jumpy kendo

[Confound]

A group of high school girls came to practice last night, and I admit, their kendo was so annoying and frustrating that I hope they never set foot in the dojo again. They do jumpy kendo. You've seen it before, the person who jumps up and down, waving their shinai like it's a glowstick, and they're at a rave. They snap, crackle and pop like a rice crispy square, not watching their opponent, and attacking randomly.

Is it just me, or is this kind of kendo really, excruciatingly annoying?
c

[Tato]

Hello Confound.

All your options are a bit negative. I don't know how to describe my kendo using them.

By the way, I would like to be capable of lounching random attacks from my opponent point of view, while observing him/her, but I only manage to do easy to predict ones. :(

May be other people from my dojo (Paburo?) can describe better than I in which category I fit.

Rei

[Hongsermeier]

I do agree that it is really annouying. Mostly because it's so damn hard to get their timing down and kick their butts.
If they happen to be at the shodan or above level, a couple nice tsuki shots will slow them a little.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, just stay centred, then mune-tsuki. Ignore all the wild-ass kote shots from outside, they're just noise.

[alexpollijr]

I have to admit that I do Old Man's Kendo most of the time. The whole jump-everywhere-hit-anywhere stuff is not my cup of tea. In fact I hate each and every person who faces kendo like that. I have some down here.

I have been reprimanded every now and then because I'm young and I hold a low dan grade, so I should be 'more active'.

I find that employing munezuki against my everyday practice mates a little rude, so I avoid it as I can. As for the " wild-ass kote shots from outside" , I realized that most people my age and rank can't really keep a steady kamae when faced with seme, and those who can become so steady that the kamae gets static, which leaves then somehow vulnerable to harai or otoshi moves (ura harai kote anyone?).

This is a very interesting thread.

[Ares2907]

There's a big difference between energetic kendo and jumpy, tappy shite. You can usually tell which one someone does when you go for a nice straight, sharp men cut. An energetic player who is half-way decent will likely attempt some sort of oji-waza. An exponent of tappy shite will probably get hit on the head and wonder what the hell just happened or block/foil the attack without a comeback.
Just play straight, and as Neil said, ignore the noise. If they're handing you your arse in keiko, ignore that too. Analyse it later, sure. See what you can take from it, but out on the floor stay focused on what it is you're trying to achieve.
Have to agree with Alex, certainly one of the better threads that we've seen in some tme.

[AlexM]

Apparently so far I'm the only honest person who answered the poll: I don't do "old man" kendo. I'm not old enough yet! I answered #2 but that doesn't describe it either...

I have no idea what kind of kendo I do: It depends on my mood. I usually like to "set up" with my opponent for a few seconds and try to see if their kamae offers any openings (and if it doesn't that create some)... Sometimes I attack, other times I defend (and I mean just block by "defend"). I actually prefer using a rapid attacking style more than anything else (now all I need is to be rapid and have style). Got to try to emulate a former Korean sempai of mine.

Anyway, I don't usually jump around the shiai-jo unless it's for zanshin... I have "kangaroo zanshin".

Another thing... I can't stand passive kendo... not that "old man" kendo is passive by any means but some people seem to think both are one and the same.

I await your flames you wannabe hachi dans! ;)

[kendomushi]

I'm somewhere between unmoveable and old man kendo. True immobility is a bad thing for those of us who aren't lightning fast, as is bouncing around so much that it weakens your chudan. Like most things, the best way is usually a balance of techniques. Now if only I could get my unbalanced mind to cooperate I might actually get somewhere.

[alexpollijr]

Now that's a proud title, "hachidan wannabe". Thanks Alex mate.


Still about Neil and Ares reply, I don't know about you but for me it's hard to "ignore the noise" when the noise makes a tremendous effort to be noticed. Also, when the noise has two times your weight, a Goju Karate background, a hard-ass chinese unbreakable shinai and no brains, it becomes all the more difficult to ignore.

This guy down here is the personification of "noise". And I don't know what to do with him anymore. He jumps, swings his shinai like a club and hits people just everyway you could possibly imagine, and I know you guys/gal on this thread have really formidable imaginations.

- Alexandre

[KATSUJIN]

Well.... I used to be in the first category...slowly came into 3 category .....now I kind of do a combination of category 3 and 4....i think....

[KhawMengLee]

Hmnnn...I like to try to follow Takeda Shingen's motto:

Silent as a Forest
Swift as the wind
Fierce as Fire
And immovable as a Mountain.

[Confound]

I have to agree with Brazilian Alex on this one, it is hardto ignore the shite. Those girls had really low kamae, it was impossible to do any of my best waza, most of which involve rotating the opponent's shinai, but that's a different subject.

A mune-tsuki is all well and good, but you can't do that against a high school aged girl. It's not allowed. The best I could do was just wait passively, then try oji waza, but their timing was so messed up. How can you tell when those bouncy peolpe are going to do a real waza? When they actually do something, it feels like it's an accident more than an intentional waza. I'm watching their mune, but it's not helping. They don't move from their back, but rather from their feet or hands, or some other incorrect place.

What can one do to counter the distracting effects, and mountnig frustration? I honestly get so annoyed with the deliberate ugliness of their kendo that I end up just standing still, and knocking them back a few feet everytime they try a waza. It's very bad rei, and it makes me annoyed with myself, but there it's either that or get dwnright vicious, which is even worse.

c

[Ares2907]

Ignoring the noise is not easy, but becomes easier with practise. If you can't tsuki someone with a low kamae, try otoshi waza. If they're swinging their shinai around, look at there pattern (there will be one), then attack at the beginning of the movement into that pattern.
As for the bruiser/ogre kendo, there's always one or two that you'll have to deal with at least on a semi regular basis. They're inevitably the same, club - push - repeat until aite is a jellified mass on the floor.
I scored two in my pool at the Australian nationals this year. One hit my thumb so hard it took two thirds of the nail off and soaked the thumb of my kote in blood, then gave me whiplash by snapping his arms into my face after I cut his men. The next one smashed my elbow and left a welt that became a lovely shade of black in the area for several inches around. Beat em both, but it took it out of me. You have to keep your cool, you have to put aside the animal part of you that wants to rip their men gane off and headbutt them until you can see their brain, and play the sort of kendo that makes you stand apart from them.
Afterward, tell them. Rip em a new one. Make them understand that they're hurting people. I don't have the answers fighting these guys just yet, though I'm sure that it has a great deal to do with stability of the midsection. You're never going to win in a pushing contest so think about using their eagerness to use their strength against them. Maybe some proficiency in aiki would help. I'll investigate when I have time.

Confound, I'm going out on a limb - it looks like you have the tendency to lose your cool over things you can't possibly control. Like it or not you're going to come up against tappy shite time and again. You have to look past it.
Be grateful, they're showing you a facet of your kendo that needs work. Rather than emulate them, look at how your seniors play them. What do they do that is effective against this sort of kendo? What would your sensei do against them?

I used to get frustrated, angry, annoyed etc when I couldn't work out tappy shite. Now I'm happy when I come up against it. There's a pattern to it. Because people who do this can't do conventional kendo, they have a set stock of waza and once these are exhausted, they got nothin'.
They might expose a few weak points for you. Take it work on it then annihilate them.

Sorry bout the rambling nature of this post, hope it's of some use.

[iwatekenshi]

jellified mass eh? lol that's a good one :rolleyes: !

[Neil Gendzwill]

This is two different animals - dealing with high school kendo, and dealing with out of control muscley opponents. The former usually hit too light, actually, and will often not be able to score points in an adult taikai because of that. Therefore if you stay centred and clean you should be OK. In jigeiko, definitely concentrate on your own game, it's good training to stay centred against an opponent who's all over the place.

As for the latter: I must confess I have a bit of an advantage because I'm a fairly big guy myself. But if you're smaller and dealing with a large aggressive person, I think de-kote and nuki-do are your friends. Avoid men, that's likely to lead to taiatari and possible injury.

[William Honda]

Look at it as an opportunity to learn how to fight against them. You will come across all kinds of kendo that will not match up to your style. Some, like the jumpy kendo will mess you up for awhile but the more you practice against them, the more you will learn how to handle them. Same with clubbers. They both give me trouble - the jumpy ones moreso.

I get teased that I am a stutterer because I stutter step. M M M Men! I do it on purpose to throw off my opponents timing. I try not to be so predictable. So… do you adjust or not? You can't make me stop what I am doing but you can change the way you fight me.

William

[Raiza]

Originally posted by AlexM
Anyway, I don't usually jump around the shiai-jo unless it's for zanshin... I have "kangaroo zanshin".

That's pretty much the best description for the hopping backward after hiki-men with zanshin. The hop is done with the right foot just ahead of the left, as with most kendo footwork. It's a dojo staple where AlexM and I come from and I've seen it elsewhere too. People from my new dojo often reply, "What the heck is that?" until they actually visit McGill and find Sensei demonstrating it.

'Roo Zanshin!

[AlexM]

I'm not sure if this has been said yet but if you go against a jumpy kendoka then just let them extinguish themselves physically.

Fall back, wait, block (sacreligious!) watch them not get valid ippon for awhile: Once they get tired and they're breathing increases (despite being on anphetamines) go in for the kill. Move to the offensive all of sudden they'll seem open and vulnerable. This is assuming you're fighting for more than 2 minutes.

Is this a nasty trick? Yes, yes it is. I don't suggest you do it all that often (then again what do I know). But if your opponent is just jumping around and attacking despite a lack of any openings (you know the type... you breathe and they jump despite not having a chance to hit) then by all means let him or her tire themsleves out in order to be better able to turn them into a kendoka omelette afterwards. Any reasons why this is not a valid startegy by the way? Maybe I am a hachidan wannabe too...

My only other suggestion is to tie up your opponent in order to better smack them around (a practice that is forwned upon everywhere but the prestigious McGill internal tournament where having your feet tied together or an arm behind your back is considered a valid "handicap" for the better players). :D

[tyler]

Ares, I happened to witness an excellent example of what you talked about at a tournament here not long ago. It was a really truly huge guy from somewhere in the northern U.S. who had pretty good if slow kendo, but he was winning by juggernaughting his opponents out of bounds. So in this match he played a kid, a 16 or 17 year old highschool student from japan who was really good, but, of course, really small.
The kid did what you mentioned, he kept getting literally smashed into the floor, getting up again and doggedly trying for that good clean point, two of which he eventually got. The crowd went nuts too.

Confound - I'm trying to figure out exactly what you mean by jumpy kendo. I once watched a really old video of a tournament held for the emperor in japan around 1930's. A bunch of the players then seemed to be constantly jumping around, shifting weight from back to front foot rapidly. Is this what you mean? Or maybe like the guy who lost to Iwasa in the all-japan final not this year but the one before, Sato? I noticed he was a little jumpy earlier on, but it disappeared near the end. These are all great players though, and the girls you describe presumably are not, but i'm trying to imagine how they move. Can you specifiy?

thanks,

Tyler

[kendokamax]

Alex .....dont make me remember this tying leg tournament! haha

[Confound]

Tyler,

Good question. What I mean is not shifting of weight, it is literally bobbing up and down. The girls in question bounce back and forth, waving their shinai up and down, imagine the weight shifting movements being done by a person who took speed, then add a poor sense of balance, and very bad eye sight. It's not flattering, but it's an accurate description.

c

[JSchmidt]

Sounds like you are relying too much on the opponents shinai to judge distance and center. If you can only do what you want with 1 or 2 waza's, it's just as much your kendo that's lacking as theirs.
You don't have to use tsuki to show the lack of their center. If they attack, catch them on the mune. If not, center, seme, attack.
Best way to beat jumpy kendo, is with straight kendo...if you can't, your kendo isn't straight enough.

Jakob

[Confound]

I only ask one thing, Jakob, would you have made the same comment if someone else had posted my comments? No, I don't think so.

At any rate, it isn't so hard to deal with them in terms of waza, though it's a pain that I can't do any of my favourites. The real problem is learning how to keep myself from getting annoyed with them. I find myself standing still and waiting for them to attack, then doing ojiwaza. That's not much of a strategy for someone as poor as me.

c

[JSchmidt]

"The real problem is learning how to keep myself from getting annoyed with them. "

Well, that seems to be a problem you have with the world in general..maybe some anti-depressants and a good shrink would help.

[Steve]

i find the best way to handle "jumpy" kendoists, is to act like a "Kendo Wall" so to speak. Hold your kamae at their centre at all times. Once they impale themselves on your kensen a few times, they'll begin to doubt themselves. hello suki!

The other thing i'll try, although this is a bit rough is to be straight but aggressive against them with the intent of doing lots of taiatari. Somebody who is bouncing, doesn't have stable footwork and hence is off balance. taiatari will creat lots of suki for you against that.

I guess the most important thing is to really emphasize your own control of centre, and strength of kamae....which i believe was already stated above.

But, yes i agree, bouncers are annoying. Not because it makes them good, but because their bouncing is just delaying the inevitable men-ari they're asking for. ;)

[Steve]

the above is assuming you're in chudan of course!!!

Jodan, just use your longer reach as soon as they break their kamae.

The taiatari option works for both chudan and jodan.

[chidokan]

jumpy kendo = no hara....hit them while they are up in the air!
I think I tend to 'snipe' and do flank attacks more than direct attacks straight down the line... us oldies dont have the energy to waste ( and have more sense than to waste it anyway) jumping about! Why tire yourself out that way, as my teacher once said the battle may go on for days....you will be worn out after an hour! I try to pace myself so I am tired at the end of the total session, ie club night 2 hours, weekend I'll be dead on my feet at class finish. Doesnt always pan out though...

Tim Hamilton

[ben]

I agree with Ares about the kiriotoshi thing. If you're getting really annoyed BANG! Smack 'em down. Kill the sword, kill the technique, kill their spirit. Hopefully you'll even knock their shinai out of their hands for total devastation. (Nyahahahahaaa!)

Big Bruisers OTOH... hmmm. Yep, we all know a few. Ares you'll have to tell me next time we meet about your AKC batterings. Good to hear you smote them both! Class (usually) prevails.

Alexandre you mentioned someone with Goju-kai experience. I used to get this one guy who obviously had karate in his b/g and would always sink the knee into the side of my knee or thigh when he came into taiatari. I thought the f**cker was going to ruin me for life. Strangely though, I think it was actually unconscious on his part. I'd tell him and he'd take it in. Then he'd do it again. He just had a personality that sincerely required hurting his opponent. That was his measure of success, his personal "yuko datotsu". He gave up kendo soon after. I think someone "accidentally" whacked him somewhere painful and he spat the dummy. No loss.

Tim you say hit them while in the air. I really want to be able to perfect that taiatari "nudge" that puts my aite on his/her back! Yagisawa sensei from Nittaidai did it to me this year (how embarassment!) with what felt like the lightest of touches. It was ALL timing. One second I was standing, the next I was totally flat on the floor staring at the ceiling lights. It was like there was no transition. And it didn't (even) hurt!

b

[Confound]

Ben,

I second that comment about being flat on your back. How exactly does one do it consistently? I can do it sometimes to people who are smaller, but never anyone the same size, or bigger. Does anyone have a concise explanation? (I hate being pushed around in the shiaijo.)

c

[alexpollijr]

Originally posted by ben
.

Alexandre you mentioned someone with Goju-kai experience. I used to get this one guy who obviously had karate in his b/g and would always sink the knee into the side of my knee or thigh when he came into taiatari. I thought the f**cker was going to ruin me for life. Strangely though, I think it was actually unconscious on his part. I'd tell him and he'd take it in. Then he'd do it again. He just had a personality that sincerely required hurting his opponent. That was his measure of success, his personal "yuko datotsu". He gave up kendo soon after. I think someone "accidentally" whacked him somewhere painful and he spat the dummy. No loss.

b

Ben,

That' spretty much how you described. He has this 'I have to take you down' mentality. He apparently does not understand exactly how points are scored in kendo, so he justs clubs you relentlessly. This saturday he managed to hit my right ear side-on (still hurting) and my right hip after the Tare.I'm still trying to figure out some sort of peaceful solution to this issue. Suggestions are welcome.

- Alexandre

[JSchmidt]

Alex, I used to practice with a guy a little similar...he mainly did it to piss you off, so that you would get angry and play his 'style' of kendo.
The trick turned out to be that the moment he went too far, was to just sonkyo, step back, rei and walk away.
It's the only way to tell him that if he wants to practice with you, he better practice kendo and not seal-clubbing or karate.
Having said that, practicing with a guy like that *does* make you stronger, if you can cope with it mentally. I learned an awful lot about controlling myself from practicing with him. (ie, not getting drawn into his style of kendo).

Jakob