100% during jigeiko?

[hyuna]

The question of going 100% against smaller and lighter opponents has come up plenty of times before, but now maybe I can ask more directly:

Do women find it better when the degree of physicality is more evenly matched, or is it better when a physically large and powerful opponent lets loose?

[tantadi]

Depends on what you mean by "better". It is better in most regards because most of my opponents actually are larger and more powerful, so I have to learn how to deal with it. On the other hand, practising with people my own size can bring out some aspects that I can use against the predominantly larger opponents.

[Alison2805]

this is an interesting question. I have more fun when doing jigeiko against bigger stronger people, but I can get frustrated when I feel they are pounding me into the floor and Im not sure what to do (like someone standing there hitting you over and over, no zanshin). At the moment I feel more confident against someone my size, or my training level. No surprises there.

BUT it is 10 times more satisfying to beat someone bigger than me, and I am looking forward to the day when I can hold my own against all the guys.

[Solinde]

I don't like when people go easy on me just because I'm small.

[Alison2805]

me too, Id prefer to be frustrated that Im being beaten all the time than to feel that someone is going easy on me. I dont get frustrated very often though :)

[Lone Kitten]

I don't like when people go easy on me just because I'm small.

same here! I even tell people not to go easy on me... i can give just as good as i get!

[Paburo]

this is a very good question hyuna. there are about 10 girls in my dojo. i won't say names cause one or two might be reading this and it would be disrespectful lol.

i'm around 6'. not huge strong but rather lean so/and i try to base my kendo on speed and reflexes. not heavy "unblockable" blows, or pushing, or strong stunning tai-atari, etc. against any other boy, it's usually me who receives all the pushing and crazy tai-atari.

now having said this, from all of them 10 girls in my dojo, only one can handle me going 100% physical (as i would with another boy, no more and no less)... shes shorter but lean and strong, and has a scary fighting spirit and kiai.

the rest would rather give it up to a bigger boy-opponent. OR complain about me using brutish force??? especially a couple of them. i have to reaaally do baby kendo with those cause otherwise they'd start yelling at me for using such RUDE kendo, lol. has a girl yelled at you in the middle of jigeiko? :D

this lead me to think it was natural most girls would rather fight opponents 'their size', BUT i'm amazed at the fact that so far so good girls around here seem to have that "gimme your 100% boy/bitch, i can handle it" attitude. gotta love a girl with that kinda attitude :D <3<3<3

[Ignatz]

. . .now having said this, from all of them 10 girls in my dojo, only one can handle me going 100% physical (as i would with another boy, no more and no less)... . . .
Get yourself a ticket to New York, we have 10 girls at Kenshin-kai that would have you crawling around crying for your mommy.:cross_eye :eek: :D

[KhawMengLee]

Get yourself a ticket to New York, we have 10 girls at Kenshin-kai that would have you crawling around crying for your mommy.:cross_eye :eek: :D

Some people pay good money for that kind of special treatment.

[Ignatz]

I heard that you wrote Ann Coulter a letter too, something about baking like a dog.:grin:

[KhawMengLee]

I heard that you wrote Ann Coulter a letter too, something about baking like a dog.:grin:

Ahhh...Ann Coulter...sweet sweet Annie...what did she say about Canada the other day?

"[Canadians] better hope the United States does not roll over one night and crush them. They are lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent." - Hannity & Colmes, November 30, 2004

Ann Coulter, ladies and gentlegerms, a class act.

[tantadi]

same here! I even tell people not to go easy on me... i can give just as good as i get! IMHO it doesn't help to tell. You have to crank it up to a level where they have to take you seriously or they'll end up looking silly.

[Paburo]

Get yourself a ticket to New York, we have 10 girls at Kenshin-kai that would have you crawling around crying for your mommy.:cross_eye :eek: :D

i'd love to... but i got my vacations pretty much planned by now (which include plenty kendo events btw :D) BUT, i got a dojo mate residing in NYC... if you PM the address and contact info i will be more than delighted to forward it to him for a visit :D

best regards to kenshinkai girls <3

[Auricom22]

No punches pulled. Period, end of list. The women at my dojo are very petite and very skilled. I use my advantages in height, body mass and reach to their utmost and even then it's a tough fight. But note I said "use", not "abuse". It always irritates me to see guys get even more physical simply because of the size differential. How much skill does it take to body-check someone 5' and 90lbs when the person doing the checking is 6' 170lbs? Congrats, you understand simple physics. Now try actually doing kendo.

[ne0r]

Hmm.. OK, I actually have no jigeiko experience and I am quite new to kendo, but I'd like to tell my humble opinion...

I think that every player has his avantages. If he doesn't use them and he doesn't do jigeiko in which he really can practise how to use his advantages and improve his technique, etc. it rather won't be good jigeiko. Furthermore I heard/read many times that the higher the difference between skill the more the one with less skill will learn. So I think you should go 100% if you don't abuse your opponent. Of course, if you're really, really better than him (like perhaps, let's say, godan against 6th kyu) the jigeiko won't be any fun for the 6th kyu and if the 6th kyu doesn't have enough fighting spirit to fight the godan so he gives up in mind, nobody will learn from this lesson nor have any fun.

I hope you can understand my English^^

[EzzzE]

well this is actually something that shouldnt exist but it does. try to imagine this, what if when you're doing jigeiko to a 70 year old 7th dan. you wouldnt knock him over, but you also wouldn't be light on him.(he'll anyway make you look stupid *GGG*, been there) What it all comes down to is measured use of ones strenght. one does not train kendo to beat down people. one does not hit unnessecary hard. and if you are really advanced you should be able to win by technique, speed or understanding of kendo.

then there is another point. sometimes it helps to be taken a bit harder (hey this also happens to guys, and i'm not small or weak ^^ ) it helps us to think about how to react to it. (note i'm talking about this in a measured way , nothing that is simply useless, brutal, or anything that way). when facing somebody just hitting at you, not to point but to 'annoy' you, you need to know what to do. maybe tai atari, maybe a strong kamae. the other thing i just experienced recently was fighting someone far better than me. which he made me very clearly realise. he simple kept kamae all the time, when i attacked he either just left his shinai where it was causing it to go against the do, or he tsukied.all the time. then after i got more cautious he made the move, before i ever could react. the match endet when another tsuki got my men of my head. but i learned what to do against someone like that. don't walk into it, wait, wait for the opportune moment, that only arises when you feel him attacking. i couldnt do that because he was far better, but i learned. at least that. not that i had much of a jigeiko of course.

i think that a really advanced kendoka / sensei is also a good teacher when he stayes one or two steps above your level, sometimes shows you what he really can do, but gives you room to advance.

when you can without any effort and strenght by pure understanding defeat your oppent you have archived kendo. that was what he had done (the 7th dan).

we have one girl in our dojo and i dont see any difference one would have to take. in tai atari of course one has to feel the opponents strenghts and hold against, that is for boys too (we also have very small children and a bit junger people, so the weight/strenght ratio also aplies there). otherwise you are not triing to be extremely nice ;) you are trying to win ^^. just by fair rules. always.

[Moe-Swordsaint!]

has a girl yelled at you in the middle of jigeiko?

Loool.. Actually I was yelled at by a guy (of my level) for going 100% on him.
Hehehehe... That was fun :evil: :D

[Kitsune]

me too, Id prefer to be frustrated that Im being beaten all the time than to feel that someone is going easy on me. I dont get frustrated very often though :)


Same here, I like when my male partners go 100% with me, it hurts, it's harsh but I acctulley can learn how to fight with everyone not only lil girls like me or young people like the newest kenshis.

[Old Warrior]

Same here, I like when my male partners go 100% with me, it hurts, it's harsh but I acctulley can learn how to fight with everyone not only lil girls like me or young people like the newest kenshis.

And what about the experience for the bigger/better partner? What's the point of practicing with someone and just going out to finish them immediately or hit them every which way from Sunday? I'm sorry, I find it a waste of valuable practice time to treat my dojangmates like opponents in competition. When you see someone 2 or 3 times a week and you know you can beat them every time, why not use the opportunity to practice those techniques that you are weak in and try some new ones? What difference does it make if they score a few points? Discretion is the better part of valor. When a 95 lb. woman comes flying at me (I'm 235 lbs.), more often then not they take a battering. No one wants to be the cause of injury, especially to people you know and like.

[Kitsune]

If yuou think it's a wate of time, that's your problem, not mine.

If you just want to beat anyone when you practice during ji geiko you're not understand what it really means fighting one. And it's not decide who is the stongest or the better or the best, but learn and teach and everyone myself included can have the time for doing both and that's for the newbies and the other girls on the dojo.

Oh, and ji geiko is not the same thing as shiai, we don't fight for the points or for winning or loosing. So it's not a waste of time but the moment you can practice all that you learn but in a real combat situation.

I actully like fighting everyone in my dojo, but when I have a strong oppnent (that does not mean he's 500 pound but first dan or ikkyu) he can teach how to fight someone that is bi or dan or older than me in kendo without feeling that I'm weak or rookie.

Hope that I explain it better now.

[KhawMengLee]

And what about the experience for the bigger/better partner? What's the point of practicing with someone and just going out to finish them immediately or hit them every which way from Sunday? I'm sorry, I find it a waste of valuable practice time to treat my dojangmates like opponents in competition. When you see someone 2 or 3 times a week and you know you can beat them every time, why not use the opportunity to practice those techniques that you are weak in and try some new ones? What difference does it make if they score a few points? Discretion is the better part of valor. When a 95 lb. woman comes flying at me (I'm 235 lbs.), more often then not they take a battering. No one wants to be the cause of injury, especially to people you know and like.

Yeah...I knocked out one of my dojomates during a kakarigeiko session with a hard taiatari, I basically went for men and kept my hands straight in front and my fists slammed into her mengane...she just collapsed on the floor like a stone...and my Sempai reprimanded me...saying you train everyday with these ppl...you must know your opponent and know what to use against them...very very enlightening.

[Kitsune]

Happens all the time in my dojo, well never knock up someone uncouncious, but we sometime knock it up someone to the floor, that's normal. Once my sempai push me so hard that I fell over the floor and when I was falling he hit me men (completely legal) That teach me a couple of things about zanshin and be prepare for everything, now when I fight with him, I usually use his strength againt him.

[KhawMengLee]

Yes, in the dojo there are people who do kendo for many a reason. Some like competition and shiai and others do it for leisure. Its good to know which is which. The way I fight is on the basis of grade and attitude. If you want just a good sporting match I basically calm down and play for fun. If its competive then I switch on the full agression mode.

[tantadi]

And what about the experience for the bigger/better partner? What's the point of practicing with someone and just going out to finish them immediately or hit them every which way from Sunday? I'm sorry, I find it a waste of valuable practice time to treat my dojangmates like opponents in competition. When you see someone 2 or 3 times a week and you know you can beat them every time, why not use the opportunity to practice those techniques that you are weak in and try some new ones? What difference does it make if they score a few points? Discretion is the better part of valor. When a 95 lb. woman comes flying at me (I'm 235 lbs.), more often then not they take a battering. No one wants to be the cause of injury, especially to people you know and like.
Big doesn't mean that you can always beat the smaller. I do understand what you mean by practicing techniques if you are the better one, but that is not the same as going easy to the degree that it becomes annoying.

[tantadi]

Yeah...I knocked out one of my dojomates during a kakarigeiko session with a hard taiatari, I basically went for men and kept my hands straight in front and my fists slammed into her mengane...she just collapsed on the floor like a stone...and my Sempai reprimanded me...saying you train everyday with these ppl...you must know your opponent and know what to use against them...very very enlightening.
OT: Tai atari to the head (?) or tai atari first and then men? When I knock someone in the mengane I get told that it is something that can be avoided and if I do it, I do it on purpose. (And that is real bad...)

[Solinde]

I think it is pretty obvious that if your fighting a smaller opponent and that person just stops attacking and gives up in the middle of jigeiko, that maybe you have been going a little too hard on them. Then there is always the option to slow down and give them a few obvious openings to let them build some confidence again. That would generally happen with someone who is new to jigeiko though, and not just to small people.

I'd say, go a little easy on the newbies the first time, but not on the short people every time. How will we ever get good if you go easy on us?

[nodachi]

A lot of this discussion is focusing on the big people going easy on the small people and the responsibilities of the bigger people. What about the responsibilities of the small people? For example, take the example of super sensei who visit other clubs. They usually take a few hits to judge the peoples level before they turn up their skill to the appropriate level. The same applies for this thread. If someone is going too easy on you, you need to apply the pressure so they take you seriously. This applies to men or women. If you know the other person can practice stronger and you want their full potential, pressure them so they give you their best. If they still refuse to push harder and you know they can, pulverize them at every opportunity, take advantage of every point and openning so there can be no misunderstanding that you are serious.

[KhawMengLee]

OT: Tai atari to the head (?) or tai atari first and then men? When I knock someone in the mengane I get told that it is something that can be avoided and if I do it, I do it on purpose. (And that is real bad...)

I think my devil was switched on that day and the buzz from the previous kakarigeiko session was still ringing in my ears and I sorta went in hard and straight with the first men cut. In hindsight it would be better if i veered a little to the side instead of just bulldozing her...

When it comes to shiai though i get told the opposite. As in go in and slam them to hell.

[tantadi]

I think it is pretty obvious that if your fighting a smaller opponent and that person just stops attacking and gives up in the middle of jigeiko, that maybe you have been going a little too hard on them. Then there is always the option to slow down and give them a few obvious openings to let them build some confidence again. I don't think it is always that obvious. People give up for several reasons in jigeiko.

[Paburo]

Yeah...I knocked out one of my dojomates during a kakarigeiko session... ...I basically went for men and kept my hands straight in front and my fists slammed into her mengane...she just collapsed on the floor like a stone...and my Sempai reprimanded me...saying you train everyday with these ppl...you must know your opponent and know what to use against them...very very enlightening.

similar thing happened to me khaw... or opposite. see, i often go straight in my cuts. i WAS TOLD TO BY MY NANADAN SENSEI, so i usually end up slamming fists into someones mengane if i go full speed and theyre slower to step aside. once i did this to say, girl A, and she fell flat on her butt. i swear i didnt even use brute force, strenght or anything, just speed. and she started yelling at me! she was so angry.... it was so bloody scary. really. so i said sorry and took a mental note, never go 100% speed with girl A.

some weeks later, i'm doing jigeiko with girl A and i'm trying to be careful and all, doing my waza but obviously not going 100%. and right after kotai/ippon-migi senpai girl B comes and reprimends me for... not going 100% against girl A!!! i was like, WTF??? senpai girl B tells me to beat girl A to the max, but girl A will scream at me if i do, lol.

girls are so complicated, this is a lose-lose situation. that's why i'm looking for answers on this thread! :D

[Ignatz]

Slamming someone in the face or running them over like a bulldozer is not the same as going 100%.

[Mugu]

Talking about different size of opponents... how about kids? How do you guys usually fight with little kids. I Jigeiko with a kid about 9 years old two weeks ago and that was my first time. I almost didn't attack because I pretty much don't know what to do because I don't want to hurt him by accident since my tenouchi is not that good. I felt that I disrepected him, just not so sure how to fight an opponent that size.

But now about smaller adult opponents. Since almost everyone in my dojo are my seniors, there's no reason for me to hold back. Occasionally, I'll try a Men or something on my bigger & taller sempai and ran into him... I literally bounced back and sometimes it hurts, hahaha Besides that, sometimes I feel so tired that I have to hold back. I feel like I disrespect my opponent because everyone there should be ready to give out 100% to each other so we can learn. Just like my sensei always tell us we are here to learn from each other. If you don't pay attention or whatever during keiko, you're ruining your opponent's opportunity to learn!

[Old Warrior]

I feel like I disrespect my opponent because everyone there should be ready to give out 100% to each other so we can learn. Just like my sensei always tell us we are here to learn from each other. If you don't pay attention or whatever during keiko, you're ruining your opponent's opportunity to learn!

Forgive me, but I see a lot of this discussion falling into the category of taking yourself and kendo too seriously. Why is it disrespectful to turn up your skill to be just better than your opponent, so as to be a challenge without overwhelming them? Why does a beginner think they are being disrespected if you don't give them any chance and just dominate them? While I don't have the rank or skill to give advice, I do feel I have the obligation to try and teach through my kendo. For some reason, I have the impression that anyone who is demanding everyone go 100% hasn't been hit 2 or 3 times in a row with a solid kote. A numb hand doesn't help your practice nor does getting put on your tail. Kendo is about learning. Respect is an important part of the tradition and process, but it doesn't take precedence over the fact that learning is the goal.

[stephanie dee]

I don't like being treat gently because I am female, but at the same time I don't like it when it hurts, and in general guys hit each other quite hard, but only a few kinda soften up a little for the ladies. You can hit my men as many times as you see it open so long as I don't see starts everytime you do.

So long as the person shows control, then am good. Most people are taller than me anyway....

[Solinde]

For some reason, I have the impression that anyone who is demanding everyone go 100% hasn't been hit 2 or 3 times in a row with a solid kote. A numb hand doesn't help your practice nor does getting put on your tail.
What's 2-3 times in a row? Come on, that's part of jigeiko, and it happens all the time when you're new to jigeiko (at least it did to me :wink: ). So does 4-5 times in a row, I'd say. :wink:

A numb hand teaches you to protect your kote better and being put on your tail might teach you to keep a better kamae or to just avoid taiatari. That's kendo for you. :cheeky:

I'm not saying I can keep up with my dojo mates when they go 100% on me. I do know, though, that I learn a lot more when they do, because getting one's ass kicked every now and then is part of the experience. :D

[KhawMengLee]

Slamming someone in the face or running them over like a bulldozer is not the same as going 100%.

I agree but as we're training for WKC our coaches are teaching us to use what we have. For me, because of my size, I get told to use a very hard taiatari then follow with men or kote. This doesn't mean there's no initial hit involved I mean if I can nail the initial kote or men I'll do it.

The bulldozer attack, well...us elephants find it a little hard to stop once we get rolling...

As for the mengane thing...well, depending on my opponent I adjust to the occasion.

[Kitsune]

Forgive me, but I see a lot of this discussion falling into the category of taking yourself and kendo too seriously. Why is it disrespectful to turn up your skill to be just better than your opponent, so as to be a challenge without overwhelming them? Why does a beginner think they are being disrespected if you don't give them any chance and just dominate them?

If you got the oportunity to fight with a 7º dan a jigeiko would you like that he was easy on you because he knows more and he can bit you like that, or you would like he (or she) can go 100% because you want to learn and have a good zanshin? At leats for me, I taking the second option basicly cos you're not always will fight just for the fun of it.

When I got into my first jigeiko the first thing I said and ask was "please don't go easy on me cos I won't learn to have a good zanshin if you're relax."

Is like when you got a kid and you're playing with that kid soccer (football) and you let him win. That victory is so empty that is disrespectful for him. He must learn, as we must learn to fight with all our heart... It's the only way things can work out.

[Paburo]

Slamming someone in the face or running them over like a bulldozer is not the same as going 100%.
said that way, it's not.

but i have always been told by my sensei to go straight and keep my center. straight, as in "move out of my way or face the consequences". i've learnt this the hard way. i've had my sensei's and opponents kote slammed into my face, run over not once, not twice (in kihon and jigeiko)

straight kendo, means going straight after the cut (on men or kote, think of a straight line if you will), AND it means it is the motodachi the one who has to move out of the way. fast. with zanshin.

if for x or y reason i have to compromise my center and go around motodachi/opponent instead of going straight and keeping my center, then no. i'm not doing my 100%. if i have to slow down my top speed or stop in the middle so as not to run over my motodachi because he/she is slower, then i'm not doing my 100% either. it has nothing to do with brute force or muscle or being a bulldozer.

aaah, even if i wanted to, i don't have the build or bodytype to be one :D

[tantadi]

Going straight doesn't mean that you can't try to angle the hands past the opponents face instead of boxing them. That way you might still run them down but without hitting the head. The more advanced is to use footwork to go off at an angle after the cut.

[KhawMengLee]

Going straight doesn't mean that you can't try to angle the hands past the opponents face instead of boxing them. That way you might still run them down but without hitting the head. .

Easier said than done.


The more advanced is to use footwork to go off at an angle after the cut

Depending on the situation. If you are talking shiai or jigeiko then you are trying to train an effective set of waza to defeat your opponent. If you have the size and strength, use it. The Hachidans at the recent Aussie Champs said exactly that.

[Ignatz]

I agree but as we're training for WKC our coaches are teaching us to use what we have. For me, because of my size, I get told to use a very hard taiatari then follow with men or kote. This doesn't mean there's no initial hit involved I mean if I can nail the initial kote or men I'll do it.

The bulldozer attack, well...us elephants find it a little hard to stop once we get rolling...

As for the mengane thing...well, depending on my opponent I adjust to the occasion.
Maybe I can explain what I meant better. When we first start we are taught to show zanshin and we do that by going through- - -
as we get more and more experienced and understand maii better we begin to learn that we can show zanshin with a smaller, more controlled movement--
more than stopping dead but less than plowing through no matter what.

So you are doing at least 100% but not smashing the other guy to a pulp.

[Kitsune]

So you are doing at least 100% but not smashing the other guy to a pulp.

Well, I don't think that's the ideal of kendo anyway...

Our sempais teach us about zanshin both ways, for example if I don't move away when someone come forward to me like he or she wants to kill me, I have to move fast and avoid that kind of attack, if I don't move it's because my zanshin and my ki are not in good shape. When we attack the other way, that means going straight to the oponent we don't have to stop cos that means also that the zanshin and ki are not in a good shape.

(sorry baout my English)

[Ignatz]

I don't think you understand what I am talking about.

[ahmed61086]

You can show zanshin without moving an inch, problem is, if you are a beginner you cant do it.

Ive watched one of hte All japan matches and saw one guy hit kote and just stop and Kiai straight in the other guys face, and I dont think I have seen better Zanshin.

[Kitsune]

I don't think you understand what I am talking about.


Maybe I don't but don't you think is better explain it that just say it... That's not nice, making people look like unwise, more when the first language is not English.

[Ignatz]

Maybe I don't but don't you think is better explain it that just say it... That's not nice, making people look like unwise, more when the first language is not English.


I don't know what to say. I tried to explain it better but you basically told me I was wrong. Based upon your response it appears to me that you don't understand what I am talking about. It is not the language it is the kendo.

What you wrote about is what I said beginners are taught. What beginners are taught is absolutely correct for beginners. Kendo takes a lifetime to learn.

[Kitsune]

I know Kendo is lifetime and all that, but still don'tknow why you think I said that you were wrong cos I not even thought about it anytime.

Did not mean that. Again maybe I misundertood you, but I still don't know how exactly.

[Old Warrior]

If you got the oportunity to fight with a 7º dan a jigeiko would you like that he was easy on you because he knows more and he can bit you like that, or you would like he (or she) can go 100% because you want to learn and have a good zanshin? At leats for me, I taking the second option basicly cos you're not always will fight just for the fun of it.

My sabumnim is a 7th dan and we go head to head every week. Regardless of the vast difference in skill, I'm no sitting duck. Nevertheless, he never gives me the best he has - I'm unworthy. My kendo is not in his league, but I am physically strong and on the occasions when we have collided, I have been the one unmoved. I score my share of points, all things considered, but I stand in there and take whatever he has to dish out without injury.

Nevertheless, there is a vast difference between, my bouting with sabumnin, and my bouting with the 1st and 2nd dan females in our dojang. They have much less of a chance than I do with the 7th dan and they are nowhere's near as sturdy as I am. To use a boxing analogy, at least I have a puncher's chance with the 7th dan. I don't care what you say, a kendoka who is half my weight and a foot shorter, is more likely to be injured, than I, if we go at each other with competition energy. With a clearly inferior player, I try to give it just enough to win, but not enough to overpower or risk injury to them.

[Ignatz]

I don't think that at the 1dan 2dan and above level there should be a lot of face smashing tai atari into the next dimension stuff. I think that now you should be refining your technique and making your movements more compact, smaller and more efficient. No bongo nito :eek: but rather one strike, one kill.

[Kitsune]

It's not about overpower... It's about being there 100%, like you were fighting for real Not with all your strength but all your heart... That's what I'm trying to say

[Ignatz]

It's not about overpower... It's about being there 100%, like you were fighting for real Not with all your strength but all your heart... That's what I'm trying to say
That is perfectly right. It is important because that is your strong foundation. What I am talking about is technique. With your 100%, you refine your technique over the years and change from beginners kendo to more refined, mature, beautiful kendo.

[Kitsune]

At last I got you right... sorry for all the past problems with my English :down:

For me technique is the most important thing after the heart, for me zanshin. If you fight like you were a medieval knight I don't think you get somewhere. And that's for me fighting jigeiko 100% , with all your technique and with all your heart on it. With both no matter how big, short woman or man you are, you can do it right, you can fight equal with everyone no matter what.

[Paburo]

Going straight doesn't mean that you can't try to angle the hands past the opponents face instead of boxing them. That way you might still run them down but without hitting the head. The more advanced is to use footwork to go off at an angle after the cut.
but as i have been taught, what you suggest is not correct zanshin....

after the cut arms should stick at shoulder level. and body should go in a straight line. like i said before, if i have to modify my arms positioning and lose my straight line and go off at an angle, that's not straight kendo. and that's not my 100% going forward with spirit. that's more like hitting and running away, not cutting my opponent in half... (see the sketch i attached)

with opponents my size or bigger, i just go straight like a train. my line is my track/railroad, and you better get the hell out of it after i cut men or kote. i've been taught this is the good spirit. the good spirit for the motodachi is being alert to get out of the way. not just sit there waiting and expect uchidachi to go past by some tangent.

again, it's not about crushing your opponent. if a tiny girl goes with this straight spirit against a bulky guy twice her size(but too slow to move aside), she won't probably move the guy an inch. but imho, she will be pushing forward straight displaying good zanshin. if she instead hits and runs away to a side... well...... the hit and run method is not what i've been taught.... specially with men-uchi (and kote in a lesser extension).

.

[ne0r]

Lol, the sketch is really worth a laugh! ;D nice one! ;D
Bwahaha!!! ;D

[Ignatz]

. . .the good spirit for the motodachi is being alert to get out of the way. not just sit there waiting and expect uchidachi to go past by some tangent.. .
I think that is absolutely correct when you are doing waza training, men, kote-men etc. Motodachi has to get out of the way or get squished.

However, I think we were talking about keiko. My point was that as you get more and more experienced your zanshin is less and less like a runaway train.

[Kitsune]

But the thing I know is that when you're doing jigeiko when someone hits you he or she has to pass in staight line and if you're there you can be squished... Or am I wrong? Cos I must confes it, I don't remember what the hell I do when I'm in jigeiko except when I hit and pass....

[Mugu]

Forgive me, but I see a lot of this discussion falling into the category of taking yourself and kendo too seriously. Why is it disrespectful to turn up your skill to be just better than your opponent, so as to be a challenge without overwhelming them? Why does a beginner think they are being disrespected if you don't give them any chance and just dominate them? While I don't have the rank or skill to give advice, I do feel I have the obligation to try and teach through my kendo. For some reason, I have the impression that anyone who is demanding everyone go 100% hasn't been hit 2 or 3 times in a row with a solid kote. A numb hand doesn't help your practice nor does getting put on your tail. Kendo is about learning. Respect is an important part of the tradition and process, but it doesn't take precedence over the fact that learning is the goal.

What I mean is "I" don't give out 100% because I'm all exhausted and stuff. Standing there just waiting for them to attack. And I'm no where close to be "overhwhelm them with my skillz" lol The not 100% what I was talking about was for holding back afraid of this and that. Not because I got skillz, lol And I had a very numb right arm for a few weeks when I first started and now I do learn how to protect my Kote a lot better because I haven't got numbed hand for a while. I have had full force Taitari ran onto me that I fell on the ground. I just get back up and learn I shouldn't lean back and learn how to receive Taiatari. I'm also talking as a beginner's perspective. So I wouldn't know how you feel not letting 100% on a beginner just to give them advice. I guess what I mean 'disrespecting' as in I feel that I interrupt the flow of the practice. Unseriously, Kendo is a hobby to me. But some takes it as serious. So I don't plan to ruin theirs just because I'm just there for the fun.

[Ignatz]

But the thing I know is that when you're doing jigeiko when someone hits you he or she has to pass in staight line and if you're there you can be squished...
Hit him first.


Cos I must confes it, I don't remember what the hell I do when I'm in jigeiko except when I hit and pass....
That's good. Keep on doing that for a while.

[Kat]

This will sound like a goody-two-shoes answer, but I learn from and appreciate different styles. The only time where I will feel apprehensive about someone is when I feel that there is a lack of rei. (And this can be surprisingly apparent, especially from the receiving end – e.g. smaller or a woman.)

Almost all of my dojo mates are yudansha and nobody runs anyone over like a train, probably because we know the timing, etc. I do feel that physical strength needs to be controlled. I once did taiatari with a guy who was about a foot taller than me and probably about 100 pounds heavier, and hurt my shoulder so bad I needed a month of physical therapy. Did I bitch? No, because that’s what happens in kendo, and he was a beginner, and I should have known better than to go at him full force, knowing he might not know to move out of the way.

As for sempais with better skills, I am okay with both – those who give me a break to make sure I am executing my wazas correctly, and those who come at me with all they have – though this is rare as I am one of the newest member at my dojo and thus am no match for a lot of my sempais. I learn from both and they all help my kendo.

However, very rarely I would feel that there is a lack of respect, and that’s when I have a problem.


I was at a tournament once, and I was in a all-women’s team. We won our first match and were waiting for our next match when I heard someone using a derogatory term for women to describe our team. (He was speaking Korean, and he didn’t know I was sitting in front of him.) When I turned to look, he and I were both embarrassed, because he knew who I was and he was a respected sabumnim. I was in his dojo a year prior, couldn’t stand it because I felt that there was no respect or consideration for women, packed and left only after 2 months. To this day they can’t retain a woman member.

That day my all-women’s team beat their all guys’ team.


(Gosh, this was a lot of rambling and very little talk about the subject at hand!)

[Ignatz]

That's why I'm glad you are a Killer Bee.:D

[Kitsune]

That's good. Keep on doing that for a while.

Why is that? I thought forgeting the things was not good.

[Ignatz]

Why is that? I thought forgeting the things was not good.
You need to do basic stuff for a while so you don't think. As you progress you will refine your technique and it will be less coarse.
Read Kat's post. We are in the same dojo.

[sainueng]

But the thing I know is that when you're doing jigeiko when someone hits you he or she has to pass in staight line and if you're there you can be squished... Or am I wrong? Cos I must confes it, I don't remember what the hell I do when I'm in jigeiko except when I hit and pass....

I think that as you become more experienced, your control over your movement becomes more refined. As others have mentioned, you are able to express a zanshin w/o going completely through. As an example, look at how older senseis practice. It's like you can feel their spirit go through their opponent despite them stopping. I personally would go straight and either slow down or do tai atari during jigeiko. I occasionally "punch" people in the grill as well but hopefully I've slowed down by then. Shiai is a different story, of course. ;)

As for this thread, I think the reason for the misunderstandings is how people interpret 100%. If we interpret 100% as the full capabilities of the kendoka, physical and mental, going for the win, I must agree with Old Warrior and Ignatz. Especially for a high-ranking sensei, he is not going to bring everything he has against you unless you are a well accomplished kendoka as well. Honda sensei's articles on ji geiko (http://www.kendo.org.uk/newsevents/articlespast.shtml) explain it much better than me when it comes to adjusting one's kendo for one's opponent's level of kendo during ji geiko.

Now my interpretation of this thread is it's primarily focusing on the physical contact aspect. Again, I think that during ji geiko it is not necessary to go 100%. I believe you should use enough force that your opponent has to work to keep up, but is not bulldozed over. More experienced people will be able to control this better than beginners, and beginners will be (in general) and should be encouraged to err on the side of bulldozing, since the generally held opinion is they will learn to scale back eventually, but if they start off weak they will remain weak.

Finally, might I suggest that you practice going 100% tai atari during say hiki waza practice instead? Or specific tai atari practices. Ji geiko is really free form and sometimes things happen that you don't anticipate, and that's when injuries can really happen. If it's known that it's tai atari practice, both sides can go in stronger knowing the opponent is anticipating it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you got the oportunity to fight with a 7º dan a jigeiko would you like that he was easy on you because he knows more and he can bit you like that, or you would like he (or she) can go 100% because you want to learn and have a good zanshin? At leats for me, I taking the second option basicly cos you're not always will fight just for the fun of it.

When I got into my first jigeiko the first thing I said and ask was "please don't go easy on me cos I won't learn to have a good zanshin if you're relax." Kitsune, I hope you won't think I'm being patronising or that you are being patronised by your dojomates, but please trust me when I tell you that people are going easy on you. From my understanding you have only a year or two's experience in kendo? You don't want a nanadan sensei's best kendo. You won't learn anything from a nanadan sensei's best kendo except that he's way better than you, and hopefully you knew that already. Furthermore, it is physically impossible for him to give you his best kendo because there are certain actions that he would take against a high level player that you wouldn't recognise and respond to. He would do something subtle, and you would stand there, not even realising what he had done. Kendo at his level is a conversation in a language you haven't learned. If he just keeps it to a physical level, he would beat you into a bloody pulp and you would quit, right then and there. What I'm saying is that if you want that nanadan's best kendo, and think you've gotten it, you have a seriously distorted view of where your own kendo is.

What he will do, what all good sensei do, is play just a little bit stronger than you. This is not patronising. This is pulling you up without beating you down. This is teaching in a language you are starting to understand. You don't start a math class with Z transforms, you start with basic addition. If the kid says, "teach me Z transforms", you say "how much is 1+2", and if you don't get the right answer you start from there. That's what the first few seconds of keiko with a new sensei is. Your walk, your bow, your kamae, your first attack, is all telling him that you need some instruction in addition. And if you're reading this thinking "what the hell is a Z transform", trust me your kendo is directly analogous as you don't have a clue what happens at nanadan level kendo.

As far as dealing with smaller opponents, whether they are men, women or kids, what you have to ask yourself as the stronger opponent is, how best can they learn? How best can I learn? Are they learning anything by being steamrollered? Am I learning anything? Are the kids in your class going to fight 200 lb men? Are the ladies? If so, maybe once in a while they need to get flattened. But surely not all the time. It doesn't do much for their kendo development, and it surely doesn't do much for yours. It's not about patronisation, it's about progress - what's best for you and for them.

[tantadi]

but as i have been taught, what you suggest is not correct zanshin....

after the cut arms should stick at shoulder level. and body should go in a straight line. like i said before, if i have to modify my arms positioning and lose my straight line and go off at an angle, that's not straight kendo. and that's not my 100% going forward with spirit. that's more like hitting and running away, not cutting my opponent in half... (see the sketch i attached)

with opponents my size or bigger, i just go straight like a train. my line is my track/railroad, and you better get the hell out of it after i cut men or kote. i've been taught this is the good spirit. the good spirit for the motodachi is being alert to get out of the way. not just sit there waiting and expect uchidachi to go past by some tangent.

again, it's not about crushing your opponent. if a tiny girl goes with this straight spirit against a bulky guy twice her size(but too slow to move aside), she won't probably move the guy an inch. but imho, she will be pushing forward straight displaying good zanshin. if she instead hits and runs away to a side... well...... the hit and run method is not what i've been taught.... specially with men-uchi (and kote in a lesser extension).

.
I don't think you quite get what I'm talking about, you are talking about what beginners learn and kihon. I'm not.

The latter part of your drawing is ok if you do it the correct way. (The angle, not the going around in a semicircle). And I'm pretty sure that your sensei and sempai does it in keiko.

[ahmed61086]

Going straight is great, its also they way to teach beginners zanshin and good spirit, but its not practical in most Keiko situations. Also, getting away is a form of zanshin, as is stopping. Zanshin can be what you make it, but this is not the case with beginners.

I once got hit with a debana kote(which wasnt a clean blow) by a kid at a tournament, and after he hit me he didnt back up much, and his Men could have been open, but his Zanshin was so good/strong, I was kinda frozen in my tracks. That was some good zanshin. Thats probably why the judges gave him the point.

[kurisu]

The British Kendo Association has a nice page on this subject:

http://www.kendo.org.uk/articles/jigeiko/02/

[kurisu]

The British Kendo Association has a nice page on this subject:

http://www.kendo.org.uk/articles/jigeiko/02/

bleh, should have read past posts closer, I see someone already posted this very informational link...

[h2o]

The latter part of your drawing is ok if you do it the correct way. (The angle, not the going around in a semicircle). And I'm pretty sure that your sensei and sempai does it in keiko.
I actually agree with Paburo. I have been taught to not avoid your opponent after a hit except for do strikes. We try to aim for the shoulders though, and not the face, even though I admit my hands mostly end up there. To me, running past your opponent looks strange. Either they move after the attack or there will be some sort of collision.

To try to get thread back on topic... Regardless who I fight, I try to put myself at a level where we both can learn something. The closest common level, you might call it. If I fight someone way better than me I try to make my absolute best, since that is our closest common level. When I fight a beginner with perhaps 4 months of kendo experience, I lower the level to somewhere a bit above theirs. When it comes to "rough" kendo, I try to find a similar common level. If I know they can take it, I go as rough as I feel like, otherwise I try to be a bit more gentle. Not that I do very rough kendo normally though :rambo:

[tantadi]

I must again say that this is not beginners technique. And it is for keiko. I can also add that I know by experience that you, the swedes do this, especially the upper levels.

[h2o]

I must again say that this is not beginners technique.Hmm, which is beginners technique, running through or running aside? Getting confused here... I know that we, at our dojo, specifically tell our beginners to run straight on.


And it is for keiko. I can also add that I know by experience that you, the swedes do this, especially the upper levels. Possibly. I am yet too new at this to have any feeling of national differences, and I am far from being part of the "upper level" ;)

[tantadi]

Beginners are thaught to go straight. And it is possibly advisable for anyone in kihon. But when you have the footwork and the posture, you will (at least I was) be advised to try to use footwork to actually get past the opponent, or display zanshin without taking a head on collision. (In general, an attack is then no longer an entity, but a series of events where you can use your footwork to influence the outcome.)

The reason that I bother harping on about this, is that I think that the smaller persons at some point need to know that their ability to do zanshin is not always dependent on 'steamrolling'.

[h2o]

Beginners are thaught to go straight. And it is possibly advisable for anyone in kihon. But when you have the footwork and the posture, you will (at least I was) be advised to try to use footwork to actually get past the opponent, or display zanshin without taking a head on collision. (In general, an attack is then no longer an entity, but a series of events where you can use your footwork to influence the outcome.)

The reason that I bother harping on about this, is that I think that the smaller persons at some point need to know that their ability to do zanshin is not always dependent on 'steamrolling'.
Aha, interesting. Will keep this in mind over the next few years. Will keep doing "steamrolling"-zanshin for quite a while longer though, I think ;)

[Solinde]

Aha, interesting. Will keep this in mind over the next few years. Will keep doing "steamrolling"-zanshin for quite a while longer though, I think ;)

Have to say I don't really think that you're the steamrolling kind. :wink:

[h2o]

Have to say I don't really think that you're the steamrolling kind. :wink: But sometimes I wish I was, doesn't that count? ;)

[Kitsune]

I think that as you become more experienced, your control over your movement becomes more refined. As others have mentioned, you are able to express a zanshin w/o going completely through. As an example, look at how older senseis practice. It's like you can feel their spirit go through their opponent despite them stopping. I personally would go straight and either slow down or do tai atari during jigeiko. I occasionally "punch" people in the grill as well but hopefully I've slowed down by then. Shiai is a different story, of course. ;)

As for this thread, I think the reason for the misunderstandings is how people interpret 100%. If we interpret 100% as the full capabilities of the kendoka, physical and mental, going for the win, I must agree with Old Warrior and Ignatz. Especially for a high-ranking sensei, he is not going to bring everything he has against you unless you are a well accomplished kendoka as well. Honda sensei's articles on ji geiko (http://www.kendo.org.uk/newsevents/articlespast.shtml) explain it much better than me when it comes to adjusting one's kendo for one's opponent's level of kendo during ji geiko.

Now my interpretation of this thread is it's primarily focusing on the physical contact aspect. Again, I think that during ji geiko it is not necessary to go 100%. I believe you should use enough force that your opponent has to work to keep up, but is not bulldozed over. More experienced people will be able to control this better than beginners, and beginners will be (in general) and should be encouraged to err on the side of bulldozing, since the generally held opinion is they will learn to scale back eventually, but if they start off weak they will remain weak.

Finally, might I suggest that you practice going 100% tai atari during say hiki waza practice instead? Or specific tai atari practices. Ji geiko is really free form and sometimes things happen that you don't anticipate, and that's when injuries can really happen. If it's known that it's tai atari practice, both sides can go in stronger knowing the opponent is anticipating it.

Thanx a lot for the advices... But again I was interpreting this thread not as strengnth but about being there, put your heart on jigeiko, that does not mean that you go and crush someone, but you can teach someone about zanshin, about spirit.

Again thanx a lot for what you said.

[mingshi]

So, how does everyone deal with sensei who like pushing you around, giving you multiple tsuki everywhere, shoving you on the floor, etc, and tell you that "Oi, you shouldn't give up" and "it's something I want you to learn"...?????

I know these sort of sensei exist in any place.

[Obulco]

So, how does everyone deal with sensei who like pushing you around, giving you multiple tsuki everywhere, shoving you on the floor, etc, and tell you that "Oi, you shouldn't give up" and "it's something I want you to learn"...?????

I know these sort of sensei exist in any place.

Uhmm, Mingshi, I do not know if I am missing some context in your comment, but, the way you described it, it would seem that it is what several sensei are doing to me more and more often. Personally, I take it as a compliment, since it is their way to say that I am beginning to be able to take it and learn how to react under that amount of physical stress. This is part of the program. I completely trust their judgment on that, as I see how they know how to push me to the limit without going as far as injuring me. In other words, they have control over the situation. If other students like me tried to do the same rough treatment, I would not let it happen, since they lack both the experience and the technical skill to be in control.

[Hai_hai]

100% is good. Anything less would not be kendo.

[Hai_hai]

So, how does everyone deal with sensei who like pushing you around, giving you multiple tsuki everywhere, shoving you on the floor, etc, and tell you that "Oi, you shouldn't give up" and "it's something I want you to learn"...?????

I know these sort of sensei exist in any place.
I've never heard of that kind of shenanigans. What kind of cruel-hearted sensei would do that?

[JByrd]

I've never heard of that kind of shenanigans. What kind of cruel-hearted sensei would do that?

Ha ha ha! :)

I'm glad Koike Sensei waited until he knew me for a few years before knocking me down and yelling at me to get up. By then I knew we were friends, and he was only giving me what I needed. I actually considered it a positive sign of my Kendo progress that he felt he could give me some stronger medicine.

I'm kind of glad I never got to keiko with my first Kendo teacher. He was a big guy who earned a full-ride NCAA football scholarship to USC, and I am told tsuki was his favorite technique. He was also not very forgiving of me as his senior student. He used to dress me down in front of the whole class, yelling in my face and stopping just shy of belittling me if he thought I wasn't giving 101%. Some of the other students seemed a bit horrified by it. They didn't know that outside the dojo he showed me all the love and concern of a devoted grandparent.

[tantadi]

So, how does everyone deal with sensei who like pushing you around, giving you multiple tsuki everywhere, shoving you on the floor, etc, and tell you that "Oi, you shouldn't give up" and "it's something I want you to learn"...?????

I know these sort of sensei exist in any place.
Not much you can do, but figure out what lesson they are trying to give..? (And if there is no lesson, there still isn't much you can do except trying to keep doing what you normally do..)

I do have one sempai/sensei that is downright nasty and for instance will poke people's injuries and almost managed to put me out of my last grading. I'll leave out the details of that incident, but I'm going to be very careful with that person from now on. Don't want one person to take me out of kendo.

[Cup_of_Tea]

Sorry to bump such an old thread, but I have a problem sort of related to this.

I have only been practicing kendo for a few months and currently getting used to wearing armour. It's difficult, but I'm getting used to being hit and I think I'm coping quite well :smiley:

My problem is not jigeiko but simple menuchi. When I get hit by my sensei or sempais, I certainly feel it but it's not a problem.

However there is one guy in the dojo who has been practicing for (I think) a year. When he hits me the pain is unbelievable, I go home from each class with a horrible headache each time I face him.

I really don't want to get a reputation as "The Weak Girl" and I don't want the whole dojo to go easy on me. I just need this one guy to use a little bit less force because it's getting to the point where I'm so scared of getting hit that it ruins my practice.

Do I approach him one-on-one or tell my sensei in private that I'm having trouble? Should I just put up with it?

[ahmed61086]

Sorry to bump such an old thread, but I have a problem sort of related to this.

I have only been practicing kendo for a few months and currently getting used to wearing armour. It's difficult, but I'm getting used to being hit and I think I'm coping quite well :smiley:

My problem is not jigeiko but simple menuchi. When I get hit by my sensei or sempais, I certainly feel it but it's not a problem.

However there is one guy in the dojo who has been practicing for (I think) a year. When he hits me the pain is unbelievable, I go home from each class with a horrible headache each time I face him.

I really don't want to get a reputation as "The Weak Girl" and I don't want the whole dojo to go easy on me. I just need this one guy to use a little bit less force because it's getting to the point where I'm so scared of getting hit that it ruins my practice.

Do I approach him one-on-one or tell my sensei in private that I'm having trouble? Should I just put up with it?

Someone can point me out if I am wrong.

What I usually do, if someone hits extremely hard men is, right beofre they hit, i lean my body back, not my head to much(bad for the neck) and let them strike on my mengane a little bit. This realy lessens the amount of force on teh men Futon.

It also might break their shinia, but thats their fault. :laugh:

[turboyoshi]

Someone can point me out if I am wrong.

What I usually do, if someone hits extremely hard men is, right beofre they hit, i lean my body back, not my head to much(bad for the neck) and let them strike on my mengane a little bit. This realy lessens the amount of force on teh men Futon.


Couldn't you just move forward into the attack? Seems to me that would be safer since you're not risking changing the angle of your neck, you'd take less force from the strike and it would still be more on the mengane than on the men buton.

sorry, no real world experience, just tryign to analyse the physics here.

sean

[skilled]

Use a Men Pad if it hurts so much .

[Kagerou]

However there is one guy in the dojo who has been practicing for (I think) a year. When he hits me the pain is unbelievable, I go home from each class with a horrible headache each time I face him.

I really don't want to get a reputation as "The Weak Girl" and I don't want the whole dojo to go easy on me. I just need this one guy to use a little bit less force because it's getting to the point where I'm so scared of getting hit that it ruins my practice.

Do I approach him one-on-one or tell my sensei in private that I'm having trouble? Should I just put up with it?

I think that's the problem. He hasn't been practicing long so he's probably got problems with his tenouchi. If no one has said anything to him he won't know he has a problem. If everyone just sucks it up it will be YEARS before he's able to hit well. You don't have to be rude or even direct about it. Just a casual "Dang you hit hard" comment after will probably be enough to get him thinking about it.

I'd say you're not weak because you're not having problems with anyone else so you shouldn't need a men pad. If it's only for one person then you will lose the feel of getting hit from everyone else so you might not realise when you are getting hit and that's just bad.

[Kagerou]

It also might break their shinia, but thats their fault. :laugh:

Shinais can splinter and go through your mengane. Our whole class got reemed when our sensei found a 4cm long splinter laying on the ground and no one saw where it came from and couldn't find the damaged shinai.

[ahmed61086]

Shinais can splinter and go through your mengane. Our whole class got reemed when our sensei found a 4cm long splinter laying on the ground and no one saw where it came from and couldn't find the damaged shinai.

I was being slightly facetious. But obviously if they are hitting a little mengane it has possibility to break, but this happens anyway with regular practice. If the man is hitting extremely hard, better his shinia breaks than my skull.

As for you neck, thats why I said lean you body back or move back and dont just crank your neck. moving foward will hurt much more, because the middle of his shinai will be hitting the top of your head. I could be wrong, its just something I do to ease the pain with those lumber-jacks.

[verissimus]

I've been told leaning back is bad kendo, incoming shinai, or not.

I've encountered a couple of people who hit really hard, but they're also very good, so I assume it's just their overall strength as opposed to bad grip. Perhaps an extra tenugui would help?

[turboyoshi]

moving foward will hurt much more, because the middle of his shinai will be hitting the top of your head.

From a physics standpoint, taking the hit from the middle of the shinai will mean it hurts less. The force will be less because the middle of the shinai is moving slower than the tip. (Force= mass x velocity^2) That's why I suggested it. Increased velocity causes an exponential increase in force while increased mass causes a linear increase in force. My other thought was that shortening this distance will mean that the angle of the hit will be more vertical so the mengane will take more of the strike.

Still, I tend to lean towards the idea that you really should mention it, probably to him personally rather than going through the sensei/sempai. I haven't had to deal with this yet but I think that's how I would handle it.

sean

[BluishHue]

i do think i understand what she is getting at... occasionally my sempai or sensais (sp) will seem to loose all seme and open a target wayyy open... and suddenly all the seme i have seems to evaporate and i am left standing there staring at an opening--then they shake their heads and laugh while they scream by after smacking my men! it isn't a 100% steam rolling physical attack that i appreciate, just at LEAST give me 60 % seme-please!!
if i have a partner and i can't feel their seme or they are just giving off the vibe that they are just 'hangin out'--i get very frustrated! it is hard to explain, but less experienced sempai seem to do it the most often as they are learning to properly practice with a less experienced partner. if i feel like my opponent is not giving me their seme then mine seems to drain too, or i feel like perhaps they don't feel like they should have to spar with someone of my lowly rank. (btw, my sensais do NOT do this--they do give me seme unless they want me to hit a specific target and hence open it wide)
hope this is what she was getting at... hope my post made sense

[verissimus]

(Force= mass x velocity^2)

Actually, no, but that's a different thread. :)

[Kuri]

...If the man is hitting extremely hard, better his shinia breaks than my skull.

You obviously don't value your sight.

[samurai80]

Getting hit towards the thicker end of the shinai hurts a LOT worse. Instead of a cue stick smashing your head, you now have a sledge hammer crushing you.

[ahmed61086]

You obviously don't value your sight.

Of course I dont.

Who does?

[Raindrop]

The thick end hurts more because it has less flexibility and doesn't bounce off as easy as the tip, hence more of the impact is being absorbed by your skull.

Only if the person cutting had very crappy or no tenouchi and the tip would also just smack on you like a hammer then I guess it wouldn't make a difference. I was always under the impression that a good ippon doesn't need to be skull splittingly painful and giving 100% in jigeiko doesn't mean you cannot also time your tenouchi and the bouncing back of the shinai in a way that makes it less painful. But what do I know. I'm not even in Hakama and Kendogi ^_^;

Let's just say if I ever get as far as jigeiko I wouldn't want anyone to hold back in agression or spirit. As others said that takes the fun out and holds you back, but the force could be reduced. What's the point of mowing down someone half your size so they don't even get anything out of it other than a headache?

[lucy]

If I was in your position, CuppaTea, I'd simply say something like Kagerou suggested, that is "Wow, you hit a hard men!" or something without being aggressive or angry. I did this once during Kote drills because I thought my hand would be slammed into the ground otherwise... I just couldn't help saying "That's way to hard for me!" For me there is no shame in admitting it, I rather keep practising with two hands than having a broken arm. :)
Of course, the person I was practising with was about my level, not my senpai or even sensei! Whenever one of my sensei hits hard, I suck it up and try to attack more so that my kote is protected. :)

And whatever you do, don't move closer, as the others have mentioned, because the thicker middle part of the shinai hurts way more than the flexible tip! I receive those hits from beginners regularly and they hurt A LOT, it's like a very hard punch in the face / on top of the head, depending on where they hit.

Just my 2 cents, I've been practising for not even 2 years now, so take my advice with a lot of salt. :)

[cesarekim]

When in doubt say something. Suffering in silence because you might be considered delicate is silly... Most people will ease off if you ask them. If this doesn't work, ask a sempai. If that doesn't work, escalate and ask help from your sensei.

If nothing else works, kick him in the balls... I'm basically kidding but, if he's hurting you, you should definitely bring this to his attention. As one of my girlfriends once told me, a friendly kick in the balls does wonders for telling someone that you are displeased....

[ratdeau]

When in doubt say something. Suffering in silence because you might be considered delicate is silly... Most people will ease off if you ask them. If this doesn't work, ask a sempai. If that doesn't work, escalate and ask help from your sensei.

If nothing else works, kick him in the balls... I'm basically kidding but, if he's hurting you, you should definitely bring this to his attention. As one of my girlfriends once told me, a friendly kick in the balls does wonders for telling someone that you are displeased....

I second that.
Not only for you but for the others too. If nobody say him anything, how can he know.

[absenteekendoka]

Ahhh...Ann Coulter...sweet sweet Annie...what did she say about Canada the other day?

"[Canadians] better hope the United States does not roll over one night and crush them. They are lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent." - Hannity & Colmes, November 30, 2004

Ann Coulter, ladies and gentlegerms, a class act.

Guess she forgot about a few little things.....like the war of 1812..(they tried that before)....we beat them nearly every time....and didnt we trick fort Detroit into surrender too......hmmmm and what was that about the White House getting razed during the same conflict....guess she forgot that too :)
Ohhhh, and the First and Second World Wars.....without the will and tenacity and forcoe of arms of Canadian troops we'd all be speakin German. :) I love the Yanks, just cant stand that damn manifest destiny BS that some people south of here still spout.


Welll on to the thread...LOL....you give dont always give 100% with all other Kendoka...depends on their skill level....I tend to play just above someones level whos not as experienced...makes them work harder and improves their Kendo because they have to really go for it. But it doesn't kill 'em on the floor. When I practice with someone better than myself I give 110% depending on the situation....theres always instances when good form and working off of your opponents timing trumps exerting your self. The goal is to figure out when that is. :) And theres days I'm not sure my self, LOL.

We've always had a real range of size when it comes to Kendoka we practice with and I've always found the toughest opponents are tiny girls........(they'll hand out kotes and do's like lightning....) especially since I'm taller (6'3) they can certainly be fierce!

Good luck...lotsa keiko...:)

[nonamehandle]

My problem is not jigeiko but simple menuchi. When I get hit by my sensei or sempais, I certainly feel it but it's not a problem.

However there is one guy in the dojo who has been practicing for (I think) a year. When he hits me the pain is unbelievable, I go home from each class with a horrible headache each time I face him.

I really don't want to get a reputation as "The Weak Girl" and I don't want the whole dojo to go easy on me. I just need this one guy to use a little bit less force because it's getting to the point where I'm so scared of getting hit that it ruins my practice.

Do I approach him one-on-one or tell my sensei in private that I'm having trouble? Should I just put up with it?



don't move forward or backwards to avoid being hit like some of the others have suggested. you will learn bad habits and also will make your partner learn bad habits.

do this: tell your sensei that while some men from some people are okay but that some other men hurt really badly. and that you asked some people at KW forum and that some people have suggested either moving forward or tilting the head back. and ask him if this is something that you can do (since you are beginner asking silly questions should be okay). he will say no and then will ask for more details. he will then keep more eye on your practice and will correct your opponent who is clubbing you since the problem does not lie with you but with the other person.

in the meantime you can add more padding to your men itself, tense your body right at impact, etc, etc. another suggestion is to tell the person directly that he/she is hurting you when they hit men...but some people might not take it too well to be given "admonishment" from beginners.

again, do not move forward or tilt your head.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Kendo shouldn't be painful, at least not to the point of going home with headaches. I'd suggest going to your sensei and explaining about your pain. Get him to check your men for fit (this can be an issue). Also get him to check if there's room to add a pad. While you're at it you can mention that there is one fellow in particular who is clocking you very hard.

One problem many women have is that they are typically shorter than their partners. If this is your case, it will amplify the problem and it won't just be with this particular guy. There's no shame in padding up. Also if your men is a used one, you might consider bulking it up with some cowhide over the menbuton.

[ne0r]

I second this. I don't think Kendo should be painful, either.

If he is hitting so hard that you are afraid doing jigeiko with him / being hit by him, that's definitely way too hard. Furthermore being hit is a part of Kendo and you shouldn't be afraid of it (because of him). And I second that best is asking your sensei about this issue (he will be surely able to correct the particular guys mistakes so that he doesn't hit too hard anymore). Asking him directly is a bit risky if you're a beginner, but shouldn't be a problem^^

Good luck!

[Inner_Silence]

If you got the oportunity to fight with a 7º dan a jigeiko would you like that he was easy on you because he knows more and he can bit you like that, or you would like he (or she) can go 100% because you want to learn and have a good zanshin? At leats for me, I taking the second option basicly cos you're not always will fight just for the fun of it.

When I got into my first jigeiko the first thing I said and ask was "please don't go easy on me cos I won't learn to have a good zanshin if you're relax."

Is like when you got a kid and you're playing with that kid soccer (football) and you let him win. That victory is so empty that is disrespectful for him. He must learn, as we must learn to fight with all our heart... It's the only way things can work out.

thats a mistake.

if the instructor does gi geyko with his 100% strenght, the beginner would learn nothing, maybe he could learn how hard it is a real geyko and that would push him to go faster and harder but that must be handled wisely becouse most of the beginners get scared after their first gi geyko or their first hard tai-atari, or a hard hit that misses the target, this things hurts, especially when people are not used to it. for example if I do a hard tai atari or a hard attack, with a beginner or most of the girls in our dojo (to not say all) the way I do it with our instructor, or worse, the way I do it in tournament, they will end up in the floor and thats a fact, and that may cause an injury and of course, generate a lot of hard feelings and missunderstandings that could get everyones else class messed up, at the end noone will learn. instead of being fighting they would use that time to be playing attention to someones fall to the ground or if that person gets angry and so. ofcourse ans instructor can not allow that. in fact, when someone has a bad temper, and get angry easily when things doesnt work the way they want (rings any bells?) that annoys people and gets everyone elses training messed up, especially when the dojo is small like ours.
all this happens becouse beginners are not used to recive hard pushes and so and doesent know how to manage it, and that isnt something that you learn in one class, is something that has to me graduately included in geyko practice in order to avoid any injury and everything else that has to bee with it.
the thing is that beginners think that gi geyko its is a practice to be won, like shiai. and that is a fundamental mistake that everyone has when beginner, in fact people would know whats the real objective of gigeyko practice and still they want to "win". if you hit our instructor, ever wordered if you really hit him or if he has allowed you to hit him so you can learn from it?

or about your post, if you fight a 7th dan at 100% as you say, do you really think that you would have enough time even to take a breath before being hited millions of times? how mani second you think that will pass between the moment when the geyko starts (hayime!) and the moment you hit the floor??? over and over again???

thinking that someone with really higher raknk would fightyou tith 100% is just silly

[Inner_Silence]

If you got the oportunity to fight with a 7º dan a jigeiko would you like that he was easy on you because he knows more and he can bit you like that, or you would like he (or she) can go 100% because you want to learn and have a good zanshin? At leats for me, I taking the second option basicly cos you're not always will fight just for the fun of it.

yeah, when you are 7th dan...
a 7th dan has at least 23 years of kendo more than a 1 kyu, zero chance for the kyu



When I got into my first jigeiko the first thing I said and ask was "please don't go easy on me cos I won't learn to have a good zanshin if you're relax."

it is not proper for a beginner to instruct their teammates, sempai and instructor how to make the excercises. besides, have you ever wonder if people did what you requested? do you ever wonder if they do it now?

I.
It's the only way things can work out.

thats a 8th dan hanshi affirmation.

[Winter516]

my instructors/sempai always lower their level but stay above me, that way i get a beating but i learn from it and have a chance for a point.
i found that out when my sempai said "ill show you what i can do". i would strike and he was already behind me and i had a searing pain on my wrist. ><
no one was kungfoo fighting, but he was fast as lightning....

[monchichi]

Cup of tea, you should definitely consider padding. It really makes a difference. The problem is :does your men have enough room to put a pad ?

Besides that, it would be better you express to your opponent you are hurt. What i do against opponent with painful men is to put back my men after their stroke like to say "you went so strong it almost threw my men away." The problem is that if delicates persons understand that sign very well, some just don't bother. :ponder:

[Winter516]

Sorry to bump such an old thread, but I have a problem sort of related to this.

I have only been practicing kendo for a few months and currently getting used to wearing armour. It's difficult, but I'm getting used to being hit and I think I'm coping quite well :smiley:

My problem is not jigeiko but simple menuchi. When I get hit by my sensei or sempais, I certainly feel it but it's not a problem.

However there is one guy in the dojo who has been practicing for (I think) a year. When he hits me the pain is unbelievable, I go home from each class with a horrible headache each time I face him.

I really don't want to get a reputation as "The Weak Girl" and I don't want the whole dojo to go easy on me. I just need this one guy to use a little bit less force because it's getting to the point where I'm so scared of getting hit that it ruins my practice.

Do I approach him one-on-one or tell my sensei in private that I'm having trouble? Should I just put up with it?

i had the same problem, most likely they have poor technique which means they use 'baseball bat' technique and instead of cutting with enough force to kill they are trieing to cut you right in half (theoreticly) i told the person they were crap and not to hit so hard, as did everone else. he carried on, so whenever he hit men i would tilt my head back slightly so it would fracture his shinai on my men grill over time. i know it sounds dangerous but he learnt 2 shinais later.

BTW dont think its 'weak' that it hurts like hell (especially when they do baseball style kote ><) and make sure he isnt hitting the back of the men, but the padded band at the front of the men

[WiwuX]

If the pain is a crushing type pain that stays for a while, as you seem to describe, the person is hitting hard with little to no tenouchi. If the pain is a stinging-type sensation that disappears quickly, the person is hitting you hard with tenouchi.

On the main topic: I restrict myself when fighting junior kendoka by not doing tsuki, since they're not allowed to do so in our dojo, it doesn't seem fair. Besides that, I'm not good enough to have any need to limit myself.

[dohrt]

I just want to take this opportunity to thank everyone that I keiko with (even though I don't think more than 1 or 2 actually read these boards) . . . fortunately, they all (with a very few exceptions) have very very good tenouchi, and I can honestly say I've never had a headache from receiving men, nor have I had a numb hand from receiving kote. And there have been times when I've received a LOT of them in a very very short span of time.

That said, I do have a lot of bruises from beginners and mid-level kendoka who occaisionally miss (hitting "do" in my armpit, or hitting "kote" on my elbow, for example). But I don't even feel it during kieko. It's always later that night in the mirror . . . whoa, how did I get *that* !?

As for how to play opponents; my general problem is that I'm a mirror; if I have a physical opponent who is trying to "muscle" me with crushing men, hard tai-atari, I instinctively respond in kind. If I have an opponent doing a lot of harai-waza, or other ways of blatantly knocking me, I find I get into that game of shinai twirling. If I have an opponent who just quietly but oh-so-menacingly pressures with a straight, chushin-infused ironclad kamae, I *try* to respond in kind. In other words, so far, I unfortunately tend to let my aite determine how I play. I'm working on breaking that habit so that I can change up in a way that throws them off; even if I'm happy adjusting to them, I would like to be able to make them adjust to me.

As for people who you can score at will against and the question of how to play against them... one of my sensei once told me that against beginners, of course I certainly should slow it down a bit for them and help them to practice what they've learned, but that I should NEVER do that by letting my spirit go down. Sensei said to always keep spirit at 100% no matter who you play, but merely adjust speed, waza, how hard you hold center, etc. for the person you're doing ji-geiko with. And I see my sensei doing that same thing for me; all of them. They make me feel like they are 100% focused, 100% intense, 100% there. So while they are definitely "dumbing it down" 20 notches or so for me in terms of seme, chushin, tame, waza selection, etc., their ki is still "Ludicrous Speed".

Of course, the negative side of this is that sometimes I feel like a vampire, in that if my opponent has tons and tons of spirit, I can find more inside myself; theirs feeds mine. Conversely, if my aite is exhausted, if my aite seems distracted, if my aite isn't giving 100% spirit, I find my spirit fades easily. So it's been a huge challenge for me to work on always trying to keep my spirit at 100% no matter what I'm doing and no matter who I'm in ji-geiko with. That practice mostly comes from doing ji-geiko with kohai.

[ahmed61086]

Sensei said to always keep spirit at 100% no matter who you play, but merely adjust speed, waza, how hard you hold center, etc. for the person you're doing ji-geiko with. And I see my sensei doing that same thing for me; all of them. They make me feel like they are 100% focused, 100% intense, 100% there. So while they are definitely "dumbing it down" 20 notches or so for me in terms of seme, chushin, tame, waza selection, etc., their ki is still "Ludicrous Speed".



Your sensei put it very well, I think.