thumb on tsuba?

[mark]

I've recently been told that there has been a change in the way we should be entering the court during shiai. I used to enter the court the same way I do kata by placing the thumb over the tsuba just before entering the court. I've been told that we should not place your thumb on the tsuba with kote. How do you do it in your region?

[Halcyon]

Placing the thumb on the tsuba while wearing kote has not been customary or a requirement in any shiai I have entered.

[tango]

Actually, I've never had my thumb on the tsuba for shiai.. or shinsa.. (except for kata)...

[bullet08]

I've recently been told that there has been a change in the way we should be entering the court during shiai. I used to enter the court the same way I do kata by placing the thumb over the tsuba just before entering the court. I've been told that we should not place your thumb on the tsuba with kote. How do you do it in your region?

years ago when i started kendo, i was told to put the thumb on the tsuba, but i don't see anyone else doing it. out of habit i do it when i do not have kote on. but with kote on, i don't do it. i didn't even know there was regulation for this..

pete

[Charlie]

This seems strange to me because the way we have always done it is...

Sword at side. Rei. Sword on hip with thumb on tsuba. Begin.

So, for example, entering shiai-jo. Step in. Sword at side. Rei. Sword on hip with thumb on tsuba. Three steps forward, draw, sonkyo. Hajime. The reverse at the end.

We do this also at practice. I thought it was universal.

[DCPan]

I've recently been told that there has been a change in the way we should be entering the court during shiai. I used to enter the court the same way I do kata by placing the thumb over the tsuba just before entering the court. I've been told that we should not place your thumb on the tsuba with kote. How do you do it in your region?

Your thumb should not be on the tsuba until you do tai-to, which is AFTER you bow to your opponent, which is in turn AFTER you step into the court.

1. outside court
2. step into court in sage-to with thumb not on tsuba
3. bow
4. tai-to (thumb on tsuba if kote not too tight)
5. three step in
6. sonkyo

P.S. Oops, I should have read Charlie's post before I posted...

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's no longer necessary when using shinai. Actually, I had heard from some sensei that they weren't even asking for that during kata. I continue to do so and teach that way because it's a small detail related to the handling of real swords and I like it.

[Kenjutsushi]

Placing one's thumb over the tsuba is left over from kendo's origin where actual swords with sheaths were practiced with. It is simply tradition in being there to ensure that one's sword doesn't slde out from the sheath in the event that one ends up bending over for something, etc.

[Paikea]

Placing one's thumb over the tsuba is left over from kendo's origin where actual swords with sheaths were practiced with. It is simply tradition in being there to ensure that one's sword doesn't slde out from the sheath in the event that one ends up bending over for something, etc.Hmmm...methinks ye know not (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187976&postcount=4) of what you speak. "Sheath" is one of those words, like "spar" and "stance" and "slash" that tend to reveal veracity or a lack of it.

[mark]

This seems strange to me because the way we have always done it is...

Sword at side. Rei. Sword on hip with thumb on tsuba. Begin.

So, for example, entering shiai-jo. Step in. Sword at side. Rei. Sword on hip with thumb on tsuba. Three steps forward, draw, sonkyo. Hajime. The reverse at the end.


You are right! That is the detail of how we used to do it. (After step in, and rei...Sword on hip horizontal, with thumb on tsuba...). My bad:(
Now, no thumb with shinai. I would appear that the thumb on the shinai is not universal. I wonder what the kumdo people do?

At the worlds, do you see both?

[tango]

Placing one's thumb over the tsuba is left over from kendo's origin where actual swords with sheaths were practiced with. It is simply tradition in being there to ensure that one's sword doesn't slde out from the sheath in the event that one ends up bending over for something, etc.

Man, please... everybody around here already knows that.

Just go back to the jodan thread.

[DCPan]

Placing one's thumb over the tsuba is left over from kendo's origin where actual swords with sheaths were practiced with. It is simply tradition in being there to ensure that one's sword doesn't slde out from the sheath in the event that one ends up bending over for something, etc.

There's also the koi-guchi-giri piece of it.

[kj_kim323]

I remember an older thread talking about whether or not it was even possible to do this with kote on.

Maybe my kote isn't broken in enough yet, but I'd find it near impossible to put my thumb on the tsuba.

[Thomas P.]

This seems strange to me because the way we have always done it is...

Sword at side. Rei. Sword on hip with thumb on tsuba. Begin.

So, for example, entering shiai-jo. Step in. Sword at side. Rei. Sword on hip with thumb on tsuba. Three steps forward, draw, sonkyo. Hajime. The reverse at the end.

We do this also at practice. I thought it was universal.


This is exactly how we learned it when I was doing Kendo in Germany. I also thought this is rather universal.

Thomas

[ben]

For me putting the thumb on the tsuba, whether wearing kote or not, is essential. I would feel unprepared if I didn't do it.
b

[GoldenShinai]

Hmmm...methinks ye know not (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187976&postcount=4) of what you speak. "Sheath" is one of those words, like "spar" and "stance" and "slash" that tend to reveal veracity or a lack of it.

Now was that really necessary? Ok, maybe it was.

But on topic, because I practice iaido with my kendo, having my thumb on the tsuba is second nature. And, if you replace the word "sheath" with "saya", it is for the exact reason that he said it was. So cut the guy some slack, he apologized for that monster of a post. It's better than most of the backyard ninjas who show up here.

[Ignatz]

Hmmm...methinks ye know not (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187976&postcount=4) of what you speak. "Sheath" is one of those words, like "spar" and "stance" and "slash" that tend to reveal veracity or a lack of it.
To us geezers, "sheath" is one of those things that english protestants put on their johnson twice a year when they do it.

[Kenjutsushi]

To us geezers, "sheath" is one of those things that english protestants put on their johnson twice a year when they do it.
Lol. Yeah sorry, I just use sheath and edge and so forth out of habbit if I'm not in my dojo just because it's rare that I am dealing with people outside of my dojo that know parts. So I just don't use saya, mune, ha, etc. usually. Part of what you have to do to get your first kyu rank in my school is knowing major sword parts and stuff. Our senior student can remember all... 238 I think?... parts.

[don don]

This seems strange to me because the way we have always done it is...

Sword at side. Rei. Sword on hip with thumb on tsuba. Begin.

So, for example, entering shiai-jo. Step in. Sword at side. Rei. Sword on hip with thumb on tsuba. Three steps forward, draw, sonkyo. Hajime. The reverse at the end.

We do this also at practice. I thought it was universal.

Yeah, me too.

[Maro]

To us geezers, "sheath" is one of those things that english protestants put on their johnson twice a year when they do it.

Rubber Johnnies? I was struggling to describe them in the USA:shocked:

[hyuna]

"Sheath" is one of those words, like "spar" and "stance" and "slash" that tend to reveal veracity or a lack of it.
One of "those" words?

You mean, an english word? :rolleyes:

[crabbi]

To us geezers, "sheath" is one of those things that english protestants put on their johnson twice a year when they do it.
My God... twice a year...!!! Obviously not married then...! Where do you find the energy...? R.E.S.P.E.C.T...

[The great I AM]

Lol. Yeah sorry, I just use sheath and edge and so forth out of habbit if I'm not in my dojo just because it's rare that I am dealing with people outside of my dojo that know parts. So I just don't use saya, mune, ha, etc. usually. Part of what you have to do to get your first kyu rank in my school is knowing major sword parts and stuff. Our senior student can remember all... 238 I think?... parts.I get it. Because we're not part of your "dojo", doing your "real" kendo, you use words like sheath, and wooden sword, and helmet, right? Heh, helmet.

[Ignatz]

Methinks the lad spends too much time polishing said helmet.

[Seiza_Seizure]

Your shinai represents a sword. Therefore you must treat it like a sword. Thumb on the tsuba keeps your sword secure. Well that's just how I have been taught. It feels incorrect for me if I do not follow this procedure.

[bobdonny]

Placing one's thumb over the tsuba is left over from kendo's origin where actual swords with sheaths were practiced with. It is simply tradition in being there to ensure that one's sword doesn't slde out from the sheath in the event that one ends up bending over for something, etc.

Actually the act of putting your thumb over the tsuba is all about zanshin.
Its is an action of being prepared should your opponent try to take your sword from you. In most Dojo's it just shows to the other people that you are prepared mentally. (I'm open to disagreements>?)

Wether necessary or not, i think everyone should try to do it, it feels right.

[The great I AM]

Methinks the lad spends too much time polishing said helmet.Hur hur, polishing the helmet. Saying hello to Mrs Palm and her five lovely daughters...

[Charlie]

Same here, Ben. This could be just one of those bits of reigi that people talk about changing from time to time, but some do and others don't and the IKF doesn't issue an edict on it. I'd be very surprised if this changed considering what the thumb on tsuba is supposed to indicate, as has been discussed.

[akumalkenshi]

Thats how I was told, and kept doing it since.

and after reading this post, and all the comments, it makes even more sense to keep doing so.

[egtirello]

same as charlie said, thumb on tsuba, our sensei teaches us that way, and it feels better in that way, I think that there must be a rule on the ikf to preserve this tradition,
maybe we can sign a petition ?

[Kingofmyrrh]

Most ZNKR teachers I've met say that these days there's no need to place the thumb on the tsuba, and they don't do it themselves. Some people even carry this practice to kata. Since they changed it so that you don't fully "draw" the bokuto in kata but just do a more shinai-style draw, it seems kind of pointless to keep pretending that it's a real sword, but anyway, I can't really pretend that I care all that much.

[bobdonny]

it seems kind of pointless to keep pretending that it's a real sword,

Aint that a major part of seme??? How u must believe it to be a real sword and that you are trying to kill your oponent?

[Kenshi]

As someone who puts his thumb on the tsuba (cos thats how I learned originally) I tend to notice when the High and Mighty dont. Its as King says -- here in Japan almost nobody does it outside of kata. In fact, I cant recall having seen anyone do it.

Its just like us saying TENUGUI, when everyone in Japan says MEN-TOWERU, or people frightened to wear all white, or concentrating on kata rather than shinai kendo, etc etc... we are a bit retrograde like that!!!

[Usagi San]

My sensei he is very traditional, he pays a lot of attention to those small details in rei, very "japanese old school", and he never, ever, told us to have the thumb on the tsuba when you're wearing kote. Never.

Thumb goes on tsuka when you use bokuto, only.

I thought that was universal. :smiley:

[Charlie]

My experience has been exactly the opposite: thumb always on tsuba when preparing to draw, and the draw should resemble drawing it from a saya and follow the correct path over one's shoulder and into the front, same for kata with bokuto and shinai for keiko/shiai. In fact, we recently had an all-state practice where the head sensei of our region reinforced this. I personally will always do it and always treasure it and think about it.

[Usagi San]

Charlie San:
And when you draw, bokuto or shinai, you do with or without stopping?
I mean, you know that small stop some people do when drawing, like in the first third of the movement.
Do you understand what I'm saying?

[Charlie]

Yes, Usagi. I imitate the head sensei of this region, who draws the shinai or bokuto about a third of the way out, then brings the shinai out and over the left shoulder and in front. Sensei said recently that you don't have to do this draw-a-third-of-the-way motion, but you do have to bring the weapon over the shoulder in an arc. See here:

http://www.kendo-usa.org/reference/studyguide.htm

Is the beginning rei to the opponent done properly, is the shinai at sage-to during the rei and at tai-to with thumb on the tsuba as each Kenshi advances onto the court.

The footwork as they advance onto the court should be smooth sliding steps with the toes down. The draw of the sword should be in the kesa-giri manner as each Kenshi starts their third step. The sonkyo position should be assumed with the back straight and the elbows not touching the thighs.

[Usagi San]

It's all the same thing here. Except for the thumb, of course.
Stop or no stop doesn't matter, but Osaka Sensei likes a little bit more if you don't stop.
Another thing, since we are talking about this, I'm curious: did they teach you that, when finishing sonkyo, your left hand should "embrace" the bottom of the tsuka, just the same moment your... well... ass touches your heels?
I saw some people (hachidan, as a matter of fact) that not only draw from the center, almost behind their heads, but also do a full chudan-kamae before going down to sonkyo.
Any comments?

[Charlie]

Hmm. I don't think it's ever been touched on that specifically for me or, if it has, I didn't notice. I believe we are simply expected to embrace the tsuka somewhere on the way down. I personally have the tsuka held in my left and right before I sonkyo, probably just before I sonkyo.

Sensei recently said that a big, straight down, from behind the back motion on this is old skool way of doing it.

[DCPan]

I'm curious: did they teach you that, when finishing sonkyo, your left hand should "embrace" the bottom of the tsuka, just the same moment your... well... ass touches your heels?
I saw some people (hachidan, as a matter of fact) that not only draw from the center, almost behind their heads, but also do a full chudan-kamae before going down to sonkyo.
Any comments?

For kendo kata, one of my sensei taught me to get into chudan then sonkyo because if you advanced too deep for too shallow, you can compensate while getting into sonkyo.

If you don't fully cross your sword until you are in sonkyo, if you find yourself too deep or too shallow, it is too late to adjust then.

YMMV.

[Usagi San]

For kendo kata, one of my sensei taught me to get into chudan then sonkyo because if you advanced too deep for too shallow, you can compensate while getting into sonkyo.

See? Now you made me curious again. So I went to check out "Kendo Kata essence and application" and this what they say:

Page 9, point 15 (a)
"Do not go down into sonkyo after the sword has been drawn, but as it is being drawn."

Hey, I know sometimes they teach us contradictory stuff. I'm just adding to the conversation, ok?
In Glasgow during the WKC an hachidan hanshi sensei told me to lower the kensen during sambonme (uchidachi going back while shidachi 1-2-3 step?) like if it was gedan-kamae only lower. Center and really low. Who I'm I do desagree with a hachidan? Of course I did it.
In Kitamoto last summer, Sueno sensei (another hachidan) looked at me, smiled like if I was nuts and corrected me back to what I always had been doing. Slightly to the side, more or less at opponent's knee level, etc.
Who's correct? Maybe both?...

[Charlie]

These are acceptable contradictions. Fact is, some sensei do it differently they learned it differently, they'll always do it differently and teach it differently.

[ben]

When I am teaching, and I teach mostly young people, some of whom haven't the greatest motivation for kendo, I teach them to place the thumb on the tsuba when using the shinai because they aren't wearing kote and it's fairly easy for them to do it. I also find the narrative explanation of why it is done, and the way it directly connects a seemingly insignificant physical movement to a history so different from their present lives, to be a hugely powerful incentive for them to become more curious about kendo. IOW it helps to 'fire their imaginations'.

To more motivated and slightly older students I connect it to the fact that it is an example of the physical being able to directly affect the mental through the use of ritual, a reversal of the usual way of thinking of our bodies as being completely controlled by the mind.

b

[Newbie]

Kenjustsushi said:

Placing one's thumb over the tsuba is left over from kendo's origin where actual swords with sheaths were practiced with. It is simply tradition in being there to ensure that one's sword doesn't slde out from the sheath in the event that one ends up bending over for something, etc.

Hang about, I thought thumb on the tsuba was to break the sword? If you try to stop a sword from falling out of the saya with only your thumb on the tsuba, there's gonna be blood all over the place anyway, (if it's a shinken). The way to stop it if it falls is to break with thumb and index finger. (sorry, this came up in a seminar today from a rokudan and yondan)

But generally when you're using bokken, just having the thumb there to replicate the fact that you could break and draw at any time, thereby keeping pressure on your opponent makes sense. Else you're just swinging wood about if there's no zanshin and you're not pretending it's a live blade anymore that's threatening your partner/opponent.

But back to the original comment - as a general rule we have thumb on when kote are off and if kote are on we don't worry about the thumb being on. It seems everyone does it differently.

[uToRz]

orh..just after my grading(1st grading i took!) was over, the sensei there (an austrialian 6th dan sensei i think) was telling all of us that we should keep our thumb on the tsuba..hrm..ever since then i have been trying to do it.
but i realised that it is so difficult to do it with the kote on... hrmm... maybe i need to get used to it more hee..only been wearing bogu for less than a mth

[Dr. Hellsing]

i never did put my thumb on the tsuba before untill i started praticing iaido.
cool, uToRz, so ur 1kyu now?

[Manuka]

Our Dojo practices both Kendo and Iaido. Sensei prefers consistency and wants the thumb on.

[DCPan]

See? Now you made me curious again. So I went to check out "Kendo Kata essence and application" and this what they say:

Page 9, point 15 (a)
"Do not go down into sonkyo after the sword has been drawn, but as it is being drawn."

Hey, I know sometimes they teach us contradictory stuff. I'm just adding to the conversation, ok?

Hey, no problem.

I actually described it poorly.

I made it sound like you get into a full chudan before sonkyo even happens, which is not true, because that'd be choppy.

The essence of what that sensei says is that if your sword tips don't cross until you are fully in sonkyo, it is too late to adjust your maai.

In practice, what really happens in the version I'm talking about is that the bokkens are to cross about half way on your way down into sonkyo, so you would have a bit of room to adjust before you have fully squatted, if necessary.

Hope that makes sense.

[Usagi San]

Hope that makes sense.

Crystal clear.

[uToRz]

eh? no!! i am only 7th kyu! i just got into bogu not long ago but the thumb on tsuba was addressed to everyone taking the grading...

[Yiu Fai]

but i realised that it is so difficult to do it with the kote on... hrmm... maybe i need to get used to it more hee..only been wearing bogu for less than a mth

Putting your thumb on tsuba whilst wearing kote isnt that hard, if I can do it I'm sure you can too! :D