my shoulder again

[rottunpunk]

i noticed green arrows back, so maybe she can help with this, but id like other peoples opinions too.

ive had a shoulder problem for 4 years. i think i did it in kendo, but it could have been something else.
anyways, my archery teacher said it sounds like a common archery injury, where the rotary cuff or suspratinatus? is damaged.
im looking for a decent osteopath. but can anyone recomend someone whos speciality is in this stuff?
and is it likely to recover after 4 years? or will it need surgery?
ive tried total, and partial rest, and sports massage, and homeopathy, and acupuncture, and stretch it many times during the day...and ive seen 3 gp's, the closest i got to treatment from them was being put on a 26 week nhs physio waiting list that i was still waiting on after 54 weeks
cheers for any advice...again
:p

[tango]

osteopath is what you need...

i had a shoulder problem about 3 or 4 years ago... went to a GP and was told it was bursitis... gave me some pills... eventually, it went away (i don't think the pills helped at all).

then.. no problems with it until about 3 weeks ago and it started acting up again... came and went in 2 days' time.

We did have a guy in our class (PatientDharma (sp?) on this board) who tore his rotator cuff, but I don't remember if it was from class or not.
He had surgery on it and is out for about 6 weeks(?) I believe...

[MikeW]

I would definitely go to an osteopath as shoulder problems are not always easy for a non-specialist to correctly identify. I also have shoulder problems and was batted around a bit by gp's till my endocrinologist (of all people) sent me to an osteo. I figured it was some kind of rotator cuff injury but it turns out my problem is adhesive capsulitis (which is likely not yours as it doesn't typically heal fast, although it will get better on its own at least partially)... anyways, my osteopath put me through a series of tests and xrays etc and was able to get me on the mend. Well sorta.. unfortunately adhesive capsulitis is a recurring, chronic type of thing sometimes even if you have surgery to correct it.... but thats another story. Good luck on getting it taken care of and I hope its nothing too serious or time consuming!

[rottunpunk]

cheers for the advice guys.
ill go hunt out an osteopath
:p

[Kitsune]

I have some pain in my right shoulder too and I discovered that it was not for or because of kendo, but because of the bag were I carry my uniform and all that... Maybe you should try another king of bag like one of those you carry on your back or see if your bag it really fits you.

[tango]

I'd like to correct my previous post about the guy in our class with the rotator cuff problem...

he has NOT had surgery...
apparently his doctor said that he needs to stay out of kendo for quite a bit of time... and now i don't recall if he said he would eventually need surgery or not.. but i think rotator cuff problems -- if you stay atheletically active -- probably always wind up having to be operated on.

[rottunpunk]

well, im not sure if it is tthe rotary cuff yet, but thats the most common one it seems. and if i have to have surgery, atleast ill have a mark to show my hurtiness-i just feel like a hypocondriac at the moment, especially since my knees are knackered too ;)
basically, 4 years ago i stopped everything, iai, kendo, and most things which required extending my arm, for several months because the pain was so bad, i dont even remember straining it.
i never went back to kendo, and i could hardly hold a niten bokken for iai at one point.
ive built some strength back up in it, but it still hurts like crazy. and as the acupuncture did nothing i figured it was time to get a specialist.
havent had chance to make an appointment yet though. ill let you know how it goes though, and thanks for the advice.
:p

[burger boy]

just to share my experiences here, i've been dealing with a rotator cuff injury since november, it has gotten worse even with staying out of the dojo, and rehab and specialized shoulder/cuff stretches & exercises haven't helped a bit. It's looking as though I'll need surgery if I ever want to get back to class.

[rottunpunk]

hmmn. thats what i found. i spent a week without iai last week, and no aiki either, and im sure it felt worse, though doing these things aggrivates it.
i hope yours gets sorted burger boy.
let us know how you get on.
:p

[GreenArrow]

i noticed green arrows back, so maybe she can help with this, but id like other peoples opinions too.

ive had a shoulder problem for 4 years. i think i did it in kendo, but it could have been something else.
anyways, my archery teacher said it sounds like a common archery injury, where the rotary cuff or suspratinatus? is damaged.
im looking for a decent osteopath. but can anyone recomend someone whos speciality is in this stuff?
and is it likely to recover after 4 years? or will it need surgery?
ive tried total, and partial rest, and sports massage, and homeopathy, and acupuncture, and stretch it many times during the day...and ive seen 3 gp's, the closest i got to treatment from them was being put on a 26 week nhs physio waiting list that i was still waiting on after 54 weeks
cheers for any advice...again
:p

I can recommend a very good chiropracter in Cardiff... private practise only though.

Seriously, if you want decent treatment it'll cost you, try getting to see a specialist in sports medicine idealy in swimming/archery- you GP should be able to help find someone expert in the field in your area, be persistent. Treatment will depend on details of your condition, and you really need a specialist.

You'll also find out what is "normal"- like I have a "clunk" when back-rotating my right shoulder due to specific muscle development in the rotator cuff from drawing a compound bow of 50# peak weight. Apparently swimmers get same too (but in both shoulders).

Your archery coach should also be able to help, although be aware that GNAS coaches do a limited amount of physiology- until they get to Regional Coach level. But if you ask your coach, (s)he can go up the GNAS coaching system and maybe hlep you find a medical practitioner?

Just be careful of the kendo/archery balance. I have suspended Kendo during the summer, as the muscle changes were becoming counterproductive to my shooting form... quite an issue when shooting a full Hereford or FITA round most weekends.

Also be careful of NHS physios- I know some guys who've had issues there, it can be pot luck getting a decent one. If you want more info, send me a PM- I've been a bit off-line 'cos I'm shooting our days a week and tournaments, as I say it's tournament season, but I do pick up PMs. I will also be entering the DNAA FITA Star at Killingworth on 26th August, so you may even catch me there in person if you want a chat.

Hope that helps and keep to a light bow!

Regards,

GreenArrow.

[rottunpunk]

cheers green arrow.
thats very helpful.
ill pm ya now
:p

[Whitemirror]

Is this a crybaby help me im hurt forum, or a sympathy my shoulder hurts because im such a hard training warrior forum,,, stop whining dude,,, you think war vets start there own lil crybaby forum about shrapnel in there arse........no

[rottunpunk]

dear everyone
i apolologise profusely if it sounds like im whining about my shoulder,
as opposed to seeking advice and practitioner recomendations from people who know the art in which i got my injury and could help be more than my gp. :D
:P

[Ignatz]

Is this a crybaby help me im hurt forum, or a sympathy my shoulder hurts because im such a hard training warrior forum,,, stop whining dude,,, you think war vets start there own lil crybaby forum about shrapnel in there arse........no
Oh Thomas, when will you ever learn? I think you will be gone now.

[Whitemirror]

Can I please issue a parlay??

[rottunpunk]

on a thread about shoulders?
if you spell it right...maybe
:p

[neko]

surprise, surprise! you know, normally i stay out of this sort of crap, but dammit i am sick of coming to these forums and finding you here whitemirror. you have been here for a total of 2-3 days and have contributed nothing. do you think that these forums are your personal playground?! and why do you put in your bio that you do kendo?!! i doubt that you have ever done kendo. and dropping abe sensei's name like you did earlier, will convince no one!

please for the love of kendo, will someone IP ban this arsehole!

[pgsmith]

rottunpunk,
Does your shoulder bother when moved a certain way, when slept on, or just generally all the time. Does it pain at a certain range or position? Do you get weakness at extension?

We'll pin it down for you yet! :)

[rottunpunk]

yay, thanks pg, much appreciate your time in this one
ok hear goes
-it hurts all the time.
-main areas are in the base of the skull
on the top (think its the suspraspinus (sp) where theres a knotty type lump
and in/under the shoulderblade area.
-then theres general achy down the upper part of the arm, and all over the lower back.
-the pain gets worse during extended use of pretty much anything.
eg. chopping hard (or soft) veg, sanding wood (even with the arm close into the body), pulling pints, and extending it out (eg doing noto or holding a shinai in chudan kamae)
-and repetative motions, (eg doing lots of nukitsukes)
-it hurts in the chest and back when i breath in fully
-and holding it out even for a short time (though i think im a bit better than i was) makes my whole arm feel achey (like when you hold them up for too long and all the blood/oxygen runs out)
-occassionally i get a tingly sensation down the outside edge and in the little finger aswell
- im constantly stretching/rubbing/gracking my back (by twisting at the waist) to try and loosen it
...think thats about it :D
:p
to sleep, i lay ontop of the arm, as ive found this to be the most comfortable position

[pgsmith]

Hey rottun,
I am NOT a doctor, although I used to play one when I went picking up women in my youth, so any thoughts are strictly non-professional. I have dealt with my own shoulder and back problems as well as had a few come through the dojo. My first thought on it is that you've neck problems rather than back problems. Having misaligned vertebrae, or a bulging disc can result in pretty much what you are describing depending upon what nerves it irritates. My second thought is rotator cuff problems. If you have a tear in the rotator cuff, it can get folded into the middle of the joint. This can cause misalignment which can result in the symptoms you describe. I know an excellent orthopaedist that could get you fixed up in no time, if you lived in Texas. :)

You sound like you definitely need to have some test run by a professional.

[Ignatz]

I think you need to have an MRI done on your chest area.

[Neil Gendzwill]

My mom had a sore arm/shoulder that turned out to be a disk thing in her neck. This could be nearly anything though, we're none of us qualified to diagnose it. Seek professional help.

[rottunpunk]

hmmn.
thanks pgsmith
i think i need xrays and stuff.
texas is further away than cardiff. but thanks anyways for the tip.
going to scotland for the weekend but i need provisions, so i might as well talk to some of the places in town tommorrow. then it can be fixed and i can do kendo again :D
did some more sanding today, though mainly with my left arm(the good one), and doing different stuff and im still feeling it :(
thanks again for everyones help and listening to my whinging.

incidently did the doctor trick work on the ladies?
:p

[rottunpunk]

oh, and thanks ignatz and neil, you sneeked in before me.
definately needs some pictures and a decent doctor dude
:p

[PhilMcLaughlin]

oh, and thanks ignatz and neil, you sneeked in before me.
definately needs some pictures and a decent doctor dude
:p

you need specialist help from an experienced sports physio / doctor whatever

i am lucky to have a great sports physio locally (but thats not much help for you unless you want to call him and see if can make a reccomendation) and a doctor experienced in sports medicine

ask about the doctors you have access to - gps are just that- no dis respect - they are gps

for instance my doctor is the chief med officer for the volvo ocean race so i feel confident in talking to him about sailing issues (not so different as might think)

ask about - PM me if you ant contact details for my physio (south coast Uk)


good luck getting sorted

[rottunpunk]

cheers phil. pm sent.
got an appointment with the sports injury clinic on monday. so hopefully this thing will get sorted.
:p

[pgsmith]

got an appointment with the sports injury clinic on monday. so hopefully this thing will get sorted.

Yea!!!!!!

If you get pictures taken, post them! :)

[Awooga Guy]

cheers phil. pm sent.
got an appointment with the sports injury clinic on monday. so hopefully this thing will get sorted.
:p

Good luck RP, hope you get it sorted :)






That is all.

[rottunpunk]

why do you have a naked shoulder fetish? :D
ts costing £20 for the initial interview thingy so theyd better give me pictures, and a lolly
cheers awooga, so do i
:p

[GreenArrow]

Hey rottun,
I am NOT a doctor, although I used to play one when I went picking up women in my youth, so any thoughts are strictly non-professional. I have dealt with my own shoulder and back problems as well as had a few come through the dojo. My first thought on it is that you've neck problems rather than back problems. Having misaligned vertebrae, or a bulging disc can result in pretty much what you are describing depending upon what nerves it irritates. My second thought is rotator cuff problems. If you have a tear in the rotator cuff, it can get folded into the middle of the joint. This can cause misalignment which can result in the symptoms you describe. I know an excellent orthopaedist that could get you fixed up in no time, if you lived in Texas. :)

You sound like you definitely need to have some test run by a professional.

Agreed.

I damaged my upper spine in a road accident, only went to the chiropracter I go to now when I started getting shoulder pain in archery... my coach thought it could be rotator cuff, he recommended this chiropractor as he has archery experiency (does Kendo too). Turns out it was spinal problems causing pain referenced to shoulder/arm/fingers. Yes, he fixed it too.

So yes, try find a decent medical practicioner, I have noticed that chiropracters and osteopaths tend to be better for bone and muscle injuries that "conventional" medicine, and I believe that you can get them on NHS if you're persistent enough.

Good luck!

[rottunpunk]

just a quick update
i went for my 1st appointment to the sports injry clinic today.
apparently i have a trapped nerve or few. which is tightening things up and causing the tingling/coldness in the hand...

so much spine cracking (didnt know i had that many bones in my neck, let alone the rest of the back)
and some manipulation later...it still hurts.
but when he was moving it around i did notice some loosening already.
i have some daily exercises to do, and am going back for another go on friday.

he didnt take any pictures though :(
it hurt so much during the seminar at the weekend i was going dizzy-so hopefully thisll sort it.
:p

[Ignatz]

apparently i have a trapped nerve or few. which is tightening things up and causing the tingling/coldness in the hand...
Is this a real doctor or one of those chiropractors? How many chiropractors does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Just one, but he has to come back 17 times. (unless the lightbulb gets broken in the meanwhile in which case it wasn't his fault)
How, I might ask, did this fellow come to this diagnosis. Does he have magic hands?
What was it that caused this tightening? Did it just happen? Is he just treating the symptoms or is there some plan for correcting the cause? Lots of things can cause the spine to "trap a nerve" most of which cannot be fixed by yanking the spine straight.

There is an old saying that when your only tool is a hammer all of your problems soon start looking like nails. Chiropractors only have one tool and in certain. limited cases, it is a good tool but you need a good diagnosis of the cause.
Otherwise you might as well go to a witch doctor.

[rottunpunk]

hmmn.
he moved me around a lot and prodded my back, neck and shoulder
i take your point ignatz. and also considering the things you pm'd me about.
so im going to join a doctors here (ie darlo) tommorrow, but also keep the appointment at the physio thing to 'see how it goes' as i am a lot looser than i was just yesterday.
but how do i go about finding a specialist, or even go for xrays/scans?
the only xrays ive had were taken from being in a&e.
do i just ask the gp for them? last time i asked a gp to see a specialist was when i got put on that nhs physio waiting list-which is really not what i wanted.
:p

[Ignatz]

You probably should go to an orthopedic doctor. They do bones and the spine is a bunch of bones. The GP usually has to do a referral so if you ask the GP why would he not do it?

[rottunpunk]

hmmn. they should. but gp's are a bit hit and miss here sometimes
ill have a proper search tommorrow.
thanks for all your help ignatz. your ace :)
:p

[Alison2805]

If a chiropractor has done his job properly there should be NO added pain afterwards. They are also supposed to take X-rays and do a bunch of tests before they even touch you. I went to the head of the chiropractic association for this state and he was brilliant. He reckoned if the chiro doesnt tell you to get x-rays - RUN AWAY!! Otherwise they are flying blind.

[rottunpunk]

heyo
just thought id do a quick update.
i cancelled my last appointment with the sports injury clinic place. they were really good, and its the darlo fc football physio place which is highly rated...
anyhoos, i finally got my chiropractor money off my dad and booked in their instead (hence cancelling the other place.)
i have lots of pretty coloured pictures from his american lady speaking compuitor.
it turns out my pelvis is/was misaligned, so causing upper pain such as the shoulder.
as i cant scan the pics i'll tell you what they say. instead of even and normal, my back and spine are all over the place.
static emg scan - i have abnormal muscle activity on the left hand side at c3 c5 t4 t6 t8, and on the right at c5 t2 t4 t8 t10 t12 and more severe at t6. t8 downwards are some of the muscles we need to cut, hence mine looking wierd evidently
- muscle balance scan - on the left, mild at c3, and on the right, mild at l3 and l5, moderate at c1 and t10 and severe at t12 and l1
- thermal scan to show nervous system impairment. severe at c1, moderate at t9 and mild at t3 t4 t7 t8 t10 t11.
the c's go from the base of the skull, the t's go from the top of the shoulders down and the l's are the lower back

i dont know if that means anything to anyone, but im so glad ive finally got proof on paper to show for my discomfort. cant believe its taken me this long to get started though.

the nervous system impairements i have effect the things like lungs, headaches and dizzyness and stomach pains (didnt even think they were related) so i might hold off the mri scan for now if thats ok ignatz.

hes working from the bottom of the spine up, so things should stay more in place, and he doesnt do any spine cracking.
he did some trepanning on me with this wierd acupressure thingy though

to be honest, i still dont feel any different, but it is like a 4 year old thing ive had. i have another appointment next tuesday. so lets see what the scans will look like after a whole 3 days of iaido eh?
:p

[Awooga Guy]

Bloody hell RP, good luck with it all.

Keep us posted. The Smutty Samurai are with you :)







That is all.

[rottunpunk]

hehe, cheers awooga.
it looks as though it isnt half as bad as what other people suffer with
so i should stop whinging on about it.
stocked up on the codien for the weekend
yey lots ant lots and lots of iai-y goodness
:p

[Mokujin77]

Sounds like you've been having a rough time of it!

I've knackered my back in the past and it took an osteopath to sort me out. If you are considering seeing an osteopath, it might be worth checking if they are registered here:

http://www.osteopathy.org.uk/

Hope that helps.

[rottunpunk]

just found your two day old reply sorry.
thanks for the link, i will make a note of it.
ill give the chiropractor a bit longer first, ive only had two sessions so far
:p

[iceman_213]

Hi guys, I'm all new to this and I don't do any type of Kendo/Martial Arts or anything but I was Googl-ing trapped nerves and stumbled across this, so I decided to join and get your advice (cuz you seem like very helpful people!)

I think I have a trapped nerve right on the shoulder, its only been a few months now but sometimes I get really sharp pains.

I also have (lower) back problems and a knot near/below my right shoulder blade from a road traffic accident which at times can be excruciating! :( This was almost 2yrs ago now, I've had private and NHS physio (which sucks!) and acupuncture aswell, they helped in the initial stages in reducing the pain but it has never completely been sorted.

RP Where are you based if you dont mind me asking as I wouldnt mind getting a reccomendation from your chiro (if you can provide me with a phone no. or something?

Cheers

[rottunpunk]

mines still not sorted, but ive only had 4 sessions with this chiropractor.

where abouts do you live?
http://www.beneficialchiro.com/ is the one i go to, though others on here can recomened good ones in other areas of britain.

good luck with getting it fixed.
:p

[iceman_213]

I'm in the northwest, preston to be precise. Thankx for the website, i'm checking it now.

[rottunpunk]

preston aye?
are you associated with the dog and partridge at all?
i didnt see any chiropractors in preston, as the gp's all fobbed me off
i found the sports therapy clinic at the uni to be the most useful massage type. though it didnt fix my problem, my back was looser for longer than with any other type of massage therapy.
i think it was in greenbank building.
:p

[iceman_213]

not really no, i dont drink at all so i dont really go into the pubs n stuff. Was the uni's clinic cheaper since they are still practicing or do they have fully qualified staff there?

[rottunpunk]

i think it was £12 for the initial thing, which is with the qualified person, then its free.
after the qualified dude shows the student what to do they do the treatment, but under his supervision. the student i had was in her final year, and was pretty good.
initial price varies depending whether you are a student, staff member or not affiliated with the uni at all.
it has to be a sports injury aswell, so if it isnt sports related, just say it was anyways.

if the chiro in the link (dr mccann) can refer you to someone, that might be the best route

the d&p is on friargate, and do good cheap food and orange juice (i used to work there)

incidently, if you are interested in starting kendo, http://www.doshinkenyukai-kendo.org.uk/ train at deafway and are excellent. theres also a good aiki dojo at strettles.
:p

[iceman_213]

Cheers pal! I play alot of footy and like to keep fit, plymetric training, jogging etc, but I'm not superfit, Kendo is something I'd like to try but it just never interested me as much as say muy thai, (not tried that either but i went to one training session when i was in canada!!)

Is it expensive? Cant do much at the mo though cuz i'm really busy, i'm fasting for the whole month, so in 3-4 weeks i might just check Kendo out!

[rottunpunk]

its cheap as chips, apart from the bogu, but they have club sets, and you wont need one right away.
the shoulder may cause problems though, so it may be best to weait till thats sorted first, but theres nothing wrong with going to watch first
good luck, and have fun.
:p