aggressive?

[Willow]

I know this has been discussed on other threads, but I thought it might be interesting to discuss in the women's forum.
Have you ever been called aggressive in your kendo and how did you feel about it? I have and have to say I don't like it. It's probably because in everyday life, aggression is a particularly negative emotion which is also considered very 'unfeminine'.
Just because I don't back down and because I try, in whatever way (not usually very effective, but anyway...) to attack, should this be called aggression?
When guys do it, it's called good attacking kendo, when girls do the same thing, they are called aggressive.
Any thoughts?

[MikeW]

Well I'n not a woman but to me agggressive kendo is good kendo as long as that aggression doesn't make you sloppy or is based on poor technique. I'm don't think that it is meant to be a negative term in kendo in regards to women or anyone else.

[Purr]

I have a problem with this sometimes. It seems quite difficult for some people to deal with girls with a little more than "playfull spirit".
I sometimes feel I'm tolerated for the fun of it, as something nice to look at. "Oh there's that little girl who wants to play with the big boys, how funny". And when I do beat them (Yes, thank god, it does happen), they act like it was a lucky shot!!!
It's really demotivating. How am I going to improve meself if they don't take me seriously?

[WolfofMibu]

i am not a girl but i do know that in kendo you are supposed to have an agressive spirit and attack with conviction. i have heard it being called agressive before but that is the way it is supposed to be....its just the kendo way

[Anime12478]

I have often been told that I'm not agressive enough with my Kendo. I would like to change that, but I also don't want to go in there and just hit stuff. I'll find that fine line somewhere though.

[nysamurai]

I think it's all in how you look at it. Generally, being "aggresive" is considered a negative attribute, socially. However, "aggresive" kendo may also be define as "vigorous", "energetic", "bold" or dynamic". It seems to me that these are words that most people would consider to be very positive attributes.

It's all in the eye of the beholder. I am not a female and so cannot relate directly to your experience. However, the girls I know who practice kendo are very good at what they do. Many are techincally a damn sight better than I'll ever be, and I have found them to be VERY willing to help others, whereas the male of the species can sometimes be a bit too self-involved, especially early on. So my advice to you is to let the label slide off your shinai, stay focused, and you GO girl!!!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Why on earth would you think being called "aggressive" is anything other than a compliment? I generally look at kendo as an aggressive sport. That's why we have "fighting spirit" awards at tournaments. You don't earn those by hanging back looking for degote.

[tantadi]

You can call it 'determination' or 'strong will' if it makes you feel better. Not backing down and always trying is positive.

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

I know this has been discussed on other threads, but I thought it might be interesting to discuss in the women's forum.
Have you ever been called aggressive in your kendo and how did you feel about it? I have and have to say I don't like it. It's probably because in everyday life, aggression is a particularly negative emotion which is also considered very 'unfeminine'.
Just because I don't back down and because I try, in whatever way (not usually very effective, but anyway...) to attack, should this be called aggression?
When guys do it, it's called good attacking kendo, when girls do the same thing, they are called aggressive.
Any thoughts?

i agree with Neil. kendo is, in the basic physical sense, learning how to fight an opponent with a weapon. how could an activity like that be anything but aggressive? i find it difficult to understand why you are so concerned with being labled aggressive in your kendo, the fact that you are a female and do kendo makes me think that you wouldn't care much about traditional gender roles and stereotypes (read:"feminine"). i am a beginner, but IMHO you have to be aggressive in kendo, but in a controlled manner. i guess the real issue here is your perception of the term 'aggressive,' not the fact that you are labled so in your kendo. there are plenty of ladies who are aggressive while practicing kendo but are very "feminine" outside the dojo.

[JByrd]

When guys do it, it's called good attacking kendo, when girls do the same thing, they are called aggressive.
Any thoughts?

I haven't heard such a double standard applied in Kendo with respect to men versus women. I have consistently heard that aggressiveness in keiko is important for all Kendoists.

In Kendo, I take it that aggression means that one actively engages the opponent, and seeks every opportunity to attack him with good Kendo technique. I consider the mindset of constantly threatening one's opponent with imminent attack to be synonymous with the term seme, which is is indispensable in Kendo.

Aggressiveness outside of keiko is a different matter. Being deliberately confrontational on a personal level is usually a bad thing in the cooperative social environment of the dojo.

[Paburo]

one of my dojo mates is very aggressive. she doesn't have a lot of waza repertoire or fancy moves or lightning speed, but oh boy, she's got terrible kiai and will combo you no mercy if you lower your guard. i don't see this as a negative thing. in fact, i think this is the right attitude for girls, not only when you go against each other, but especially when you go against us 'oh so brutish and rude' males. gotta love when a girlie fights back full spirit no mercy <3 :D

btw... she's won both the state individual tournament and the national by teams... so she i guess she must be doing something right... :bandit:

[kanyil]

When guys do it, it's called good attacking kendo, when girls do the same thing, they are called aggressive.

I think you are reading too much into this. Aggressive kendo is good. Even "old man" kendo is aggressive in its own way.

[Soja_Rain]

People consider me aggressive.

I think its a common misconception that when a woman acts "assertive" that she is displaying signs of "agression".

I am a strong woman. I admit, perhaps a little "too big for my breeches" but non-the-less, I am who I am. =)

[Willow]

Great responses - thanks!
Tantadi, I do think of the way I do kendo as 'determined' ; i just have a bit of a problem when other people call it 'aggressive'.
Judging by the responses, though, I think part of the problem lies with the way I think of the term myself. I'm getting the message that controlled aggression is good for kendo and I just have to 'acclimatize' myself to experiencing these rather unfamiliar emotions.
Having said that, some guys do have a problem with girls beating them at a physical activity. Sometimes their hurt male pride gets chanelled into comments that cut - usually ones aimed at your femininity.
I really like being feminine and I really like kendo - I sincerely hope the two are not mutually exclusive!

[Alison2805]

this is a very good topic willow, I have a huge problem with being aggrssive enough with my kendo. I can be enthusiastic, full-on, energetic or whatever, but Im just not grrrrr.

When someone called you "agressive", how did they say it? I personally would like to be called agressive, but not if someone was saying it in a way to make me feel like I was being butch, thugish or just aggro. Its easy to make something like that an insult.
Luckily Im not good enough to step all over guys egos yet ;]

Hey purr, it sounds like you havehad some problems with guys where you train, how many females do kendo where you are?

[KhawMengLee]

I find there's a big difference between a skilled kendoka's aggression and just plain aggressiveness. I see the latter with a lot of my female dojomates...its good spirit but not good kendo. They tend to hit a lot but without actually thinking and that only leads to them getting creamed in keiko. eg. they'll be screaming their head off going for men, men, men, hiki men, etc etc while you go block, block, nuki men...the end.

My Japanese Sempai though is another story...she's aggressive but doesn't hit blindly...her kind of aggro attacks are a sharp downswing onto your shinai, after she passes you, causing you to drop your shinai if you are not ready...etc...tsuki or a well placed shove in tsubazeriai to send you off balance...etc

[Alison2805]

we had a beginner start with me, he was a big tall guy, and would say stuff all the time about how he was going to bash up the experienced guys, try to break their arms with his shinai, hit them so hard over the head during practise that theyd pass out etc etc he was a good example of thuggish, stupid aggression. He didnt last long. He dropped out before any of the experience guys could have a go at him...funnily enough.

[KhawMengLee]

we had a beginner start with me, he was a big tall guy, and would say stuff all the time about how he was going to bash up the experienced guys, try to break their arms with his shinai, hit them so hard over the head during practise that theyd pass out etc etc he was a good example of thuggish, stupid aggression. He didnt last long. He dropped out before any of the experience guys could have a go at him...funnily enough.

I think Josh or Chris Sensei would have sorted him out...if not I wish I was still at Murdoch...because yes, you can't really hit them back but you sure as hell can taiatari them...hahaha

We had some McDojo guy do that before...he came into a practice session and started to say how he was 'better than all the guys practicing' (They were like 1 kyu below). He had no tenuichi, missed targets and was trying to say he was a Sensei. he was trying to teach our Juniors and all us Seniors wanted to give it to him. He came to our Senior practice, got into one jigeiko session with our head Sensei and ended flat on his arse fromva solid taiatari...Sensei then proceeded to run him through the gauntlet( you know, you try to hit a big men and he'llstep back and hit down your shinai so you go off balance off to the side). After that the guy never came back...in fact, after that we didn't manage to practice with him either...he just legged it.

[Airin]

I'm new in this forum and also a beginner at kendo, so I don't know if my opinion is valuable. :wink:
Anyway... I think aggression is a part of human being and so it's better to let it go during a kendo training than in everyday life.
When I first began kendo ten months ago, several women I know were amazed I decided to begin a such aggressive sport, because they thought it didn't fit for a woman. Yet, in the every day life these same women acted more aggressively than me.
So at last what is better? Let go your aggression without hypocrisys in a place were you know you aren't going to hurt anyone (because the other ones have bogu to protect them) or keep it until you use it during a discussion that was meant to be civilized, chatting about other people's things and so on?
I don't think being aggressive during kendo hours makes a woman less feminine. On contrary, it makes her more femminine, since she probably will be more relax in everyday life.

[KhawMengLee]

I'm new in this forum and also a beginner at kendo, so I don't know if my opinion is valuable. :wink:
Anyway... I think aggression is a part of human being and so it's better to let it go during a kendo training than in everyday life.
When I first began kendo ten months ago, several women I know were
amazed I decided to begin a such aggressive sport, because they thought it didn't fit for a woman. Yet, in the every day life these same women acted more aggressively than me.
So at last what is better? Let go your aggression without hypocrisys in a place were you know you aren't going to hurt anyone (because the other ones have bogu to protect them) or keep it until you use it during a discussion that was meant to be civilized, chatting about other people's things and so on?
I don't think being aggressive during kendo hours makes a woman less feminine. On contrary, it makes her more femminine, since she probably will be more relax in everyday life.

Hahaha...I said that once, much to my Sempais' disapproval, "Kendo is great. It lets you get rid of stress. Where else can you belt someone with a stick and not go to jail for it?"

Welcome to the forums!

[Purr]

Hi Alison2805,

There are only a few girls above shodan level, but they are working really hard :).

Thanks to all the guys for their comments. Next time I get nasty remarks I will be very "determined" in ignoring them.

[Airin]

Welcome to the forums!
Thank you :smiley:

[Willow]

I feel like I do my best kendo when I go into a sort of 'zone'. It feels a little weird; the closest feeling I have to it is when I sprint at the end of a 4-5k run. It's like I have total focus,feel light on my feet and don't feel any pain. I always thought it was due to an adrenaline burst when I ran and I really love my 'kick' to finish off a race.
It feels like a switch gets turned on and it is a similar feeling when I spar. I have to 'switch off' again at the end of the sparring. Does anybody else ever feel like this?

[Willow]

I'm new in this forum and also a beginner at kendo, so I don't know if my opinion is valuable. :wink:
Anyway... I think aggression is a part of human being and so it's better to let it go during a kendo training than in everyday life....
...I don't think being aggressive during kendo hours makes a woman less feminine. On contrary, it makes her more femminine, since she probably will be more relax in everyday life.
What a great first post, Airin. That really clarified a lot for me. I'm generally indifferent to everyday petty 'issues' that people seem to obsess over - maybe I have kendo to thank for that

[Airin]

In the evening, after a training session I can hardly sleep also if I was tired when I've begun and sometimes I really get amazed :surprise: when I understand how much I've run (usually I'm very idle and bad at running). Usually I'm also atypically happy for no reasons.
Last month, I hurt lightly my feet during a training, losing skin. I felt a little annoyed, but not really pain. I just stop when I saw I was losing blood on the ground: I hadn't realized I was hurt before that.
I guess adrenaline is really a sort of powerful natural drugs.

[ReKru]

we had a beginner start with me, he was a big tall guy, and would say stuff all the time about how he was going to bash up the experienced guys, try to break their arms with his shinai, hit them so hard over the head during practise that theyd pass out etc etc he was a good example of thuggish, stupid aggression.

You should not confuse this behavior with a kendoesque 'aggresiveness'.
Like you say, it's thuggish and stupid.

Guys can use that sort of 'tactics', because they have the physical build to support it. But on the other hand I've seen small women that look really fragile on the first impression beat such brutes, trough strong spirit (not getting impressed by the brutal onslaught) and superior technique.

Sometimes I wish some of the girls in our dojo where more aggressive - in the right way of course.
They have such good waza and everything (timing, speed), but they really lack seme and zanshin and their attacks seem rather weak, which is not because they are girls and/or physically weak, but I think because they refuse to switch into 'aggressive' mode.

There's this "win and then cut, don't cut to win" saying, which for me contains a certain "yo dude, you're so dead" attitude and some 'aggresive' pressure on the opponent, before I even attack (maybe at higher levels of kendo that's actually a more sublime thing, but for me, the "you're so dead" thing works :D ).

[tantadi]

The most passive people in my dojo are definitively some of the guys...it seems that it is easier to adress such things to women for instructors than to tell the guys that they are lacking in that department.

[Alison2805]

grrrrrr!! aaarrrggg!! snort!! growl!!!

Its so not me....however, sometimes I get into the zone like Willow - one saturday morning training when I was really tired we had to do 3 or 4 7minute shiais in a row, counting points but not stopping. I had to go against someone who is very challenging, but for some reason everything I tried went right and I got so into it I didnt want to stop!!! I felt like I was on cloud nine all day. I wish it was like that all the time.

I agree that kendo makes you feel more feminine in everyday life!! I definietly get more stressed and cranky when I miss training. Ive been working away for a few weeks, my first stint as "the boss", I really could have done with some kendo!!!! Hence why Im on here constantly...

[sainueng]

The most passive people in my dojo are definitively some of the guys...it seems that it is easier to adress such things to women for instructors than to tell the guys that they are lacking in that department.

I've had to tell several guys to be more aggressive. In fact, one of them was quite big and strong. Society teaches us to be nice and not hurt one another, so beginners sometimes have to overcome this resistance in order to hit another person with sufficient force at first. Better than the ones coming in to chop wood, I suppose. :D

Perhaps the term offensive is a good alternate term. Instinctively, people tend to block or retreat, which is not a good idea in kendo. I tell beginners that offense is the best defense is very true in kendo.

[Lone Kitten]

hmm, i keep being called agressive, and it's not a bad thing - the whole idea is to attack, therefore you have to be agressive. the thing is toeing the line between agressive enough and being too agressive... that's the hard bit

[tantadi]

I've had to tell several guys to be more aggressive. In fact, one of them was quite big and strong. Society teaches us to be nice and not hurt one another, so beginners sometimes have to overcome this resistance in order to hit another person with sufficient force at first. Better than the ones coming in to chop wood, I suppose. :D

Perhaps the term offensive is a good alternate term. Instinctively, people tend to block or retreat, which is not a good idea in kendo. I tell beginners that offense is the best defense is very true in kendo.
I like the term offensive. It says something about acting and doing, and is not that connected to a 'being in an emotional state'.

(If you understand, english is not my first language.)

[Alison2805]

yep, being on the offensive is a great way to describe it. I spend too much of my time being on the defensive, waiting for the other guy to attack. Thats when I get told to be more aggressive.

[T.Nilges]

Being offensive in Kendo is important. But it requires a balance. Too much offense will drain your stamina and if you opponent has been "holding down the pillow" then they can easily finish you. An offensive style should never be a substitute for technique. Nor should focus on technique lead to an overly-reserved play style.

There is a girl is my dojo who is very skilled. However she lacks agression. In individual shiais she usually advances up to about 3rd tier (counting from the bottom) but is then knocked out by a more agressive player who can take advantage of her hesitance. In training I am often able to score many hits on her by using strong clean strikes. She can be described as the sterotypical "de kote" player.

In contrast to her is another girl who recently joined my dojo. She is a first year (high school) and is an 1 kyu. She has a good offensive style and I have been very impressed by her. She will probably surpass the aforementioned girl (a 3 dan) with a year or so.

(This is beginning to ramble a bit, excuse me) Recently I was at a shiai in which we each had three bouts and the best two from each group moved on. After my first bout (which I lost) I was approached by the head sensei who had taken an intrest in me, as I was the only foriegner there, and told me, "As you are a low rank you must press the attack. Use large powerful strikes. Avoid taiatare and follow through as if you were doing uchikomi or kagarigeiko. Hit him over and over again and do not give him a chance to use his technique." I took his advice and went back to my second bout, which I lost. He came back again and told me that while I must remain agressive, I should not let my back falter and fall forward (not as profound as the first but what can I do?). Thanking him again I went back in and this time won with a kote and men.

I have heard similar advice from many sensei. When you are of lower rank you should always be pressing the attack. This is as much a matter of strategy as it is one of courtesy. I have consistently noticed that in tournaments the agressive girls are the ones that take the highest places. Do not be ashamed to be told you are an agressive player, but do not let your spirit grow too great. Remember it is "Ki-Ken-Tachi" Keeping these in balance is the best road to mastery.

[Budo Angel]

I agree in part with Nilges - I too was told agression was part of my 'problem' for shiai.

Skilled, good technique as a 3 dan, but even lower grades with less kendo 'vocab' would surpass me purely on the agression factor. This of course doesn't infer that agression over good technique will always win, it won't. There are a fair few women winning shiai with agression and not brilliant technique, and good kendo-ka not wining.

But agression may give the edge if all other things are equal. At the highest level, champions generally have both in good measure.

This is a sad debate as Kendo or any budo shouldn't be about agression, personally speaking I think perhaps its the way you're perhaps debating the question. Only a personal view.

[ReKru]

This is a sad debate as Kendo or any budo shouldn't be about agression, personally speaking I think perhaps its the way you're perhaps debating the question. Only a personal view.

Only if you limit the meaning of the word 'agression' to something applicable to dictators, hooligans and wifebeaters.
Chado and origami shouldn't be about agression, budo should - it's "martial arts" after all - warefare, fighting etc.
It should teach you how to deal with other people's aggression (if you get attacked) as well as control, channel and use your own one.
(in my opinion, not as global statement)

If the word sounds better to your ears, use "fighting spirit" instead of "agression".


But then again "you don't have fighting spirit" sounds a lot worse than "you're not aggressive" in my ears.

[ReKru]

I forgot the conclusion :)

But then again "you don't have fighting spirit" sounds a lot worse than "you're not aggressive" in my ears. ...
So most people that want to give you good advice on how to improve will not say the first, but the second sentence, and in your ears it will actually sound o.k., since, after all, you're not an agressive person and totally fine with that.

If they told you, "you lack fighting spirit", it would be a lot harsher criticism than they intend.

[T.Nilges]

There are a fair few women winning shiai with aggression and not brilliant technique, and good kendo-ka not wining.

This is the focus of two different schools of thought. The first (which I shall call the Traditionalist view) is that Kendo is a way or road (do) first, and a competitive sport second or not at all. The second (the Duelist view) is that kendo is a sport and as such training should focus on shiai technique. The later is often the case with kumdo and there is currently a very good article up at Kendo World by Dr. Bennett regarding the subject.

As many people have noted (and as should be clear from the above explanation) Duelists win bouts whilst Traditionalists aim for self-improvement. Where I believe a common fallacy lies is that Duelists are aggressive and Traditionalists are passive. These terms are only indicative of the focus of ones study, not of ones style. Miyamoto Musashi, one could argue, was a passive Duelist (though in his time there was little difference between Duelists and Traditionalists, if none at all. It would be more apt to say his "Duelist philosophies were passive" than to call him a Duelist as such) his techniques such as "holding down the pillow" and breaking from set form and etiquette to unnerve an opponent were effective aids to winning without advocating a rash and aggressive style of attack. Musashi advocated learning many different styles and using them interchangeably as the situation dictated. It is this concept that I feel should be most actively applied to Kendo.

If we learn and understand the perspectives of both Traditionalist and Duelist, Aggressive and Passive, we can be flexible and apply the best possible style and mindset to the situation at hand. I have seen this as the dominant incarnation of Kendo outside of Japan. Without the roots of Japanese culture, some of the basics of Traditionalist Kendo become an obstacle as opposed to a foundation. By letting ourselves view Kendo from all angles we gain understanding. Whilst those who head down a single path achieve greater mastery than others in there chosen proficiency at the cost of another.

Those who win Shiai find accomplishment in one facet of Kendo, those who perfect technique find it in another, those who study the history of Kendo my find yet another side of it. In the end an aggressive Kendoka wins because that is what they desire, whereas a practiced kendoka wins not in shiai but in the knowledge of their skill. There are many paths within the one path we call Kendo achievement in some of these may be more obvious than others, but who is to say which is the most worthy path? Should it not be the mastery of all? Whoever can accomplish this is a true master.




P.S. Forgive my rambling I tried to stay as close to the subject as I could. I have spent a lot of my time meditating on these very ideas, and find myself severely lacking in venues to release these musings. If you want me to be more concise please say so. Or (as would be my wish) if you would like me to expand the length of my ramblings do not hesitate to tell me! I would more than welcome the chance!

[Alexandra]

With regard to the shiai's, I have noticed that when a woman shows an aggressive attitude for some reason, and since this is not so frequent for women, it seems that shinpans have then a tendency to give hansoku. In return, when a woman makes an error, they only advise but with no hansoku.

I mean that for instance, if an opponent is located close to the shiai line by error, in men category we see that strong tayatari's normally push their opponent out and hansoku is given to the one who goes out. However, women need to be more careful, so that to demonstrate that pushing the opponent has not been intentionally done, as shinpans have more doubts on who has been responsible and whether pushing their opponent out has been done in an aggressive way or has been too evident. They even do "Gogi" to decide who is penalised with hansoku. Then people make comments such as "how rude she was with that poor girl"... "look the way she has pushed her out"...

This does not happen for boys. We usually see strong tayatari's close to the line and when pushing their opponents, the one who goes out is always guilty.

Same case occurs when a girl falls down. Normally falling down or laying in the grown means hansoku and the opponent can even get some point while the other lays on the floor. However, shinpans never give hansoku to a girl who fell. They just stop the fight and check whether she is injured. It seems that it's never hansoku when a girl falls or even when her shinai is also on the floor.

I also noticed something different for boys in other type of errors. When girls perform tsubazeriai, "kotes" are too raised and we cut ourselves with the opponent's shinai, this should be hansoku, but shinpans just stop the fight and advise this is not appropriate. They never give hansoku.

I think that this is not the right way to proceed and I don't want to be treated in a different way than boys. When I start with shia-jo, I forget that I'm a girl and when my opponent is a boy, I want him to perform at 100% because this is the best way to learn.

[Alison2805]

I have never had these problems with shimpans.

[Lloromannic]

Falling down is not a hansoku.

[Lloromannic]

This is the focus of two different schools of thought. The first (which I shall call the Traditionalist view) is that Kendo is a way or road (do) first, and a competitive sport second or not at all. The second (the Duelist view) is that kendo is a sport and as such training should focus on shiai technique. The later is often the case with kumdo and there is currently a very good article up at Kendo World by Dr. Bennett regarding the subject.


In all the videos I've seen of old Kendo, they are far more aggressive than most modern shiai I've seen.

[Paburo]

Falling down is not a hansoku.
falling down and not getting up quickly (i.e. staying on the floor till the shinpan have time to call 'yame') is hansoku in my book....

[Neil Gendzwill]

Falling down is never hansoku unless you lay face down and cover up.

Alexandra, I judge women's matches the same way I judge the men, and in observing other shimpan I don't see any difference. So I wouldn't be so quick to generalise, perhaps this is just your perception of the local situation.

[Lone Kitten]

With regard to the shiai's, I have noticed that when a woman shows an aggressive attitude for some reason, and since this is not so frequent for women, it seems that shinpans have then a tendency to give hansoku. In return, when a woman makes an error, they only advise but with no hansoku.

I mean that for instance, if an opponent is located close to the shiai line by error, in men category we see that strong tayatari's normally push their opponent out and hansoku is given to the one who goes out. However, women need to be more careful, so that to demonstrate that pushing the opponent has not been intentionally done, as shinpans have more doubts on who has been responsible and whether pushing their opponent out has been done in an aggressive way or has been too evident. They even do "Gogi" to decide who is penalised with hansoku. Then people make comments such as "how rude she was with that poor girl"... "look the way she has pushed her out"...

This does not happen for boys. We usually see strong tayatari's close to the line and when pushing their opponents, the one who goes out is always guilty.

Same case occurs when a girl falls down. Normally falling down or laying in the grown means hansoku and the opponent can even get some point while the other lays on the floor. However, shinpans never give hansoku to a girl who fell. They just stop the fight and check whether she is injured. It seems that it's never hansoku when a girl falls or even when her shinai is also on the floor.

I also noticed something different for boys in other type of errors. When girls perform tsubazeriai, "kotes" are too raised and we cut ourselves with the opponent's shinai, this should be hansoku, but shinpans just stop the fight and advise this is not appropriate. They never give hansoku.

I think that this is not the right way to proceed and I don't want to be treated in a different way than boys. When I start with shia-jo, I forget that I'm a girl and when my opponent is a boy, I want him to perform at 100% because this is the best way to learn.



I used to have this problem, but then i realised it was just me. people don't treat me any different from men, but i used to get annoyed with people for not cutting properly, thinking they were going easy on me, but it turned out that they just weren't cutting properly. once i started to take a much more objective view (and abandoned the view that i'd never get anywhere because i was a girl) then my kendo got a lot better. Thing is, it turned out that there were a few major issues with my kendo that i was ignoring, thinking people were being harsh on me... my back foot WAS a bit too high and my shinai did drift from the centre from time to time. i just needed to keep my "kendo mind" as my japanese sensei called it. forget about gender when youre actually fencing - that's what i did. there may be things for women to consider in kendo - but when theyre fencing the main thing is that there really is very little difference - if someone is pushing too strongly then they should be told, even if it's a woman pushing too strongly, just as much as if it were a man. Example here - the BKA recently banned tsuki against women - then revised it to "no tsuki in mixed matches". A strong woman who does tsuki badly is just as bad as a strong man who does tsuki badly.

just my two cents... :emb:

[Alison2805]

why the hell would you ban tsuki against women?? Or mixed matches for that matter??
Someone explain that one to me so I can revise my current assumption that this BKA rule is a load of crap.

[Alexandra]

Example here - the BKA recently banned tsuki against women - then revised it to "no tsuki in mixed matches".
I was just referring to this kind of things.

I'm not saying that we, as women, are being discriminate. What I meant is just the contrary: sometimes people are being too considerate with us, just because we are women and that makes me feel uncomfortable. Kendo, is just kendo, implies the risk to be injured and we have to assume it.
Some girls at Kendo are always complaining on injuries or about receiving incorrect hits, while they normally do the same thing although they seem not to be aware. I don't agree with this attitude. Kendo is not ballet or aerobics: we are all at risk and we have to assume it as boys do, and this also includes tsukis.

[h2o]

Banning tsuki in mixed matches? I mean, I can understand why there is a lady's class at competitions, but to change the rules based on who you are fighting seems.... silly. :rolleyes:

[Budo Angel]

Girls, I think may be a point is being missed here, besides the overzealous health & safety (insurance) aspects/zealots.

Banning tsuki in mixed matches and adult to junior (ie. under 18) is not about cotton wool, or taking things easy...

We all know in the heat of shiai, when "push comes to shove", shove normally wins, both sides (women/man/junior). And body weight or lack of control behind a tsuki to someone potentially who doesn't have the same body mass, is dangerous. Even man-to-man, we've all seen the video clips/matches which draw breath from bad tsukis.

I think organisers are simply being responsible in mixed matches. Sure some women are physically the same as men, but you can't choose or match weight/height - so you blanket ban at the beginning.

Sure, bruises, missed cuts/whacks etc etc, hazards of Kendo - but give a thought to those organising these events...

No one said tsuki in mixed KEIKO or training is banned, just shiai - ie. a match where someone is trying to win, sometimes at all costs.

No one suggested this is ballet or us being fluffy. Anyway my two pence worth from someone who has been in mixed matches.

Good luck, stop getting so feminist.

[Willow]

I think organisers are simply being responsible in mixed matches. Sure some women are physically the same as men, but you can't choose or match weight/height - so you blanket ban at the beginning.


I can see your point, but you can't choose or match weight/height between guys either. Some guys are bigger and stronger than other guys. Doesn't it logically follow that tsuki should be banned for everybody? Or at least for all kendoka, male and female, below a very high skill level? ( and by that I mean a level that most people won't be able to attain) . Don't just single out women.

[stephanie dee]

HAHA!! Me... aggressive??? HA! Thats a laugh!

Example:

Big scary male Kendoka points shinai at me. Kiais. Threatens to strike. I cower and beg him not to hit me hard please!

No, I don't think that anyone could ever call me aggressive in Kendo...

As for tsuki... that should be illegal. The first and only ever time I have been tsukied it missed the pad and went right under my men. It really shook me up and knocked my confidence. It was horrible!

I have no problem in fencing blokes, so long as they can show control and take into consideration that I am in fact not only a beginner but also a woman, and that I don't personally like being hit as hard as some of the other blokes do. So long as you can do that, I don't mind fencing you, but that rule goes for anyone, not just men, women too.

[h2o]

As for tsuki... that should be illegal. The first and only ever time I have been tsukied it missed the pad and went right under my men. It really shook me up and knocked my confidence. It was horrible!Well, if you don't practice it, you won't be ready when it happens. If you are doing kendo, at some point you will receive a tsuki. It's not something you can really control. It is valid target, and I think very few people have something against it.

I have no problem in fencing blokes, so long as they can show control and take into consideration that I am in fact not only a beginner but also a woman, and that I don't personally like being hit as hard as some of the other blokes do. So long as you can do that, I don't mind fencing you, but that rule goes for anyone, not just men, women too. Why should someone consider your gender? Being considerate because of age, size and skill is one thing, but I would feel really sexist if I started going easier on girls because they are girls. I was under the impression that most women today don't want to be treated like they are second class citizens?

[lucy]

Why should someone consider your gender? Being considerate because of age, size and skill is one thing, but I would feel really sexist if I started going easier on girls because they are girls. I was under the impression that most women today don't want to be treated like they are second class citizens?

I completely agree with you, I don't want anyone to be extra-careful just because I'm a girl.

[MAZ77]

HAHA!! Me... aggressive??? HA! Thats a laugh!

Example:

Big scary male Kendoka points shinai at me. Kiais. Threatens to strike. I cower and beg him not to hit me hard please!

No, I don't think that anyone could ever call me aggressive in Kendo...

As for tsuki... that should be illegal. The first and only ever time I have been tsukied it missed the pad and went right under my men. It really shook me up and knocked my confidence. It was horrible!

I have no problem in fencing blokes, so long as they can show control and take into consideration that I am in fact not only a beginner but also a woman, and that I don't personally like being hit as hard as some of the other blokes do. So long as you can do that, I don't mind fencing you, but that rule goes for anyone, not just men, women too.

I really dont think you will have to worry about it. Generally, and you will always see the exceptions, when 2 kenodists face off, they respond to eachother with pretty much an opposite equal force. So if you are cowering and have absolutely no seme, then chances are the person you are fighting will not respond with strong seme etc. This is most apparent in novices because they are not able to control themselves as well, they can only react; so they respond with the same force as the other guy. The better you get, the more you are able to stay within your style, but you will always get sucked in at some points to respond with the same type of force; happens a lot in tournaments.

To summarize, most guys wont fight a girls they way they usually fight a guy because practically speaking, most girls arent as aggressive as men. caveat, there are the expcetions and we all have been beat down by exceptional girls at many stages in our kendo careers.

[Ignatz]

To summarize, most guys wont fight a girls they way they usually fight a guy because practically speaking, most girls arent as aggressive as men. caveat, there are the expcetions and we all have been beat down by exceptional girls at many stages in our kendo careers.
When we do shiai practice I would not think twice about a quick strong tsuki against any of the dan ranked women in our club and would so the same in real shia.
I think if someone tried to ban tsuki in mixed matches every woman in our club would be against it.

[Naginatagirl]

I would really disagree with that BKA rule, but I'm still mudansha, so no tsuki in shiai for me anyway (I'll dicide on my opinion when I get there). But I'm usually taller than the guys I'm against, and I'm physically strong, so I don't see the point of going easier or softer on a girl because she's a girl. I mean, do that if you want, but don't be surprised if she takes you by surprise and you end up on your back 'cause you weren't prepared.

Why should someone consider your gender? Being considerate because of age, size and skill is one thing, but I would feel really sexist if I started going easier on girls because they are girls. I was under the impression that most women today don't want to be treated like they are second class citizens?
You'd be right. Age, size, skill, now that makes a lot more sense for keiko.

Big scary male Kendoka points shinai at me. Kiais. Threatens to strike. I cower and beg him not to hit me hard please!
I was hoping you were being sarcastic...

[Willow]

...As for tsuki... that should be illegal. The first and only ever time I have been tsukied it missed the pad and went right under my men. It really shook me up and knocked my confidence. It was horrible!

I have no problem in fencing blokes, so long as they can show control and take into consideration that I am in fact not only a beginner but also a woman...

Doing a tsuki on a beginner is really dangerous and very poor form. IMHO that is not good kendo.

[stephanie dee]

Being considerate because of age, size and skill is one thing, but I would feel really sexist if I started going easier on girls because they are girls.

No, I don't want people to take into consideration that I am female, I just don't like being hit very hard. What you said is what I meant. But i do not like being hit hard, and yes I am very intimidated by most people whom I fence. No, i am not very good at kendo... :)

[Alison2805]

I still think that BKA rule is rubbish. Tsuki is a valid strike and is part of kendo. If you ban it in shiai, fair enough, but ban it for EVERYONE. I want to be treated the same as everyone else and Im no damn feminist. I like doing tsuki, and if you practise and get good at it, theres no problem (I need to practise more, any volenteers??). We do it a training quite regularly and Ive seen a couple of bruises, but nothing as serious as some of the missed kotes.

[Alison2805]

and no, I wouldnt do tsuki on a beginner or anyone who told me they werent comfortable with it.

[Joanne]

I get told to be more aggressive, i always take it as a positive because when I am more aggressive, I feel like I have fought really well.

[Willow]

I get told to be more aggressive, i always take it as a positive because when I am more aggressive, I feel like I have fought really well.
Welcome, Joanne:happy:. That's a good way of looking at it. I guess if you can always keep that positive feeling about kendo then the odd negative comment will fall into perspective.

[TheChessQueen]

Kendo is my anger management class... jp
But I am called very aggressive... especially since I am a tiny person
"short person complex"