Opponents with kamae lower than kurukuru's IQ

[Confound]

What does one do when one's opponent's kamae is aimed directly at your hips, rather than your throat? As a person who reiles too heavily on shinai rotating waza, and otoshi waza, it's incredibly frustrating to be stuck with a jumpy kendouka whose shinai is perpetually aimed at my reproductive organs. It must be worse if you'fre male. I saw those girls skewer more than one of my sempais on Tuesday. Their teacher is a man, you'd think he'd tell them their kamae is low!

That said, what do you do with someone whose kamae is so low that it almost qualifies as gedan?

c

[JSchmidt]

plonk!

[Confound]

Hey! That was a serious question! When your opponent's kamae is high, you can hit kote or dou, but when it's low, it's harder to hit men, because you don't know if they'll move their shinai out of the way in time. It's also harder to hit kote, because it's almost directly behind the tsuba. As for tsuki, it's the same problem as men.

I hardly deserve to end up in a kill file for that, Jakob.

c

[iwatekenshi]

Well I would have to confront that with GO NO SEN. Difficult, but always works especially with high school students.

[JSchmidt]

The stupid title most certainly deserves it.

[Ares2907]

Otoshi waza is perfect against a low kamae.
If you want to suitably humiliate someone stupid enough to adopt gedan as a serious kamae, strike their shinai downward and then as your aite raises their arms skyward to fend off a men, go for do.
Tsuki is probably also acceptable against blatant stupidity such as this.

[alexpollijr]

Shinai otoshi. Hit it hard close to the tsuba. With luck , you might get his/her shinai rolling around the doho floor.

[slidercrank]

Hey Confound:

I've gotten some chuckles out of some of your posts before. Kurukuru has been behaving rather well lately (comparatively speaking), so it'd be great if the old verbal rivalry between you two was not stirred up again.

As for your question, my kendo is not good enough to give you great insights.

Cheers,

Slidercrank

[Kuri]

Originally posted by Confound
..... it's incredibly frustrating to be stuck with a jumpy kendouka whose shinai is perpetually aimed at my reproductive organs. .... c
Just because it doesn't conform to what you expect doesn't mean that you should get frustrated, or worse still, say that they are wrong. Everyone's kendo is different. There are many ways to cut (like it not). Why are they frustrating? Take the advise iwatekenshi, Ares2907 & alexpollijr have given, and deal with it in a rational manner.

[Confound]

Kuri,

We're not talking about cutting here, but about kamae. If your kessen is on the same level as your opponents hips, even from the very beginning of the shiai, then there's a problem/

c

[Neil Gendzwill]

What's the problem? It's a choice of kamae for them, it's non-standard but bfd, just deal with it. I'd just hit a straight men, they can't come up quick enough to defend it. Don't attack kote, that's the sucker move when someone is playing low. They'll just blast up through your kote with a very strong suriagi and hit men.

[Hongsermeier]

I must agree with Neil. On occasion I will drop my kamae to try and draw my opponent to try kote so I can crush his skull!!! I mean strike men.

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
I must agree with Neil. On occasion I will drop my kamae to try and draw my opponent to try kote so I can crush his skull!!! I mean strike men.

It's on an occasion such as this that I wish my katate tsuki was fast and reliable...

[Hongsermeier]

Fortunatlly for me tsuki is not allowed in the kyu division. I'll probably stop doing that after I reach Shodan.

[AlexM]

I'm not sure Confound is talking about gedan. She's talking about a variation on chudan (I think). It's not the same thing. The "towards the hips" thing maximizes the distance between you and the opponent making going for men and kote a pain. Doesn't gedan go lower? (enlighten me)

Someone in my dojo uses this style (although he doesn't jump around the shiai-jo at all) so I have a bit of experience in dealing with it (granted that doesn't amount to a hill of beans).

Going for men is a pain because you're further away than normal and he can just lift his shinai ever so slightly to block your path (and take a mune-tsuki). I'm not sure I agree with Neil that the opponent won't have the time to lift the shinai up to put it on the mune or tsuki. Remember he doesn't have to lift from gedan, he's just raising the point ever so slightly from a lower chudan. It's really a pain in the ass technique which our sensei tells us not to do with beginners because it doesn't help them learn anything except being afraid to go for men with sutemi (how would you have liked a shinai in the throat every time you did men-uchi when you were starting out?)

I have more luck with kote myself... I just try to slide the shinai against the opponents slowly (putting him or her to sleep), then jump on the kote and pray he or she was snorring. Question of speed I suppose (also a question of the kote being closer to me than the men).

[Neil Gendzwill]

The position I was referring to is what you're thinking of Alex. Nobody fights from a true gedan, that's just suicidal. But they'll often adopt a lowered chudan. In that case, men is open (or more open than chudan).

[William Honda]

Agree with Neil, BFD are we now going to complain about what other kenshi are doing or not doing?

If it is a sucky (sorry Old Warrior) kamae, kick the cr-- out of your opponent. Or…. can you? Maybe it is not so sucky, eh?

[Hongsermeier]

Mr. Honda hits one out of the park!!! Very true. Like I said earlier, maybe it's to draw you into a move that leaves you open.

To quote a movie "Adapt and overcome"

[chidokan]

gedan is good against people who do not know ma ai, you can get GREAT kote's!!:D and it does draw them in...
Why not just rush them if they use a 'bad' chudan, impale yourself on their shinai and get a great men cut? yours counts, theirs doesnt... and it doesnt hurt that much either. I'll bet they'll apologise as well for hitting you where it hurts...:eek:

Tim Hamilton

[AlexM]

Actually Tim I have yet to see shinpan give a men-uchi when you did not manage to take the center from the opponent (granted this is from very little experience).

I beg to differ, getting hit in the balls does hurt! (and it really makes my kiai sound weak too).

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by AlexM
Actually Tim I have yet to see shinpan give a men-uchi when you did not manage to take the center from the opponent (granted this is from very little experience).
If your opponent's kensen doesn't get to your body before you connect, it's your point. Even if it does get to your body but it's not very strong and your men is very clear, it can still be your point. A good example of this is kote-nuki-men, which often results in the opponents shinai contacting you as you come in, but this is ignored by the judges as the resulting men is usually very strong and clear.

[Confound]

How can it be one person's 'style of choice' when 8 girls, all from the same club, have the same problem? They don't use tsuki, they just hop around like rabbits on amphetamines, striking randomly from their extraordinarily lowered chudan. I don't think they know that it's not proper, because they never bring it up to a normal level. Even during sonkyo, it's that low.

I can agree that lowering chudan during keiko can have advantages, luring in the opponent by revealing kote, etc etc, but this is not that kind of case.

c

[Hongsermeier]

Could be someones habit that others have picked up on. I catch myself doing that sometimes.

[alexpollijr]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
Mr. Honda hits one out of the park!!! Very true. Like I said earlier, maybe it's to draw you into a move that leaves you open.




Not long ago someone posted a thread about 'tricks' in kendo. This 'luring' is the perfect example of a "trick". It might work one or two times, and then what?

Tricky kendo is bound to win one point here, another one there, but in the long run, will it make you a good player? I don't think so. Will it earn you any significant championship titles? I don't think so. Even 'sports kendo' adepts (me included) must have a reasonable amount of straight techniques stored to get clear points.

Of course, we have to adapt to whatever crap in thrown at us. I have to do it every practice since it's chock full of these tricky people down here (funny enough, they're tricky clubbers).

But it should not have to be like this. I believe I understand Confound's train of thought. I've had that same thought not long ago when I started to realize that not everyone is out there to do correct kendo. Some people just don't get it, so they'll adopt any stance and strike they find ok and just throw it at you, and see what happens.

- Alexandre

[kendomushi]

Momentarily lowering your chudan is a valid means of trying to lure the opponent into making a mistake. However, having a constantly low chudan is not a valid technique and is a habit that is likely to make the judges look harshly on whatever such a person tries to do in a shiai (remember award of a point is at least as much subjective as it is technical in kendo). It creates a bad choshi.
The only way I know to deal with these people is to feint, move as if to attack to and pull up short. This almost always causes them to pull up and halt opening their kote at least and usually men as well. Then its just a matter of taking which ever is most open.

[William Honda]

AlexP,

No problem, figured someone would say that. I do what I do and I am comfortable with it. I do not need validation.

Wahahahahaahahahah!

[Karaken]

Isn't that what Harai Men is for?

Center - no trick

[Kuri]

Confound
You should read the article "The Technical and Psycological Methodology of Kendo" (Part 2) in the latest issue of KW (of course that's assuming that you subscribe). There's a lot in there about this idea of what is "correct" and how to handle all situations. I will be very interested on hearing your thoughts on this article.

[Confound]

What isn't being grasped here is that I'm not talking about a technique, or a momentary lowering, the shinai is there from start to finish, they think that's chudan... Anyway, I will try more otoshi waza.

c

[misterkurukuru]

uhHH ME SO DUMB!aaahhhhhhh!!! ever try Kote men? if you are afraid of tsuki and kote, you should use kote men. Speed kendo is awesome till you graduate from high school. Then you have to play with the big boys/girls/ whatever the freak you are. I give people until 2 dan to fight in the manner you are speaking of. lower kame=open kote in the minds of people who know nothing about tsuki and kote men. In the USA there are a lot of kids that do this blocking seme thing. its odd, and i alwasy want to tsuki them. kids want to win, and a lower kame= more points for the Kyus. By the way its all about EQ not IQ!

[alexpollijr]

Originally posted by William Honda
AlexP,

No problem, figured someone would say that. I do what I do and I am comfortable with it. I do not need validation.

Wahahahahaahahahah!

Neither do I, so nevermind.

By the way, kote-men and tsuki are very nice ideas also. But I think Confound could not use tsuki on the girls she was talking about.

- Alexandre

[Confound]

I could use tsuki on them, but it would be frowned upon, and there would be a long, stern lecture afterwards. It's not allowed, to my knowledge. Besides, i'm very poor at it.

c

[Hongsermeier]

If your not good at it don't use it. I do speak from experience from being on the receiving end of missed tsuki's. It hurts. There's a certain nito player who, when he misses, will just about take your neck off.

[alexpollijr]

A nito player using tsuki? That's somehow uncommon. He uses the daito or the shoto to execute it? Was it jigeiko or shiai / shiai geiko ?

- Alexandre

[AlexM]

Originally posted by alexpollijr
A nito player using tsuki? That's somehow uncommon. He uses the daito or the shoto to execute it? Was it jigeiko or shiai / shiai geiko ?

- Alexandre

Isn't tsuki one of the few valid points with the shoto? I've seen Matthew Raymond attempt it a couple of times. Don't quote me on this but I think I saw him try it in shiai against Taro Ariga.

[alexpollijr]

I believe moocow can answer that.
I've attempted it a few times with the shoto but as a diversion. I didn't believe that i could score a point with that.

- Alexandre

[Hongsermeier]

I also don't know if it's valid. He tries it with the daito. Uses shoto to move your center then brings daito down to tsuki. However he's a little short so he's coming up to hit tsuki. Very painful when he misses.

[chidokan]

sorry confound, I thought you meant just one person! If everyone does it either the class isn't listening to the teacher or they think they know better...or God forbid the teacher hasnt noticed yet or doesnt care! There is definitely something strange going on in the club!
Theres no way that will work long term, everyone around will get to know and work out a counterattack for an easy pass through a compo round!!
In my younger fencing days I would dream of coming across someone as useless as that in a compo!!:D ( not that I ever did...)

Tim Hamilton

[Inouye02]

as far as the recent seminar in Japan, the shoto is useless in scoring now , you can block with it , BUT if do hit something its gonna have to make the judges shit for them to score it , and if they do they will only give you the point once. thats it ..

hey hongsermier, i'm short but dont remember doing keiko with you ....hahaha

[M.K. Kawai]

Title of thread... Kotonk!

Without knowing more about these people and actually seeing how they do their Kendo it would be difficult to comment on their technique.

It sounds like that they do it on purpose because they believe that there is a tactical advantage in using it. But, that is just a guess on my part.

BTW, Kurukuru's IQ is somewhere between 170 and 180. Which means that their whole body and kamae is lower than their IQ! Hahahaha:D

MKK

[Hongsermeier]

Inouye02....it's a guy from up north. Actually the dojo where he practices is known for their tsuki's. If they miss, the shinai goes almost all the way to the tsuba past your head. If they hit it hurts like hell.

[Paburo]

there is something that i don't understand....

men and tsuki?

when opponents lower their kamae, isn't that a sign that they precisely want you to attack MEN or TSUKI?
so why is the general advice in here to do just that?

it's like the opponent setting you a trap, and you falling for it, knowingly...(!?!?)
i guess if you are very fast, you can hit the opponent even if he (opens)wants you to do certain technique.... but what if you are equally faster? or slower??

i used to fight a guy who would go into a sort-of-gedan.
and when you went for men or tsuki always made a fast suriage-kote. very fast. even if you didn't attack and stay in chudan, he would do a fast suriagegote and catch you.

the only way i could beat this guy in tournament was going for degote. first seme, and then as he raised his shinai for suriage, kote him first.

so my question is, aren't you supposed to 'surprise' the opponent? or is it ok for him/her to lure you and then follow him/her??

[Hongsermeier]

Paburo...you are correct. I think what Confound is talking about is that it is not being used to draw you in, but a normal position.

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Inouye02
as far as the recent seminar in Japan, the shoto is useless in scoring now , you can block with it , BUT if do hit something its gonna have to make the judges shit for them to score it , and if they do they will only give you the point once. thats it ..

hey hongsermier, i'm short but dont remember doing keiko with you ....hahaha

Can you elaborate a bit Inouye?

I'd really like to know when a strike with the shoto can or can't be counted as ippon. Did the seminar people actually say that a puddle of urine must form under two of the three shinpan in order for the ippon to be scored (that was a bit crude even for me).

Is there any other standard besides the hit being REALLY REALLY clean?

[M.K. Kawai]

AlexM,

There's a Shimpan Seminar this weekend here in So. Cal. so we'll have to get back to you on that.

MKK

[moocow65]

shikai sensei, who is going to judge at the world's told one of his other fellow sensei, that shoto points don't count, period. and that sensei told me, as well as some other stupid rules that award me a hansoku lsuch as waving my daito twice while i'm pressing down on my opponents shinai with my shoto. i'm not sure if there are any extreme exceptions to this shoto point thingy, but i guess instead of a .1 percent chance of getting a point, it's like .00001 percent now. and for this gedan issue. i have someone in my dojo who swings his shinai from gedan to jodan constantly and hops around. all i do is keep a strong straight kamae (this is when i'm doing seigan folks) and when he comes in to hit, i just stick him. gedan is more of a defensive kamae, so it's better to wait for them to make a mistake than to go try hitting them. or you can just do a tsuki that comes from the side. the opposite side to where your opponents kensaki is point.

[alexpollijr]

Hey Moocow

What did you meant by' waving the daito twice '? You mean that small feint every nito player does from time to time?

- Alexandre

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
Inouye02....it's a guy from up north. Actually the dojo where he practices is known for their tsuki's. If they miss, the shinai goes almost all the way to the tsuba past your head. If they hit it hurts like hell.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.. Just read this thread. Don't tell me it's Mr. Mozzletoff? LOL I think he ripped a hole into one of my old gis.

Tim

[Hongsermeier]

That's the one. :cross_eye