physical differences

[rottunpunk]

ive been having a lot of trouble lately in standing up 'bum first' in iai
i.e at the end of a waza, or going up into the first cut in tsuki kage
its almost as if im getting up like an old woman getting out of a soft chair.
i was wondering if maybe its because:
- im a woman so move differently
- my broked knees mean that im just have to/used to getting up that way
- or im just doing it plain wrong and need to stop it (somehow) now
i think its probably the latter, but i was wondering if any of you lot have had similar experiences, whereby because wimmin are differently made up than blokes, the way they move is different.
if so what? how is it different? and if youve met a physical problem how did you adapt?
thanks in advance for any comments
:p

[David]

Ah...I know this is the women's forum, but I'm pretty sure it's in regards to kendo only. You should probably post questions about iai in the iaido forum.

But anyways, getting to your question: I doubt it has anything to do with being male or female. Aside from males maybe having a little bit more muscle, I'm pretty sure we're all built the same in the legs. Could be wrong though.

My guess is it's either reason one or two. You should talk to your sensei about it.

[rottunpunk]

i have, hes the one i that noticed it. (if i was a bloke hed be sticking a bakken up my arse :D )
women have larger thighs and bums in general.
if my bum sticks out more it may look like its dragging?
i thought about putting it in iai, but technically its a womans issue.
also i was aiming at directing the different physical issues between men and women to all arts. including kendo.
using hara for instance. our abdomen muscles are slightly different, does this effect methods used by females?

thanks for your input though david
:p

[Alison2805]

geez David, look how many posts Rottenpunk has. I think she would know where to put a thread. And there are some big differences between guys and girls to do with hips and legs - our hips are wider and at a different angle.

What exactly do you mean by "bum first" rottenpunk? I always thought girls are more flexible than guys tho.

[rottunpunk]

hehe thanks alison. see what happens when blokes move into our territory, they get all confuzzled.

its mainly aparent after the kneely down during noto bit, where one stands up again.
aparently im getting up with my bum sticking out (and probably leaning forward with the body) instead of all straight like (its a feeling of rising up with the bum so as not to leave it behind)
i dont know if its a habit ive just caught, or one ive always had. ive just put on a load of weight, so maybe its making my waza look different. or im just being crap
:p

[Lounge]

Hi all, my 10p worth...

When I was able to do kneeling kata (Those days gone by before my leg gave out!!) I had a similar problem and I'm a bloke so don't I know if it's a female only thing?!?! there may be other factors!!

Has your sensei/other told you about the feeling of tensing/squeezing your thighs prior to moving out of seiza and then initiate the movement by pushing up and forward with your pelvis? The same applies to the standing after noto, use your abs/pelvis to lead the movement upwards and forwards. I know it sounds silly and at first it will feel odd and look a bit wrong, but with practice it becomes a more natural movement that feels better. I do NOT mean do a massive pelvic thrust upwards!! :silly: you're likely to either fail miserably or just hurt yourself!! I mean just a tension in the muscles that leads the movement upwards.

I hope this helps, please understand that this is only my advice. If someone else knows better I will not dispute their methods or techniques as I have not done sawari waza for a while now.

[rottunpunk]

cheers lounge.
i know i tense, but im not sure off hand where.
ill have a play in a bit
:p

[runsyi]

When you say "the kneely down during noto bit" do you mean kneeling with one knee touching as in the first couple seitei kata or do you mean from sonkyo like in the suwari-waza?

My Kendo sensei likes to tell me to stick my belly out when I'm getting up from sonkyo. Doing some weight training to strengthen the leg muscles (especially the quads and glutes) might help as well.

[rottunpunk]

with one knee touching (after o'chiburui-infact i have the same problem in the standing up bit of o chiburui aswell)
i think (though will have to check) that i get up ok after sonkyo. though tate hiza no bu does hurt my broken knee because of the standy uppy bit. :(
:p

[ne0r]

I think it's similar to kendo when you go out of seiza.

I noticed that when I'm very tired I tend not to go out of seiza with a straight back but with leaning forward to put the mass of my body forward to get up -> what results in the bummy-sticky-outty motion (like the old woman that gets up from her chair). I think you need to hold your back straight and tense your thighs to push your whole body up (with a straight back).

I don't know if this helps...


But I think Lounge's post was a good one. ^^

[Beckmeisterrr]

I definitely agree with the earlier posts saying that you use your quads and gluts to get up. I've been taught to rise from seiza, and any other kneeling/sitting type of position by (i) squeezing thigh muscles (ii) clenching bum muscles *giggles* and (iii) breathing out.

As for differences between boys and girls: it could be attributed to the fact that we have wider hips and (often) bigger bums. Personally, I see it as my anchor. Some of us may also have less developed lower body muscles. I know that is one part of my body that I have to constantly work on.

[Lounge]

I just have a fat arse that sticks out ;)

[rottunpunk]

dont worry lounge everyones arse looks big in hakama.thats why they are traditionally black or navy in the modern day world, so it give the illusion of sleekness...or summit... :D
tried getting up, i do tense where you said.
im sure ill get it sorted out at the scotland seminar on t'weekend if not before.
may have to resort to bokken down the back method though-ho hum.
so, the second part of my question, have you ladies found anything that needs to be adapted from the male way of doing things?
for instance tsuki-ing behing at chest height where the boobies get in the way?
or just being better at cutting as we arnt as upperbodily butch as the boys?
i appreciate your views
:p

[lucy]

so, the second part of my question, have you ladies found anything that needs to be adapted from the male way of doing things?
for instance tsuki-ing behing at chest height where the boobies get in the way?


You mean like in tsukaate, in seitei, right? It's no "big" problem for me. Literally. :o

[Alison2805]

SQUATS!!! LOTS AND LOTS OF SQUATS!!! Do them concentrating on keeping your centre of gravity over your knees (ie hips, back straight). That would fix it I reckon. Even if it only gets you into the habit of doing it with the right posture. Besides, if you keep getting up the wrong way it puts a lot of strain on your back (according to a gym instructor I knew).

Boobs can get in the way if Im trying to reach right out (only happens if my distance is wrong anyway). Im trying to bend my doh at the moment so it curves more and fits better, hopefully it wont get in the way quite so much. E-bogu has instructions on thier website about how to do it without damaging it.

[Beckmeisterrr]

Yeah, I know what you mean Lucy. I'm with you on the I've-never-had-that-problem front. *cries* Never had problems with bogu either (back in the day when we still had naginata classes at our dojo).

In recent years, I've had the chance to observe a small number of high ranking women doing what they do best in iaido, jodo and kendo.

Here are a few things I've noticed:
In terms of kendo, they tend to be more technically correct. I attribute this to their early stages of training where they would have had to work on correct technique because sheer strength would not have worked in their favour. I found this particularly true when I was at the Australian National Kendo Championships. If you looked at the kyu graders (who were of very high standard! Yay Ali!) and lower dan graders you could tell that there was a tendency for the men to try and use strength and power, while the women were tending more to use a strong kamae to their best advantage, their cuts were cleaner and looked less like they were bashing. Some of the higher ranking women were very quick and I noticed that they didn't stay in tai-atari. I am guessing that they realised, through their years of experience, that if they stayed there for too long, they'll tend to get knocked around by the bigger boys. So they use speed to their advantage. My disclaimer at this point (so I don't get railed at by the 95% of the posters on this forum) is that not all the men played kendo in this fashion. There were a handful who had very good technique, and had the strength to back it up - a powerful combination indeed. Which is why we should all be hitting the gyms, like, now!!

The same could be said for iaido. I've recently accepted the fact that my cuts will never sound as lovely and loud as the boys', so I work on my posture, timing, footwork and correctness of each cut. In jodo, I've found myself up against some of the bigger blokes. After a few failed attempts at trying to 'move' them during kuri tsuke and tai-atari, I spoke to my sensei about it and since then, he's given me quite a few tips which work!

I wouldn't say that we are at a huge disadvantage. A good club instructor with experience teaching both sexes definitely helps. If you have a female instructor, or a female sempai to show you the ropes would be even better. There are no senior women at my club, but my sensei has been very helpful and very patient too!

[Alison2805]

I know what you mean Rebecca, even though I lost all my shiai, the dan women were the hardest to fight, youd blink and theyd be gone, with 3 flags in the air, leaving me standing there wondering what happened. The guys were hard to fight too, but spent more time pushing and shoving.

Having said that though, the hits werent soft! The last point scored on me left me wondering if my arm was broken. Beautiful kote! She even said sorry afterwards :] All you east coast girls were amazing to watch!!

[rottunpunk]

ive always found it more difficult to fight women, in judo or kendo (or atleast back when i did them)

i agree with you beckmeisterr, females do seem to look alot more technically correct than men (probably due to the lack of physical strength issue)
we have to use hara etc. because of lack of arm strength.
since working in a real ale pub ive built up a bit more arm muscle, and now im in the habit of powering through my cuts. its really annoying, i cant seem to do hara and no arms anymore-pooh.

on a plus side, ive been told my iai has an avatage because i have small feet. :D

dont worry about loud cuts though-if its too loud it means they are doing it wrong. its the pitch, and where the sound is thats important as they add indication as to whether the shape is correct, and where the power is.

thanks for your feedback folks. feel free to add more
:p

[ben]

A really good excercise for hara-awareness and core abdominals, as well as quads, is going down into sokyo from kamae to a slow ten count, so "ichi (start lowering your body)... ni... san... shi... go... etc". The slower the count, the better the workout. Try and do this without letting your upper body wobble about, and keep you back straight at all times. Then do it going back up.

HTH

b

PS - I thought, perhaps somewhat fancifully, that women might have a better sense of "hara" or "seika tanden" than men, since that is where the uterus is located (ie 2-3 inches below navel). Do any women here think that ?

[rottunpunk]

perhaps...or you just wanted to say uterus...tee hee :D
ive noticed i cant do hara when im having my monthlies though. anyone else find this?

thats sounds like a really good excercise ben. thanks for sharing...
...but have you got one that my poorly knees can manage? :D
:p

[ben]

In Aus we call them "utes"!

I could have said "womb" but that word's just wrong.

If your knees aren't good, find the point where pain starts in your knees. Then stop just before that point and hold for a slow count of 3, 5, 10 whatever's just past your comfy zone, then come back up slowly. Make sure you can distinguish between pain that is your muscles working hard and pain that is your knees doing bad things.

b

[rottunpunk]

okey doke will do.
might just do the whole thing for as long as i can anyway
whats a bit more pain?
its not like they can get more broke than what they are :D
:p

[Kat]

Yeah, I know what you mean Lucy. I'm with you on the I've-never-had-that-problem front. *cries* Never had problems with bogu either (back in the day when we still had naginata classes at our dojo).

In recent years, I've had the chance to observe a small number of high ranking women doing what they do best in iaido, jodo and kendo.

Here are a few things I've noticed:
In terms of kendo, they tend to be more technically correct. I attribute this to their early stages of training where they would have had to work on correct technique because sheer strength would not have worked in their favour. I found this particularly true when I was at the Australian National Kendo Championships. If you looked at the kyu graders (who were of very high standard! Yay Ali!) and lower dan graders you could tell that there was a tendency for the men to try and use strength and power, while the women were tending more to use a strong kamae to their best advantage, their cuts were cleaner and looked less like they were bashing. Some of the higher ranking women were very quick and I noticed that they didn't stay in tai-atari. I am guessing that they realised, through their years of experience, that if they stayed there for too long, they'll tend to get knocked around by the bigger boys. So they use speed to their advantage. My disclaimer at this point (so I don't get railed at by the 95% of the posters on this forum) is that not all the men played kendo in this fashion. There were a handful who had very good technique, and had the strength to back it up - a powerful combination indeed. Which is why we should all be hitting the gyms, like, now!!

The same could be said for iaido. I've recently accepted the fact that my cuts will never sound as lovely and loud as the boys', so I work on my posture, timing, footwork and correctness of each cut. In jodo, I've found myself up against some of the bigger blokes. After a few failed attempts at trying to 'move' them during kuri tsuke and tai-atari, I spoke to my sensei about it and since then, he's given me quite a few tips which work!

I wouldn't say that we are at a huge disadvantage. A good club instructor with experience teaching both sexes definitely helps. If you have a female instructor, or a female sempai to show you the ropes would be even better. There are no senior women at my club, but my sensei has been very helpful and very patient too!

What a great advice. Thank you very much!

[Whitemirror]

The womans place has traditionally been to cook and clean and attend to the duties of her man, not wield a sword Ms Joan of Arc

[Whitemirror]

like joan of arc did

[Kenzan]

You know, when attention is required, (as by all humans) positive attention is much more healthy than negative.
We all hope you try it sometime.

[rottunpunk]

and i wouldnt talk like that in a womans part of the forum either.
what with all the hormones that fly about-very bad :D
:p

[Beckmeisterrr]

and i wouldnt talk like that in a womans part of the forum either.
what with all the hormones that fly about-very bad :D
:p

Oh yeah... very bad indeed.... :paranoid:

[Ignatz]

I would suggest that a couple times a day, when nobody is looking of course, slowly go to sonkyo and get up. Adter a while do it twice then three times etc. if you do this say five or six times a day, every day, the muscles you need will develop. I have femurs that are about a mile long and none of this stuff was developed with me in mind so you have to adapt your body.

[rottunpunk]

cheers ignatz. im guessing thisll build up the knees aswell?
:p

[Awooga Guy]

Awooga Guy made a complaint about the sexist comment and he's been banned. Good stuff




That is all.

[rottunpunk]

yey. thanks awooga guy
:p

[Khelkhet]

for instance tsuki-ing behing at chest height where the boobies get in the way?

I have this issue too! Same with doing some strikes. I have tried squishing them and binding them, but the blasted things still get in the way :P And there's a new guy in the class who's about 9 or 10 who nearly cracks up every time I do a strike and have to adjust to accomodate the boob factor.

[rottunpunk]

i saw these plastic chest covers in a martial arts shop the other day. i think theres a thread in here somewhere about chest protectors too. maybe you can wear one of those?
mine arnt big enough to get in the way of cutting, but theyre too big to tsuki across the chest.
saya biki ive recently found may differ because of extra ribs and more hips. though it may just be me doing it wrong.
forgot to welcome you to the forums, sorry :nervous:
:p