurai literature is based off risking ones life even in the face of impossible odds. Even after the samurai could no longer follow the life or death duel once the Meiji began, they still put forth great effort in exercising bravey and bringing closure to matters.

If one was to lose a fight or to run, then it wasn't just over for him, but it was over for those he protected, if this be a matter of battle or not. Those with weak spirit would not continue to defend their ideals. Spirit is easiest defined as determination, wisdom, prowess and honor. All these could quickly break an opponents resolve.

Today in Kendo, scaring down your opponent is best represented in the calling of the point being struck. But it is even better represented by when you are thrown off by another's rank, honor, etc. In a sense, the concept of spirit is still alive amongst this new brand of swordsmanship as well, and we do our best to preserve it. To learn more, I suggest either Yamammoto Tsuenetomo's "Hagakure" or Miyamoto Musashi's "Gorin no Sho: A Book of Five Rings."

I wish you best of luck, and put forth good practice to your swordsman spirit in any daily affair! :)

[damocles]

just to add my thoughts.

The four poisons of Kendo - Fear, Doubt, Surprise and Confusion -all seem to stem from a lack of confidence in your skills.

By the same token, confidence, and the ability to project that confidence in anything you do will instill those four poisons in your opponent.

Perhaps even before a shiai.

to the three points you mentioned, zmcnulty;

If you believe a person is better than you, whether by rank or experience, then your confidence in your ability to 'win' has already been lowered... and the other person didn't have to do anything.

And in shiai, nervousness is a byproduct of lack of confidece. ;)

[alexpollijr]

Gentleman

I strongly disagree with the 'romantic' version that traces an analogy back to the samurai warriors of old. Shiai matches are the sporting side of kendo, not the martial one, which is gokaku geiko, jigeiko, et caetera, in my opinion.

In these situations, there is a strong kigurai element, which is manifest not only through resounding kakego but through the entire individual , as others have said in this thread.

Such element develops differently in each individual I believe. I've seen persons who have it from almost day one, while others will take years and still lack it. While I fail to define in clear words what is 'it', frequently i think of it as a fusion of a aggressive, active and vigorous posture, strong concentration, solid offensive stance and a loud scream. All these may denote the so-called 'fighting spirit' which we revive through kendo practice.

Alas, there's people in here which have more authority over the subject than me. Jes' my two cents.

Alex polli

[zmcnulty]

Thanks to everyone for their comments.

I'll address these in order:
It sounds like you've not long been in armour.
About 14 months now.

You cannot be scared down becase you lack something to lose in a shiai, you haveno incentive to quit.

So, hagakure, I take it you agree with what I've been doing?
I mean, I don't want to ignore the entirety of kendo's history, but I think these days the stakes are lower than what most of our predecessors really practiced for. Back in the day, a lot of people practiced kendo out of necessity, right?
You go on to say:

Today in Kendo, scaring down your opponent is best represented in the calling of the point being struck. But it is even better represented by when you are thrown off by another's rank, honor, etc.

I do indeed call my points like there is no tomorrow.

Alright, I'm going to make a bit of a scenario. Let's say I'm walking down the street, fully outfitted, with bogu on and shinai in hand. And I meet another person walking down the street, equipped in the same fashion as I.
Now, I know nothing about this person...it is the first time I have ever seen him.
zmcnulty: "Hi, how are you."
opponent: "good. want to fight?"
zmcnulty: "Sure"

So, knowing absolutely nothing about my opponent, we decide to fight.
What can he do to mentally affect me?

I'm going to go back on what I said earlier, and bring samurai back into this.
I get the feeling that if two samurai meet somewhere, knowing nothing about each other, then, as Hagakure said, one of them just runs the hell away.
What am I missing that the samurai has? If neither of us have some sort of reputation surrounding us, then, other than yelling extremely loud, what can he do to cause the opponent to ditch?

Now then...
If you believe a person is better than you, whether by rank or experience, then your confidence in your ability to 'win' has already been lowered... and the other person didn't have to do anything.

Alright, so being cocky is how to win? I think confidence is affected by the opponent's skill, rather than my belief someone is a higher rank than I. Given, skill is reflected in rank, but I'm sure there's a lot of people here that aren't 1-kyuu yet and could kick my ass:)
See, now you're going to say I don't have any confidence in my abilities. But, let's say I don't know you at all, and you don't tell me what rank you are. Will my confidence be affected? No, because I don't know jack about who you are. So, all I can fall back on is my skill, since my confidence will go unchanged.
And in shiai, nervousness is a byproduct of lack of confidece.

I think there's a bit more to it than that. At my shiais, I was nervous because I wanted to win. I was nervous because my teacher hadn't trained me as to how to enter and exit the ring correctly. I was nervous because I knew there were multiple hot chicks sitting around, perhaps watching me. I was nervous because I wanted to show the Japanese people that "their" sport had potential in countries other than Japan, and try to reinforce to my teacher that I actually HAD learned something from his training.
I doubt my own abilities (well, apart from the ring entrance) would have affected my nervousness. I was nervous because I knew nothing about my opponent, not because I thought I wasn't good enough to beat him.

And finally:
While I fail to define in clear words what is 'it', frequently i think of it as a fusion of a aggressive, active and vigorous posture, strong concentration, solid offensive stance and a loud scream. All these may denote the so-called 'fighting spirit' which we revive through kendo practice.

This is probably my favorite definition thus far. Thanks!


Thank you all for your comments,
zmcnultymuch much

[zmcnulty]

Well, I was going to add something, but I got some error about not being able to edit after 5 minutes.

To sum up, I'll just go ahead and put it straight. All, Ž©•ªŽ©�g aside. Since It's kind of hard to put into words, it seems, I'll ask it in yes/no form:

Is there something I can do to mentally affect my opponent?

My sensei comes off as if there is something I can "DO".

Thanks again,
zmcnulty

[John W]

Ok in yes or no form:

Yes, you can mentally affect your opponent. It won't happen overnight though -it will most likely take years and years of hard practice, lots of fighting experience, more hard practice and by the time your finished (in theory you never really finish)- you will be an 8th Dan Hanshi and almost impossible to defeat:p

[KhawMengLee]

Could this also be one's own awareness of an opponent's fighting experience?

Take for example just the pre-fight ettiquette or when we move into sonkyo. A beginner, like myself, may wobble, have to look where the line is, bounce a liitle...doesn't this tell a lot about a fight?

Notice how composed some fighters are. Their movements into sonkyo seem so natural, like their body has been drilled to perfection.

I notice when I move up into sonkyo I usually worry about a million things but when I watch from the sidelines I notice just how composed some people are.

[ben]

What about mushin?

Not thinking about winning or not-winning. Not thinking about losing or not-losing. Not thinking about confidence or lack-of-confidence. Not thinking about your opponent's skill or lack thereof. Not thinking about your own skill or lack thereof. Not even thinking about not-thinking!

"The mind is what leads the mind astray. Of the mind always be mindful!"

;)
b

[Hagakure]

You're looking for things to be too concrete and physical. To understand Kendo, you have to understand that all of it is based off the Samurai, and even though it may be a "sporting" thing, you cheapen its life values by calling it that.

I strongly disagree that we can forget in totality that spirit is indeed prosporous in Kendo. Calling these thoughts "romantic" or cheapening them to the level of a "sport" puts to shame the very reason you should be practicing Kendo, to become a better individual, and to master greater discipline.

I did say however we have adaptations of the previous spirit, such as the calling and firm posture. But if you are after these things soley to win then you are at a lost purpose. The furthest purpose of Kendo is to further the individual. We can do this by having firm posture, but beyond that we need a firm soul.

Those who pursue Kendo as a sporting practice cannot understand this. Reading of emotion, the predictabilty of attack, the level of determination so strong one could ignore physical injury. Indeed the stakes are lower, but spirit is EVERYTHING. It is how you act in day to day situations. It is your will as a person, what your faith is and how you are willing to defend it. It isn't just yelling, or frightening your opponent, it is understanding him/her, not on a level of logic, but on one of spiritual capacity.

Those with a strong will and iron nerves stood, those with a weak resolve ran. But it isn't as simple as that. That is merely one example of contest of spirit. It is possible to have very strong skill and pathetically weak spirit (AKA, hurting the weak, being oppressive, forcing your ideas on others)

I fail to see how hard this is to comprehend when you think past physical prowess. I STRONGLY suggest you read the books I aforementioned. Miyamoto Musashi's nito style is still used in Kendo, to prove my point of similarities.

You can't see spirit as being interpreted or translated. It is yourself and what you fight for, you brand of justice.

Just give it some thought. I know you can understand what I mean, if if you think I'm crazy.

Keep up the practice!

[Hagakure]

BTW, If you would like to reflect on the PHYSICAL aspects of spirit then I guess when Mr. Polli suggested is the best example.

[damocles]

Originally posted by zmcnulty
Alright, so being cocky is how to win?

Not exactly...


Originally posted by zmcnulty
But, let's say I don't know you at all, and you don't tell me what rank you are. Will my confidence be affected? No, because I don't know jack about who you are. So, all I can fall back on is my skill, since my confidence will go unchanged.


In a match... hell even before a training session... say I bow into the dojo, there are cues that you take, even before I say 'hi'.

if I am wearing my uniform correctly/neatly?
do I walk in acting for all the world that I belong, or am I hunched over, trying not to attract attention?
Are my equipment bags well maintained/new looking/old/ratty?

And when I do gear up... is my bogu new or well worn?

If I am in front of you, do I stand and wait calmly? or am I jittery and nervous? Do I attack with conviction and speed?

All of this is not being cocky. All I know is I know I'm here to do kendo, and if I so choose I can defeat you. The trick is to get the other person, aka YOU, to believe that I can do it.


Originally posted by zmcnulty
I was nervous because I knew nothing about my opponent, not because I thought I wasn't good enough to beat him.


So you didn't know if you could beat him... so you were not confident in your abilities to defeat him regardless of his skill... so he's already defeated your mind.

If he could make you think that you couldn't defeat him... then he's already won half the match.




so in short. yes. there are things that you can do to affect your opponent mentally.

[alexpollijr]

Gentleman

Maybe I have been misunderstood, but then again, maybe not.

While yes, I must confirm that my perspective over Kendo can be classified as concrete, it's not exactly physical. There are mental and physical aspects on it, though not 'spiritual'.

Kendo in itself is a sport, or so it is classified. Also, it's a martial art due to it's origins and militaristic (henceforth martial) applications. 'Shiai' can be translated to 'match'. A 'Match' denotes a sport. Therefore, 'shiai' kendo is a sport. There are judges, points and fouls. In the world of the XVII century bushi there were no judges, no points and no fouls. In gokaku geiko, or keiko in general, there is more 'martial' kendo to be found than in matches.

It's not to say that it can be thrown in the sport basket; it's a martial art, and comes packed with a lot of things that don't belong in sport, like etiquette, zen, et caetera. Many think of these as overblown. And, sometimes, I do agree with them.

That's why I call some views romantic, specially the ones who trace analogies to the samurai warrior, as well as the idea that Nitoryu kendo is the modern version of Niten Ichi Ryu. People who have studied both say that they have very little, if any, in common.

Mental aspects are present not only in martial arts, but also in other sports. Take soccer for example, the moment of a free kick, there is this clash of wills between the striker and the goalkeeper. Confidence, tenacity, calm, the ability to read the anticipate the next movement, are all in the mental sphere, as I see it.

Maybe there ARE in fact 'spiritual' things about kendo but I don't really hope to see them before I am sixty and have reached 7th Dan

[chidokan]

is that ALL you dont understand!!! you are doing better than me!!
Seriously though, just hang in there and keep practising hard. You might not get frightened ( I didnt either when I started, I just got frustrated when I couldnt hit the other guy) but wait until you do kendo kata, tachi uchi no kurai or iaido with someone who knows what he's doing. That will make you jump!!!

Regards, Tim

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by Hagakure
To understand Kendo, you have to understand that all of it is based off the Samurai, and even though it may be a "sporting" thing, you cheapen its life values by calling it that.

I strongly disagree that we can forget in totality that spirit is indeed prosporous in Kendo. Calling these thoughts "romantic" or cheapening them to the level of a "sport" puts to shame the very reason you should be practicing Kendo, to become a better individual, and to master greater discipline.
.............
Oh comon lighten up guys.

I can assure you that a Japanese student with about eight or nine years daily experience of three hours or so would not know what the hell anybody was talking about if they mentioned spirituality. They are still at the sporting stage.

Bearing this is mind everyone is going to have considerable amount of experience under their belt before they going to master anything. Sorry to throw water on fire but If you practice a few hours a week a rough estimate says you will need about 95 years to reach the same level as one of those students.

I have always loved those four sicknesses explanation but I would rule most of them out if you are going to make any progress at all.

The other guys got a bamboo stick! Im sure as hell not frightened. Ive no doubt that he will "try" and hit me with it on a protected area, therefore there should be no hesitation in developing a strong chudan and keeping him where I want him until I deal with him. The last one is always the big one. Sometimes the opponent will try come up with a surprise. Don't be surprised. Stay calm and deal with it.

Its usually a two point match. Normally one would dead after one cut anyway. Isnt Kendo a devised method of safe combat?
One should feel safe and get on with it!

I have to agree with Chidokan. When you face someone in no armour with a bokuto who you know for sure is going to put you in hospital if you don't react quick enough it becomes a bit unnerving.
..............
Miyamoto Musashi's nito style is still used in Kendo, to prove my point of similarities.

No it's not!!!!!! If it was there would have to be a dozen ambulances outside to stretcher off the losers of each match. I would definately be tempted to thrust my shinai up under the men and hospitalize someone. Its a completely different mindset.

But the spirit one is looking for is perhaps sometimes evident as I mentioned above. To move in and calmly and unequivocably deal with the opponent.

A man who has reached hachidan at quite a young age instructed me that even in the dojo at a normal practice I should stand up a "take" that first cut. The rest he says we can put down to practice.

Hyaku

[KhawMengLee]

Originally posted by Hyaku
Miyamoto Musashi's nito style is still used in Kendo, to prove my point of similarities. No it's not!!!!!! If it was there would have to be a dozen ambulances outside to stretcher off the losers of each match. I would definately be tempted to thrust my shinai up under the men and hospitalize someone. Its a completely different mindset.

Heh...:D

I think at the moment I have too much on my mind to feel spiritual. Should I block, is my stance straight, Is my sword at the correct angle...etc a real mess

[zmcnulty]

Hi everyone thank you again for your postings.

I uhh...don't know what to say. From all the different opinions I've heard, I've gotten one step closer to where I wanted to be.

Seeing as how my original topic post was mainly revolving around spiritual/6th sense kind of stuff, I think it's kind of useless for me to try to refute anyone's points with physical evidence.
We'd all end up running around in circles too, and it would start to get all philosophical.

Thanks again!
zmcnulty

[ben]

I told y'all these kinds of questions would just lead to more questions...
:D
b.

[David J]

Originally posted by Hyaku
Oh comon lighten up guys.

I can assure you that a Japanese student with about eight or nine years daily experience of three hours or so would not know what the hell anybody was talking about if they mentioned spirituality. They are still at the sporting stage.
<snip>
Sorry to throw water on fire but If you practice a few hours a week a rough estimate says you will need about 95 years to reach the same level as one of those students.

Hyaku [/B]

I dont think we're looking at "lightening up" here, I think its just different people's perspectives, and what they are looking for in Kendo. In many countries Kendo is something that you're not that likely to fall into. As a result I think more people seek it out for more "spiritual" reasons than just sport or competition. Looking at the KendoWorld survey, most people said they would still do Kendo if there were no shiai. Obviously some see it as sport, and in some ways it can be, but for those for whom it is kenDO its something far bigger.

I dont think people should be condemned for having romantic associations with Kendo - it is still a form of swordsmanship, with much that goes with that (except the actual death etc). Do I think I'm a samurai when I'm wielding a shinai? Dont be daft. But does it stir something buried deep inside? Yes. As a westerner I think I do have romanticised ideas about it but so what? I'm sure there's plenty of South Korean kids right now who dream they're Pele.

Whether or not you call things "spiritual" is quite tricky, because thats quite a loaded word, and as Westerners its often seen as a negative or fluffy term. But I can say as a mere novice that Kendo has already had a big effect on me, and in many ways. To say that it would take 95 years for people like me to reach "that level" implies that Kendo is about success, victory, accomplishment, rather than what I do it for - peace, self-discovery, focus, respect, meditation, discipline....(and hitting people with a big stick...ahh dammit! ;)

I'm sure this is not the case for everyone of course, but for some, the spiritual side of Kendo is the very reason we do it.

For me, to quote a Buddhist phrase, "the path is the goal". If I can maintain my Kendo at my current "level" for the next thirty years I'll be very happy. Maybe I'll even achieve a dan or two on the way. Who cares?

<rei>

Dave

[Hyaku]

My sincere apologies if any was offended by my last post. The point I was trying too make was please don't expect too much from Kendo. Everyone practices for different reasons.

The best thing about it is westerners nice healthy approach to ?why? that we see in this thread. The Japanese approach to a lot of things is positively bovine. You can ask lots a Japanese why they do something and they just duuuh cock their heads to one side.

Oops I said Bovine. Sorry Dave I know you like this creatures. My Grandparents had a chicken farm and I love em. Especially their legs. Well if your down in Kyushu your are welcome to practice with my lot. A buddhist school that won the 99 All Japan Championships.

You could also pay a visit to the Dojo where Jeff Humm practiced.

Regards Hyaku

[David J]

Thanks Hyaku, that sounds cool. A visit to Kyushu might be possible - how do I find your dojo, and when do you practice?

<rei>

Dave

[Hagakure]

I think you've misunderstood my reference to Musashi's nito. There aren't actually swords or hospitalizations involved in the Kendo adaptation, but the spirit in his teachings of the use of two swords at once still remains, even though it is now in the form of two shinais. I don't think anyone will see an ambulance from two shinais. And as well the actual technique itself is watered down.

Hyaku, you make many good points. But the way I see your "Japanese student who practices Kendo" reference is that it is part of the modern tragedy that is occuring in Kendo itself. Because it is so widely taught (in Japan as well as other places) alot of its history and (for sake of argument I will use the term martial) martial aspects are being left behind. Many embark on Kendo so they can hit people with a stick and thus leave little regard for bowing, arranging armor properly, and respecting one's opponent.

I would have to agree that some embark on Kendo for different reasons, but we cannot forget that its main purpose is to further the person his/herself. Whether it be in physical prowess or, more importantly, mental disipline, one should understand that whether they relate it back to its history or not, the general message has stayed the same, and thus that is why I despise the whole idea that it is soley a sport alone. As others have confessed their ideas are concrete, I will confess that perhaps I seek more philosophical things from Kendo. But can any of you actually say that you are happy you may be right? Can you honestly believe that it is a good thing that one of our last ties to history is being severed? I'm not trying to be hostile in my view, but I refuse to believe that I can sit idlely by while the something that conveys the ideals of the past, even if only in a small way, is being gradually diluted because so many people believe that nothing preservational can be done for it. By studying Kendo it cannot be denied that we do in part preserve the history by which it is based. I believe for me that this is the "special feeling" professed in past posts.

Then again perhaps I should just go study Kenjutsu.

[Hagakure]

Hyaku, is it your school that has a Kendo team? Or by school do you mean a Kendo dojo? Also, just out of curiosity, are you born Japanese? You have VERY good English if you are, its very commendable.

It would definently be interesting to practice in a different dojo. I believe the term for practicing in different dojos is "Musho Shugyo" (please forgive my spelling) I live in Connecticut, so finding any Kendo dojo was a feat of luck at best.

Also, because others have, I feel it is only right that I apologize if I was forceful or offensive in any way with my opinions. I believe that everyone has their own approach to Kendo, and their own reasons to study it. I, for one, intend to be doing Kendo when I am an old man. I see it as a lifetime develoupment, and maybe that is why I focus on more of its life teachings. I still stand firm in my position however that I believe we must still appreciate all of the self-improvement teachings Kendo has to offer, and I will always to my very best to preserve what I believe to be some of the truest form of idealism. That's my approach to Kendo, and is the spirit in which I seek out my self-improvement.

[Hagakure]

"The link between Zen and Kendo demonstrates two ideas, that by participating in such an art we can transcend what is beyond the real and direct aspects of Kendo and develoup our own spiritual view. The second is that to gain this view we must become immersed in the art and gradually build upon our skill. This is what many generations of swordsmen thought, some put it in Zen-like terms some did not. But they all refered to this 'added dimension' that was strived in the study of any martial art.

Ultimatley they could only hint at it, since true effect on life and spiritual gain can only be found by practice that unites the mind, body and spirit. The practice we search for in Kendo.

Which is as good a place to end our disscussion as any. That to take part in this trancendence, we must partake in the moving meditation of Kendo, and that only by practicing Kendo can its true significance begin to be appreciated.

That by accepting discipline we are liberated
In a rush of conflict we find calm
In the pursuit of self-perfection we are joined by others
And that only by learning to pick up the sword
Can we develoup the wisdom to put it down again"
-John Donohue, KENDO COMPLETE

I realize I have three posts in a row, but I would like to share this quote to you, as I think it explains the aspect of Kendo of which I speak.

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by David J
Thanks Hyaku, that sounds cool. A visit to Kyushu might be possible - how do I find your dojo, and when do you practice?

School is Ryukoku Gakuen in Saga.

Dojo practices seven days a week. Early September is cultural/althletic days. After that its normal practice. Call me on 88 (Japan code) (0)952 28 0509 or

email sword@po.bunbun.ne.jp

Hyaku

[Hyaku]

Hello Hagakure

This old man has been practicing for more than a few years now and has made his Nihon Budo his one of his lifes interests.

The quotes you show were also written by Taisen Deshimaru's book about Kendo and Zen.

Your information about Nito Kendo as a watered down version of Musashi's Nito is news to me. As a practicing member of the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu and a representive of Saga Prefecture Teachers Kendo association I can find no physical resemblance.

I minimal situation would mean something like thrusting a short or long shinai hard up and under the men as someone approached to attack. Hyoho Niten is the two heavens way of strategy. The Nito waza contained within it is not a fundamental technique. You have to learn to use one sword before you use two. And attacks are made to unprotected areas.

Nito Kendo interests me. But what interests me more is anyone who considered experienced enough to judge it.

I can't see how you can look at Kendo as a tragedy. The boys/girls without doubt are very well versed in politeness and ettiquette. They leave school and put this stronger than average will to try, succeed and improve into some other channels. They start kendo when they are far too young to even spell the word philosophy.

Most of all they understand the basic concepts. While someone is standing being philosophical they will hit you over the head. Its best just to get into that dojo and get on with it. Hopefully in time the philosophy will take care of itself.

Regards Hyaku

[ben]

Hyaku,

If you are interested in nito, I mentioned in the thread on jodan that Toda sensei recently visited Melbourne to instruct nito kendo. Forgive me I can't remember his first name but he is very well-known, 8 dan, a former all Japan Champion, and is connected to Keio University's ken yu kai. Anyway he has had to do a lot of his own research on nito in kendo, in fact it seems to have become his life's work. He is one of the few with enough knowledge to be able to judge. He is a very interesting man with a genuinely inquiring mind. If you ever hear of an opportunity to train with him I would encourage you take it.

:)
b

PS now that I think about it, I seeem to remember a QT movie elsewhere on this site of Toda sensei at the Kyoto taikai.

[Hyaku]

Id love to meet him

Hyaku

[Hagakure]

Hyaku,

Sorry! I most certainly didn't say Kendo is a tragedy. What I was replying to was when you said how a Japanese student studying Kendo doesn't really know its history or philosophy. That I see as tragic, I think it is tragic that no one reiforces the more historical aspects of Kendo. Thus I think maybe a little more effort should be put forth in such areas, so that these students can gain greater insight as to some of the more intagible things of Kendo. I'm pretty sure I would not be practicing Kendo if I thought it in of itself was negative. I believe that anyone studying Kendo should not be barred from learning its history just because many people today are so quick to throw it in the sport class or say that there is little room for such thought. I think that these students should be offered the chance to see Kendo as more than just its outward appearance.

Am I wrong? Was I wrong?

Just wanted to make sure I was clear ^_^

[Hyaku]

Is the history of Kendo that long? 1890 if I remember.

I should have perhaps said that most Japanese only practice in the morning and evening. The rest of the day they study Japanese language, literature, history and other subjects.

As to an awareness of other history the man who had orated Hagakure was born less than 600 meters from where they practice and less than 50 from this computer I use now. You can see the castle wall from the back of the Dojo. Not so much understand history as the fact that they are part of it.

It's your vision. The rest of us are are still trying to figure it out.

Hyaku

[alexpollijr]

I, for certain, am still trying to figure it out.

[Achilles]

"tragedy"? Don't you think you're being a bit extreme? There's nothing TRAGIC about not knowing the history of a sport. You can still be good at it and get a lot out of it. Knowing the history is nice, sure, but it isn't even close to necessary to being good at kendo.

[Hagakure]

Well, perhaps my view is "romantisized" in a sense.

I most certainly don't want to offend or start an argument, especially not with those who have been pratcing Kendo longer than I have, and I most certainly do not want any more of my words to come across wrong.

Achilles, I'm not saying that it is a tragedy people do not know the history, I think it is "bad" that Kendoka now are in a sense barred from it. As soon as they seek out the history or some intagible aspect, someone interrupts them with one thousand reasons why Kendo is different than it history. Of course we know that, we aren't killing each other! I just think it is not very good that people today are so quick to disclose something they cannot see for themselves.

Hyaku, that is so awesome that you can see the castle like that! It may not be so special there, but to a American person like myself I think it would be great just to lay eyes on the place that concieved Yamamoto Tsunetomo's work. And as much as I hate to ask anything else, what is "My vision"? I don't understand what you mean there. Do you mean I've misunderstood Kendo's purpose, or that I've missed something in my point that too many miss out on the philosophy of Kendo?

I'll sum up my view on the topic in a simply...
I practice Kendo to gain greater self-discipline. I practice Kendo to understand myself. I've always been idealistic my whole life, and the straightforward idealism of Kendo appeals to me. If I can better myself in any way through Kendo, then it has been a sucessful journey. I plan on working on Kendo my entire life, and I hope that through that, I will gain discipline my entire life. I speak of things like spirit and the like because I think I have taken the responsibility to preserve them, to the best of my abillity. I also seek them in the rush of conflict found in Kendo. I seek that trancendence, as many have before me. I seek the betterness of myself.

I honestly think this is the right way I've chosen, and I think Kendo can offer me these things. I do not believe Kendo cannot fufill my expectations, because I think it can help me my entire life.

[Hagakure]

Hyaku, you mentioned a book that I quoted by Taisen Deshimaru about Zen and Kendo. It sounds interesting, do you know the title and if there is an English translation avalible?

I went back and reread this entire thread. I hate to admit it, but I was a little abrasive towards the start. Sorry! Its just a topic I feel strongly on. I think Dave summed up my feelings pretty well (Thanks Dave!)

"But I can say as a mere novice that Kendo has already had a big effect on me, and in many ways. To say that it would take 95 years for people like me to reach "that level" implies that Kendo is about success, victory, accomplishment, rather than what I do it for - peace, self-discovery, focus, respect, meditation, discipline....(and hitting people with a big stick...ahh dammit!

I'm sure this is not the case for everyone of course, but for some, the spiritual side of Kendo is the very reason we do it.

For me, to quote a Buddhist phrase, "the path is the goal". If I can maintain my Kendo at my current "level" for the next thirty years I'll be very happy. Maybe I'll even achieve a dan or two on the way. Who cares?"

My sincerest apologies if anyone was offended in my attempt to get across this point. I won't reitterate my last post.

Regards,

Mark

[Confound]

Originally posted by Hagakure
how a Japanese student studying Kendo doesn't really know its history or philosophy. That I see as tragic, I think it is tragic that no one reiforces the more historical aspects of Kendo. [/B]

I'm going to be outright offensive here, but it's totally warranted. As much as I respect the kendou knowledge of those of you who are posting here, you are not very well versed in Japanese students, or the culture that surrounds kendou in Japan. Either stop snorting the crack already, or listen carefully while I explain what you may have forgotten, or never known.

Admittedly I study in a junior high school, in the traditional "back water" of the country, but my students are very well informed of the "cultural traditions surrounding kendou", to use a stuffy phrase. They know many famous swordsmen, most of them have read the Go Rin Sho (Book of five rings). Yes, they all know the shinsen gumi (<insert scathing commentary on kendouka who only study kendou because they like anime here>), but they also know Miyamoto Musashi and loads of other individuals i've never even heard of.

As for the other 'cultural aspects', rei and general budokan ettiquette, the students who are serious about kendou know these things. The club is about 75% serious students and 25% little morons who like to hit people with sticks. Personally, from what I've seen in the world of kendou *outside* Japan, that's a far better ratio than any you'd find in other countries. In my mind, wanting to hit people with sticks is on the same level as studying kendou because you like an anime series with a cool swordsman, or because you want to be like a character in a video game. Even those who go off on long rants about the 'samurai spirit' usually don't have a clue, but that's another rant entirely.

As the old saying goes, "If you visit a ocuntry for a week, you go home and write a book about it. If you visit a country for a month, you go home and write an article. When you live in a country, you end up writing nothing at all." Apply this to talking about the way the Japanese view kendou, compared to how long you've lived in Japan. honestly, I can't say my experiences could be generalized to all kendouka, but it should be noted that my students (they study English from me) are not at all atypical of Japanese junior high school kendouka in the prefecture, or in the Tohouku area, again from what I've seen at tournaments and joint practice sessions.

Again, I'm sure that what others have written comes from their own experience, but you get a very different view of Japan from different angles. it all depends on who you study with, and where you are. in my situation, that statement about kendouka not knowing about the history of kendou is not correct, at all.

c

[Hagakure]

Counfound,

I simply wrote "Japanese Student' because it's the reference Hyaku used. He said that a Japanese student studying Kendo wouldn't know anything "spiritual" about it, and to reach the same level as that student a foreign citizen would need 95 years of practice. Somehow we got off on a tangent about how Japanese people in particular aren't versed in the history, and that was in no way what I intended today.

Quite the contrary. I agree with you. I think it is not a problem in Japan because the people there are pretty much immeresed in their own history, so there isn't that much a need to "study" it. I can only speak from expierience, but I think that the problem is not so much in Japan as it is here in the United States (not saying anything about the people from the States here, I'm American)

Here in the States the percentage you rated as 25% is much worse. The people who do not see it as a serious comitmemnt are more numerous. We can't see castle walls or, even worse, can't read too many books on the topic either. So before you judge me and what I said so harshly, please consider that I never said anything particularly aimed at Japanese Kendoka, moreover, it was a generalzation towards a gowing group of people who participate and are not serious of it.

[Hagakure]

Originally posted by Hyaku

I can assure you that a Japanese student with about eight or nine years daily experience of three hours or so would not know what the hell anybody was talking about if they mentioned spirituality. They are still at the sporting stage.

Bearing this is mind everyone is going to have considerable amount of experience under their belt before they going to master anything. Sorry to throw water on fire but If you practice a few hours a week a rough estimate says you will need about 95 years to reach the same level as one of those students.

Hyaku

Originally posted by Hagakure

What I was replying to was when you sid how a Japanese student who practices Kendo doesn't really know its history. That I see as tragic....


Nobody here, including Hyaku and myself, was trying to make it seem that Japanese students do not know Kendo's history. What was said was misunderstood and misunderstood again. Hyaku wanted to say that everyone has a different reason for practicing, and I used his words to make my statement, that more reiforcement should be put on teaching some less tangible things. The Japanese student with 95 years of more practice was just an idle model, it wasn't a statement in of itself. Cool it, confound, nobody is trying to say Japanese students do not know its history, its just the given example of a person who doesn't know the history just so happened to be Japanese to make the "95 years" comparison.

[alexpollijr]

Oh boy

This is getting a little out of hand

[Hagakure]

Yeah alex, it was getting serious.

I made an apology if I insulted Confound via Private Messaging, and we cleared it up. I made my point for the most part above, so I won't paste my message here. He was doing an honorable thing, defending his student's dignity and I respect that, even though I wasn't trying to insult them.

Anyway, I think I've pretty much made my point. I don't have much else to say. It feels strange being so apologetic, but I must again apologize if I insulted anyone's views. They've all done the same for me and my views of Kendo.

I remember a passage from Ozawa's book, "The Definitive Guide to Kendo"
"Like the samurai of old, we both contest our opponent and respect him. In Kendo, we obiviously contest our opponents by fighting them. But we still respect what they are in Kendo for. Whatever reason they have started with this way be it for any kind of prowess, it has brought them here. We must always have respect for anothers search for discipline and reasons to study the sword."

My sincerest apologies if I failed to do this in this thread. I assume all of us have respect for each other's reasons for studying, so let's just stop the flaming, argueing etc. (even though it has made for a rather legthy disscussion ^_^)

Mark

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Confound

As for the other 'cultural aspects', rei and general budokan ettiquette, the students who are serious about kendou know these things. The club is about 75% serious students and 25% little morons who like to hit people with sticks. Personally, from what I've seen in the world of kendou *outside* Japan, that's a far better ratio than any you'd find in other countries. In my mind, wanting to hit people with sticks is on the same level as studying kendou because you like an anime series with a cool swordsman, or because you want to be like a character in a video game. Even those who go off on long rants about the 'samurai spirit' usually don't have a clue, but that's another rant entirely.

As the old saying goes, "If you visit a ocuntry for a week, you go home and write a book about it. If you visit a country for a month, you go home and write an article. When you live in a country, you end up writing nothing at all." c

Without being entirely understanding the Japanese history of budo, how can anyone be "serious about kendo"? For "anyone", I'm including people inside and outside Japan. So if "watching anime" or "looking cool" cannot be a correct starting point for the study of martial arts, what is? Not even self-satisfaction or self-development (well, this sounds more like an excuse)? Note: a starting point maening everything can be changed later on. I don't think every kendoka in Japan will have a very traditional/proper/serious reason for their kendo practice, since there are so many media (eg. manga & anime) introducing the martial arts to the younger generation.

And don't forget the lot who are not Japanese nor Asian. Why would anyone be interested in another culture, if they don't rely on the "exciting oriental" outer appearance? You will also need scholars, researchers and translators to stur up interests/support from the general public. Maybe authors of many martial arts books really want to make a fortune out of it. But if they don't exist, everyone will end up studying Japanese in a language school!

BTW, the thing about "tragedy"... You don't have to study the History of Kendo to be a very good kendoka, likewise you don't have to even do Kendo to learn about the history of Kendo. It's just a matter of personal interest. Because of Kendo's sporting nature you can still do it for the sweat. Yeah, Reigi is part of the study, but again I don't have to know the History of Rei to bow.

Still, I don't get the point of the argument... Although we certainly need more understanding... :)

[ben]

I think both Mingshi and Confound are well justified in their respective positions. I understand Confound's frustration, but I think Mingshi is right when she points out that there is no 'correct' reason for starting kendo.

Those of us who started young, started for reasons appropriate for a young person. Those who started older started for different ones. We all admire and repect the attainments of high ranking yudansha, but we shouldn't postpone our sense of fulfillment in kendo for the day when we're old. It's possible both to speak learnedly on, say, Takuan's "Fudochishinmyoroku" and love watching "Ninja Scroll". Maturity does not necessarily mean letting go of childishness.

When I was a good little shodan training in Japan a long-ish time ago, everyone commented on how "majime" or earnest, I was. Eventually I began to hate that word. It felt like an albatross around my neck. I felt like I was missing out on something. Like there was a barrier betwen me and the people around me - one of my own making.

Since then I always try and be as informal and "normal" as possible with visiting sensei.


:)
b

[Hagakure]

Good point. But how is self-develoupment an excuse? You meditate to master total control of the mind. You practice to develoup the skill of the body. And to an extent, practicing and being social betters yourself with others.

I agree with Mingshi, we shouldn't just condem anyone's reasons for starting or continuing Kendo. I also think like Ben said that seeking achivement should not be postponed.

Regards,
Mark

[Fighter]

Hello gentlemen. I am a newcomer to this place and is greatly pleased to find people who are really into Kendo. Hello again!

[Steve]

Well, I'll add my 2 cents.
When you are performing (Bogu) Keiko or watching it, have you ever noticed that sometimes one player "controls" the opponent? ie: with every movement of the shinai or of the body, the opponent "flinches" without the other attacking. That person (the flincher) is going to lose. Their opponent has broken their spirit. Confidence/Kigurai has won the match before anyone even attacks.

Another example: have you ever tried Katsugi waza? The principle of WHEN to use this ought to help flesh out how kigurai and confidence plays a role in winning a match.

Here's some philosophy that may help:

Ken wo korosu.
Ki wo korosu.
Waza wo korosu.

Your Kigurai / Confidence can lead to any of these being executed to some extent. Keep thinking on it, read as much as you can, and keep practicing hard. Be mindful when you watch high ranking kendoka pair up...you'll see it.

[James]

Zen devotees here could start a thread on how to use 'confidence' to pre-win a thread discussion.
;)
Back to original question (zmcnulty)- agree Ben also Hamish;

..isn't something that can be forced... comes as a result of continued .. practice.


short answer, yes - you can mentally affect your opponnent.
my 2 cents.. first you have to connect with your opponent, nothing mystical just developing awareness.
Agree (Hamish) maybe can't be taught this - but you can try to cultivate awareness. Asking the question - you've already started.
Before launching at them try to be aware how you feel about them.
You say you aren't scared by a new opponent, turn this around; do you ever stand in front of someone and feel 'I know I can beat this guy?'
If so, why do you think?
Do you (really) stand if front of someone with no feeling as to whether you will win?
basics + open mind + time (lots) = it will come.

To understand recursion
you must first understand recursion.

[KATSUJIN]

ooohhhhh....another person from singapore...please tell me ur name........