Of judging and bad calls...

[slidercrank]

I have seen several threads in which the issue of bad judging featured prominently.

Some of us here compete at higher level or have been to more tournaments than others.

If you have been to many tournaments, I think it's fair to say that for every "bad call" that went against you, there have been just as many that went for you. Thus, you have nothing to complain. But if that were not the case, that meant something was lacking in your timing, posture, power or zanshin, which made your opponent's strike to look always better than yours. In that case, there is still nothing for you to complain.

If you have competed at, say, the national level, at which level I am definitely not, and you had a "bad call" that went against you. Well, I'm not qualified to give a personal thought, but I came across this passage from Naoki Eiga about the famous bad call that went against him (Miyazaki's men did not touch him, but was given ippon and that decided the match. This was at I believe the 47th All Japan, quarter final):

"Q: In the quarter-final of the JKC with Miwazaki in the year before last, you defended his attack in your head and counterattacked in his waist, but judges confirmed his attack in your head, instead ?

Eiga: I thought I won the game at first but after check out the video tape at home I felt I lost the game. After that, I meditated and reflected on myself as studying the video over again. However, I never think the judge was wrong."

Passage taken from an interview with Eiga. The interview is at www.tokyokman.com.

If the man had nothing to say when the All Japan title was at stake, did the rest of us really have the right to hiss and get pissed?

[Inouye02]

Your search "www.tokyokman.com" returned no results.

are you sure of this site ?

[ben]

I lost the national title to a bad/unusual call. There was ample grounds for appealing the decision since, by some mix-up in the organisation, the shushin for the final was only 3 dan.

That's how it felt for along time, however upon reflection I realised that the real reason I lost was simply because I didn't want to win as much as my opponent. When I owned up to this fact, the sting of losing disappeared.

When you blame others for your misfortune you disempower yourself. You become the victim, incapable, by definition, of taking any action to change the situation.

If you own up to your own shortcomings, you at least open up the path to changing the circumstances that led to your defeat.

Otherwise you remain a victim forever.

Losing hurts, SFW. Suck it up. It teaches you more than winning does.

My $0.02 as a high-level loser.

b

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by Inouye02
Your search "www.tokyokman.com" returned no results.

are you sure of this site ?

My mistake; an extra "k" in the url. Go to:

http://www.tokyoman.com/english/gray/main.htm

Near the top of the page you will see the link "Interview with the World Champion, Eiga."

[M.K. Kawai]

Slidercrank,

My intepretation is that he reviewed the video and realized that the judges DID make the right call.

Big difference when you have the opportunity to see the evidence. BTW, if you want to talk about bad calls there are some people on the forum who saw what happened during the finals at the 1988 WKC in South Korea.

Makes all the complaining on this forum look extremely benign.

MKK

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai
Slidercrank,

My intepretation is that he reviewed the video and realized that the judges DID make the right call.



Actually, I have seen the video of the Eiga match. In slow motion, it was clear that Miyasaki's men strike did not connect. Eiga countered it perfectly with men-kaeshi-do. Thus, I can only believe that Eiga meant that while the match was seemingly decided by an ippon in encho, Miyasaki's kendo throughout the match was the superior one. Therefore, the call notwithstanding, Miyasaki deserved to advance.

[samurai999]

Originally posted by M.K. Kawai
Slidercrank,

Big difference when you have the opportunity to see the evidence. BTW, if you want to talk about bad calls there are some people on the forum who saw what happened during the finals at the 1988 WKC in South Korea.
MKK

I have heard tales from this one. Parts of which involved rioting, throwing beverages, chairs, people boycotting the awards ceremony. I heard that the Korean contingent complained first about the Japanese judging being biased and then, the Japanese-American judge being biased. Rumors though.. I wasn't there so I can't say for sure.. But these are the rumors I have collected...

Tim

[samurai999]

Originally posted by ben
I lost the national title to a bad/unusual call. There was ample grounds for appealing the decision since, by some mix-up in the organisation, the shushin for the final was only 3 dan.

b

I lost to usually bad calls, but I didn't really care until I saw video tape replays. Like phantom men calls, and kotes that hit my shoulder. Similar to Hongsermeier's wife, I just sorta took it as it was until I saw evidence to actually prove the fact that I was cheated.. I also confirmed it with the sensei.. That sorta made me shake my head and say, "well, I wasn't wrong but the sensei was wrong.. unbelieveable".

Like I posted in another thread, there are sensei out there that simply miss calls. How do I know? I go to shimpan seminars and these same sensei get railed at these things because of that. I remember Ota sensei saying something to the gist of "Kenshi have to accept the calls made by the judges as final, but judges are actually disrespecting the kenshi by making bad/incorrect calls on a good hit." He also hinted that it can be (in some cases) be detrimental to the development of a kendo player.

Tim

[ben]

Maybe in the US you have some shockingly bad shimpan. In Australia we just have inexperienced shimpan. There's a difference in that we don't expect them to know better. Maybe that makes it easier to take the bad decisions I don't know.

Nevertheless I think the only way I can be a good shimpan in a high pressure match (and I've also shimpan-ed national finals) is to go out there with the attitude: "I may be wrong on occasion, but because I am a shimpan, even when I'm wrong I'm right."

Video replays are to be taken with a huge grain of salt IMHO. They are in fact 20/20 hindsight. Lots of things go into producing a victory or a defeat - luck good or bad is a big part of it. My ideal is to play the kind of kendo where regardless of the outcome I know I couldn't have given any more. If I can honestly say to myself that I have reached or even exceeded my expectations, I cannot lose. The actual outcome is secondary.

With that frame of mind I suggest that as soon as you walk out onto the shiaijo, you have won. That is an incredibly powerful mindset to carry with you.

b

[JSchmidt]

"Nevertheless I think the only way I can be a good shimpan in a high pressure match (and I've also shimpan-ed national finals) is to go out there with the attitude: "I may be wrong on occasion, but because I am a shimpan, even when I'm wrong I'm right.""

I was a baseball umpire for a couple of seasons and yes, that's the attitude you take...but I was also taught to take a second or two to mentally review any close calls. At the same time, I was always open to discuss any calls, but any excessive whining and

I actually ended up being a shinpan for the first time last weekend (Both for the kyu-grades, but also the 4th dan+) and while I wouldn't say that I enjoyed it, at least I'm 100% certain we didnt give anything away. (There might have been 1 or 2 non-calls, but certainly didnt give any bad hits)

Jakob.

[AlexM]

That "phantom men" call in Miyazaki's favor was one of the worst. I'm surprised that Eiga goes so far as to say Miyazaki deserved to win despite the fact that he didn't (no ippon = no victory). It was a bad call, plain and simple. The shinpan made a mistake (one in particular who everyone knows about but shall remain nameless).

What makes it wrong to say that the call was bad? It seems a bit self-delusional to think: "The call was good, I deserved to lose." Instead of saying: "The call was a mistake. But it's only kendo so I'll live."

I also loved the commentators on NHK: Trying to pretend the men-uchi was good when they had instant replay readily available to show it didn't hit. They sort of disgust me at times quite frankly.

There's nothing wrong with saying it was a bad call. It's worse to say that the call was good out of some deference towards the shinpan.

If you're not prepared for calls going against you then maybe kendo isn't for you. (of course that does not excuse biased or bad judging, they have to live with their bad decisions too).

[alexpollijr]

Judges are human, and therefore prone to making mistakes.

Bad calls happen in every sport, but it gets even more frequent when the judging process is subjective as is the case with kendo.

You take volley, or soccer, for example. Many times world championships of these sports have been won and lost due to judging mistakes. On individual sports we have tennis, where the players actively complain to the judge.

We're happy that not much money is involved in kendo tournaments. Otherwise things would get pretty much uglier than they are right now.

- Alexandre

[samurai999]

Originally posted by ben
Nevertheless I think the only way I can be a good shimpan in a high pressure match (and I've also shimpan-ed national finals) is to go out there with the attitude: "I may be wrong on occasion, but because I am a shimpan, even when I'm wrong I'm right."
b

I would restate this. It sounds a little on the arrogant side. More towards the area of "I would try to be as confident and as accurate as I can be on calls made". The attitude of "the kenshi will accept any call I make" is the wrong type of attitude to have. The role of the shimpan is to be quick and accurate as the shimpan can be with the calls. The kenshi know that shimpan can only be so accurate. But, we can tell if the shimpan is being arrogant or unfair.

Kurukuru usually complains about the judging. Maybe he can let it all out here. LOL

Tim

[M.K. Kawai]

Ahhhh... the joys of slow motion in video. If only everyone had it readiliy available to them. Unfortunately, I don't have that capability...Yet :)

Anyways, I call it like I read it. Without having the video to see, I have to go on what I read. And that's how I interpret his statement.

Was he being politically correct in his statement? It wouldn't surprise me.

It also wouldn't surprise me that he saw the video in real time and not in slo-mo. He may have seen something there. But, that's just a guess on my part.

Who knows? If you show it to him in slo-mo he may have a change of mind. But, I seriously doubt that he will say anything about it.

Just my thought...

MKK

[slidercrank]

MKK:

It's difficult to imagine that Eiga either did not see or was not referring to the video footage that I saw, since the footage was the official NHK broadcast of the tournament. And the slow motion of the men strike was also done by NHK in that broadcast.

Perhaps Eiga was indeed being PC with his statement. That, however, is exactly my point in my first message. Even at the most prestigious kendo tournament, incorrect calls can still happen. Thus, it's pointless to talk about what if there were no bad calls; there will always be bad calls. It's how one deal with such a bad call that matters. Eiga showed class (or PC) in dealing with his bad call. I don't see why any of us can't be like him.

[M.K. Kawai]

All right let me get my point to you this way... Not everyone has the benefit of a NHK video. The video that some people are able to get may not have a clear enough angle to see the point clearly and sometimes it does. Eiga probably understood this fact. The camera sometimes will not have the same angles as the judges POV. Unless NHK had a shimpan cam on each person, we will never know what they saw exactly. Two of the three may have seen a good Men. Who knows?

The complaints about judging that you are referring to have to do with consistently bad judging and/or biased judging. Not one bad call. Anyone whose been in a tournament probably had a bad call. That's life because the judges are human and will make a mistake.

These people are talking about judges who are just plain bad. They don't move around to get the best angle. They raise their flag because they see another judge raise their flag. Etc...

They never said that all judges were bad. They simply said that a few of the judges were bad and made their argument. You're comparing apples and oranges.

There is a HUGE difference between judges who will miss a call vs. judges who consistently miss calls.

So is it fair to the Kenshi on court that they have a judge that will make bad calls? NO, of course not.

All what Kenshi want on a court are three judges who do their best to call the match to the best of their ability. They don't want to have a judge that just simply doesn't know what they are doing out there.

Fairness, not perfection is what they asking for. Fairness does not include someone who cannot judge a match.

MKK

[Confound]

Shimpan are humans, as Alex said. There are infinite angles from which a shiai can be watched, there are three shimpan. They cover the shiaijo as best they can.

I agree that fairness is the best we can hope for, but I doubt that many shimpans go into a match with any great intention to favour one player over another. I really doubt that there are any shimpans who are blatantly incapable of judging a match, though there are some who aren't very good at it (the fellows who always raise a flag when they see anotehr shimpan do it).

c

[William Honda]

Horse manure,

On Eiga-

That is the Japanese way, two faced.

I would bet the farm that anyone close to him knows what he really thinks. And If you think what he said is what he thinks I'd like to sell you some land in Antartica- good price.

Good judges are consistent judges. Yes we are all human, but to call one good and a better one not, is cow pies. An inexperienced judge is just that and should not be judging upper level matches. Let them get experience in the kids divisions with two experienced judges. That is the way to learn.

[ben]

You call it "two-faced" I call it "kigurai".

So what if he goes home and whines to his wife? That's his (and everyone's) perogative. And who are you to try and second guess what he really thinks? At least he has the grace to bite his tongue in public. Maybe somewhere between being pissed off about the result and keeping "tatemae" about his feelings, he realises that in the end the result of a little competition don't mean shit. It happened, it was outside his control, and like a professional he has moved on. If he was to agonise about it like the people on this board, then he'd never win another shiai ever.

There sure is a lot of discontent among US posters on this forum about the standard of judging in their country.

b

[Hongsermeier]

ben...I think some of the disconent comes from seeing judging done in Japan. Then coming back to the US and trying to compare. Since a lot of the kenshi in the US still have relatives in Japan and do go to visit. I've been lucky enough to go myself and it is totaly different to practice there. There ability to see what is happening and knowing what will happen is very impressive.

[itazura]

Originally posted by ben


There sure is a lot of discontent among US posters on this forum about the standard of judging in their country.

b

Depends on where you're at in the US. If you go by the posters then the majority would be SoCal.

I don't see much complaining outside of Cal on here. I believe it's just a minority of people complaining anyway.

[ben]

Sorry Itazura, I stand corrected.

[itazura]

Its okay. We all like to whine sometimes, me included (mostly about work).

I just think it's a shame if you go out to do your best and the shimpan are truly bad. But that's why there are 3 and rarely is a shimpan truly bad. And as was said somewhere, sometimes you get it and sometimes the other guy gets it. Being your own judge of your match is usually a bad thing. I always ask for an opinion from a senior person who has enough experience to make a decent opinion. Also what you see on the court can be a lot different then what you see from the side. And video can be deceiving too. It doesn't carry all the spirit of the match with it.

I like to win and I hate to lose, but I'm not going to be a bad sport about it. I've won a bunch and I've lost a bunch. I just enjoy the whole package of kendo.

[William Honda]

Ben,

Just like you who whined about Americans in Iraq blah, blah, blah. I use the same argument on you. I am a person with an opinion- if you don't like it that is okay with me. When you stop complaining about us Gringos, then you can throw stones about what I think about Japanese, eh?

Also, stop putting words in my mouth. I can speak for myself. Re-read what I wrote Einstein. I never said it was illegal nor did I say that it was not admirable. So where do you come off saying its his prerogative? Is that not so freaking obvious? Do I need to point that out too, like "Caution, hot coffee". It's guys like you that make the world stupid.

Are you the thought police? Bite me.

If you disagree, argue the point, so I can rebut. Your comments are Jr. High debate level. Correction, even less than Jr. high.

Explain or make an argument how me stating that consistency in judging makes for good judging is whining. Stick to the issue and I will rebut.

[samurai999]

Originally posted by ben

There sure is a lot of discontent among US posters on this forum about the standard of judging in their country.

b

That is why we are here. To voice opinions right? My opinion is what I said earlier.

The sportsmans pledge that we recite at the start of EVERY tourney states that we will respect the judges decision as final. This means no matter how bad or unusual the call is. So even though we voice our opinions here, we know that we have to respect that in the dojo or on the torunament courts. Do we take a baseball bat to the shimpan because we think he sucks?? Of course not!!

Although a bit redundant, here is the next part.. Why does Ota sensei from Japan come to EVERY summer camp up here in the North and say the EXACT same thing every time about being a shimpan? Thats since everybody is making the same bad mistakes and the shimpan are very inconsistent amongst one another. It is one thing to accept the shimpan's decision out of respect. It is another thing when the shimpan doesn't try to be as accurate and as quick as he/she can be with the decisions.

Tim

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by William Honda

Good judges are consistent judges. Yes we are all human, but to call one good and a better one not, is cow pies.

The statements above are fine by themselves. Let's take it further though.

First, are you talking about that in all tournaments, there are always bad calls taking place, but by different judges? If so, it's just a fluke by different people.

Or, are you talking about consistent bad judging by the same group of 3 judges in many different tournaments, or just 1 match in 1 tournament? 1 mistake in 1 match in 1 tourney is not consitency. It's a fluke, no?

If you are talking about consistent bad judging by the same group of 3 judges in many different tournaments, read on:

Of all 3 judges, are you (the observer who's dissatisfied with the outcome of the match) outranking any of them? If not, then you can only say: "They have better angles than I do," or "they have better kendo judgement than I do."

If you outrank the one judge that made a bad call, but not the other 2 judges, it's up to the other 2 senior judges to make correction on court, not you in an internet forum. If one or both of the senior judges agreed with the "bad call" made by the junior judge whom you outrank, then we are back to the same situation where you probably don't know as much or don't see as well as you'd like to think you do.

If you outrank all 3 judges who collectively or individually made a bad call, then you should have the authority to chew them out right there and then, and you won't come here and complain.

Since you do come here and complain, it implies that you don't outrank any of the judges. So again, we are back to the situation where perhaps you don't see as well or know as much as you think you do.

What if you are of the same rank as 1 or all of the judges? Then I think you should talk to some sensei who's above all of you. If he agrees with you, he should take action. If he agrees with you but takes no action, you've done all you can. If he doesn't agree with you, then you're wrong. In any of the cases, you still shouldn't come here and complain.

When you (and I don't mean to single anyone out here; "you" is just a general pronoun) come here and complain, you're complaining in public. YOu might be anonymous, but you're still complaining in PUBLIC, and bringing disrepute to your federation and our passion, Kendo.

This is why I cited Eiga's example. What he says to his personal friends is not public. I don't know his inner, personal thought, and I don't presume it to be one way or the other. In any case, his comments to his wife/friends are at the very least, not public, therefore, not germaine to our discussion.

It's not to say complaining is "verboten." But is it valid? Is the situation valid so that your complaint is valid? If your judging is better than the judges, how come you're not outranking them and how come you're not on the floor yourself? If the strike is so good, so clear, that everyone in the audience sees it except the 3 judges, can you not be sure that they would hear about it afterwards? If they learn from that mistake and get better, then that bad call, as you said, was just a fluke and is not part of "consistently bad" judging. In that case, don't complain here. If the 3 judges refuse to improve, then there are something else going on there and I suspect you don't know what it is either. So if you don't know, what are you complaining about?

There is still 1 final possibility, that is: all the high-ranking kenshis in So Cal are incapable of judging; they, individually or collectively, make 1 bad call after the other at all levels of competition. Somehow, I don't think that's possible.

[ben]

My observation was merely that. The unspoken query in that observation was that if things are really that bad then maybe something constructive could be done to remedy the situation, i.e. if it's always the same shimpan who are bad/inconsistent, maybe you could lobby to have them barred from judging. This would need broad support obviously, from people who were the high-profile beneficiaries of their incompetence/bias, not just the unlucky losers.

b

[ben]

Originally posted by William Honda
Ben,

It's guys like you that make the world stupid.

Are you the thought police? Bite me.

If you disagree, argue the point, so I can rebut. Your comments are Jr. High debate level. Correction, even less than Jr. high.

Stick to the issue and I will rebut.

I'm sorry William, I can't rebut. Your argumentation has floored and I can't get up.

I bow to a brilliant and hilarious orator.

May I use your first comment above as my sig? I would be honoured.

b :)

[ben]

oops! floored *me*

b

[William Honda]

Wahahahahahahahaha!

You guys crack me up!

So, you don't complain when the ump calls the base runner out, or the referee calls a slashing penalty on your team, etc., etc., etc. So, I take it that you sit quietly at each and every sports gathering and accept each and every call without complaining/whining. I take it that if you've complained about the refereeing in football, you have refereed professional ball yourself and for longer than the ref making the call. You Hippocrites!

First, I have never complained nor thown any tantrums regarding ANY my matches. The calls are what they are. Are you saying that I cannot discuss or voice my opinions on anything? Unlike you who don't complain about work or your boss or football, baseball, hockey referees - Riiiiggghhhttt. You NEVER do that. You are on a much HIGHER plane than that. ( I have not seen ANY kenshi hit a judge with their shinai, have you? Is that what you think I am saying? I hope not, but I wonder why you would write that)

Second, I am talking consistency with the SAME judge. Not even three judges. I would agree with Slidercrank IF that was what I had in mind but, it is not. If a judge is consistent within him/herself, that is fine, but some are not consistent with themselves. Whassup with that!?

Since it not Verboten it IS valid. After all it is my opinion so my rank doesn't really matter does it? Since I do not chide any judge's to their face, my rank doesn't really matter does it? Since I don't say anything to the judge's face you CAN call me two faced and I CAN and WILL accept that with no rebuttal.

However, unless you are Jesus, you've complained about something someone in authority has decided on (like the moving violation ticket maybe, or the penalty that wasn't). I don't purport to be on a higher plane like many of you who think you are. Look in the mirror, could you be talking to yourself about another subject?

Slidercrank,

By your thought process then, if no one knows I am embezzling money, it is okay right? As long as no one knows. I don't thiiiiiink so. That is what Enron et. al. is all about. Your character shows when NO ONE IS WATCHING!

So, I think your logic is flawed on that issue. Uh un. Have to disagree on that one.

Ben,

Do you mind that I return the favor?

[JSchmidt]

"So, you don't complain when the ump calls the base runner out,"

A better comparison is to complaining about balls and strikes, which is a big no-no.

Jakob

[ben]

Originally posted by William Honda
Wahahahahahahahaha!

Do you mind that I return the favor?

Not at all. The only problem about having it as your sig is that people might think the quote refers to you, when it actually was made in relation to GeorgeWBush.

:)

b

[William Honda]

Ben, does that bother you?

Or were you just complaining?

[ben]

Not at all.

b

[William Honda]

Good, for a minute there it looked like you were whining.

Just like you wanting to spit in in Prime Minister Howard’s face, and dickhead Pres.Geo. Bush, and Americans that should get of their asses.

[ben]

Not taking that bait my half Samoan, half Japanese half Seppo mate. ;)


b

[William Honda]

Ben,

It is no fun if you don't take the bait.

Also I have no freaking idea what Seppo is. I don't get around much. (Obviously, or I would not be here - "Caution- Hot Coffee")

[Neil Gendzwill]

Seppo is rhyming slang for an american. Yank rhymes with tank like septic tank, shorten it and voila! seppo.

[William Honda]

Thanks Neil,

I think Ben needs some remidial math though. Half+half+half = 1 and a half.

Einstein he is not. Hope he is not a cashier.

[William Honda]

And I need some remedial spelling, sigh.

[William Honda]

Tim,

I apologize, I read your post incorrectly regarding the baseball bat. My bad.

I signed up for remedial reading too.

[Hongsermeier]

Honda...sounds like a lot of remedial. Do I hear remedial golf or kendo?? :cross_eye

[William Honda]

Yeah Baby!

I need a lot of remedial on both!

I'm not telling on my golf scores even if you all torture me. Can't hide my lousy kendo though.

[m_french]

Originally posted by William Honda
Can't hide my lousy kendo though.
If you're Kendo is Lousy and you knocked me out in the third round of the North/South that makes My kendo......................................Hey wait a minute!:beard:

[M.K. Kawai]

You see French...

That's what happens when you don't use that "Dragon Breathe Waza" :o

Now you got "lousy kendo" people dissing you, dude :D

MKK