People who quit kendo

[Hai_hai]

Do you know people who quit kendo right after they got bogu and why?

I know of people who quit kendo only within a couple of weeks of starting (without bogu) but that's not a big deal, i.e. blisters, not interesting, etc.

[berghaan]

people come and go all the time.
Can have various reasons, usually its just about time and such.
Like training hours have become inconvenient or they have a new job or children etc etc.

Or sometimes people have new interests.

[kendomushi]

Most of the time we see people leave because of thier relationships. Family requirements or a new bf/gf taking up their time.
Less common is practice times are not convenient, or they had too many misconceptions about what kendo really is when they started and that caused disappointment they couldn't overcome.

[Neil Gendzwill]

In my experience, there are 3 main quitting points:

1. Within the first 2 or 3 weeks, as people simply decide that kendo isn't for them. Or that they will not become Musashi in 3 easy lessons.

2. After a couple of months when we start making practices harder in preparation for wearing bogu.

3. After getting bogu. Kendo with bogu is much harder than without. All of a sudden you have trouble seeing and breathing, you're running harder than you were before but with 15 extra pounds of stuff, and some other guy is hitting you over the head.

I'd say we lose about 50% of people on the first 2 stages, and then 30% on stage 3. So in spring, we'll have about 20% of those who started in September. We might get half of those coming back the next September, so our overall attrition rate is 90% or so for beginners over the course of a year.

If they survive one year, then usually they quit for reasons unrelated to kendo (moving, illness, other responsibilities etc).

[Hai_hai]

Oh, I was mainly looking for answers related to those who just get bogu and then quit. I understand there are personal circumstances that would take a person away from any extracurricular activity.
I don't see why someone would spend a couple of hundred dollars on bogu and then quit. Where I go, there is no rental bogu.

Difficulty breathing and seeing? Oh, I've never heard that.

[Neil Gendzwill]

All of our beginners rent bogu for the first year or two (or more if they are students). We recommend against buying bogu until you've rented for the simple reason that most people quit. Maybe less people would quit if they buy, but having money tied up in bogu is a pretty poor reason for staying in kendo - I'd rather they stay because they like kendo, not because they feel obligated. If someone tries bogu and likes it and then wants to buy, then we help him purchase an appropriate set.

[megumisita]

I'll make my contribution simply by saying;

Lack of Committment

[etherknot]

"1. Within the first 2 or 3 weeks, as people simply decide that kendo isn't for them. Or that they will not become Musashi in 3 easy lessons."

heheh it makes me wonder if they saw the "martial arts" website by that weird person who was claiming all sorts of outrageous things. You know the one I'm talking about! The one where it was very pathetic yet laughable picture of smoke and the takedowns etc etc... Oh just go back through the fora archives.


Another thing I wonder is... how many people quit Kendo after realizing that it's not what they expected? I mean how many realize that they don't get to dawn starched black outfits and go around on assassination jobs at night. :)

or...

"Oh.. Kendo isn't Karate?"

[Hongsermeier]

I think one thing that scares people off is that first men they take, after putting on their bogu. It's usually from another beginner. I used to practice with a guy that would make your ears ring. I'm so glad to have advanced to just getting beat, not beat up.

[m_french]

Brad, that wouldn't be howard would it???......or wait a minute we're you talking about me???? You didn't Move down here just to get away did you??? No wonder you had that look of panick when I told you I got a job in LA. :beard:

[Hongsermeier]

I forgot about Howard. I was think the French guy with the 2 little kids.
I don't mind your men so much as the French ear waza.

[m_french]

okay, okay so my yoko men was a little low in that takai, but hey I got your attention didn't I?:beard:

[Hongsermeier]

yeah, for a day or two

[Hyaku]

From a point of view in Japan there are a lot off quitters. These are people that have practiced for 11 or twelve years non stop.
Perhaps quitters is the wrong word. They retire after High School or after University

I find it so sad because I would really like to see these people come back a few times a week to help out. In my dojo they win or are runners up at Japanese major championships, then just dissapear.

From what I can see the reasons are twofold. Partly they just burn out. Secondly starting work puts them back in the Shoshinsha bracket of their new world of work. They are expected to work long hours and do all the menial stuff again.

They start life scrubbing the dojo floor and move on to the office one!

Hyaku

[Neil Gendzwill]

We get those guys here in North America. A lot of them quit because they weren't having any fun. It was all brutally hard training with the goal to win for their school, and that leaves them with not much motivation to continue when they have a choice about it. Once they experience a recreational dojo, they find they want to come back to kendo because it's fun. Then we get to fix their high-school kendo into adult kendo, hopefully before they hurt themselves.

[Hongsermeier]

I can realte to Hyaku's point. My brother in law went to Osaka for the prefecture championships when in University. When he graduated, he quit. I told him he has to help teach me and my son when he's old enough to start.

[samurai999]

hehe.. Speaking about people who leave because of relationships.. My sensei has been trying to form a Palo Alto "womens team" and has his plans always derailed because the women decide to start a family and get pregnant. :D

People have left from my dojo because of the above plus the following.

1.) Concussion caused by men struck too close.

2.) People who thought Rurouni Kenshin was "cool" and wanted to learn "kenjutsu" and found out something totally different.

3.) People who have more bigger committments than kendo. (ie grad school, long work hours, etc)

Tim

[PhilMcLaughlin]

90 to 95 % drop out rate from ANY physical activity is pretty much the norm. I got this from one of the BKA guys who teaches sport science so this isnt unusual.

Its noticeable becasue there arent as many people in Kendo as in judo or karate or Football (soccer to you US types), baseball, hockey etc

Ive seen the phenoemnon of people all fired up and wanting all the kit, getting it and leaving. perhaps as Neil says its because thats when life gets disctinctly uncomfortable

other typical exit points

first night (or couple of nights)

6 months

1 year

Shodan

Sandan

cheers

[Hongsermeier]

Tim..yeah that pregnancy thing really messes things up for the girls. Tanaka Sensei threatend to remove a part of my body after Miwako got pregnant.

[nodachi]

So far everyone seems to be mentioning points in the kendo time line where people quit.

My question after all these bits of info is:

How do you keep people doing kendo? What do you do or what can you do to prevent people from quiting at these various stages?

[JSchmidt]

"How do you keep people doing kendo?"

For beginners, you have to make sure that you don't alienate them and make them feel a part of the practice, instead of the 'other group in the corner, wafting a shinai about'.

For the rest of it, I don't think there's much you can do. Once you're past ikkyu, it doesnt get easier, just harder, but for me, that's (for me anyway) part of the attraction of kendo.
Shodan, people quit because they've achieved a goal. Sure it's a minor one in terms of kendo, but for most of the rest of the world, it's a huge achievement. (The infamous 'black belt').
Sandan, because (I suspect) it suddenly starts to become very difficult.

Jakob

[m_french]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
Tanaka Sensei threatend to remove a part of my body after Miwako got pregnant.

Pinkie?:beard:

[Hongsermeier]

Frenchie....slightly larger than that;)

[KENSHIN]

I think the reasons are endless. Very hard to even narrow it down to what it could be assumed as being.

[Anarei]

If you ask me, the adrenalin rush from delivering a smacking good cut on someone during keiko is a real incentive for staying in training =) Though of course there are other things to consider too, like priorities and how sadistic you are (ie. how much you enjoy beating up a fellow human being)

[Hongsermeier]

Anarei...a good men is nice, but I love a good tsuki-men. :cross_eye

[m_french]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
Anarei...a good men is nice, but I love a good tsuki-men. :cross_eye

What about ramen and a cold beer:beard:

[Karaken]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
"How do you keep people doing kendo?"

Sandan, because (I suspect) it suddenly starts to become very difficult.

Jakob

That and also you have to wait three year till next test - long time if you're on a express schedule to be Hachidan :-)

Center for me.

[Hongsermeier]

Originally posted by m_french


What about ramen and a cold beer:beard:

cold beer? Not me, cold shochu. :cross_eye

[highelf]

I have noticed people quitting because of some senior members can't wait for them to get on the men for full contact. I have heard senior members voice, "I can't wait till you can wear men, then will have fun." Pretty intimidating for a beginner. I feel. Also, notice that among certain senior members, clicks are formed. If your not part of the click, well your out. People are nice to you, but you get the feeling that your not welcome. That is a real bummer. Also, if a beginner is really talented and naturally skilled, they are sometimes ignored.

[Goomba]

I agree with Highelf about the formation of clicks. It appers than no matter what people do (work, sports, etc) clicks form and they have a tendency to alienate people. Sometimes, you will have older students that wish to do keiko with students of equal or greater level, or students that only want to pratice for competition. I am sure there are more examples of this and it really sucks for the beginners.

Another reason I think some new people quit comes from lack of confidence in thier skill (or ability to accept that they do not have a great ammount of skill yet) and motivation. When you are new and see a sensei and other students fighting from different kamae (that you cannot do because you do not know how yet)and bounding around the dojo with ease (which you canot do because you are a beginner and do not know how to yet) kind of lowers your motivation.

And before anyone starts, This did not happen to me. Just things that could happen.

[Jearom]

I started training Kendo this Januari together with 60-70 other rookies in a beginners class.
We trained twice a week, a total of two and a half hours.
A week ago we had our first grading, fourth Kyu.
37 of us showed up and passed the test.
A few others missed because of injuries and other appointments, but rest have fallen through during this semester.
Not once have I heard talk about quitting nor have I seen their end coming, so I can´t really say what makes them quit.
My guess though, would probably be injuries or they simply didn´t like Kendo, go figure that.
But a big portion of the them probably just weren´t ready for what it takes to make it any sport, dedication and discipline, and seeing everybody else moving forward when your not, can be enough to make you quit.

About clicks, my instructors usually hit the pub after our practice on Wednesdays and have a beer and the beginners are encouraged to tag along.
Many from the other classes also join the fray and chat away, about Kendo mostly, and answer any question the rookies might have.
I have through those nights and other get-togethers met many higher ranked people in our club and found them to be kind and friendly, not just anonymous faces behind the grill of a Men.

Next semester we will begin donning Bogu and hopefully we will not lose too many of us during the summer.

See ya in Glasgow
Sweden rules
What more can you say?

[Tako-kun]

60-70 beginners? What a horde! I thought my club was quite big; I'd guess there are maybe sixty members total. You must need a huge floor to practice on. I started in march with a group of about twenty ranging from about ten years old up to about fourty-five; we just had our first grading last week and as far as I can tell only one person seems to have dropped out. I think that reflects well on our sensais and sempais and on the club in general; we are sending 4 Canadian team members to Scotland this summer by the way, yay VCK ;)

[Goomba]

Your dojo sounds pretty cool and laid back. Just like everyone's kendo is diffferent based upon thier personality, I think dojo's tend to run differently depending based upon your sensei's focus.

Wow, 60-70 people in your class. That's a lot shinais swinging around. But very cool. What is the Sensei/Student ratio there?

[supernils]

Originally posted by Jearom
...my instructors usually hit the pub after our practice on Wednesdays and have a beer and the beginners are encouraged to tag along...

We don't always drink beer. Non alcoholic alternatives is actually encouraged.
But the "after keiko" sessions are a great opportunity to have longer and deeper discussions than you have time for at practice.

(instructor at Jearome's dojo)

[Lynn]

wow.....60-70 beginners...that's a lot! our new intake is once a year coz we are a school club. now we usually start off with bout 50 beginners or so. but by the 1st month or so, the number would have dropped to half or less. then by the time the beginners don bougu, only bout 10 or so remained. that's the case for both my batch and my juniors. training really suffers during exam period and post exam holidays....:(
overall, our dropout rate's pegged at 70-80%. from beginner training to bougu at least.....some will quit after they got their bougu though...
as for the formation of clicks, well, that can't be avoided ya. the beginners are new to the club/dojo. while u can be friendly and all, they are not your best friends overnight. the initial period of alienation is unavoidable. as in Jearom's dojo's case, we'll go for drinks and supper after each training as well and beginners are encouraged to join as well but of course it's not a compulsory thing. haha...

[supernils]

I think it's a good idea to let the beginners try Bogu on at an early stage. Just once so that they know what they're up for.
That may also motivate them to train harder because they know they will otherwise have a hard time in Bogu.

[samurai999]

The clicks? I think they are formed mostly by younger kids. Young boys in one group. Young girls in another. Its like high school or middle school again. The other clicks are like the older sensei, the collegiates, and the working class. I really don't see any "alienation" like what Goomba is talking about. People are outgoing and friendly but, they can tell if you are a horses ass or not.

Tim

[Hayashi]

My take on cliques is that you'll find them everywhere. Classes, work, etc. They're by no means unique to kendo... or any particular age group.
In any event, after everyone in the class has gone through someone else's men-from-hell, chances are bonding is going to happen over that =p

[Goomba]

I guess alienation was the wrong word and my examples are a little harsh. but like Hayshi said cliques tend to disolve over time in the dojo.

[James]

Actually Hayashi, Goomba and I are not talking to anyone who doesn't spell and pronounce clique correctly.

Seriously though, I think there are 2 main reason people form groups in kendo.
1) Naturally you form an affinity with people who joined around the same time as you and progress together.
2) Kendo has a high dropout rate and after you have seen hundreds of people join and leave the dojo; it is easy for some people to develop the attitude to not even bother to invest time in, or learn someone's name until they have been around for a while, as it may sem like a waste of time. Unfortunately this affects the people that might most feel alienated.

Our dojo takes beginners throughout the year, so they tend to be few (I can't imagine starting off with 60 or 70?) and get quite a bit of personal attention when they start. Working either in a beginners group, but also as Jakob says, at times integrated into the main group for various drills etc.
We also have pub-geiko after sessions and encourage beginners to come along.

The senseis know who is turning up every week, who is semi-interested, who are pushing themselves to be in a team etc. and I think that as in most groups people will find their own place.

James

[Hai_hai]

Ironic that I brought this topic up. I will be quitting kendo soon for geographical reasons.
: (

[etherknot]

Originally posted by Hai_hai
Ironic that I brought this topic up. I will be quitting kendo soon for geographical reasons.
: (

What! Geographic reasons!? Do you have some inside information about an up and coming earthquake or something?


If there is one thing I have learnt from this forum it's that there is always kendo somewhere. Even in the most weirdest of spots.

[Inouye02]

look at mrkurukuru and myself ...ZIMBABWE man ..

[samurai999]

Originally posted by etherknot

If there is one thing I have learnt from this forum it's that there is always kendo somewhere. Even in the most weirdest of spots.

Not in Nevada... :(

Tim

[Inouye02]

you'd have to have slot machines inside the Dojo..

toooo much noise ....

[Hai_hai]

I've already checked all the US kendo websites and none are near where I am going. Fortunately, I didn't get to the point where I would have bought bogu. Now, I just have a Halloween or cosplay costume now.

It was a hoot but my feet will be less leathery in the long run.

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Inouye02
you'd have to have slot machines inside the Dojo..

toooo much noise ....

Err you mean too much temptation. :D

Tim

[Inouye02]

hai-hai where are you going ?

[Hai_hai]

Owensboro, Kentucky.
Nothing good there but BBQ mutton.

[nodachi]

Don't give up. Keep looking. Some really nice dojos are not on the websites. I go to one that I just found recently and it was a wonderful surprise and a great place to train. I don't know any in your area, but there may still be one.

[sminki]

there are two dojos that i know of in kentucky. western kentucky and central kentucky...

[Inouye02]

kentucky ? hahaha i can hear it now ..

mein.... kotay ..... dooowooo...

[Hongsermeier]

Inouye.....yall makin funa mah axent? :cross_eye

[Inouye02]

sho nuff ...

[Hongsermeier]

It's taken me over 10 years to get ride of it, mostly. Still comes out when I'm drinking. :cross_eye

[sminki]

Regardless of the accent down there, I was really impressed with a 6-dan from Kentucky (I think it was Western Kentucky) who won the kodansha division at the tournament in Chicago last October. I think he's the sensei down there.

[Hai_hai]

I just checked out the AUSKF's new website. Fancy compared to their previous "K-mart" website. No kendo in western kentucky. Just lexington and covington.

[elfboy]

other typical exit points

first night (or couple of nights)

6 months

1 year

Shodan

Sandan

cheers

I can definently see all of the exit points above as being typical - but I don't understand why somebody would quit at Sandan - only because though it's not a very high dan level, at that point, the person should be interested in advancing in rank, not thinking about quitting. And besides, all the years spent training for sandan would be for naught. It's just - why so late if you decide to quit at sandan? At that point, isn't there nothing new that can present a reason to quit? Just strikes me as odd that sandan is a "typical" exit point... Phil, can you clarify your reasoning? Just curious.

[swrdply400mrela]

Well I guess I'll chime in with my own experience.

I did Kendo until I bought bogu, and practiced with bogu for a month. At this point I quit. A few things to note that you guys have already brought up: One, I was the only beginner at the time. I went from beginner to bogu standing in the corner and practicing with the mirror while everyone else had bogu and was doing free practice. Two, our club dojo at the university I attend was for the longest time only grad students. I was the only undergrad the entire time I was there. In addition, everyone was Korean, and I don't - I speak English and Mandarin. All these things definitely made me feel alienated until I wore bogu, but I stuck it out because I enjoyed Kendo.

After more than a month of wearing bogu however, I stopped going and lost motivation. The reason being that I'm a laid back, easy going person. At the time I saw Kendo as too aggressive for my nature. I just don't like fighting unless I have to. Moreover, it felt too competitive. And any sign of serious competition, I lose motivation.

A year and half later, I see my sensei in the engineering building (he's a grad student). I got back in this past May, and I have lost a lot of technique. I regret not speaking with my sensei earlier, because this past summer he explained to me the philosophies of kendo and mottos.

It is still discouraging though - because everyone wearing bogu is not just higher ranking, but better in free practice than I am. What is the MOST discouraging is sparring my sensei. I can't even poke the guy if my life depended on it. After every practice I feel like crap for sparring against all the club members just because they are too challenging for me. But in the end, my sensei has pointed out that I will improve faster only sparring people better than me.

I hope this has helped someone

Cheers

Mike

[mingshi]

I can definently see all of the exit points above as being typical - but I don't understand why somebody would quit at Sandan ...
In Japan people who started as a kid can be promoted to around 3 Dan in university clubs. After that it's the company dojo that they'll be practising in, which is, as I have been told by many, really hard and tough keiko. Besides, there is always the excuses of work/family...

Also there are some who didn't quit, but just stop challenging for 4 dan. Shinsa fee is one factor, while some see it not necessary to become a 4 dan if they just practice Kendo for fun/leisure.

- As I have been told -

[StylophonePet]

I started kendo in May this year but stopped in august, the dojo near my place was closed for the summer and training sessions where at different locations at different times.
I always work nights so that makes it a little difficult to go to practise...and the fact that I had to figure out for myself why I even started doing kendo
I will be starting my training again in oktober, asked my sensei if I was allowed to come back then (out of respect)

So I'll be dead nervous to show my face again at practise....getting nervous already

[Old Warrior]

swrdply400mrela

When you study Kendo you learn some real life lessons. Rarely does anything come easily in life without considerable effort. Why would a beginner presume to be better than those who have been practicing longer. I am the only adult in a class of teenagers. There are kids 1/4 my age who are substantially better than me, because they have been practicing 4 times as long. If you can perservere in Kendo, especially since you think it runs contrary to your general nature - you will have acheived something special, that no one can ever take from you. I suggest that you look forward to facing the Sensei. It doesn't matter that you can't win, just give it everything you have and try and show that you have paying attention. Trust me, that's all he expects.

[swrdply400mrela]

swrdply400mrela

When you study Kendo you learn some real life lessons. Rarely does anything come easily in life without considerable effort. Why would a beginner presume to be better than those who have been practicing longer. I am the only adult in a class of teenagers. There are kids 1/4 my age who are substantially better than me, because they have been practicing 4 times as long. If you can perservere in Kendo, especially since you think it runs contrary to your general nature - you will have acheived something special, that no one can ever take from you. I suggest that you look forward to facing the Sensei. It doesn't matter that you can't win, just give it everything you have and try and show that you have paying attention. Trust me, that's all he expects.

Thanks Old Warrior for the words of encouragement. I now know truly feel that sparring with people better than me will help my skill level increase faster. The thing is, I never expect to win against people who have practiced longer than I have, but when I practice with my sensei, it's impossible to tell if I've improved at all. I guess that's a better way of putting it; all I need to know is that I am improving. I feel like I am improving when I have free practice with other members sometimes, but when I rotate to my sensei, it feels like I'm back to square one, and that's expected.

Fortunately, I'm pretty sure I've separated what I think and what I feel, so wanting to do better against him is always a strong motivation for me now.

[amatsuda]

I think the attrition rate for Kendo is higher than BUD/S Training....

This is a ball-park statistic of the attrition rate of our Kendo Dojo..In actuality, it might be even higher...

KENDO RULE OF 100

STATISTICALLY, OUT OF 100 PEOPLE WHO START KENDO
20 WILL NOT MAKE IT PAST THE FIRST MONTH
OF THE REMAINING 80, 50 WILL NEVER MAKE IT TO BOGU AND DROP OUT BETWEEN THE 2ND AND 6TH MONTHS
OF THE REMAINING 30, 20 WILL NOT MAKE IT PAST THE 1ST YEAR
OF THE REMAINING 10, ONLY 3 WILL MAKE IT TO 1 DAN
OF THE REMAINING 3, ONLY 1 WILL EVER MAKE IT TO 4 DAN.

Reasons for quitting:
1. People realize that it's not like in the movies or cartoons
2. Novelty wears off
3. Because Kendo does not meet their idealistic viewpoint or Philosophy of what Japanese Swordsmanship should be...(e.g. Is a shinai an accurate representation of the katana? Or dojo doesn't do kata every practice)
4. Kendo is hard work, hard on the body (even painful at times), and extremely difficult to learn
5. The aggressive and combative nature of Kendo Keiko is too exhausting or scares them.



amatsuda
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/sjkendo

[Old Warrior]

"I think the attrition rate for Kendo is higher than BUD/S Training"

So, what do we learn from this and is there anything we should do to change the statistics?

Actually, I don't think so. I would not be overjoyed to learn that Kendo had eclipsed baseball in popularity. In part, the joy of pursuing the activity is knowing that those who train have certain qualities that are not common throughout society. The pursuit of an activity that has great historical significance but little modern usefulness is a commentary about those of us who endeavor to keep the art alive. We find significance in our 21st century lives from learning something that generations of others found rewarding, regardless of the fact that it is an anachronism. Perhaps we are elitists or maybe traditionalists, but those who don't participate never experience the reward.

[Neil Gendzwill]

So, what do we learn from this and is there anything we should do to change the statistics?
The only things you can do involve making your club an inviting place to learn in - good atmosphere, accessible, cheap fees, good instruction. Beyond that, kendo is what it is and people will react to it as Arnold indicated. Trying to change it so that it isn't challenging, or that the practice isn't repetitive, or to make it flashier or whatever moves it away from being kendo. The vast majority of kendoka like kendo just the way it is and don't want to water it down or dumb it down just because it's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm all for promoting kendo but I want to make sure that it's kendo we promote. Which is why so many people oppose Olympic status for kendo - the fear that it will change into something else, like judo did.

[Kendo Spirit]

I think kendo unique in a sense that its culturally tied with traditions, spiritual in a sense and involves alot of discipline, certain concepts brought forward from ancient japan.

Seriously the day kendo becomes an olympic sport is the day Kendo dies.

e.g. I mean I might as well do some sport like cricket or baseball if this is the case, where ill just pick up a bat and swing it with sponsor badges sewn into my cloths.

Thinking about that is a nightmare, imagine something like coca cola printed on the back of you GI. then you get clueless morons thinking they can make new uniforms for athletes.