Fudoshin Vs Mushin

[bobdonny]

Fudoshin Vs Mushin is something i am interested to learn more opinions on, if any.

What do you think they really mean, how do you get to that state personally, and when would one be of more benefit than the other.

I have a few thoughts myself but would rather not say now.

[don don]

You mean the make of shinai from nine circles? I'd just get the cheapest.

[kurisu]

This is a nice read:
http://www.cjp.fi/liikan/liikan-jitsu/classic-extracts/unfetterred-mind/takuan1.html

[bobdonny]

No not shinai's, tho' on shinai's i just recieved a nice Bio shinai from kendoshop. It looks nice and antique and has a smoked salmon smell ;)

No i meant in relation to the philosophical (hence posted inthe concept forum) aspect. Sorry for being ambigious.

I'm trying to read into/think about the the mental and spiritual state required to fight. I got interested from reading 5 rings, and by complete coincidence (i didnt realise at the time of purchase, my tenugai has Mushin on it).

I was also stimulated by the thread on Sutemi.

I wont go into the semantics of it all nor at this stage or really go into the meaning of each, hopefully i may approach this a bit better at the end of this thread.

Sutemi to me means committment (I'm in agreement with rojindo). I think you need Sutemi in both mushin and fudoshin.

I understand Mushin loosely means no mind (empty mind etc).
I understand Fudoshin loosely means focused mind (unnerved mind).

I can see the need for Mushin, either volountarily or involountarily, for reaction, speed and determination,

I can also see the need for Fudoshin, volountarily, for control, focus etc.

Again, I may not understand these concepts correctly, and realise i may not untill i proceed, but i am just interested in what they mean to you - and more importantly, the difference between them.

Can you enter into Mushin or fudoshin at a whim, or is this something that comes uncontrolled with adrenelin?

Personally, i can try to focus so hard on something, (i.e. looking for a movement) that i realise everything else is blocked out...... However if i forceable try to block everything out i invariably fail to reach a passive state. Make sense.

[beinsteiner]

Hmmm. Mushin to me means being able to "see" instead of "look."

Looking means looking for something, a desire to see something.

Seeing means seeing, being in the moment and recognizing the significance of what one is seeing.

I was finally able to, a little bit, "see" during ji geiko the other night.

Fudoshin: I can tell you what I think it means, but that doesn't mean I really know.

Here's an interesting read: http://www.smaa-hq.com/articles/denison_fudoshin.php

And of course Takuan is a good source.

[bobdonny]

Wow, really good essay! Cheers dude.

They do really seem to contrast each other, yet go hand in hand. hmmmm

[pgsmith]

Misconceptions ...

Warning, non-kendo outlook alert! :)
In my experience bobdonny, you are suffering from a bit of a misconception. Fudoshin and mushin are not things you do, they are things that you are. Fudoshin is the ability to have nothing startle or surprise you. An instant's startlement will allow an opening for your opponent to kill you, so we train to prevent this from happening. Mushin is the ability to act and react without thinking. The following statement is a good example ...

Personally, i can try to focus so hard on something, (i.e. looking for a movement) that i realise everything else is blocked out...... However if i forceable try to block everything out i invariably fail to reach a passive state. Make sense.
If you are focussed, then you are not in a state of mushin since you are concentrating on something. This takes your attention and keeps you from reacting as quickly as necessary, or being cognizant of other things around you.

Long hard practice is necessary for either one. It is impossible to force either state through anything else but practice.

Be aware that this is my understanding based upon my own experiences. Others opinions may differ. :)

[bobdonny]

Thanks Paul, I think i am definately misconcieving the concepts but i do understand they are states of mind, specifically i was wondering if it could be self induced i.e. when going into battle etc.
(http://smaa-hq.com/articles/fabian_fudoshin.php has a nice intro on getting "physced up" for want of a better word. )

I completely agree with you that i was not in a state of mushin when i was focusing, and there within lies my problem.
I am new to bogu, but have a lot of shotokan sparring. I have good experience of being focused and in the zone, but have not competed for bout 10 years.

Last week i was in bogu and my opponent (my own level) was using his own timing/instinct to strike kote. When this happened i was to try a small men to his kote.

As i was trying to anticipate his moves i found myself slightly slow on the response.. the harder and harder i tried to anticipate his move the more i messed up, began before him etc... As the only too practicing in front of sensei, i was a bit embarassed, so i closed my eyes, took a deep breath, and let go of all my tension...

...i had forgotten this from karate, but it was a meditative state...

...and immediatly i felt more relaxed and i was no longer waiting or anticipating or anything, hard to explain, but i just "was". Couldnt hear anything it just felt like the two of us and all the background colours seemed to meld.
When his weight shifted, i immediatly moved, even before he moved the shinai, I didnt score many clean kote's, perhaps 1 out of 5, as you say that will come with practice, but it felt odd. When i realised that i was chilled for want of a better word i immediatly lost the zone and my timing went a bit wobbly again.
No matter how hard i tried i couldnt get back to there, as it felt more distant the harder i tried.

Hope this doesn't sound hippish - tis about 10 years since i studied karate. Meditation was something i was very much into, and i tried to meditate daily for about 15 mins. Also meditation was what got me thru me exams and college ;)

Seems there is more to it than i thought back in karate days and im really interested in these seemingly contrasting states.
Your thought were much appreciated paul, espcially the practice part ;)

[pgsmith]

I read Fabian sensei's article when it came out. The Furyu.com version is a bit more complete than the SMAA version you linked to ... http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue9/fudoshin.html

Beware the information trap though. It is possible to think too much at practice, and miss some of the benefits. I have known a number of people that were concentrating so hard on intangibles like zanshin and mushin, that they weren't concentrating enough on their lousy technique, which is what really needed to be worked on at their level. :)

[Kaisei]

Fudoshin and mushin are not things you do, they are things that you are. Fudoshin is the ability to have nothing startle or surprise you. An instant's startlement will allow an opening for your opponent to kill you, so we train to prevent this from happening. Mushin is the ability to act and react without thinking. The following statement is a good example ...
************************************************** *****
i remember a quote..."let your mind be immovable as a mountain and your actions as natural as to breathe"

let nothing distract you and let your action be second nature to you. You can only achieve this through "correct and rigid practice" (quoting AJKF concept of kendo) . I guess every kendoka aspires this, to make your actions / reactions in kendo as natural as breathing.
But more over if you let the philosophy, virtues, lessons behind kendo permeate every aspect of your life, you'll find the beauty of kendo applies beyond the confines of the dojo.
Im not as good a kendoka as the next guy but the the concepts of kendo that i so far learned i discovered applies in almost every endeavour / experience we do in our everyday lives ...yes even to a chore as simple as washing the dishes or as hard as going thru life's trials.

Always fly high like an eagle for perfection but be as gentle to yourself and others as spring breeze that lifts it up.

Just putting in my 2 cents worth...

[pgsmith]

yes even to a chore as simple as washing the dishes or as hard as going thru life's trials.
Funny you should mention washing dishes. About a month ago, I was drying dishes and talking to my youngest son and several of his friends that were hanging around in the kitchen. One went behind me to get a glass out of the cabinet, and hit my arm with the cabinet door causing me to drop the large bowl I was drying. I reached out and caught it before it had dropped more than a foot, and continued drying it without interrupting what I was saying. Then I noticed that they were all sort of staring at me. One of his friends said "wow, you're scarey!" It gave me a chuckle and then I forgot about it until you mentioned concepts and washing dishes. I suppose if I was good enough, my zanshin would have allowed me to realize he was going to bump me with the cabinet before hand, but I'll settle for being able to react without surprise. :)

[Kaisei]

Since kendo was derived from military roots...I guess the repetitivenesss of correct and rigid practice give your motor skills and muscles that mnemonic programming thus reacting / acting / moving in kendo as second nature (moving without thinking) and it your conditions your cognitive faculties to have that steadfast focus thus the immovable mind effect. Just line how navy seals and other military personnel are trained. :D nice one smith :D

[bobdonny]

Hmmm, I am begining to see...... not what i hoped to see, but what is actually there - or rather not there.

Patience. ;)

this sums it up nicely in my little quest ... read the last line http://www.geocities.com/kendosuburi/whatk.htm nice diary also.

[ahmed61086]

I think both take lots of practice to achieve, but at a certain point, I believe one can put himself into these mindstates at will, during certain stages of there Kendo career.

[bobdonny]

Well i was thinking last night. 2 things struck me. Can Mushin be interpreted as empty mind - as in not allowing your oponent to read you mind? Is this different.

The other thing was surelyto be in mushin and fudoshin (zanshin etc even) during kendo, it is only beneficial if you are well rehersed in technique... I get that.
But what about outside of kendo? Like the ambassador story. Is it the chicken or the egg..... Do you appreciate these states of mind thru martial art practice and then use them in your life...... Or is this something that is possible outside of the dojo with little to no training ?

Some people say that understanding the mind comes well into your training.
Other people say that to proceed in kendo you need to know your mind


If the mind is right, the sword is right.
If the mind is wrong, the sword is wrong.
If you wish to follow the Way of the sword,
You must first study the Way
of the Mind

[Fudo-Shin]

I think it was in Munenori's Book "The Life Giving Sword" where I read this and I can't remember exactly how it goes....so If someone can correct me pls do?

Along the lines of....
If you think about winning, you will Lose.
If you think about losing, you will be cut down.
If you think about technique, you will be perplexed.

It goes on and on....Basically if think.period. Your mind will react too slowly and probably with the wrong action. Just let your mind exist.

I believe, you are strongest when you have a reason to win...or a right to win. You tend not to think about it...and your mind is not moved from cutting the enemy down even for a split second (or scoring ippon with yuko-datotsu).

Can someone pls find the passage I am talking about in "Life Giving Sword" translated by William Scott Wilson. When I read this it was like a revelation in the how the mind should be.

[beinsteiner]

From an article by Kenji Tomiki


It has been handed down to this generation that the secret principle of martial arts techniques in kenjutsu (cf, The Book of the Five Rings) or in jujutsu (cf, The Heavenly Scroll of Kito Ryu Jujutsu) is to study thoroughly the principles of the arts so that we will ultimately arrive at "no posture" (mugamae)--that is, we will develop true natural posture (shizen hontai). In the same way that thoroughly mastering the principles of the arts leads the body to mugamae, such mastery leads the soul to mushin, which is often termed "no heart," or "the quietude of spirit". Although there are various terms for mushin, such as the unmoving heart, the non-living heart, the soft and pliable heart, and the every-day heart, they all mean exactly the same thing. And arriving at this state of mushin is congruent with the goals of the religious and moral systems that have existed in all eras and in all places.

http://www.judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm

According to these thoughts, mushin & fudoshin seem to be equivalent.