Middle East again

[Kitsune]

Is it going to end some day?

[samurai999]

Not as long as there is religion involved.

[Metsuke]

Is it going to end some day?

One day the world will end. Also the oil in the middle east will run out eventually, then most western powers will no longer have vested interests in the region. I like to hope that conversion of vehicles to ethanol or some other alternate renewable fuel source, will help us western nations to stay out of the political arena of the region. Sadly that would leave Israel on their own, but I have issue with defending any nation committing acts of terror.

Matthew Denton said in a forum I was reading that, People in Palestine and people in Israel both suffer, both are victims while both must share responsibility for this horrible epidemic of violence for they can't see the common humanity they both share. I believe the epicenter for the entire scourge of terrorism is Israel and Palestine and this war will not end until peace forged between these two people.

For all our little differences, our commonalities are far more important. We cannot dehumanize another without dehumanizing ourselves. If you can't see the value of another's life then we admit there is no value to our own.

This war must end as soon as possible for many are going to pay the price, a price that is far to high.

And I feel he makes a valid point. Some Palestinians support suicide bomber attacks in the heart of Israel, they cannot see the value in the lives of the people they perceive as their enemy. So Palestinian zealots attack Israel, and Israel responds with a military attack against Palestine but this only continues the violence which claims many lives. Attack and counter-attack, an endless cycle that will not be broken until one side stops the violence.

Terror is terror, these are people who have been in the region as long or longer than the Jews, I don't like my next door neighbor, but I don't send suicide bombers to his house, or send out air strikes destroying half of our neighborhood. I know this is an extravagant example, but the core point stands, they need to learn to get along, how long before this turns into an ethnic cleansing, or acts of genocide begin to occur? You would imagine that with WWII so close in memory and the Nazi solution to ethnic diversity, Israel would be a bit more sensitive on this issue trying to resolve this in a better way. In my opinion if Israel wants to maintain the Moral High Ground (so to speak) then they need to practice what they preach. I understand that the situation requires response, but this is a very unbalanced conflict with Israel wielding a modern army, and air force, what does Palestine have to counter Israel militarily? It's like farmers fighting Samurai, so what can they do? Exactly what they do, they fight with what they have.

I don't think either side has any moral high ground to stand on anymore, they both have blood on their hands.

[Kitsune]

Not as long as there is religion involved.

Don't think religion has something to do with this this time, not all Palestinians are from islam. I think the problem is economic like Metsuke said.

[verissimus]

Not as long as there's oil involved.

I'm not too enthusiastic about ethanol either. As demand spikes, what then? Divert land from food crops to cash crops?

[samurai999]

Don't think religion has something to do with this this time, not all Palestinians are from islam. I think the problem is economic like Metsuke said.

no but it will turn into one as it escalates...

[Kitsune]

I have the same fear, but for now it's just oil and soldiers... You think US will do the same thing as in Irak?

[samurai999]

I have the same fear, but for now it's just oil and soldiers... You think US will do the same thing as in Irak?

I think the US's hands are tied on this one. We don't want to step the wrong way because giving blatant support to Israel (which i think is what will happen if we choose sides) will very likely give Al Qaeda the fuel they need to recruit more terrorists. In addition, we don't support Hezbollah and Hamas as they are on our terrorist groups list. The only thing we can do is to show verbal encouragement to get compromises from both sides.

[T.Lee]

i agree with W.

"What they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over,"

[Metsuke]

I'm not too enthusiastic about ethanol either. As demand spikes, what then? Divert land from food crops to cash crops?

No, some points about corn you might not know.
It dosen't require rotation of fields as often as other crops.
It requires less nuetrent rich soil.
Much like hemp (which also could be used to make a cleaner burning fuel sorce than petrlium) can grow in most any earth.
And one last thing, the US government pays subsadies here not to grow corn.

You think US will do the same thing as in Irak?
Honestly, most of the reason that Israel has the military machine they do, is in no small part because of the US. To choose to back anyone else now against Israel would be kind of like backing the Ayatollah Khomeini after spending so much time and money to support the Shah, who was in the US's eyes the lesser of two evils. Our support of Israel even when we know what they are doing is wrong is a large part of why the US is so unpopular in the middle east in the first place, well that and what our government will do to protect the oil supply.

Quote from Dune, "The Spice must flow" (just trade spice for oil and that's it in a nut shell)

[ahmed61086]

I am a Palistinian Muslim, lets just put that in the open so you can understand my posistion in this matter.

One thing is, you can't call the Palistinians and the Israelis as neighbors, this is a little rediculous. Let us go through the history a little bit. They Jews came to palistine as refugees with nowhere to go, so the Palistianian people took them in like brothers, and treated them as equals, not second class citizens. Then when these refugees got on their feet, they raped, murdered, and looted the palistian people. They took their country, their lives, and their pride.

Let us make a parable. The palistians were the houseowners, and the Jews were homeless. So the the Palistians took the homeless jews into their house, fed them, clothed them, gave them a Job, and then the Jews Murdered the Father in his sleep, raped the mother and daughters, then threw the sons out(and now the sons want justice). And then they took the house for themselves(while all the people in the neiborhood ignored it). So how could the Jews be considered the victims, or be called neighbors? They are illegally occupying a land which belongs to the Palistinians, and while doing so, make the palistians Second class citizens, and oppress and terrorize them everyday.

Sure, the israelis are suffering, but so do criminals when they go to prison. I know I am going to get flamed, but hey, the truth hurts.

The only way there will be peace in palistine, is if the palistinian people get their country back. Im sorry to say it, but the people wont be satisfied with any less.

[verissimus]

No, some points about corn you might not know.
It dosen't require rotation of fields as often as other crops.
It requires less nuetrent rich soil.
Much like hemp (which also could be used to make a cleaner burning fuel sorce than petrlium) can grow in most any earth.
And one last thing, the US government pays subsadies here not to grow corn.


Apparently not.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_989.cfm
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/12/06/worse-than-fossil-fuel/

Based on what I've read, ethanol can at best serve as a supplement to fossil fuel.

Furthermore, apparently corn isn't that great either, based on this interview (http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/21185/). Rather than quote the entire article, the relevant portion is the answer to the following question:

"You've taken a critical look at what you've called "the cornification of America." What do you mean?"

[Metsuke]

New ethanol plants (in Brazil at least) are built to recycle waste heat, which reduces their energy use by 50%. Every single technology that exists can be modified in similar ways - how do you think that Japanese car companies learned to make such fuel-efficient and reliable engines? It's called research and development investment - something the US government refuses to support. Regardless of Bush's lip service for political reasons, this Administration will never support alternatives to fossil fuels (note that Bush slashed the funding for renewable energy research right after he spewed forth about 'switchgrass'). Cheney's money is all in Big Oil investments - if US oil imports were to end, the entire structure of the global economy would change.
All too often, we see a one-sided debate when it comes to biofuels - and the fact is, biofuels are for transportation, and fueling cars and trucks in the US is very, very profitable. In Venezuela, gas costs 20 cents a gallon - here, we pay over $3 a gallon. Ever wonder why that discrepancy exists? It's called market manipulation, a very old trick of the oil companies.
The main points I see in your links are these in a nut shell

Link 1 argues that Arable land that would otherwise have been used to grow food would instead be used to grow fuel, and then fall back to the carbon-intensive argument which I will address in the next point. in states like CA, AZ, NV, NM, and TX we have deserts, we know how to build reverse osmosis plants, and can convert ocean water to fresh water, why not use this technology to irrigate these deserts and grow maze? Simple big oil will spend as much as it takes to keep this from happening, and then the environmentalist will chime in with cries of the destruction of the bald a$$ed badgers habitat, my response so what! If we continue to damage the atmosphere with all this co2 and other greenhouse gasses, we will all get to die with the bald a$$ed badgers , how do we stop the steadily rising temperatures, by ceasing to destroy the rain forests, and planting more plants, these are our planets lungs, no oxygen, no life, period.

Link 2, this one points out that organic fuels are the most carbon-intensive fuel on earth. Well carbon isn't particularly destructive, carbon dioxide now on the other hand traps the heat from the sun inside the atmosphere hence the term greenhouse effect, but what you seem to be missing the 800 pound gorilla in the room. What is the only natural thing on earth that takes in carbon dioxide and releases oxygen? You got it, plants. Carbon dioxide levels in out atmosphere are higher now than at any time life has existed on this earth. Why? A number of reasons, fossil fuels release carbon dioxide when they are burned, population levels are higher (thanks in no small part to modern medicine) everything that breathes air exhales co2, vast expanses of forests/rain forests are destroyed on a horrifying scale, so we are loosing the planets lungs which work in the opposite of the way ours do.

The third link is a forum, and if you had read more of the posts you might have found that, there are as many views on the subject as there are Chins on a circus fat lady. The facts of the matter are these, the glaciers are melting at an alarming rate because of global warming. One of the biggest reasons for global warming is that there aren't enough plants to compensate for the spike in co2 and other greenhouse gasses we have caused. At the rate the icecaps are melting we will see most coastal cities, and island nations will flood and the face of the earth is going to change forever. We depend on a certain amount of greenhouse gasses to keep this planet from freezing, but at the rate they are being created we are turning this planet into an oven, and it is slow roasting. Not to mention what damage the melting icecaps are going to do to our oceans as the saline content drops. These are not my theories, they are facts.

I do not support deforestation to produce maze/sugarcane or any other crops that can be converted to fuel sources, but there are lots of deserts all over the world, and the technology exists to irrigate them and grow these crops, that as a side benefit will at least help reduce the greenhouse gasses while they are living. The discovery channel had a very informative show on global warming, and all the scientists agreed that if something drastic isn't done soon we will see the effects of our inaction within our lifetimes.
I think the main thing that we have to remember is we didn't inherit this world from our parents, we are holding it in trust for our children.

As an afterthought some legitimate arguments were made as to the efficiency of "green fuels" and atomic power, however 80% of Germany's power comes from harnessing the wind, it seems to me this makes a pretty solid case.

Ahmed, you make some very valid points, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. Terms will have to be made in the middle east, one way or another.

[ahmed61086]

Ahmed, you make some very valid points, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. Terms will have to be made in the middle east, one way or another.


Of course termes must be made. But diplomatic terms most likely wont work long term, because the Jews will never agree to the what the palistinians want, and vice versa.

[F0cUzzzz]

I am a Palistinian Muslim, lets just put that in the open so you can understand my posistion in this matter.

One thing is, you can't call the Palistinians and the Israelis as neighbors, this is a little rediculous. Let us go through the history a little bit. They Jews came to palistine as refugees with nowhere to go, so the Palistianian people took them in like brothers, and treated them as equals, not second class citizens. Then when these refugees got on their feet, they raped, murdered, and looted the palistian people. They took their country, their lives, and their pride.

Let us make a parable. The palistians were the houseowners, and the Jews were homeless. So the the Palistians took the homeless jews into their house, fed them, clothed them, gave them a Job, and then the Jews Murdered the Father in his sleep, raped the mother and daughters, then threw the sons out(and now the sons want justice). And then they took the house for themselves(while all the people in the neiborhood ignored it). So how could the Jews be considered the victims, or be called neighbors? They are illegally occupying a land which belongs to the Palistinians, and while doing so, make the palistians Second class citizens, and oppress and terrorize them everyday.

Sure, the israelis are suffering, but so do criminals when they go to prison. I know I am going to get flamed, but hey, the truth hurts.

The only way there will be peace in palistine, is if the palistinian people get their country back. Im sorry to say it, but the people wont be satisfied with any less.


Well, I certainly see where you are coming from. The occupied territories are just that, occupied. People don't seem to understand that before the Jews occupied them they were occupied by Palistinians. Long, long, long ago this area was home to both. I'm sure Jews occupied the area before the country of Israel was founded after WWII, they just didn't have their own country. They were GIVEN a county that was carved out of Palistine and now (well for a while now) that that's not enough they just want to take more and they do. If just about any other country in the word (well at least one the us does business with) did the same thing Israel is doing, we would want UN sanctions and trade embargos...etc and possibly the US would go to war to stop it. When Israel does it the US government looks the other way.

I just wish the "terrorists" would understand that many US citizens don't agree with everything Israel does or our government for that matter. We may be "free" but that doesn't give us as much power as one would think. We elect our officials but they make the laws and decide when we go to war. To know why we don't stop them you have to know more about our political system and how it actually works. One poitician wants some good things and some bad and so does the next. We don't get to vote on every issue, just on who gets to decide.

I don't have time now, but this is the discussion everybody in the world should be CALMLY disucssing.

Thank you ahmed61086 for an inteligent and thought provoking post.

[KhawMengLee]

If you look at the situation now. Israel has a very very very well equipped army. They have tanks, mobile art., air support, navy and nukes. What do the Palestinians have? small arms and rpgs. How do you fight then? The USA supplies the Israelis very well. http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/19861/Mobile_Tactical_High_Energy_Laser.html (I like how its an American weapon platform but at the end of the clip it shows the Israeli army first and THEN the US army).

I think its very baised how the Palestinians are portrayed as suicide bombers and are the starters of the conflict because they hit 'innocent' civilians.

Hell, the Zionists during the formation of Israel(post WWII) were not opposed to bombing civilians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_terrorism

I am critical of how Israel would let settlers take Palestinian land in the past and then when the Palestinians fight back they are branded terrorists. I am critical of the one sided media portrayal of the Palestinians. Hell, I remember one incident where Palestinian kids were shot throwing rocks at Israeli tanks. I am critical how they tried to sell the world the failed deal they set with the Palestinians. They said, yeah, we are giving them back 80% of their land but still they refuse...yeah...the 80% with no water.

The one thing I really hate though, is how the holocaust is used as a weapon. I mean I am critical of Israeli Government policy not of Jews or their religion. But today, the minute you are critical of Israel, you are branded an Anti-semite...which I think is total bullshit.

[ahmed61086]

If you look at the situation now. Israel has a very very very well equipped army. They have tanks, mobile art., air support, navy and nukes. What do the Palestinians have? small arms and rpgs. How do you fight then? The USA supplies the Israelis very well. http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/19861/Mobile_Tactical_High_Energy_Laser.html (I like how its an American weapon platform but at the end of the clip it shows the Israeli army first and THEN the US army).

I think its very baised how the Palestinians are portrayed as suicide bombers and are the starters of the conflict because they hit 'innocent' civilians.

Hell, the Zionists during the formation of Israel(post WWII) were not opposed to bombing civilians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_terrorism

I am critical of how Israel would let settlers take Palestinian land in the past and then when the Palestinians fight back they are branded terrorists. I am critical of the one sided media portrayal of the Palestinians. Hell, I remember one incident where Palestinian kids were shot throwing rocks at Israeli tanks. I am critical how they tried to sell the world the failed deal they set with the Palestinians. They said, yeah, we are giving them back 80% of their land but still they refuse...yeah...the 80% with no water.

The one thing I really hate though, is how the holocaust is used as a weapon. I mean I am critical of Israeli Government policy not of Jews or their religion. But today, the minute you are critical of Israel, you are branded an Anti-semite...which I think is total bullshit.


Well said.

[samurai999]

I think both sides are wound up too tight. Its like if one side even touches the other, the other side throws a punch..

[Martino]

I am on your side as well ahmed61086.
But as long as the World Powers (politicians) are on Israelis side
And the media only shows half the story with ross coloured glasses...

...Palestinian are F__KED.

Like ahmed61086 said if somebody continusally gets beaten. The will eventually retaliate. We as the rest of the world are now trying to make them out as the bad guys because for the last 30-40 years the have been taken advantage of. Now they have said enough is enough.

The unfortunate thing is that even if tommrow Israelis return all the land and make a public appology. The hatread is so great people on both sides will be unable to stand down.

[bobdonny]

Lads this is about the leb?
Anyone catch the G.W Bush bit of dumass ;)
He was picked up by a nearby mic talking to Tony Blair about it! sWEET ;)

[ahmed61086]

I agree with you Martino. There is too much hatred, it would be hard to fix that issue.

[Martino]

G.W. Bush isn't the problem, it is all the back room boys that have kept him at the top (and are smart enough to stay hidden).

[Gregory]

I think that everyone is at fault a bit... however, I think the israelis were INSANE for thinking zionism would work... Honestly... how did Hertzl think it up?

"So man, listen to this, it's freaking crazy! We want a country right?"
"Ya!"
"So, how about we go into someone ELSES country, and take it over!?"
"What do you mean?"
"Well, we just go in, and assimilate slowly, until me make our own country!!"
"Wont they get angry?"
"Of course not!"

The problem with the media is it isnt, and has never been, unbiased. Suicide bombings arent the only things that happen. Palistinians attack the israelis with rocks, the israelis bomb the hell out of them.

Both sides need to chill the hell out. I am not going to fight in some war because both people refuse to comprimise (though, if I was in either position, I would most likely refuse to do so too).

Did anyone else notice that right when Sharon talked about creating Khadima, he sort of went into a coma?

[Niten Ninja]

Damn... you beat me to it. Zionism was a bad idea from the off.

[beinsteiner]

Balfour, bombs & busters

90 years later, same old story.

[bobdonny]

G.W. Bush isn't the problem, it is all the back room boys that have kept him at the top (and are smart enough to stay hidden).

No i meant this...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-17-bush-hezbollah_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA

Saw the footage on irish tv last nite ..... very funny and class GW ;)

This is what he said to Tony blair with his mouth stuffed full of bread over lunch, in a texas accent....


What they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, and it's over

[Niten Ninja]

"Originally Posted by Bush"

Never knew Bush did kendo;)

[Kitsune]

Been reading all this and the only thing I still don't get is why Israelies did what they did, I mean, Palestian people wellcomed them as theire brothers or they cousins (and if you analize this geneticly is quiete accurate) and they treat them like they were enemies, why? They're suppose to be the sons of Abraham as much as Israelies are too (that leyend in the Bible must have something of the truth)

Why they can't live in the same piece of land as brothers as branches of the same tree, why Israelies have to erase their own blood from the face of the Earth why? and why the rest of the world help them out?

[Metsuke]

Here is what confuses me, if you are in another dogs yard, and every time you walk by him you kick him. How the hell do you get mad when the dog tries to take your leg off? STOP F*CKING KICKING HIM, or Stop Crying! Sympathy only goes to those who deserve it. Way back when Moses led his people out of Egypt, these people welcomed them into that land, thousands of years pass and now we come to the early 20th century and these children of Moses are all over Europe, Germany looses it's mind and begins to attempt to wipe their race off the face of the earth. Now it must be pointed out that at the beginning of the Nazi reign, they actually attempt to send these disposed Jews to anywhere that will take them. The western nations eventually say enough, knowing full well the feelings of these national socialists, and what their next course of action will be yet they do nothing. 6 million or so die and the war ends and now the allies have millions of camp survivors, Europe is a great smoking ruin, and none of the western nations want this influx of Jews into their war torn nations. So how do the allies deal with the situation? They bring them back to the one place that ever made them welcome and didn't treat them like second class citizens, and establish the nation of Israel in the middle of another peoples country, then sell off all their surplus (the war was over they didn't need all that war material anymore, and it is a great way to keep a people in your pocket) so they sell them all the now unnecessary weapons (well we should say, unnecessary to the allies) to the people who are going to need them the most. Anyone wonder why all these Jews were in Europe in the first place and not in the nation they claim was given to them by God no less?? So now there is a nation of Israel again, and what happens? Now they begin to put the people who welcomed them into their land thousands of years before beneath their heel. Seems they learned a lot from the Nazi they want the entire world to bear the guilt of. Every time there inhumanity comes into the public eye, they play the Holocaust trump card. Thing is they weren't the only ones who suffered under the Nazi yoke, why aren't the Poles, or the Gypsies, the homosexuals, and the communists playing the same card? They have as much right and justification. Just an idea, but it seems they don't have to to create smokescreen to hide actions as unacceptable as the actions they are demanding financial reparations from. Anyone in their memory remember the Polish, or the Gypsies suing Volkswagen, and Krupp, they were used as slave labor too. Now they have fallen so far that they feel they can justify shooting children for throwing rocks at the tanks, "Tanks", that the Israelis put in their streets, in front of their homes. And they are morally superior to the Nazi, how???

Look I know this might sound very anti-semitic, but I'm not, I'm anti-bull$hit. I'm gonna call a spade a spade, period. The only reason the US keeps supporting them as for fear of loosing the entire region, lets say the US leaves them to their own devices, and all the Arab, and Persian people all decide on the same course of action, erasure of the nation of Israel and they succeed, then what? When my dad was stationed at the Libyan embassy, they would take over the embassy every few months, all the women and children would be sent home weeks before it happened, outdated intel. would be layed conveniently out, all current files would be removed or destroyed, and they would wait. In a few months the Marines would take back the embassy and things would go on as usually. If you've never lived there you couldn't understand what it is like there. We would be ousted from every Arab nation, or be at war again, but this time there would be no friendly airspace, or waterways. Yes we could take them, but how much blood would have to be spilled to keep them? Army's make lousy police, it isn't what they train for. So long as Israel stands the political climate there can be manipulated, and so long as big oil is king, that is how it is going to stay. I think it is high time to make them accountable for their actions, the UN is ineffectual and either can't, or won't do anything, I don't agree with why the US does nothing, but I understand. It has been mentioned that sanctions would be imposed on any other nation for committing the same actions, this would at least be a start. The Jews sue companies and financial institutions in Europe that they feel have wronged them, hit them where it hurts the most, their pockets. How do you put a dollar value on the victims of their "retaliations" I don't know, but as Israel said in the 50's it's a start. Germany was appeased in the 30's, how well did that work out? No I don't have the answers, but I know something has to be done. This ok, our bad mentality that has played out again and again doesn't cut it. Giving back 80% of the territory they seized, doesn't make it all better. If these are such respectable, honorable people why hasn't living conditions risen outside of Israeli cities? How do they dare seek sympathy from the world for actions committed more than 50 years before, when they don't stand much higher on the moral ladder now? Terms must be reached, and Israel must be held accountable for their actions. Committing acts of terror against civilians in retaliation for acts of a few dissidents is barbaric regardless who is committing them. I'm reminded of something my dad said about Vietnam, he said every time we killed a VC, we created 3 more. This isn't a Holy War, there are almost as many Palestinians Christians as there are Muslims, if it is thes Israel has declared war on Islam, and Christendom. Now that takes balls! It's not like they have the Buddhists in their corner either. Sorry Israel, there has never been a Buddhist Crusade, now will their ever be.

[rainmaker]

Let's say you are a teacher with beautiful wife and Kids you love dearly. You have a dream to make beautiful family. Someday, you want to buy a house and wants to see your kids to get married.. All of sudden, a bomb dropped at your house. You just witnessed your lovely family disappeard. Or even worse, you just saw your kids body torn apart to hundreds piece. Your dream just down the toilet with the bomb. And right next to that body, you saw a US flag on the missle...

This is just extreme case. But yes, there is very good possibility that you will hate Israel as much as US. If you knew who press that missile button, I am sure you can easily kill that SOB. But it is more than that. So many people involved for long time. So you will probably decide to hate all of them..

I wish them to move on. But it is not just about the religion anymore. It is not only about the oil. Is it okay for them to kill other innocent ? No. But you will at least understand how such extremist are made of..

War must be avoided. Blood will bring more blood. You might be able to make them quiet for now but eventually, it will bring more blood later on. Unless, you kill everyone so no one can revenge against you....

[Gregory]

I remember hearing an interview with a lebanese man on the news. He was talking about how at first, everyone (the majority) was angry at hezbollah because they did what they did. After the Israelis started bombing the shit out of them, the started not caring as much about hezbollah, and started hating the israelis.

Kudos to your "no negotiation" policy Israel!

[samurai999]

Been reading all this and the only thing I still don't get is why Israelies did what they did, I mean, Palestian people wellcomed them as theire brothers or they cousins (and if you analize this geneticly is quiete accurate) and they treat them like they were enemies, why? They're suppose to be the sons of Abraham as much as Israelies are too (that leyend in the Bible must have something of the truth)

Why they can't live in the same piece of land as brothers as branches of the same tree, why Israelies have to erase their own blood from the face of the Earth why? and why the rest of the world help them out?

Israel conceded the Gaza strip forcing their settlers to leave and put up a wall around their borders so that the terrorists would stay out. Palestine got what they want (or so it seemed) and the election of Hamas as the ruling party didn't help the country's image or relations with Israel. Like I said before, its like 2 kids in the playground about to fight. One touch and a punch comes from the other side.

Also religiously, I thought Jews and Muslims were pretty much battling over the same holy area for thousands of years. There are still tensions (at least from a documantary I saw a year back) between the hardline jewish and hardline muslim leaders about who the land should belong to. This is in addition to the fact that they don't want to share it..

[Niten Ninja]

Palestine got what they want (or so it seemed)

Not really, they got SOME of it. And what Palastinians want is probably not one thing.Some will probably want the total annialation of Israel while others will probably just want people to stop bulldozing their house.


and the election of Hamas as the ruling party didn't help the country's image or relations with Israel.

I don't think that was neccesarily a problem, before this present crisis Abbas managed to get Hammas to accept the existence of Israel. Also I don't think Hammas is a unified organisation. I'd question how much control their political wing has over the military.


Also religiously, I thought Jews and Muslims were pretty much battling over the same holy area for thousands of years.

Not really, Jews have only really recently taken up fighting there. For years it was part of the Ottoman Empire.

[Gregory]

Jews and Muslims were actually what I would call "Friends" before the whole Zionism thing started. I dont think any muslim person in that area "hates" jews, I just think that everyone would feel the same way. What Ahmed described is pretty much what happened.

Who here WOULDNT be angry if you saw a person being mugged on the street, let him stay with you until he got back on his feet, then woke up to find that he was screaming about how your house rightfully belonged to him because his great great grandfather lived there as a child?

Everyone here is willing to help anyone in need for as long as it takes, correct? The line is drawn when the person you are helping turns against you.

The anti-semetic people have used this as a way to spread the hate. It isnt because they are jews, they could have been americans. If they had done that, this STILL would be going on.

PS. The Koran specifically states that Moses and Jesus were both prophets. So all that stuff about muslims hating jews and christians is, in my opinion, a load of crap.

[Amir Barak]

How many of you guys have lived in israel, have been to israel, have fought, and watched your families die?

Other then Ahmed, whome I understand, is living in the Gaza strip, or another of the 'A' territories. Him being a Palastinian, I can understand having knowledge about the situation. Other then that, unless you have been to the region (for a time of over a week,) I hope you don't really believe that anything you think is actually worth a dime, right? you can form opinions based on others, and the media, and all that, but trying to learn from a book is a second hand experience at best, so I'd suggest to leave the lofty nobility of your ideology behind. Saying things like "they should get along" and the like is about as meaningful as a bag of peas to the moon...

Ahmed, if you really believe that explanation that you gave about family, and brothers, and all that, well then (and if I take it as an average belief in the Palastinians) it is quite clear to me why the region is in flames.

Oil has nothing to do with what is happening at the moment in Israel. Religion has little to do with the situation as well, it just serves as the carrot dangling in front of the (m)asses.

[Amir Barak]

Oh, and by the way, Wikipedia is not a source I would quote from if I were you guys. Been known to be somewhat less than reliable. :rolleyes:

[Niten Ninja]

Ahmed, if you really believe that explanation that you gave about family, and brothers, and all that, well then (and if I take it as an average belief in the Palastinians) it is quite clear to me why the region is in flames.

Could give your account of it?

[bobdonny]

How many of you guys have lived in israel, .....bla.....
just serves as the carrot dangling in front of the (m)asses.

Foreign policy and politics are for the politicians and GW over lunch :) :)
The internet and internet forums are for idle speculation and having a good rant ;)

If you dont like it, tough :evil:

[F0cUzzzz]

Oh, and by the way, Wikipedia is not a source I would quote from if I were you guys. Been known to be somewhat less than reliable. :rolleyes:

Ok, as an American it is easy to see we are poorly informed on many things and make poor dicisions from time to time. Many people in that area of the world are even more poorly informed and what kind of decisions do you think they make? We all gather information from places/people we know and trust. Here we have multiple sources (yes many of them are probably biased) and for many over there the source is your neighbor or area leader...etc. Fact of the matter is both sides only know what they are told and are only going to believe the people they trust. I believe MOST of the issues are actually caused by the spreading of misinformation on BOTH sides.

Everything we see over here seems to be biased towards Israel but a lot of us have no trouble reading between the lines to see that it is Israel to blame also. As Americans it is difficult to understand why they need to have control over the "Holy Land." Over here we put different churches accross the street from one another and wave at each other on our way in and out. Over there they toss bombs and fire rifles. We have a hard time understanding why it can't be "to each their own". I know this issue goes beyond religion but that's what it comes back to all the time.

I don't believe the people living in Israel or Palistine are better informed. I believe they see trajedy happen infront of them and they believe what ever they are told the cause was. After that its mob mentality bent on revenge and "justice" (whatever that means to them.) Think about it a little while and you will see that the chain of information is easily manipulated no matter how close you are to the events. History is writen by whoever wins the battles.

I understand that everybody stopping at the same time will never happen and that which ever side stops first will probably have to endure trajedy and hardship for a time after they stop. But, it has to start somewhere. On a religious note: both sides (and all goodly religions actually) have baiscally the same ideas on respecting your neighbor and following the golden rule (you kwow; Do onto other as you would have them do onto you.) The muslim way around this is Jihad, the Israelis claim self-preservation. Everybody has their excuse for violence but that's all it is.

[Amir Barak]

I couldn't agree more...
Violence is dumb, either way you look at it.

However, some sources of history can be relied on, it is not that difficult to find an intelligent read. Or, on that account, the raving of propogantic loons...
Try finding some accounts of the British's documents from the early 20th century, the three White Books (the last one written by Churchil I think) about the middle east, esp. Israel.
Also, like science, the question of land ownership falls in the end to dimensions of idealisation, nothing more.
Ask yourself a few questions if you want, the origin of the name Palastine for example, when did the regional people begin to look at themselves as a nation, why did the Jordanian king kick the Hezboallah out of Jordan...
As for "Brotherly love", tell that to the settlers of Petach-Tikva (who, incidentlly, purchased their lands legally) who had to repel arab attackers over a 100 years ago, the defenders of Tel-Hai, the 1949 call of the arab nations for the three No's, etc, etc...
Or why are we fogetting the Jewish people living in Jerusalem for the past 2000 years, or Hebron, or... da da da...
Plenty of places to look for if you're interested in the truth (or the most complete version one can manage) it is out there :P
I am not trying to rationalize the situation, nor am I implying that my country has the moral high ground here, but that's war for you - sucks other way you look at it. I have said it before, and I'll say it now, the real enemy of the Palastinians are Iran, Syria. And of course all those pathetic little terrorist groups that the arabs like so much... The best possiblity for the Palastinians is coop with Israel, not fighting, there's great potential for that region, if we could just ditch the extremists.

[Ignatz]

. . .Other then that, unless you have been to the region (for a time of over a week,) I hope you don't really believe that anything you think is actually worth a dime, right? . . .
When I read something like this my first thought is "Well, let's see what this person has to say, I'm very interested in his opinion."

Not

[Amir Barak]

and your third one?

[Moe-Swordsaint!]

Is it going to end someday?

Well... No, not until israel gives the palestinians back their country, and america stays the hell out of the middle east. And everyone saw this comming anyway, wether Hezbu Llah kidnapped those two or not.



I am a Palistinian Muslim, lets just put that in the open so you can understand my posistion in this matter.

One thing is, you can't call the Palistinians and the Israelis as neighbors, this is a little rediculous. Let us go through the history a little bit. They Jews came to palistine as refugees with nowhere to go, so the Palistianian people took them in like brothers, and treated them as equals, not second class citizens. Then when these refugees got on their feet, they raped, murdered, and looted the palistian people. They took their country, their lives, and their pride.

Let us make a parable. The palistians were the houseowners, and the Jews were homeless. So the the Palistians took the homeless jews into their house, fed them, clothed them, gave them a Job, and then the Jews Murdered the Father in his sleep, raped the mother and daughters, then threw the sons out(and now the sons want justice). And then they took the house for themselves(while all the people in the neiborhood ignored it). So how could the Jews be considered the victims, or be called neighbors? They are illegally occupying a land which belongs to the Palistinians, and while doing so, make the palistians Second class citizens, and oppress and terrorize them everyday.

Sure, the israelis are suffering, but so do criminals when they go to prison. I know I am going to get flamed, but hey, the truth hurts.

The only way there will be peace in palistine, is if the palistinian people get their country back. Im sorry to say it, but the people wont be satisfied with any less.

Very well said Ahmad, I completely agree with you and was about to make the same point...



Been reading all this and the only thing I still don't get is why Israelies did what they did, I mean, Palestian people wellcomed them as theire brothers or they cousins (and if you analize this geneticly is quiete accurate) and they treat them like they were enemies, why? They're suppose to be the sons of Abraham as much as Israelies are too (that leyend in the Bible must have something of the truth)

Why they can't live in the same piece of land as brothers as branches of the same tree, why Israelies have to erase their own blood from the face of the Earth why? and why the rest of the world help them out?

Simple... the israelies (or jews) think that they have full right to take that land from the palastinians because it was given to them by God, so they enter it with the help of the west (that just wants to dump them anywhere), and take it over by total force while beleiving that what they are doing is compleatly in their right as jews.



You might be able to make them quiet for now but eventually, it will bring more blood later on. Unless, you kill everyone so no one can revenge against you....

That their is Israil's exact strategy, they know the civilians arn't just going to stand idly by and watch their country being destroyed and people massacered. So they simply try to kill them all and call it their right to defend themselves of the "terrorists".



Jews and Muslims were actually what I would call "Friends" before the whole Zionism thing started. I dont think any muslim person in that area "hates" jews, I just think that everyone would feel the same way. What Ahmed described is pretty much what happened.

Who here WOULDNT be angry if you saw a person being mugged on the street, let him stay with you until he got back on his feet, then woke up to find that he was screaming about how your house rightfully belonged to him because his great great grandfather lived there as a child?

Everyone here is willing to help anyone in need for as long as it takes, correct? The line is drawn when the person you are helping turns against you.

The anti-semetic people have used this as a way to spread the hate. It isnt because they are jews, they could have been americans. If they had done that, this STILL would be going on.

PS. The Koran specifically states that Moses and Jesus were both prophets. So all that stuff about muslims hating jews and christians is, in my opinion, a load of crap.

And it also states in the Qur'an that Muslims should treat "ahl al-kitab" (It translates as "people of the book", meaning the Jews and Christians) as they treat each other and that there should be no enmity towards them for no reason.
But it also says in the Qur'an that when any people try to take a country belonging to Muslims it is the duty of any neighboring Muslim countries to defend the assulted country as if it was their own.

So whats happening in Israel is exactly that. Even though the Israilies are jews, what they are doing is not to be taken lightly by any Muslim (or Arab),,, In my opinion Hamas and Hesbu Llah are "freedom fighters" NOT terrorists... Hamas is freeing Palestine, and Hesbu Llah is freeing Lebanon because its own army is doing shit to repel the attack, and is also helping Hamas in its war with Israel.

And it states in the Qur'an that when at war with any people, you should not attack their civilians, but in some cases, like whats going on in lebanon and palestine where the israelies are killing innocents and taking homes, and the Israili people are backing it up 100% (about 90% or so of the Israili citizens) there should be an equal responce.


I'd just like to say that right now I beleive israel should be wiped off the face of the earth because of what it did and is doing. And i think there isn't going to be any peace with them until they find some other place to live in (thats never happening because they think its their devine right).

And if anything I said makes me an anti-samite, i'll assure you i'm not... I have nothing against jews.. but i do have everything against any jew or person regardless of religion that supports Israel.

But why is everyone concentraiting on who's anti-samnite and who's not,, the Israeli jews are mostly anti-muslim/christian/arab alltogether i dunno about everyone else here but thats what i see.

I think religion has a role in whats going on, but its only part of the whole picture (quite a large part at that).

[tattooedasshole]

Moe, don't lump all Jews in with the Zionists.

[KhawMengLee]

I'd just like to say that right now I beleive israel should be wiped off the face of the earth because of what it did and is doing. And i think there isn't going to be any peace with them until they find some other place to live in (thats never happening because they think its their devine right).

Dude, I think this is the kind of sentiment and statement that makes people brand Muslims as racists, terrorists, barbaric, etc. Arguing that the Palestinians should be allowed to defend themselves is fine. Stating points such as Israeli land grabbing attempts, settlers attacking innocent Palestinians(not reported very much or at all on CNN), etc basically using facts to support your argument is welcome.

But stating something like the above just makes you look like a racist and an idiot. You are better than that.


And if anything I said makes me an anti-samite, i'll assure you i'm not... I have nothing against jews.. but i do have everything against any jew or person regardless of religion that supports Israel.


Sorry...hehehe...but this is like a textbook statement I hear all the time. You know, when some politician wants to argue about Israeli Government Policy...and then a Jewish spokesperson will say, "You're an anti-semite!" and immediately the person will say 3 things:

1) No I'm not.

2) I have nothing against Jewish people.

3) I have lots of Jewish friends.

(Actually it applies to all races)

I got caught in this one before. I was arguing with one of my journalism tutors about this issue(he happens to be Jewish) and then he pulled the old anti-semite card...of course when he said that I replied "why? Because I disagree with Israeli Government policy? Hell, just because I don't agree with Blair's government, does that make me anti-anglo saxon? Or if I don't agree with China's Government that means I'm anti-chinese?"

Its not a question of race or religion moe...its about power and politics.

[Dufus]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Islam started in Medina, and spread b/c Muhammad and his followers conquered various countries, the Holy Land included, giving people the option to either convert to Islam or die.
They did give Jews and Christians the option to live as specially taxed 2nd class citizens instead, but still, their means of evangelizing were very terroristic.

Religion is very much involved, as both religions want their Holy Land. Even the Christians were fighting for it back in the time of the crusades.

As far as whose country it is, The Jews had it before the Muslims, just look back to the time of the Roman Empire. Heck, since the Romans had it at one point, maybe Italy should have it.

[KhawMengLee]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Islam started in Medina, and spread b/c Muhammad and his followers conquered various countries, the Holy Land included, giving people the option to either convert to Islam or die.
They did give Jews and Christians the option to live as specially taxed 2nd class citizens instead, but still, their means of evangelizing were very terroristic.

Religion is very much involved, as both religions want their Holy Land. Even the Christians were fighting for it back in the time of the crusades.

As far as whose country it is, The Jews had it before the Muslims, just look back to the time of the Roman Empire. Heck, since the Romans had it at one point, maybe Italy should have it.

Er...I think the Jews or the tribes of Israel were a people without a home or land once they fled Egypt. They were 'promised' a land by God (okaaaaay) and the land was modern day Palestine. The people living in the area were not known as muslims but nomadic beduin who later adopted Islam. So as far as who was there first...it certainly wasn't the Israelites.

[Moe-Swordsaint!]

Moe, don't lump all Jews in with the Zionists.

Sorry if I looked like I did, but I diddn't. I'm sorry if I offended you.



Dude, I think this is the kind of sentiment and statement that makes people brand Muslims as racists, terrorists, barbaric, etc. Arguing that the Palestinians should be allowed to defend themselves is fine. Stating points such as Israeli land grabbing attempts, settlers attacking innocent Palestinians(not reported very much or at all on CNN), etc basically using facts to support your argument is welcome.

But stating something like the above just makes you look like a racist and an idiot. You are better than that.

Hmm... Why should I not think Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth... Heh!! they are trying to wipe us out but are doing it slowly... They are allies with America (hence the hatred most arabs have towards America), which is an extremely powerful right-wing country and it (the US) helps them through all their troubles and woes by giving them advanced and universally illigal weaponery to use on those they are ocupying (Palestinians)
and later will ocupy (Lebanese, Syrian, whatever...). I dont think it makes me racist/terrorist/barberics as much as Israel is that i think they should perish...

Now to make another thing clear, I dont care if there is still an Israeli nation or not, as long as it isn't in our lands! I mean they come in and force the people that treated them like brothers to give up their lands or die! And even when some gave up their lands and some fought ALL were killed and tortured! Now tell me there people are humane or deserve any good and i'll tell you im janet jackson!

How can anyone accept that his country be raped by those he trusted, and in the end be given about 20% of what is rightfully his! Would any of you just stand and do nothing, or would you act and take back what is yours?!

THEY ARE THE TERRORISTS simple as that.

Thanks for the compliment btw. or was it?



Its not a question of race or religion moe...its about power and politics.

Im sorry, but I'll have to disagree with you on that. It is actually a matter of religion, power and politics put together, religion being the main motive. They took the Masjid Al-Aqsa and turned it into a jewish prayer place (dont know what they are called) and they have entered mosques and killed people in their prayers a few times, yet they made them count... And they beleive its their rightful holy land givin to them by god, hmm isn't that religion? It could have been anywhere else, like say Alaska, but they chose Palestine... That makes it obvious.

[Niten Ninja]

I'm probably rehashing what others have said, but I don't actually think looking for someone to blame is helpful. Both sides seem totally sure they're in the right, the blame game is not going to help anyone.


Er...I think the Jews or the tribes of Israel were a people without a home or land once they fled Egypt.

Hard to say, evidence of a slave race under the Eypgitians seems scarce, also according to dating from the Bible (apparently) Jericho at the time of the Exodus was inhabited by... goats... (apparently)


Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Islam started in Medina, and spread b/c Muhammad and his followers conquered various countries, the Holy Land included, giving people the option to either convert to Islam or die.

Not really, Christians offered Jews convertion or death, Islam offered the jews heavier taxes and second class citizenship... take your pick. Also Muhammad did end up in Jerusalem, Dome of the rock anyone?


They did give Jews and Christians the option to live as specially taxed 2nd class citizens instead, but still, their means of evangelizing were very terroristic.

I don't quite see your point anyway, you're talking about what happened centuries ago. How is that fair? If you want terroristical evanelisation (are either of thse words?) then look to good old Chiristian Europe.


The Jews had it before the Muslims

The problem is that Jews is both a group of people AND a religion, Islam is just a religion.

[Dufus]

The point I was trying to make is that it wasn't the Muslim's land first, no matter whoes it was. Saying that they deserve it more than anybody else just seems unfair. The problem seems to be that the people who want it want it all for themselves, and are more than willing to use violence, which from my understanding is opposed by both religions involved

[ahmed61086]

I realy wanted to stay out of the discusion, but I must clarify one thing.

When Muslims would take over a land, they did not tax them heavier, no sir, this a misconception.

Muslims are obligated to give 2.5% of their wealth to charity. Now, when the muslims rule a country, everyone must be treated equal, but the religion cannot be forced on anyone, but they must abide by the Sharia Law. So since they must abide by the Sharia, even if they are not muslim, they must give charity, but, we cant force them to give charity, because this would be like forcing them to pray(or be muslim). So, what is done is, the Muslims make a Jizyah(tax) for the nonmuslims, so they also pay this 2.5 percent, but not as a charity, but as a tax. This way, the muslims and non-muslims all give the same amount of money to the government. Therefore, this doesnt make non muslims second class. It makes them equal.

[verissimus]

for the nonmuslims, so they also pay this 2.5 percent, but not as a charity, but as a tax. This way, the muslims and non-muslims all give the same amount of money to the government. Therefore, this doesnt make non muslims second class. It makes them equal.

I have a strong feeling that this argument is essentially going to deviate from the original intent of the post, but the above statement is just a matter of opinion. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

As a non-Muslim, I do not view it that way. You make it sound as though being equated with a Muslim is a privilege I must earn, by being forced to pay tax for a belief system I do not subscribe to. You can call it charity if you want, but at the end of the day you're forcing me to part with it.

Now, you are certainly within your rights to believe that, and I have no problems with you, if you do (primarily because I don't even know you :D ). Because ultimately that is what religion should be - a personal belief, kept within one's house and one's family.

The moment one starts trying to "spread the word" (in a manner of speaking), or making religion the purview of the government, is when there is bound to be conflict.

[Ignatz]

When I was growing up there were all little ethnic neighborhoods and it was dangerous to go from one to another. Everybody hated everybody else. My grandmother said that all the different groups should intermarry and have children because nobody hates their grandchildren.

[Moe-Swordsaint!]

I have a strong feeling that this argument is essentially going to deviate from the original intent of the post, but the above statement is just a matter of opinion. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

As a non-Muslim, I do not view it that way. You make it sound as though being equated with a Muslim is a privilege I must earn, by being forced to pay tax for a belief system I do not subscribe to. You can call it charity if you want, but at the end of the day you're forcing me to part with it.

Now, you are certainly within your rights to believe that, and I have no problems with you, if you do (primarily because I don't even know you :D ). Because ultimately that is what religion should be - a personal belief, kept within one's house and one's family.

The moment one starts trying to "spread the word" (in a manner of speaking), or making religion the purview of the government, is when there is bound to be conflict.


Well would you rather pay 2.5% and be treated equal, or be conqured by someone else that wont give 2 crapholes about u and most likely take ur whole fortune and kill you?

The choice was simple: you either convert, and if u didnt want to, u pay jizyah. If u are poor then the 2.5% payed by the muslims would go to those like you.

The jizyah is a little like taxes people pay in Europe and the US as part of being citizens (I think).

[Mugu]

I think the "holy land" should renamed to "the bloody land"...

damn crazy people...

[verissimus]

Well would you rather pay 2.5% and be treated equal, or be conqured by someone else that wont give 2 crapholes about u and most likely take ur whole fortune and kill you?


Just because it happened, does not make it right.

Anyway, since I no longer live in medieval India, this question is rhetorical.

[verissimus]

The jizyah is a little like taxes people pay in Europe and the US as part of being citizens (I think).

No, there is a difference. First of all, there's no tax in Europe or the US, based on your religion. There's no such tax in any other country either. Is there such a tax in Islamic states (for eg, Saudi Arabia)? You'd have to educate me there, since I don't know.

Secondly, there's a difference between a person migrating to the US/Europe, being granted citizenship, and then having to pay a new tax; and one who was already a citizen, and having to pay a tax because the new president decided to levy one on those who did not follow his/her religion.

[KhawMengLee]

I could be wrong but I think what they are trying to say is that in the mid-east, the majority of the people there are muslims. Therefor, the Law operates under Islamic Law. So the 2.5% tax system they pay is for Muslims to give charity to the poor.

This seperate tax, Jizyah, is like a seperate law for non-muslims but is equal in application.

The point is, the Law is Shariah Law but non-muslims cannot be held to this(things like women having to wear burkah etc). So of course a different law must be made for them.

In the west, the Law, Government and Religion are not so closely knit(maybe not in the States) but in the Mid East, Religion and Law are one and the same. Therefor, non-muslims should not be forced to bend towards a religion/law that is not their own. hence, the seperate application of law.

[Ignatz]

All religions have something in common, in practice they are all basically bullshit.
God does not like this.
I know, she told me.

[verissimus]

but in the Mid East, Religion and Law are one and the same.


And that, I think, is the biggest problem. Religion should not be the business of the government.

[KhawMengLee]

And that, I think, is the biggest problem. Religion should not be the business of the government.

Tell that to George W Bush...and the Republicans too.

[verissimus]

God does not like this.
I know, she told me.

Yeah, my mother told me that too.

[verissimus]

Tell that to George W Bush...and the Republicans too.

To his credit, he may think I'm crazy, but he won't stop me from building a temple and praying there.

At least I hope not.

[Dufus]

Tell that to George W Bush...and the Republicans too.

Separation of church and state here in the US only means that the government cannot establish a certain religion as the religion of the US. This has nothing to do with peoples religious views being a part of their political views. And since George was elected, his party's views, which also happen to be based on religion, are now intertwined with the government. This, however, will certainly not lead to Bush saying his religion wil be the religion of the US, and people will remain free to practice whatever faith they choose.

[h2o]

No, there is a difference. First of all, there's no tax in Europe or the US, based on your religion. Sorry to disappoint you, but the church of Sweden actually gets funding through taxes. Only from its members, of course, and it is low and is supposed to be a membership fee, but it is collected as a tax.

[verissimus]

By members you mean members of the church, or all citizens of Sweden? Would a non-Christian citizen of Sweden also have to pay this tax?

[verissimus]

I did a Google search and found the following link:

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_sweden.html

If I understand correctly, the tax is optional. I quote:

<snip>
To solve this problem, the government has agreed to continue collecting from individual taxpayers the annual payment that has always gone to the church. But now the tax will be an optional checkoff box on the tax return.

And the government will allocate the money collected to Catholic, Muslim, Jewish and other faiths as well as the Lutherans, with each taxpayer directing where his or her taxes should go.

"The key point is that the Church of Sweden no longer has the legal power to tax," said Carl-Einar Nordling of the Ministry of Culture. "The state is now merely helping the church collect voluntary contributions, and (for) other faiths as well."
</snip>

[h2o]

Yep, that seems to be correct. It is still a sort of religious tax. Volountary or not. ;)

[verissimus]

That's OK. I have a problem with the involuntary kind.

Actually, I have a problem with taxes, in general.

[h2o]

Actually, I have a problem with taxes, in general.We are quite used to it. Most people pay somewhere around 50% tax. Yes, people think taxes are high, but they also enjoy public health care and being able to study at a university without paying any fees. Or, well, the law states you must be part of a students organization which is, in my case about 50-60$ a year, but it is not an educational fee.

[Moe-Swordsaint!]

No, there is a difference. First of all, there's no tax in Europe or the US, based on your religion. There's no such tax in any other country either. Is there such a tax in Islamic states (for eg, Saudi Arabia)? You'd have to educate me there, since I don't know.

Secondly, there's a difference between a person migrating to the US/Europe, being granted citizenship, and then having to pay a new tax; and one who was already a citizen, and having to pay a tax because the new president decided to levy one on those who did not follow his/her religion.



I could be wrong but I think what they are trying to say is that in the mid-east, the majority of the people there are muslims. Therefor, the Law operates under Islamic Law. So the 2.5% tax system they pay is for Muslims to give charity to the poor.

This seperate tax, Jizyah, is like a seperate law for non-muslims but is equal in application.

The point is, the Law is Shariah Law but non-muslims cannot be held to this(things like women having to wear burkah etc). So of course a different law must be made for them.

In the west, the Law, Government and Religion are not so closely knit(maybe not in the States) but in the Mid East, Religion and Law are one and the same. Therefor, non-muslims should not be forced to bend towards a religion/law that is not their own. hence, the seperate application of law.


You must have understood me wrong verissimus... when I said it was like it I meant people pay money to the goverment, and it is like it in that way not in another, thats it.

And no in Saudi Arabia (or any other islamic country) the jizya isn't payed, because as I said its only payed when u take over a new country by conquest (or however)... so your second paragraph (verissimus) is wrong in describing jizyah.

KhawMengLee you almost got it right except for the things stated above.

Oh and the burkah is not Sharia Law, long story.




but in the Mid East, Religion and Law are one and the same.

And that, I think, is the biggest problem. Religion should not be the business of the government.

Actually it has worked that way around these areas for many centuries with no problem. Islamic Law has proven itself the best way to govern a state (IMO), I mean the Islamic World has been running on it for a long time. Well, up until around WWI when the Ottoman empire was destroyed and small countries were formed. Few of them still used Sharia Law, and there you have the middle east crisis. HORAAAY!

[Moe-Swordsaint!]

We are quite used to it. Most people pay somewhere around 50% tax. Yes, people think taxes are high, but they also enjoy public health care and being able to study at a university without paying any fees. Or, well, the law states you must be part of a students organization which is, in my case about 50-60$ a year, but it is not an educational fee.


:silly: Over here we dont pay any taxes and we get all that! hehehe.


BTW the Zakah (2.5% given to charity, not the goverment) is not a tax.

[h2o]

:silly: Over here we dont pay any taxes and we get all that! hehehe.
Good for you :)
I think I still prefer living in a country with a little higher state of democracy though ;)

[h2o]

Btw... Israel just attacked a UN military outpost. Hopefully this means that the UN will actually force a solution to this, which is really what should have happened the first week.
Am I the only one who thinks the UN would be much better without the blasted security council?

[Niten Ninja]

Islamic Law has proven itself the best way to govern a state (IMO), I mean the Islamic World has been running on it for a long time.

...Why does the length of time a system of goverance has been around determine it's quality?

[Manuka]

Actually it has worked that way around these areas for many centuries with no problem. Islamic Law has proven itself the best way to govern a state (IMO), I mean the Islamic World has been running on it for a long time. Well, up until around WWI when the Ottoman empire was destroyed and small countries were formed. HORAAAY!


So if longevity is the mark of good government we should still be crucifying dissenters, after all the Roman form of government lasted about 1100 years, add another 1000 if you include the Byzantine Empire. The Ottomans only ran about 600 years and collapsed with corruption.

[Niten Ninja]

Wait a minute... the Ottoman empire was RULED by a monarchical system, it's legal system though may have been Islamic law.

[Moe-Swordsaint!]

I wasn't talking about the Ottomans in particular. I was talking about the Islamic World as a whole.

And when i said it proved itself because of the length of time it was used thats because it lasted all that time being used with no problems whatsoever. The Roman Empire, on the other hand, has seen its share of revolts and things of that sort.

oh and, as Niten Ninja pointed out, I was referring to the legal system used.

[verissimus]

And when i said it proved itself because of the length of time it was used thats because it lasted all that time being used with no problems whatsoever. The Roman Empire, on the other hand, has seen its share of revolts and things of that sort.


That may be so, but the Roman Empire ultimately disintegrated into a loose union of democratic countries. Of course, the road to that wasn't pleasant, and I'm not claiming Nero and his fiddle had anything to do with modern governance, but I find the end-result fairly appealing.

What did the Ottoman Empire disintegrate into?

[Niten Ninja]

[/QUOTE]The Roman Empire, on the other hand, has seen its share of revolts and things of that sort.[/QUOTE]

Generally only initially, but after they setup properly... less so. In fact most revolts were Roman generals deciding they'd quite like to be in power.


That may be so, but the Roman Empire ultimately disintegrated into a loose union of democratic countries

?!?! You sure? I was thinking that the ROman empire became a loose grouping of monarchies that spend the next millenium an a half trying to kill each other...

Interestingly the Roman empire actually eventually became the Ottoman empire. Istanbul was originally Byzantium, capital of the eastern Roman empire.


I was talking about the Islamic World as a whole.

But didn't the original Islamic empre break up into three?


oh and, as Niten Ninja pointed out, I was referring to the legal system used.

Generally speaking countries tend not to disintergrate because of legal systems.

[verissimus]

?!?! You sure? I was thinking that the ROman empire became a loose grouping of monarchies that spend the next millenium an a half trying to kill each other...

Interestingly the Roman empire actually eventually became the Ottoman empire. Istanbul was originally Byzantium, capital of the eastern Roman empire.


Yeah, I know. That's why I used the word "ultimately". Obviously, it would be trivial to ignore what happened in the interim. My point was a stress on the end result.

[Niten Ninja]

Perhaps, but the interim period is over a thoasand years. The Ottoman empire only fell apart... ninety? eighty? years ago. Comparisons are a bit problematic.

[Manuka]

When the Roman empire collapsed europe entered the dark ages, a 400 year period of chaos. The Ottomans ruled most of what is now the middle east, some parts of which are still in chaos, most of which are not.

In the middle east a lot of the problems are national boundaries drawn by some person in London with no concept of the people living around those lines.

When a centralized system of law and order collapses there is (almost) always some sort of vacumn until a replacement system is in place. Take a look at what was the USSR, some parts are doing fine, others less fine like Chechna.

[verissimus]

The fact that the Ottoman Empire collapsed only recently (when compared to the Roman Empire) is actually more troubling. I mean, what if this is just the beginning of the "400 years of chaos"?

[Niten Ninja]

Well to be honest, the rest of European history isn't exactly sunshine and flowers.

[Manuka]

or anywhere for that matter, whenever something looks real rosy you find the winners writing the history.

[Metsuke]

or anywhere for that matter, whenever something looks real rosy you find the winners writing the history.

Hence the term History, his story, referring most often to the winner. History of the looser usually became heresy.

[Manuka]

Hence the term History, his story, referring most often to the winner. History of the looser usually became heresy.

Her-esy, nice antonym choice

[crabbi]

Hmmm... this is a bit of a sticky subject isn't it.

I have visited Israel and spent some time visiting the border crossings to the West Bank and Gaza Strip (my company supplies the biometric equipment for the ID cards used by Palestinians at the border crossings).

There is certainly an almost tangible tension in the air at these crossing points, especially when you are in sight of Palestinian settlements and standing next to an Israeli soldier with an M16 slung over his / her shoulder.

I found the Israelis generally extremely pleasant and I have no reason to believe that I would have had a similarly hospitable welcome had I been amongst Palestinians.

The points made about Hamas and the Gaza Strip / West Bank situation are interesting and valid. I honestly can't see how this can be resolved...

The one piece that I am having most difficulty with at the moment is the fact that Hezbollah are firing missiles rom Lebanon at Israeli targets 50+ km away and the Israelis are bombing Hezbollah settlements in Lebanon and the Refugee escape routes. With this amount of acrimony and bloodshed going on, I don't understand the Lebanese position.

Basically, Israel is at war (undeclared) with a countryless organisation who are basing themselves on Lebanese land. How does this work...? They haven't declared war on lebanon but are shelling the crap out of Lebanese people who are sitting alongside the Hezbollah fighters (whether willingly or not).

Missiles are launched from Lebanese soil and are killing Israeli citizens... but no-one is at war...

Condi Rice is swanning around doing the rounds of high level politicians... how does that work?

The UN seems to be powerless / toothless... am I wrong?

Something doesn't feel right ... I am genuinely puzzled... please try to explain to me (really slowly and in simple words please...!)

[Niten Ninja]

Hence the term History, his story,

Although it seems obvious to be "his story" I think the word history actually comes from the greek word for investigate.

[crabbi]

history (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=history)
1390, "relation of incidents" (true or false), from O.Fr. historie, from L. historia "narrative, account, tale, story," from Gk. historia "a learning or knowing by inquiry, history, record, narrative," from historein "inquire," from histor "wise man, judge," from PIE *wid-tor-, from base *weid- "to know," lit. "to see" (see vision (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=vision)). Related to Gk. idein "to see," and to eidenai "to know." In M.E., not differentiated from story; sense of "record of past events" probably first attested 1485. Sense of "systematic account (without reference to time) of a set of natural phenomena" (1567) is now obs. except in natural history. What is historic (1669) is noted or celebrated in history; what is historical (1561) deals with history. Historian "writer of history in the higher sense," distinguished from a mere annalist or chronicler, is from 1531. The O.E. word was þeod-wita.

heresy (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=heresy)
"an opinion of private men different from that of the catholick and orthodox church" [Johnson], c.1225, from O.Fr. heresie, from L. hæresis, "school of thought, philosophical sect," used by Christian writers for "unorthodox sect or doctrine," from Gk. hairesis "a taking or choosing," from haireisthai "take, seize," middle voice of hairein "to choose," of unknown origin. The Gk. word was used in N.T. in ref. to the Sadducees, Pharisees, and even the Christians, as sects of Judaism, but in Eng. bibles it is usually translated sect. Meaning "religious belief opposed to the orthodox doctrines of the Church" evolved in L.L. in the Dark Ages. Heretic (c.1330) is ult. from Gk. hairetikos "able to choose," the verbal adj. of hairein....and so endeth the etymological sub-thread...

Now... about those 65 Lebanese women and kids killed in Israeli air raids this morning in Qada, Lebanon...

[Niten Ninja]

Etymology is less depressing.

[Amir Barak]

Now... about those 65 Lebanese women and kids killed in Israeli air raids this morning in Qada, Lebanon...

not to vex lyrically here or anything, are you sure you have all the right numbers...? also, israel has been air-raiding the area for the past 72 hours prior, and in the 24 hours prior to that horrible shot the IDF issued a specific warning to qana village to evecuate as there were katyusha rockets fired from that particular village just yesterday.

[Gregory]

I don't get the idea that since Israelis believe they were there first, they deserve it...

Would it be fair if some guy came to my hosue tomorrow and said the house was rightfully his because his great great great great....great (etc) grandfather lived there? No.

PS Amir, the numbers for the bombing are from 60 people (cnn) to about 150 people. And saying "we told them" isnt a good excuse. If hezbolah said "we will bomb this 3x3 mile location tomorrow" then bombed the crap out of a preschool, you guys would bomb them back 10x as hard.

Everyone there needs to chill.

And everyone that doesnt live there needs to understand that zionism is NOT judaism. Keep im mind that MANY rabbis support the demolition of israel.

[KhawMengLee]

not to vex lyrically here or anything, are you sure you have all the right numbers...? also, israel has been air-raiding the area for the past 72 hours prior, and in the 24 hours prior to that horrible shot the IDF issued a specific warning to qana village to evecuate as there were katyusha rockets fired from that particular village just yesterday.

Yeah, and if Hezbollah issued a warning they would be bombing Haifa would all the residents leave? These are their homes, and IDF is telling them to basically leave so we can demolish everything you own. Hezbollah has crappy Iranian rockets that can demolish a wall and Israel has guided bombs, missles, motars, howitzers with enough firepower to wipe out a city block. If the IDF can pinpoint the town from which the rockets are coming from, they can pinpoint the location of the rocket battery and take it out with an airstrike. When they wipe out a city block and kill over 60 women and children...that's not military action, that's murder and genocide.

[Metsuke]

Although it seems obvious to be "his story" I think the word history actually comes from the greek word for investigate.

I was going for literal, rather than historic meanings or the root of the word. But thanx for the heads up.

Her-esy, nice antonym choice

Lol, thanx. at least someone got it.

[h2o]

not to vex lyrically here or anything, are you sure you have all the right numbers...? Is it important whether it was 60, 150 or 30 killed?

And I agree with KhawMengLee, issuing a warning doesn't really justify it either. I mean, running away requires you to have somewhere to go, and there seem to be raining missiles on most of the area right now. I mean, if you guys even fire on UN personell, then I would not count on being safe anywhere.

If I were to decide, the UN would gather a really bad-ass international peacekeeping force and put themselves in the middle of the war. Then shoot down anyone who opens fire on the spot, regardless of from which side the missiles or troops are coming. That would be equal.

[Ignatz]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wPglHZQf-0

comments? observations?

[KhawMengLee]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wPglHZQf-0

comments? observations?

Hell hath no fury...

She makes a good point...about the extreme face of Islam...but its like looking at the KKK and saying all white people are racist...Islam, is on the defensive right now...the more they get attacked, the more the fundamentalists win. I've met some pretty scary taliban type muslims and at the same time I've also met Oxford educated worldly muslims too.

She makes a lot of good points but at the same time she's wrong about the Zionists not making terrorist attacks. During the formative years of Israel, they weren't to shy about bombing arab civilians.

I take it like this, imagine if disease and murder did not wipe out the majority of the native americans and they were living like the Palestinians are today. Like second class citizens in their own land. How would they revolt? How would they fight a nation that has more arms and all the best resources in the land?

Its very different how people act when they have nothing and when they have something...

[Ignatz]

Its very different how people act when they have nothing and when they have something...
To paraphrase Sun Tsu, always give you enemy at least the illusion of a way out because desparate men do desparate things.

[Old Warrior]

Yeah, and if Hezbollah issued a warning they would be bombing Haifa would all the residents leave? These are their homes, and IDF is telling them to basically leave so we can demolish everything you own. Hezbollah has crappy Iranian rockets that can demolish a wall and Israel has guided bombs, missles, motars, howitzers with enough firepower to wipe out a city block. If the IDF can pinpoint the town from which the rockets are coming from, they can pinpoint the location of the rocket battery and take it out with an airstrike. When they wipe out a city block and kill over 60 women and children...that's not military action, that's murder and genocide.

Let me see if I have this hypothesis straight. Israel's enemy started a war by kidnapping soldiers and sending rockets into their territory. The enemy's method of cover and camoflage is to put their primitive weapons in civillian areas and to prevent these civilians from leaving the war zone, they created.

Israel uses precise weapons to try and get to the rockets where the enemy has intentionally put them. It is murder and genocide to try and stop the rockets, but its perfectly OK for the initiator of the conflict to continue to rocket Israel, because they are somewhat incompetent in their aim.

I respectfully suggest that your comment is either devoid of logic or you have a prejudice and an agenda that defies civilized explanation.

All war is an abomination. But, rationalizing the actions of the instigators, simply encourages unacceptable behavior and fuels the need to destroy those who would effect senseless injury on their neighbor. No matter how you look at it, the Lebanese civillians are helpless pawns. However, there is no justification for Lebanon's failure to root out the terrorists from its southerntier; which was the the promise they made to cause Israel to vacate their territory and accept the prior UN Resolutions.

The only reason most of the world doesn't come out and publish as their state policy: "Death to all Jews" is the liklihood they will suffer some adverse consequences. Why this is so, continues to escape me.

[KhawMengLee]

Let me see if I have this hypothesis straight. Israel's enemy started a war by kidnapping soldiers and sending rockets into their territory. The enemy's method of cover and camoflage is to put their primitive weapons in civillian areas and to prevent these civilians from leaving the war zone, they created.

Israel uses precise weapons to try and get to the rockets where the enemy has intentionally put them. It is murder and genocide to try and stop the rockets, but its perfectly OK for the initiator of the conflict to continue to rocket Israel, because they are somewhat incompetent in their aim.

I respectfully suggest that your comment is either devoid of logic or you have a prejudice and an agenda that defies civilized explanation.

All war is an abomination. But, rationalizing the actions of the instigators, simply encourages unacceptable behavior and fuels the need to destroy those who would effect senseless injury on their neighbor. No matter how you look at it, the Lebanese civillians are helpless pawns. However, there is no justification for Lebanon's failure to root out the terrorists from its southerntier; which was the the promise they made to cause Israel to vacate their territory and accept the prior UN Resolutions.

The only reason most of the world doesn't come out and publish as their state policy: "Death to all Jews" is the liklihood they will suffer some adverse consequences. Why this is so, continues to escape me.

1) If we are going to get into the issue of who started what we are going to end up arguing about whether or not God promised either side the holy land some 3000 over years ago...

2) Israel uses precise weapons...exactly, and yet they seem to carpet bomb and entire city block full of women and children instead of hitting the enemy...you know all those videos of Desert Storm? Guided missles that could fly down an open coke bottle and shit...yeah, they could sure pinpoint targets there...Israel has those arms...yet seem to hit lots and lots of civilians...

3) The situation is not one where Palestine or Lebanon are sole instigators of violence...the leadup to this situation over the past year has seen (during the ceasefire) both sides trade shots. Israel has been hitting HAMAS heads and at the same time killing civilians in the process. HAMAS are still sending suicide bombers to attack Israel...both sides are doing it for revenge.

My point here is that Israel has the power and the technology to reduce civilian casualties but they aren't.

[Old Warrior]

1) If we are going to get into the issue of who started what we are going to end up arguing about whether or not God promised either side the holy land some 3000 over years ago...

This is nonsense and you know it. Your comment is identical to having a discussion with my beloved Wife of 25 years. When she has nothing to say, she goes back 20 years and rehashes something stupid I did when we were first married.

You want to go back 3000 years to try and make a point. Solutions for world peace come from the reality of today. You have nothing to say to refute the truth or logic of the point that was made. Your approach is just more of "Death to All Jews". Only when you dehumanize the Israelis and discount the value of Jewish lives can you come up these kinds of meaningless arguments.

I am sick over every lost Lebanese soul. But, trying to tell me that the precipitating cause of their demise is from 3000 years ago doesn't do it for me.

[Theodore]

Yeah, and if Hezbollah issued a warning they would be bombing Haifa would all the residents leave? These are their homes, and IDF is telling them to basically leave so we can demolish everything you own. Hezbollah has crappy Iranian rockets that can demolish a wall and Israel has guided bombs, missles, motars, howitzers with enough firepower to wipe out a city block. If the IDF can pinpoint the town from which the rockets are coming from, they can pinpoint the location of the rocket battery and take it out with an airstrike. When they wipe out a city block and kill over 60 women and children...that's not military action, that's murder and genocide.

Here is the state of the law of international warfare on the use of discriminate vs indiscriminate weaponry: (http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/weapons.html)



Customary international law also prohibits the use of indiscriminate (http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/indiscriminate-attack.html) weapons. An indiscriminate weapon is one that cannot be directed at a legitimate military objective. The V-2 rockets used by Germany in World War II were indiscriminate weapons, in that they could not be directed at any target smaller than an entire city. After the 1991 Gulf War (http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/gulf-war.html), the U.S. Department of Defense reported to Congress that the SCUD missiles used by Iraq (which were not very much more accurate than the V-2) were indiscriminate, and that their use constituted a war crime. Similarly, the balloons carrying incendiary bombs, which the Japanese launched into the jet stream toward the United States in 1945, were indiscriminate weapons. The Japanese government hoped they would cause forest fires in the western United States, but the balloons could not be controlled enough to fulfill even this function.

A weapon is not indiscriminate merely because it is highly destructive.


Under this definition the use of highly destructive missles against Katushya sites located about 30 m. from an apartment is not illegal (hence not genocidal) but the launching of Katushya rockets (really area weapons) against the civilian population of Haifa is illegal.

[KhawMengLee]

This is nonsense and you know it. Your comment is identical to having a discussion with my beloved Wife of 25 years. When she has nothing to say, she goes back 20 years and rehashes something stupid I did when we were first married.

You want to go back 3000 years to try and make a point. Solutions for world peace come from the reality of today. You have nothing to say to refute the truth or logic of the point that was made.

1) Look mate, you may think that HAMAS and Lebenon started all this by kidnapping Israeli soldiers. But you can also argue it was retaliation for the countless attacks Israel has conducted on HAMAS leaders and areas in Lebenon that have not only failed to obtain their objectives but have killed civilians in the process. Those attacks can be argued on the Israeli side as reprisals for suicide bombings, which in turn could be argued are revenge attacks for previous Israeli attacks etc etc

If Israel wants to kill terrorists then kill them. They have the technology. They have the power. They should use it...if you kill only the terrorists and spare the civilians then your cause becomes just. And before we start talking about how hard it is to target terrorists in a warzone...lets talk about clear cut instances like a few months back when Israeli Tanks shot and killed children throwing rocks at them or even more recently the UN troops in Lebenon.

As I said before, they have the technology but aren't using it to spare non-combatants.


Your approach is just more of "Death to All Jews". Only when you dehumanize the Israelis and discount the value of Jewish lives can you come up these kinds of meaningless arguments.

I am sick over every lost Lebanese soul. But, trying to tell me that the precipitating cause of their demise is from 3000 years ago doesn't do it for me.

Oh yes...the anti-semite card. Sorry buddy, no dice. My beef is with Israeli government policy not with the issue of Jews or racism, which have no place in this argument.

Dehumanize the Israelis? Really? So when HAMAS kidnaps an Israeli soldier we are supposed to feel overwhelming support and empathy for Israel...but when over 60 Lebanese women and children get butchered in a botched airstrike we can't express outrage and disaproval? Mate, that is hypocrisy.

You may think I am discounting Israeli lives...but I think your belief that my expressing disgust over the way those women and children were killed is wrong, is discounting the value of Palestinian and basically human lives on the whole.

[KhawMengLee]

Here is the state of the law of international warfare on the use of discriminate vs indiscriminate weaponry: (http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/weapons.html)



Under this definition the use of highly destructive missles against Katushya sites located about 30 m. from an apartment is not illegal (hence not genocidal) but the launching of Katushya rockets (really area weapons) against the civilian population of Haifa is illegal.


Kinda makes you wonder about the use of cluster bombs in Iraq...

[Old Warrior]

[QUOTE=KhawMengLee]1) Look mate, you may think that HAMAS and Lebenon started all this by kidnapping Israeli soldiers. But you can also argue it was retaliation for the countless attacks Israel has conducted on HAMAS leaders and areas in Lebenon that have not only failed to obtain their objectives but have killed civilians in the process. Those attacks can be argued on the Israeli side as reprisals for suicide bombings, which in turn could be argued are revenge attacks for previous Israeli attacks etc etc.
[QUOTE]

So where and when does it stop? I say - stop the rockets and hold the Israelis to an immediate withdrawal. I further say: the Israelis should participate in the cost of rebuilding what was destroyed.

Now, does your position allow for the return of the 2 soldiers and the granting of a license to return, if the rockets don't stop. Or does your logic give the terrorists free reign to do what they want, when they want, so there is never hope of peace, because of your 3000 years of history theory.

In every world hot spot there are historical hatreds, be they Muslims and Christians in Bosnia or Hutus and _____ (forgive me, I am ignorant of their enemy) in Africa.

I am only interested in the now. Peace has to start somewhere and each side has to be responsible for breach of understandings, once reached. Apologists on both sides need to stand up for what's right, not simply mouth loyalty to their kinsman. I am not suggesting its easy, but justification of bad behavior by historical reference, doesn't do anything but continue the strife.

[KhawMengLee]

[QUOTE=KhawMengLee]1) Look mate, you may think that HAMAS and Lebenon started all this by kidnapping Israeli soldiers. But you can also argue it was retaliation for the countless attacks Israel has conducted on HAMAS leaders and areas in Lebenon that have not only failed to obtain their objectives but have killed civilians in the process. Those attacks can be argued on the Israeli side as reprisals for suicide bombings, which in turn could be argued are revenge attacks for previous Israeli attacks etc etc.
[QUOTE]

So where and when does it stop? I say - stop the rockets and hold the Israelis to an immediate withdrawal. I further say: the Israelis should participate in the cost of rebuilding what was destroyed.

Now, does your position allow for the return of the 2 soldiers and the granting of a license to return, if the rockets don't stop. Or does your logic give the terrorists free reign to do what they want, when they want, so there is never hope of peace, because of your 3000 years of history theory.

In every world hot spot there are historical hatreds, be they Muslims and Christians in Bosnia or Hutus and _____ (forgive me, I am ignorant of their enemy) in Africa.

I am only interested in the now. Peace has to start somewhere and each side has to be responsible for breach of understandings, once reached. Apologists on both sides need to stand up for what's right, not simply mouth loyalty to their kinsman. I am not suggesting its easy, but justification of bad behavior by historical reference, doesn't do anything but continue the strife.

You know, the first Israeli I met and the first Arab I met coincided at the same time. One of them spotted for me while I was doing some bench press workout. Afterwards we got talking and I found that both of them were at Oxford Uni and were best mates.

To me, the issue of religion or race is bullshit...because the Abrahamic people from the region share more in common than difference.

Of course I would like to see peace. I would like there to be no bloodshed. But its something both sides must work at...seriously, and not some hollow promise that gets broken. Hamas, etc must stop their bombing campaign but Israel should also stop firing missles and bombs into refugee camps.

I mean face it...Israels enemies in the west bank don't exactly have the weapons to fight on 'fair' terms with Israel.

The sad thing is tho' that those in the old guard who can really make a difference get killed or are already dead. Rabin, was going there and they killed him...Dayan was my hero but he died before he could do anything...

The one thing I really respected about Moshe Dayan was after the Six Day War, he reprimanded the soldiers who flew an Israeli Flag over the Dome of the Rock and ordered it to immediately be taken down. Dayan, understood that the area was sacred to all and could also understand that in the long term...mutual respect and co-operation was needed.

[Theodore]

Kinda makes you wonder about the use of cluster bombs in Iraq...

Do more research, Cluster bombs are not illegal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_bomb)........


<H2>Threat to civilians

The use of these weapons is hotly opposed by many individuals and groups, such as the Red Cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cross), the NGO Cluster Munition Coalition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_Munition_Coalition) and the United Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations), because of the high proportion of civilians that have fallen victim to the weapon. The particular threat this weapon poses to civilians exists for two main reasons. First, because of the weapon's very wide area of effect, accidentally striking both civilian and military objects in the target area is possible. The area affected by a single cluster munition, also known as the footprint, can be as large as two or three football fields. This characteristic of the weapon is particularly problematic for civilians when cluster munitions are used in or near populated areas and has been documented by research reports from groups such as Human Rights Watch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch) and Landmine Action[1] (http://hrw.org/reports/2003/usa1203/usa1203.pdf). Secondly, depending on type and their use, between 1% and 40% of the bomblets do not explode on impact[2] (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3463.htm). These unexploded ordnance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexploded_ordnance) (duds) present a particularly dense and dangerous form of post-conflict contamination and may unintentionally act like anti-personnel land mines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_mine) (which have been banned in many countries under the Ottawa Treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty)) for several years. However, cluster bombs are not banned by any international treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty) and are considered legitimate and effective weapons by many NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO) governments. International governmental deliberations revolve around the broader problem of explosive remnants of war, a problem to which cluster munitions have contributed in a significant way. However, despite calls from humanitarian organisations and some governments, no international governmental negotiations or formal discussions are underway to develop specific measures that would address the humanitarian problems cluster munitions pose. The issue of unexploded cluster bomblets should not be confused with cluster bombs containing landmines, such as the CBU-89 Gator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-89_Gator). (emphasis added).
</H2>

[Old Warrior]

You know, the first Israeli I met and the first Arab I met coincided at the same time. One of them spotted for me while I was doing some bench press workout. Afterwards we got talking and I found that both of them were at Oxford Uni and were best mates.

To me, the issue of religion or race is bullshit...because the Abrahamic people from the region share more in common than difference.

This is where the discussion should end. I could not agree more with your thought. If I have have appeared harsh or judgmental, I beg your forgiveness.

[KhawMengLee]

This is where the discussion should end. I could not agree more with your thought. If I have have appeared harsh or judgmental, I beg your forgiveness.

No apologies needed! If we agreed all the time we might as well be ants :wink:

[crabbi]

This is where the discussion should end. I could not agree more with your thought. If I have have appeared harsh or judgmental, I beg your forgiveness.

Interesting points all round... (and nice to see you posting again Old Warrior... haven't seen your posts for a while...).

I am still genuinely puzzled.

The Israeli soldier mentioned was taken hostage in the Gaza Strip by Hamas. The rockets launched from Lebanon were from Hezbollah. Israel is attacking Lebanese soil in retaliation and launching air strikes... Not just against settlements from which it is suspected they were launched, but also against refugees on roads away from the area.

I read an interesting article today from the Arab Washingtonian newsletter.... the link is here: http://arabwashingtonian.org/issue5/section.php?topicID=1#94

In it Steven Jones makes some very interesting observations. He quotes William Blum’s Rogue State: “A terrorist is someone with a bomb but not an air force.”

...and he quotes the New York Times: In an article dated July 22 [“U.S. Speeds Up Bomb Delivery for the Israelis”], the Times states that “the Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon.” According to the “American officials” cited by the Times, the rush job is out of the ordinary and has not been announced publicly by the government, but the bombs are “part of a multi million-dollar arms sale package approved last year that Israel is able to draw on as needed.”

Food for thought, but I still don't get it... I must be a lot thicker than I ever imagined....

[KhawMengLee]

Interesting points all round... (and nice to see you posting again Old Warrior... haven't seen your posts for a while...).

I am still genuinely puzzled.

The Israeli soldier mentioned was taken hostage in the Gaza Strip by Hamas. The rockets launched from Lebanon were from Hezbollah. Israel is attacking Lebanese soil in retaliation and launching air strikes... Not just against settlements from which it is suspected they were launched, but also against refugees on roads away from the area.

I read an interesting article today from the Arab Washingtonian newsletter.... the link is here: http://arabwashingtonian.org/issue5/section.php?topicID=1#94

In it Steven Jones makes some very interesting observations. He quotes William Blum’s Rogue State: “A terrorist is someone with a bomb but not an air force.”

...and he quotes the New York Times: In an article dated July 22 [“U.S. Speeds Up Bomb Delivery for the Israelis”], the Times states that “the Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon.” According to the “American officials” cited by the Times, the rush job is out of the ordinary and has not been announced publicly by the government, but the bombs are “part of a multi million-dollar arms sale package approved last year that Israel is able to draw on as needed.”

Food for thought, but I still don't get it... I must be a lot thicker than I ever imagined....

Actually, the Israelis went into Gaza for that. Then 2 more soldiers were abducted by Hezbollah and so Israel launched a invasion there too. two different incidents.

[Ignatz]

In it Steven Jones makes some very interesting observations. He quotes William Blum’s Rogue State: “A terrorist is someone with a bomb but not an air force.”
Frank Zappa said:
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."

Ignatz sez: "Don't get all serious on me"

[crabbi]

Actually, the Israelis went into Gaza for that. Then 2 more soldiers were abducted by Hezbollah and so Israel launched a invasion there too. two different incidents.
...okay... but in the Gaza Strip and West Bank areas Hamas is the ruling party... whereas in Lebanon Hezbollah is a religiously alligned political party (!) and para-military organisation.


"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."
Hadn't heard that Zappa quote AG... I am a bit of an old time Zappatista myself...!

[Niten Ninja]

Food for thought, but I still don't get it... I must be a lot thicker than I ever imagined....

What exactly don't you understand?

[crabbi]

What exactly don't you understand?
as I said in post #89:


...The one piece that I am having most difficulty with at the moment is the fact that Hezbollah are firing missiles rom Lebanon at Israeli targets 50+ km away and the Israelis are bombing Hezbollah settlements in Lebanon and the Refugee escape routes. With this amount of acrimony and bloodshed going on, I don't understand the Lebanese position.

Basically, Israel is at war (undeclared) with a countryless organisation who are basing themselves on Lebanese land. How does this work...? They haven't declared war on Lebanon but are shelling the crap out of Lebanese people who are sitting alongside the Hezbollah fighters (whether willingly or not).

Missiles are launched from Lebanese soil and are killing Israeli citizens... but no-one is at war...
Basically I guess I don't understand the relationship between Hezbollah, Lebanon, the Lebanese Armed Forces (?), the IDF and the UN... and that mythical beast 'the global community'...

[kenwakokoro]

I take it like this, imagine if disease and murder did not wipe out the majority of the native americans and they were living like the Palestinians are today. Like second class citizens in their own land. How would they revolt? How would they fight a nation that has more arms and all the best resources in the land?

Maybe they could open a gambling casino?

[satsumaruma]

I would've liked to get involved in this thread but then the thought struck me.........
all we REALLY know about the events in the world beyond our windows is what reporters deign to tell us.

Do we really trust people who make a living out of being a professional gossip, busy-body and nosyparker all rolled into one. (not to mention that all reports are written to the tune of the Editor who dances the dance of his/her masters choosing.