Haso or waki?

[Dragon Ninja]

I'm sure many of you have seen jodan used in shiai.

I wondered if anyone here has seen haso no kamae, wakigamae, or even gedan being used--and how they executed the strike. I heard there's one guy that uses haso o_O

[Dr. Hellsing]

i don't think they're legal...r they?

[Dragon Ninja]

i don't think they're legal...r they?

I'm pretty sure it is, because I did hear of a person using haso...

[Mokuso]

I use hasso and waki when I get bored or playing around.
but in shiai I wouldn't.

[ender84567]

use the search button, this has been discussed a million times, and i'll keep my other 2 cents to myself

[Kitsune]

Someone has some pics of it?

[Martino]

The mechanics of moden Kendo, has made these kamae obsolete (gedan to a lesser extent).

You could uses them in shiai, but as attacks execuled from these stances would take longer to execute or not appear as stong as cuts from Chudan or Jodan.

They are situational stances and those situations do not occur in shiai (low roof, long/short/broken weapon ). Also target areas for these stances are not included in moden kendo(neck/shoulder, upwards slash to do).

[manjisan]

I mainly see and hear people use Haso no kamae when a person goes into jodan. It is a little useful at that point because your arm blocks most of the hittable Do and you can still use quick wrist movement for blocking or hitting a high left kote when the oppertunity presents itself.

[MikeW]

I know people that go to gedan as a move to entice their opponent to attack. Not all the time of course but on occasion.

[yoda-waza]

Sport kendo has only a tenuous connection to combat-style kamae. That's why you'll almost never see the latter used in the former.

[The great I AM]

I mainly see and hear people use Haso no kamae when a person goes into jodan. It is a little useful at that point because your arm blocks most of the hittable Do and you can still use quick wrist movement for blocking or hitting a high left kote when the oppertunity presents itself.But you are also gifting your men and both kote to your opponent. On a silver platter.

[ScottUK]

I remember a friend of mine (who is more experienced than 99% of posters on here) tell me once about dropping into gedan - and when his opponent attacked he sidestepped & hit him with a katate (migi) tsuki.

I'd like to have seen that, but I don't fancy trying it... :)

I'll stick to chudan for a few years, I think...

[Jearom]

Not long ago, I saw a beginner gripping his shinai with his left hand in front of the right during a shiai.
He was fighting a team mate of his, another beginner who didn`t take advantage of the fact that the guys kote was wide open.
And when his opponent assumes migi-jodan, the leftie assumes hasso.
But hasso on the right side, therefore opening up his kote even further.
Can you picture this?
A weird moment in kendo!

[Shazzanzzz]

I remember a friend of mine (who is more experienced than 99% of posters on here) tell me once about dropping into gedan - and when his opponent attacked he sidestepped & hit him with a katate (migi) tsuki.

I'd like to have seen that, but I don't fancy trying it... :)

I'll stick to chudan for a few years, I think...

Why do u need to sidestep to tsuki?

[shred_lord]

Think of it as men-nuki-tsuki

[ChaShu]

Played and watched a sensei at last Saturday's practice take hasso during jigeiko and I have to say that he was quite effective at it, at least with me and some of the other matches that I was able to see. He was switching between chudan, jodan, and hasso and I have to say, the hasso was probably the most confusing as it is very rare. He did teach me some pointers should anyone else I play go into that kamae though. Very educational. I really appreciated doing jigeiko with him. BTW, interesting link from Halifax Kendo on kamae: http://www.halifaxkendo.org/kamae.html

[Shazzanzzz]

Think of it as men-nuki-tsuki

you don't need to side step for men-nuki-tsuki. Sidestepping makes it a lot tougher considering the arms will be there and I would imagine it would be harder to hit the target.

[ScottUK]

Shazz, don't worry yourself about this. It's a technique from a koryu... not kendo.

[ne0r]

I've seen Kumdo-pics and I think they use katate tsuki...

[ender84567]

I mainly see and hear people use Haso no kamae when a person goes into jodan. It is a little useful at that point because your arm blocks most of the hittable Do and you can still use quick wrist movement for blocking or hitting a high left kote when the oppertunity presents itself.

would be bad i think and leave gyaku-doh open as a target, and even if aite misses gyaku do the usualy reaction to try and move to block it leaves your kote open (assuming i'm visualizing what your describing correctly)

[Neil Gendzwill]

I mainly see and hear people use Haso no kamae when a person goes into jodan. It is a little useful at that point because your arm blocks most of the hittable Do and you can still use quick wrist movement for blocking or hitting a high left kote when the oppertunity presents itself.I'm thinking all you're doing from there is exposing the primary jodan targets of men and kote even more. I find hitting doh from jodan very difficult so frankly if you cover it up I don't care. I'm no jodan expert though, this is just what I feel from experimenting with the kamae a little.

Most people who are aware defend with either seigan or kasumi. I find kasumi the most difficult to deal with. I think Tenkan said somewhere that he doesn't find it that bad but he's a jodan specialist and a very good one.

[nebosuke]

Yamasaki sensei from Pasadena uses hasso in shiai.

[JoonShik]

Yamasaki sensei from Pasadena uses hasso in shiai.
I saw that at the North/South Tournament. It was pretty kool.

[Awooga Guy]

Here's a link to some footage of Awooga Guy's flatmate in chudan vs Rookie M from this very forum in hasso. It's just a a little play around in free practice.

http://www.speedyshare.com/707326614.html

That's a .3gp clip, filmed with Awooga Guy's camera phone. However it should run in Quicktime or RealPlayer. Awooga Guy hopes you all enjoy it :)



That is all.

[ScottUK]

'twas very good. Seems like a limiting kamae though...

[Awooga Guy]

It's ok, Rookie's only got a limited brain :)



That is all.

[Rookie M]

Limited brain maybe, but do not underestimate my slightly less limited boot and the beautiful pattern it would make on the back of your limited trousers.

That is all, indeed.

[Awooga Guy]

Awooga Guy loves you really Rookie :)

And he thought your hasso looked cool.



That is all.

[debiru]

Hasso, waki, chudan, jodan, gedan: all are "legal" in shiai. But for obvious reasons experienced shiaisha usually use chudan or jodan.

The only time I ever go into gedan is when I have problems against a jodan guy, I am out of ideas, and I want to try something new to get him off balance. Since jodan-chudan doesn't involve any "tip-to-tip-action", jodan players need to see the kensen in order to properly judge the distance, and by assuming gedan this might be a bit more difficult (at least that is what my fellow jodan players have told me after I have had jigeiko with them, I wouldn't really know since I am a chudan kind of guy...). It is also harder for the jodan player to see what happens with the shinai down there, and you might be able to "accelerate your shinai" and throw in a big ol' men before he does the same to you. I only use this in jigeiko though, and usually it works quite well.

Jearom: Yea, I remember that shiai... It wasn't a weird moment in kendo, it was a sad moment for kendo... It wasn't even kendo... It was just plain stupid...

[JSchmidt]

Since jodan-chudan doesn't involve any "tip-to-tip-action", jodan players need to see the kensen in order to properly judge the distance

Erh?. One of the things you quickly learn in jodan is to *not* use the opponents shinai to judge distance, but instead look at the person instead.

Jakob

[Usagi San]

It is also harder for the jodan player to see what happens with the shinai down there, and you might be able to "accelerate your shinai" and throw in a big ol' men before he does the same to you.

Hum?... Sorry, maybe I didn't get it, but to advocate the use of gedan against jodan seems like perfect suicide to me. :ermm:
One of the advantages of jodan versus chudan is that the jodan player "only" has to lower his arms to strike men, for instance.. He is already... ready.
How can you "throw in a big ol' men before he does the same to you"?
How can you be quicker then him if you lower your arms (even more) to gedan?
Maybe my english betrayed me again? :o

[egtirello]

... but to advocate the use of gedan against jodan seems like perfect suicide to me.

that's right, by doing that you're putting a neon sign in your men that says hit me, even in chudan takes time to counter a men that comes from jodan, can't imagine if you're in gedan,
I wonder how many men can get a gedan player before he can raise his arms, 2 or 3? maybe more ?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Awooga Guy loves you really Rookie :)

And he thought your hasso looked cool.It wasn't really a full hasso as his hands were in the middle and the shinai was almost horizontal rather than slightly angled back. I think from that position you'll be hard put to generate any real speed in your attacks.

[Rookie M]

The whole Hasso thing is sort of a little extra-curicular study on my part, so any advice or suggestions from other people who have tried it would be great. I would also apprieciate advice from the Jodan players out there regarding footwork/seme and waza that work well from an elevated position.

From Neil:
"It wasn't really a full hasso as his hands were in the middle and the shinai was almost horizontal rather than slightly angled back."

This was in responce to feedback saying that when i am in a kamae closer to the kata kamae my tsuki and do feel more vunerable. Any comments or advice greatfully recieved.
Cheers

[Ookami7]

Once in a while I will try out gedan kamae in ji-geiko. Usually this is against a slightly lower level student that tends to come in aggressivly and then dosn't go back to tip to tip distance. So gedan throws him off a little bit. I usally bring it up into a small kote. Either that or tsuki / hold chudan no kamae. However in a taikai or shiai, I would play it safer. I've also practiced with assuming Jodan when he takes jodan. Waki kamae though I wouldn't trust in a keiko match. However I think ever other kamae could be used if the kenshi is familar with how to attack with it. Anyways my 2 cents.
mata, Ookami yori / Jeff

[a.hong]

I just thought I'd throw in that a kenshi at the dojo that I attend uses Waki sparingly. Maybe for the fun of it, but I hear that he has trained extensively with different kamae and nito.

In case you're interested, he likes to use katate waza from Wakigamae.

[Andou]

Wouldn't katsugi waza sort of be considered as going into hasso for a little bit? Even if it is an after-product of a nuki waza. And I know that some people go into a sort of rapid switch from gedan to chudan as a seme to entice an attack on their men. From what I've seen anyway.