Suriage-men

[Darknails]

Just a bit unsure if I understand suriage correctly. From what I've understood it's sliding your shinai directly upwards, and strike, say men. But since the other person strikes downwards, though not exactly shomen (on centerline), still hitting on men. Isn't this situation invalid for me to get an ippon? Not sure I understand the concept of suriage.

If I want to deflect my opponent's shinai more, then I would sweep the shinai upwards in a crescent shape, that becomes harai-waza, isn't it?

[Ignatz]

If you are both on the center, only one of you can hit men.

[ahmed61086]

If you are both on the center, only one of you can hit men.

I though only one person can have center at a time, or am I sadly mistaken.



BTW, Suriage men is a difficult technique, which many peopel do slightly differnt.

[KhawMengLee]

Just a bit unsure if I understand suriage correctly. From what I've understood it's sliding your shinai directly upwards, and strike, say men. But since the other person strikes downwards, though not exactly shomen (on centerline), still hitting on men. Isn't this situation invalid for me to get an ippon? Not sure I understand the concept of suriage.

If I want to deflect my opponent's shinai more, then I would sweep the shinai upwards in a crescent shape, that becomes harai-waza, isn't it?

Think Kata no 5.

[Ignatz]

I though only one person can have center at a time, or am I sadly mistaken.
Imagine this, you are at kamae, issoku itto maii. Both of you have the tip of your shinai pointed at the other guys throat. You both step in. What happens? One, or both, shinai is displaced from the center (shinai gets wider at the tsuba). Whoever is stronger will hit tsuki.
Suriagi is the same principle.

[KhawMengLee]

When your opponent moves in for men, he may have the center but then you regain center as you raise to parry...on his downstroke your upstroke breaks his cut down centerline and then you now have control of center to cut men.

[Darknails]

Thanks to all for the prompt replies.


Think Kata no 5.

In Kata 5 the suriage does feel suspeciously like an upward harai-waza as an oji-waza, because it's a semicircle upward motion. Can someone clarify the difference between suriage- and harai- waza? (I know the former is sliding up and the latter slapping)

[Ignatz]

In Kata 5 the suriage does feel suspeciously like an upward harai-waza as an oji-waza, because it's a semicircle upward motion.
Not really, it may seem to you that it is because you start with your sword is rotated slightly to the right because of uchidachi using jodan and, as a response, you point to his left kote slightly raising the tip of your sword.
When uchidachi attacks you move your sword straight up.
If you are making a semi-circle I think you are doing it wrong.

Suriage is a parry, harai is a sweep.

[NorthernKendoka]

As far as I know harai is allways an shikake-waza, the objective is to take the center so you can strike. Suriage is allways an oji-waza where you deflect an incoming attack as you raise you shinai.

Ijima-sensei described harai (-age and otoshi) as more of slaping you opponents shinai to the side and then attack. Since the opponent's shinai in this situation isn't moving you will need to use some force to get it moving and out of the way.
Suriage is when you respond to the opponents attck by sliding along the opponents shinai. In suriage you move the opponent's shinai slightly off-center and let your the momentum of you opponent's attack amplify your suriage.

Doing an harai as oji-waza would be a bit pointless since you would be fighting brute force with brute force instead of using your opponent's momentum to your advantage.

So in my oppinion it's both purpose and execution that decides which is which. Well at least that's how I been told.

[Danny Boy]

In kata 5 its a suriage (sweeping the opponents incoming shinai out of the chushin).

As Love said, Harai is the technique where you destroy the kamae of your opponent by striking/sweeping his shinai out of the centre line.

Harai : sweep in chudan done as an entry techinque.

Suriage : sweeping the incoming shinai away executed as a counter-attack.

[Ignatz]

In kata 5 its a suriage (sweeping the opponents incoming shinai out of the chushin).

As Love said, Harai is the technique where you destroy the kamae of your opponent by striking/sweeping his shinai out of the centre line.

Harai : sweep in chudan done as an entry techinque.

Suriage : sweeping the incoming shinai away executed as a counter-attack.
Danny, I think you are wrong here. Suriage and Harai are completely different things. Harai is a sweep but suriage is a deflection/parry where your sword/bokken/shinai should not pass the center line either way. You have to trust that it will work. It is the sword/bokken/shinai that does the work.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Harai means sweep, it is always (as I understand it) shikake-waza, meaning that you initiate the waza yourself, striking the opponent's shinai aside and then hitting your target.

Suriage means "sliding up" and is always oji-waza, so it is a sliding deflection of an incoming attack where your shinai is moving upwards. The upwards motion of your shinai becomes the upward motion of your attack.

Harai-waza can be accomplished by moving your shinai straight sideways, or at an angle (either up or down) or in a semi-circle (either up or down), and you can hit from either side. Mechanically it tends to be more percussive than suriage, but really when you are doing harai-waza moving up either at an angle or a semi-circle, technically it isn't a whole lot different than suriage-waza aside from the fact that you are not dealing with an incoming attack. Many people percussively knock an incoming attack aside and counter, that seems to get classified as suriage-waza even though there's no slide and not much upward motion during the block itself.

So the short answer is that they are related but different, but IMO it's sufficient to think of one as shikake-waza and the other as oji-waza.

[Suiken]

I made the same experience as Neil and for variations you can often hear special term such as harai-otoshi(sweeping from above), omote-harai, gyaku-harai. However there are sensei, who define these waza a little bit different and also mix the explanation with uchi-otoshi (which I would call the percussively knocking aside of an incoming attack) and this can be quite confusing.
Just try to practice what you see and you can't do anything wrong.

[walnut]

After making an idiot of myself in the Yokomen thread, I should probably spend more time biting my tongue, but...

One other thing that distinguishes harai waza from suriage waza is the part of the shinai that you use. Harai waza is most efective when done with the mono-uchi (the upper third of the shinai, from the nakayui to the kensaki) as that gives you the most power with the least amount of movement. Suriage waza should be done with the shinogi (the side of the shinai) on the lower third of the shinai (not including the tsuka, of course). I was taught to do this with a han-en, or half-circle, motion using the wrists, which sounds to me like the crescent that Darknails originally mentioned. This motion shouldn’t be too big, just enough to knock your opponent’s shinai off center. For example, in kote suriage-men you would turn your wrists to the right as you swing upward such that your opponent’s kensen is swept off target by your shinai’s shinogi above the tsuba. The rest is just a straight up and down men strike. Does that make sense?

[ratdeau]

After making an idiot of myself in the Yokomen thread, I should probably spend more time biting my tongue, but...

One other thing that distinguishes harai waza from suriage waza is the part of the shinai that you use. Harai waza is most efective when done with the mono-uchi (the upper third of the shinai, from the nakayui to the kensaki) as that gives you the most power with the least amount of movement. Suriage waza should be done with the shinogi (the side of the shinai) on the lower third of the shinai (not including the tsuka, of course). I was taught to do this with a han-en, or half-circle, motion using the wrists, which sounds to me like the crescent that Darknails originally mentioned. This motion shouldn’t be too big, just enough to knock your opponent’s shinai off center. For example, in kote suriage-men you would turn your wrists to the right as you swing upward such that your opponent’s kensen is swept off target by your shinai’s shinogi above the tsuba. The rest is just a straight up and down men strike. Does that make sense?

Yes. I would add that the nakayui stays in the center line.

kote suriage men
http://www.kendo.lv/images/animation/suriage-waza.gif

[tantadi]

Harai waza is most efective when done with the mono-uchi (the upper third of the shinai, from the nakayui to the kensaki) as that gives you the most power with the least amount of movement. Suriage waza should be done with the shinogi (the side of the shinai) on the lower third of the shinai (not including the tsuka, of course).
Sure about that last one? I've been thaught to do suriage with the upper part of the shinai. Which the gif in the last post shows.

[Ignatz]

Let's look at what Neil said earlier:

Suriage means "sliding up" and is always oji-waza, so it is a sliding deflection of an incoming attack where your shinai is moving upwards. The upwards motion of your shinai becomes the upward motion of your attack.
Now, how can the upward motion of your shinai deflect the attack. Look at your shinai. What do you see? It is skinny at the tip and it gets fatter as it goes to the tsuba. So if you just held it steady, immovable from side to side and ran another shinai along it, the second shinai would be deflected off center.
So yes, you will make initial contact with the upper part but it is the shinai itself that makes it work, not pushing or sweeping aside.

[tantadi]

Yep, the tip and slide it off. But to do suriage the kihon way, the attackers men cut has to be like in kata nr. 5. Then I can do suriage..;-)

[Darknails]

Harai means sweep, it is always (as I understand it) shikake-waza, meaning that you initiate the waza yourself, striking the opponent's shinai aside and then hitting your target.

In the book "Kendo: Elements, Rules, and Philosophy" by Tokeshi, it clearly states that Harai-waza can be used as oji-waza as well as shikaki-waza. As the opponents shinai comes down one can draw a upward semi-circle. Immediately after the harai the kensen should be at the centerline to counter-strike.

I guess, also from some of the replies, in Suriage your shinai is always in the centerline whereas in Harai your kensen is momentarily away from it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Neil Gendzwill]

What Ignatz describes is advanced. Most people move their hands a little. If you are doing suriage on the backside (ura) then I keep the kensen on the centre line and rotate my hands out. If you are doing it on the frontside (omote) then I keep my hands centred but take the kensen offline to the right a bit.

I've always heard harai-waza described as shikake-waza, but I'm perfectly prepared to hear it classified as something else. In practice, there's a lot of overlap.

[Kent Enfield]

The way I’ve been taught, there are two fundamental differences between suriage- and harai-waza. The first is straight forward: harai-waza is always shikake waza, whereas surai-age is always oji-waza. Yes, I know some people don’t follow that convention, but that’s how I’ve been taught, and the same as the classification in any official ZNKR publication I’ve seen.

The second difference is often subtle, but is a specific difference (again, that way I’ve been taught). In harai-waza, the tsuka stays on the center line while the mono-uchi moves off and then on line. During suriage-waza, the mono-uchi stays on the centerline while the tsuka moves off then back on line. Again, I know that not everyone does these waza the same way. I find that for suri-age, if the mono-uchi moves to intercept the strike while the tsuka stays on center, as it does when I do harai-waza, the timing is much less forgiving than if the opposite holds. And as for the straight up and down version, I find that even more difficult, especially as it doesn’t seem to work if aite is striking even a little bit diagonally from the outside, as is common for kote. But then I’m not very good, and suriage is far from my tokui-waza.

I find that practice of the bokuto kihon is a great place to experiment with these things. But, as always, do what your sensei tell you. They have a good reason they want it done the way they do.

[DCPan]

Suriage waza should be done with the shinogi (the side of the shinai) on the lower third of the shinai (not including the tsuka, of course). ...Does that make sense?

Makes sense for kote-suriage-men, but what about men-suriage-men ala Kata #5? (Then again, I personally find kata #5 to be more like harai than suriage in nature....)

[walnut]

Makes sense for kote-suriage-men, but what about men-suriage-men ala Kata #5? (Then again, I personally find kata #5 to be more like harai than suriage in nature....)
I think the basic principal is very similar for kata #5. You start with uchidachi in hidari jodan and shidachi is in chudan with the kensen on uchidathi's left kote. Uchidachi slides their right foot forward and makes a men strike. With the kensen starting out to the right of center, shidachi steps back and swings up while making the han-en motion into the uchidachi's attack. If the maai is correct the contact should occur between the monouchi of the uchidachi's bokuto and the shinogi on the lower third of the blade portion of the shidatchi's bokuto. This should also occur at men height. The shidachi will then complete the up-swing, step forward with the right foot and complete the strike. Again, if the maai is correct the shidachi's monouchi should (without being over-extended) end up stopping directly above the uchidachi's head.

Kata #6 is also suriage waza and works on pretty much the same principal.

Remember, the "age" in suriage comes from the transitive verb "ageru" meaning "to raise," and in this case the object of that verb is your opponents shinai. While you probably won't actually raise your opponent's shinai like you would in ura-kara haratte kote, there is definitely a feeling of raising your opponent's attack to make it invalid. Next time you practice suriage waza, see if you can feel it both on the giving and recieving end.


kote suriage men
http://www.kendo.lv/images/animation/suriage-waza.gif
Judging from the height of their hands and the step to the left on the part of the person on the right, I would say that this is men suriage-men, but I think you're exactly right about the nakayui.

[DCPan]

I think the basic principal is very similar for kata #5. You start with uchidachi in hidari jodan and shidachi is in chudan with the kensen on uchidathi's left kote.

The point I was trying to make was that superficially, it is different from the description that you and others gave.

In kata #5:

1. You use the monouchi area instead of the lower 1/3 of the blade.

2. There's less sliding of the blade and more of a percussive element.

3. As you start in seigan, your hands are usually on the centerline and your tip actually starts off center, where as people commonly define harai as a han-en where the tip goes off center while suriage as a han-en where the tsuba-moto goes off center. (Though, I suppose you could say since the tip doesn't move past the centerline, it is within the bounds of suriage).

When visualizing, I almost always think of it as that contraption where there is five balls hanging on something like a swing...when you swing a certain number of balls on one end, the same number gets displaced on the other end.

In principle, the motion of moving from seigan to chudan is sufficient displacement along with the raising of the shinai for the deflection.

With that feeling, it really feels more like hajiku than harai as well.


If the maai is correct the contact should occur between the monouchi of the uchidachi's bokuto and the shinogi on the lower third of the blade portion of the shidatchi's bokuto. This should also occur at men height. The shidachi will then complete the up-swing, step forward with the right foot and complete the strike. Again, if the maai is correct the shidachi's monouchi should (without being over-extended) end up stopping directly above the uchidachi's head.

I don't think so. The footwork here is like nuki-men (kata #1)...even if you complete whiff the suriage and didn't make contact, your footwork should result in it being an impromtu nuki-men.

If you are as deep as you describe above, you would probably get hit if you missed the suriage.



Remember, the "age" in suriage comes from the transitive verb "ageru" meaning "to raise," and in this case the object of that verb is your opponents shinai. While you probably won't actually raise your opponent's shinai like you would in ura-kara haratte kote, there is definitely a feeling of raising your opponent's attack to make it invalid.

That really doesn't change the discussioin though...as I could very well say it feels more like "harai-age" than "suri-age".

IMHO, like others have mentioned, if you do it with a bokuto, the difference between harai and suriage is obvious....with a shinai though, the distinction is really more academic in nature....

YMMV.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I'm quite confident that there is such a thing as harai waza used as a counter, since I'm constantly told by two particular (unrelated but both high grade) teachers to stop doing kote-harai-men and to do kote-suriage-men. At the end of the day, since harai waza just means "sweep technique" then it's pretty ridiculous to decide that people can only use the term in a very specific context. Whatever the case, I don't really think it's all that important.
People are just describing the way that they do suriage waza or harai waza and deciding that that's how it "should" be. For me, suriage or harai performed with the bottom third of the shinai is insane, but if it works for you then there's no reason to change it. There is no such thing as an absolute standard. Even the ZNKR guidelines are only put together by a very select few people who can't be expected to reflect all viewpoints. If you really want to know if what you're doing is OK, get yourself to a shiai with a bunch of high-grade referees, try the technique, and see how many flags go up. If they go up for you, then it's fine. If they don't go up, then you need more work. If they go up for the other guy - back to the drawing board. There's no surer test.

[kurisu]

Harai waza - used to create an opening by sweeping opponents shinai.
Suriage waza - used when opponent makes a strike.

[tantadi]

People are just describing the way that they do suriage waza or harai waza and deciding that that's how it "should" be. For me, suriage or harai performed with the bottom third of the shinai is insane, but if it works for you then there's no reason to change it. . With bottom third you mean the part closest to the tsuka, right?

[Kingofmyrrh]

With bottom third you mean the part closest to the tsuka, right?
Indeed I do! But just because we both think this way doesn't mean we won't get hit any other way... ;)

[tantadi]

In harai-waza, the tsuka stays on the center line while the mono-uchi moves off and then on line. During suriage-waza, the mono-uchi stays on the centerline while the tsuka moves off then back on line. Again, I know that not everyone does these waza the same way.
That is the way I have learnt it as well. And I think I can not get suriage to work because my upswing is not fast enough to catch the opponents shinai so that it will actually use most of my shinai to slide off the target. If the opponent does not cut quite straight, there will be even less possibility to make it happen. I really want suriage to work for me, but it is one of those things...

[Ignatz]

I think if you use your eyes ans see he is not cutting quite straight you can slightly rotate your body (not the shinai) and make suriagi work. Easier said than done.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In kata #5:

1. You use the monouchi area instead of the lower 1/3 of the blade.

2. There's less sliding of the blade and more of a percussive element.If kata #5 is percussive for you, I think you need to work on making it more of a slide. #6 tends to be more percussive, often because we're trying to make the motion very crisp and also because the motion is so much smaller.

[tantadi]

Thanks, I'll try that!

[Ignatz]

If kata #5 is percussive for you, I think you need to work on making it more of a slide. #6 tends to be more percussive, often because we're trying to make the motion very crisp and also because the motion is so much smaller.
In #6 I try to make the wrist movement like the way I learned chiburi and also in kote kaeshi men (which I learned as kote uki(floating) men)

The hands come pretty much straight up with just a flick of the wrist at the right time.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In #6 I try to make the wrist movement like the way I learned chiburi and also in kote kaeshi men (which I learned as kote uki(floating) men)

The hands come pretty much straight up with just a flick of the wrist at the right time.I keep the kensen on-line and roll the wrists out as I raise. If you used time-lapse photography the motion of the bokken would form a section of a cone. Some people just move the bokken sideways and knock the attack aside but I think that is incorrect waza for kata #6.

[Ignatz]

I keep the kensen on-line and roll the wrists out as I raise. If you used time-lapse photography the motion of the bokken would form a section of a cone. Some people just move the bokken sideways and knock the attack aside but I think that is incorrect waza for kata #6.
I think so too, not because I am any great shakes at it but I think we forget the curvature of the bokken/sword which is then simulated in the shinai. We don't let the sword/shiai do it's job because we don't trust it.
After my last test Mark Uchida sensei said to me that I should start using the kata in my kendo. I have given that a great deal of thought since then. Before, I thought of kata as an entirely different thing than shinai kendo but now I do not.

[tantadi]

In kata nr. 6 there is the step to the side, so how much sideways movement of the hands do you actually need...?

[Ignatz]

In kata nr. 6 there is the step to the side, so how much sideways movement of the hands do you actually need...?
I think your movement to the side is after and not for avoiding the kote strike.
I think you should roll your wrists rather than move your bokken sideways like a sweep.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've always done the movement with the cut. The step to the side with the left is with the raise of the bokken, the step forward with the right with the cut.

[Ignatz]

The reason I asy "after" is that, from Tantadi's post, she is looking at it more like a nuki waza rather than suriagi.

[DCPan]

If kata #5 is percussive for you, I think you need to work on making it more of a slide. #6 tends to be more percussive, often because we're trying to make the motion very crisp and also because the motion is so much smaller.

Yeah...I tend to find that if I do more slide, there's a higher chance of uchidachi striking my tsuba...as to whether it's because I did the suriage incorrectly or whether the uchidachi is going too deep, that I'm not sure about.

:D

[DCPan]

#6 tends to be more percussive, often because we're trying to make the motion very crisp and also because the motion is so much smaller.

Perhaps what I said has been misleading...I think because in #6, the motion is smaller, it feels less percussive...contact time is shorter in #6, as you said.

[tantadi]

The reason I asy "after" is that, from Tantadi's post, she is looking at it more like a nuki waza rather than suriagi.
Yes..I think it is aestethics connected to the levels of the performers. My sensei will see the suriage on the step left and the cut on the right, even if that means that the suriage is a unecessary. So that it is clearly separated movements.

[sainueng]

Yes..I think it is aestethics connected to the levels of the performers. My sensei will see the suriage on the step left and the cut on the right, even if that means that the suriage is a unecessary. So that it is clearly separated movements.

I don't think the step left makes the suriage unnecessary. The step is very small and insufficient for nuki so I think the suriage is necessary. The step to the left can also be viewed as getting a better angle to your opponent's wrist, imo.

[Ignatz]

The step to the left can also be viewed as getting a better angle to your opponent's wrist, imo.
I agree with that. Pretty small step just to get better angle on the strike so you don't hit tsuba after the suriagi.
I think it is a very, very compact thing (and if I keep practicing maybe it will be for me)

[tantadi]

I'm not saying that we do a really big step, but it is not very small either. What you are saying sounds correct to me. (My sensei way of making everything big and clear might cloud this technique.)

[jackchen]

Is suriage meant as an insurance as you evade the attack and counter?

[Charlie]

Hmmm. I don't think so, Jack, I think suriage is much more active and invested.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Some people may think of suriagi-waza or kaeshi-waza as "insurance" but actually the timing is quite different than a pure evasion (nuki-waza). One thing is for sure - they are safer techniques as most people don't have the footwork to do nuki-waza well, except for nuki-doh which is pretty standard.

[JByrd]

Now, how can the upward motion of your shinai deflect the attack. Look at your shinai. What do you see? It is skinny at the tip and it gets fatter as it goes to the tsuba. So if you just held it steady, immovable from side to side and ran another shinai along it, the second shinai would be deflected off center.


The problem with that explanation is that suriage waza would work only with a shinai, which is fatter at the handle end, and would not work with an actual sword, which is not fatter at the handle end. Any technique that would not work with a real sword would presumably be invalid in Kendo.

[JSchmidt]

The problem with that explanation is that suriage waza would work only with a shinai, which is fatter at the handle end, and would not work with an actual sword, which is not fatter at the handle end. Any technique that would not work with a real sword would presumably be invalid in Kendo.

But the slight rotation of the wrist will make the curvature of the blade take care of that.

[Ignatz]

The problem with that explanation is that suriage waza would work only with a shinai, which is fatter at the handle end, and would not work with an actual sword, which is not fatter at the handle end. Any technique that would not work with a real sword would presumably be invalid in Kendo.
Jakob has it. And the rotation of the wrist is just like chiburi in certain schools.

[Charlie]

Hang on, does the wrist curve when this is performed with shinken? I thought suriage was performed in a way that was sort of a slap to the side, blade flat against blade flat.

[David]

I need to work on my suriage waza. Every time I try to use it, my opponent usually gets me with some type of kaeshi waza.

[Ignatz]

Charlie, I don't think it is a slap although manypeople do it.How about men suriage do? Many people do block hit, one two. It is a one count. If it were a sword you would ride the attacker with your sharp edge (which is the hardest part of the sword) and cut.

Same with kote suriage men. You are doing a one count.

My opinion only of course but one shared with many others my senior. Also I can tell you that I get it right one out of maybe twenty times and every time I get it right the other guy smiles because it is sooooooo right.

Of course when the kote attackl comes in sideways it won't work but this is where the high school block that everyone hates comes into play. If your opponent is a sideways kote man he will have a tell and you can start the block as soon as he moves so you have time for block-hit (again, a one count). With that technique you usually won't have time for the hit if the attack comes straight in because you can't be sure if he is attacking kote, men or do.

BTW- I once saw the result of a test of a new sword in Chiba. They put a reject blade in the vise, sharp side down and did kesa cut with the new sword. It cut avout to inches into the steel without chipping the edge.

That being the case, the guy with the better sword also has an advantage.

[Halcyon]

I agree with John and Jakob. Suriage -- whether it's with a katana or shinai -- is not really a "slap" from the side. You are using the shinogi of your blade to deflect your opponent's blade.

However, not quite sure how one would pull off men-suriage-do. It would seem to be more of a men-kaeshi-do. Though even with kaeshi, it would ideally be a one-beat, not a two-step motion.

[Charlie]

Okay, keep in mind I am not very good at suriage techniques myself but:

There is a suriage in kata #5 that is not performed with the edge, it is flat on flat or, perhaps, back of blade (mune) against flat (shinogi) and uchidachi's blade pushes, as I understand it, shidachi's blade aside.

There is kote-suriage-kote in kata #6 and again isn't this flat against flat, a slap of blades? Certainly, you don't use the edge of the blade.

I know in shinai kendo you can turn your edge out against the attack and then bring it back in as you counterattack but if kata is an example isn't it more like, say, two sheets of paper sliding against each other?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I thought suriage was performed in a way that was sort of a slap to the side, blade flat against blade flat.Suriage means "sliding up". It's not a slap. Suriage is performed with the shinogi, the ridgeline running along the side of the blade.

[Shazzanzzz]

from my experiences, very minimal is needed for kaeshi and suriage. for suriage, i was taught to do a half circle upwards, not slap to the side. kaeshi for me is more of a block then attack, but should still be done in one step/count.

timing wise, i think suriage should be started earlier than nuki and kaeshi is a little after nuki.

[Charlie]

I think this is one of those things that is hard to describe, easier to show - but then still difficult to do and do well.

"Slap to the side" was a poor choice of words. "Sliding up," a better choice. As Neil has often noted it's even harder to do with shinken or iaito than with bokuto. Me, when I do those techniques in those kata, I come up at kind of an angle into the oncoming blade. Well, in #5, anyway. #6, I really do kind of slap it or half-circle into it. I have a lot to improve in that regard.

Regardless, you don't use the edge, although I see it done in shinai kendo all the time. Not saying it can't or shouldn't be done - Iggie's experience and the advice of his seniors is just as valid as anything I'm saying.

[Halcyon]

There is a suriage in kata #5 that is not performed with the edge, it is flat on flat or, perhaps, back of blade (mune) against flat (shinogi) and uchidachi's blade pushes, as I understand it, shidachi's blade aside.
Shidachi uses his/her shinogi to deflect uchidachi's blade, which is coming straight down.

There is kote-suriage-kote in kata #6 and again isn't this flat against flat, a slap of blades? Certainly, you don't use the edge of the blade.
Again, shidachi is using the shinogi.

I know in shinai kendo you can turn your edge out against the attack and then bring it back in as you counterattack but if kata is an example isn't it more like, say, two sheets of paper sliding against each other?
Well, a katana is obviously much thinner than a shinai, but it's still not a two-dimensional object. By twisting your wrist ever so slightly, you not only avail yourself of the cross-section created by shinogi, but you also avail yourself of the curvature of the monouchi, which adds extra "cover." You certainly don't want to apply any significant stress perpendicular to the katana, since blades are notoriously weak to impact from that direction.

[JByrd]

But the slight rotation of the wrist will make the curvature of the blade take care of that.

I was addressing the reason that was presented, namely, the difference in thickness of the shinai.

So, if it is a wrist turn and the blade curvature that does it, are you turning the wrist clockwise, or counterclockwise, when you receive suriage on the ura side of the blade?

It seems to me that only counterclockwise rotation could possibly work for ura suriage men. If you keep your hands on the center line and turn your wrists counterclockwise, the curvature of the blade breaks to the left, correct? If your blade curves off to the left of the center line, it has no chance of impacting the opponent's blade, which is coming down on the center line. To catch their blade with yours you would need to bring your hands right of the center line to compensate for the fact that the sword is curving off to the left of center.

I was always taught that the upswing for suriage waza is an arc that takes the hands off the center line (as Shazzanzzz describes). It seems to me that's the best, most reliable way to ensure you don't fail to catch their shinai/blade. Going straight up and relying on the 2 cm increase in width at the handle of the shinai doesn't sound like a high probablility proposition to me, and wouldn't work with a real sword. Neither does a simple wrist rotation explain to me how you could impact their blade. The only explanation that makes sense to me is that the hands have to come slightly off the center line on the upstroke.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The way I do it and teach it for the ura side is to keep the kensen dead centre and rotate the hands counter-clockwise out. Your left hand should stay within your body but I do take it offline as you describe. While your hands are rotating out, they are also lifting up so that the deflection becomes the upswing on your counterattack. Normally this is done with one step.

[Halcyon]

Same here. When doing suriage on ura side, I've been taught to keep kensen in the center (or at most, following the outside arc of your opponent's mengane) while shifting the hands to the right a bit and rotating counter-clockwise.

[Ignatz]

Plus, since your hands are moving up and forward you are in position for the men strike. All one compact movement.

[Fonsz]

Has anyone you performed this waza according to the several descriptions here? With that I mean in a shiai/nasty Ji Geiko? Because sometimes if you react to a fast men you're always too late. I mean the men is leading in this waza and unless he isn't telegraphing in some way that a men is on the way I find it hard to perform this waza. Your learned thoughts please here.

[jackchen]

I still don't quite understand suriage.

Let's take men-suriage-men for example. I can think of 2 situations.

1) Attacker attacks straight at my men
- I step back, slide up my sword against his.
- His sword gets knock off alignment (but the sword path itself is stll relatively the same, just no hasuji now) and drops down
- I step forward and cut his men.

2) Attacker attacks straight at my men
- I remain in my position, slide my sword up against his.
- His sword tip falls OUTSIDE of my body.
- I cut his men


In situation 1, isn't suriage more of an insurance? Basically even if I don't get his sword, I'm still doing nuki-waza.

In situation 2, my suriage has to be more percussive to knock his tip outside of my body right? If I simply just mess with his hasuji like his situation 1, the sword will hit my hand. Though no hasuji now, I'll still get a scratch or something?

[Fonsz]

I still don't quite understand suriage.

Let's take men-suriage-men for example. I can think of 2 situations.

1) Attacker attacks straight at my men
- I step back, slide up my sword against his.
- His sword gets knock off alignment (but the sword path itself is stll relatively the same, just no hasuji now) and drops down
- I step forward and cut his men.

2) Attacker attacks straight at my men
- I remain in my position, slide my sword up against his.
- His sword tip falls OUTSIDE of my body.
- I cut his men


In situation 1, isn't suriage more of an insurance? Basically even if I don't get his sword, I'm still doing nuki-waza.

In situation 2, my suriage has to be more percussive to knock his tip outside of my body right? If I simply just mess with his hasuji like his situation 1, the sword will hit my hand. Though no hasuji now, I'll still get a scratch or something?
What you decribe as insurance is a matter of timing.
If your timing is a bit off you get situation 1 it's an oji-waza and falls into the Go no Sen category. Because the attacker is coming forward you have to step back to get a proper cut.
In number 2 your timing is a bit earlier and you do not have to step back to get a yuko datotsu with the counter men.
If someone aims for your men there are no scratches because usually the men uchi doesn't end at crotch level. But just on your men.
Glad to hear that you're doing Kendo now and that you're philosophizing about it.
Give my regards to the rest of the Singapore Kenshi.:)

[jackchen]

Hello Fonsz,
I'm not exactly training in the SKC now that I'm in the army, no time for that.

:)

[rfoxmich]

Suriage - literally sliding upwards...most people have figured out that it is about owning the center. However it would be limiting to think that the only way to own the center is to have both the tsuka and the sakigawa in the center simultaneously.
When you slide upwards for suriage I think of the shinai as slanting through the center with the center point being about the point of contact between my shinai and my opponent's (well that's actually a lie, there's no thinking involved, but that's how I practice it so that I don't have to think about it).
The diagonal position of the shina should not be extreme, very slight,but now as you slide upwards, along their shinai as they come in, this diagnoal position redirects the shinai to the side. In kata gohonme, this is easy because your bokken is really already set up in the proper angle as you raise it and point the kensen towards the uchitachi's fists. That will give you the idea.
The 'flick' that Neil talks about happens as you contact and as the aite's shinai is already directed out. The purpose I use this 'flick' for is to reposition >my< shinai to tsuka and sakigawa centered so that my follow-on cut will be more correct.
Some people like 'picturesque ways to look at this so grasshoppers.. ;-) your shinai as it slides upwards forms one side of the roof of your house, off of which your aite's shinai will fall like the gentle rain.

[Fonsz]

Hello Fonsz,
I'm not exactly training in the SKC now that I'm in the army, no time for that.

:)
Sorry to hear about you being in uniform now. But surely even in the Singapore Army you get some leave to pick up the remnants of your fresh Kendo career? If not carry on, and keep up the good work.:bandit: