women hachidan?

[mark]

Sorry girls, I did not know were to post this one.

I was recently talking to a fellow kenshi who mentioned that she did not think there were very many women who were nanadan, and no women had even been granted hachidan. Is this true?

[Lone Kitten]

first off, yep, this is the right place to post this... that's what this forum is for!

I distantly remember my sensei saying that there had never been any women hachidan (something i'm sure all of us aspire to), which is interesting. I would have thought there would be some, seeing as its scientifically proven that women live longer than men anyway, it's a good point, does anyone know of any?

[rottunpunk]

hachidan in kendo i know not.
but in mjer theres mrs yabe sensei. and she rocks.
:p

[mingshi]

I distantly remember my sensei saying that there had never been any women hachidan (something i'm sure all of us aspire to), which is interesting. I would have thought there would be some, seeing as its scientifically proven that women live longer than men anyway, it's a good point, does anyone know of any?
Judging on pre/post-war education available for women in Japan, it's not too difficult to understand why women cannot achieve the highest rank as fast as men could in the older generation.

Kendo is pretty male dominated. According to AJKF, only 28% of the registered kendo population in Japan is female. A few years ago I was told there's only 30 or so female nanadan. If hachidan pass rate is 1% then you'll expect only 1 out of 1000 female would be able to make hachidan.

[nikozamo]

i think the problem is in the other hachidans (males) because the ``male domination`` in kendo... i think they just dont want a woman hachidan... and can be the same for :``gaijin hachidan``??? at last the examinators habe the last word. so in conclusion, maybe in the future (early or not) the womans and gaijins will can be hachidan (this is a little resume of a conversation with a friend)

[Newbie]

We had a female nanadan visit our dojo earlier this year and our sensei told us outright that no women had made hachidan but a few were going to go for it.

Good luck to them! Yay! :D

[mark]

We had a female nanadan visit our dojo earlier this year and our sensei told us outright that no women had made hachidan but a few were going to go for it.
Good luck to them! Yay! :D

I suspect that most if not all women nanadan that are allowed to test, do so on a regular basis. I wonder if they end up testing with the men or if they are paired with other women when possible?

[Andy_Watson]

Sorry if this is just referring to kendo but I know of one or two female jodoka who will be up for 8th dan in the next few years and given their history I would say it is quite likely they will get it.

[tgsfg]

There is no non-Japanese hachidans? Not even Korean or Chinese?

[neko]

i have also heard there are no woman hachidan.
but while in kyoto this may, i saw a woman try for it. i also saw a female gaijin test for her nanadan. :) for some reason i want to say she was from france.

[Karaken]

There is no non-Japanese hachidans? Not even Korean or Chinese?

There are plenty of 8 dan in korea. They are not subject to AJKF.

[tgsfg]

There are plenty of 8 dan in korea. They are not subject to AJKF.
Are they still part of the IKF though? Is the KKA test just as hard as the AJKF? In order for them to take 8 dan test, doesn't the IKF require you to have 8 dan examiners? So I'm thinking that if there are 8 dans in other countries, the first ones would have had to take the test at Japan first no?

[Budo Angel]

Hi in Kendo there aren't any, I concur with the figures from you guys.

I was introduced a couple of years back to a Japanese 7 dan, and the hanshi (male teacher) I was with, whispered in my ear, this woman nana-dan is one of the potential candidates for GETTING the 8 dan in Kendo, because a) she was still young enough and b) consistently active in Kendo (ie. no 'career' break, kids break etc) c) just very very good.

ps. Yes I think we're all talking about AJKF.
pps. Jenny, dont' go on "typical pass rates" - when the first woman is ready, it will be momentous and it will be granted, rather than saying 1000 women would need to try, you're right about 30 ACTIVE women 7 do exist, and some of their 'cards are marked'. :rambo:

[ben]

There is no non-Japanese hachidans? Not even Korean or Chinese?

The Koreans, like the USAicans, grade their own.

Apologies for contributing to thread drift.

Back OT, I think it would be interesting to have access to a database of kendo practitioners around the world: just their name, age, grade, and nationality.

b

[Newbie]

but I know of one or two female jodoka who will be up for 8th dan in the next few years

Oh man, that rocks!

:D

[Neil Gendzwill]

A friend of mine is lucky enough to count Keiko Fukuda (http://www.judoinfo.com/fukuda.htm) as one of her sensei. Judo 9 dan, for those who haven't heard of her.

[mark]

A friend of mine is lucky enough to count Keiko Fukuda (http://www.judoinfo.com/fukuda.htm) as one of her sensei. Judo 9 dan, for those who haven't heard of her.

Is the 8th dan in judo as rare as those in kendo? Also, are non-Japanese 8th dan + also non-existent as in kendo?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think 8 dan is less rare in Judo. We have 6 in Canada, one of them named Raymond Damblant so I'm guessing he's not Japanese. I'm not sure if they were awarded by Judo Canada or in Japan or if there is even the same controversy as there is in kendo over who awards dan. I do know they stop physically testing around godan.

They are still giving out 10th dan. Three men were given that rank at the beginning of this year, the first time so many at once. It had been 22 years since the last one and only 15 have been awarded in total.

[rottunpunk]

that ladies coool
last time i knew there were only two or three 9th dan judoka in britain, though that was some years ago.
and they were all male.
one was my teacher and he was awarded it honourifically (i.e not through fighting)
:p

[mark]

I do know they stop physically testing around godan.


Uh? How do they give higher dans? Is it a theoretical essay type thing to demonstrate their understanding of fimnner points, a new contribution the MA, an overarching contributionn, or something else? Can you skip over grades or get accellerated promotions if you do something really remarkable?

Sorry for the sidetrip, I will stop after this.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Judo Canada has the requirements here (http://www.judocanada.org/about/grading/syllabus.pdf). Seems after godan, the requirement for examination is optional at the discretion of the board, but if required it's always the same 3 sets of kata. Plus they have minimum time in grade and points accumulations, which really are just metrics for contributions to judo.

I note they call 7th dan "shichidan" which seems really weird to me.

[rottunpunk]

mr petherbridges was from outstanding contribution.
thats all i know im afraid.
i stopped after getting to brown belt in the junior grades and crossing over to nikyu due to lack of people to fight in the north. there simply werent enough females in my grade group to fight. and if there were they were all huge.
that and iai came along :D
:p

[Kitsune]

Well, I know that there are not women hachidan in Japan cos Womwn turn into other interests when they grow up (marriage, working, babies, etc) So it's about their culture that they not get that far in kendo life.

The other thing I don't know is that we, as foreign can do the hachidan test in Japan. That would be an intersting thing to know.

[Budo Angel]

Like the first woman 8 dan, the first westerner (by that I mean not Japanese or Korean origin, no offence intended) 8 dan, will be more than just ability on the day, it will be "a card that is marked", and someone young enough to try more than once, and importantly young enough to get "old" into the hachi dan role... that's what I heard...issue is who will that westerner be...? Interesting on both counts (Japanese woman & Western man)

[sainueng]

The other thing I don't know is that we, as foreign can do the hachidan test in Japan. That would be an intersting thing to know.

There has been at least 2 people outside of Japan who passed the hachidan test in Japan. They may both be of Japanese decent though. I know Takagawa sensei of Detroit USA recently passed the test in Japan. It was pretty big news here. :) You pretty much have to be fluent in Japanese to pass the test though, from what I hear.

[Kiki]

I wonder if they end up testing with the men or if they are paired with other women when possible?

I was lucky enough to watch some hachi dan testing in Kyoto two years ago. There were at least two women testing and the one I saw went against men.

Seems all the U.S. candidates make pilgrimages to Japan for the hachi dan testings. Don't think there would be a Hachi dan test in U.S. for a long time because so many Hanshi Hachi dan would have to be brought in from Japan. BTW I heard Tagawa sensei was "like a demon" he was so "on" the day he passed.

My friend's dojo in Chiba has a nanadan female and she will eventually be eligible for testing. She is very skilled, youthful and strong and lucky enough to have a Hachi dan sensei. I forgot their names but they had just returned from visiting dojos in Scandinavia when I meet them.

It's only a matter of time.:)

[chidokan]

I met last years all Japan ladies iai champion on my last trip...nanadan and young as well. I reckon she'll get it, but how long it will take could well be another matter, which may or may not depend on her skill. Sad but true given the attitudes from the old guys over there. There is also some 'political' appointments based on Tokyo and Kyoto for instance. If a hachidan in Kyoto dies, and there are entrants from Kyoto up for grading, even if you were a megastar from Tokyo, one of the Kyoto guys would get it over you....such is life in the grading sphere. Personally I would rather be accepted as someone who knows his stuff, grade irrelevant, than someone who has got a grade because his local hachidan died...
At that level its all irrelevant anyway. In fact thinking about it, once you hit godan I think there is a more than fair chance you will just keep going anyway! Get good enough and people know who you are as well....

[MartialArtsGirl]

Thats strange. I thought I had asked my Sensei if there were any female hachidan (and I thought he said yes, there was one in Japan.)

Maybe I was wrong? (maybe I said nanadan instead and thought I said hachidan?)

Still I could have sworn that I asked about that...

[Anime12478]

Keep in mind that the thread is almost 3 years old, so things might have changed since then.

[Chaby]

I think it's about thirty nanadan and none hachidan . . .

[b8amack]

Am I the only one who thinks the hachidan grading is rigged, anyway? Not that it matters, since I'll never get it!

[rfoxmich]

Judging on pre/post-war education available for women in Japan, it's not too difficult to understand why women cannot achieve the highest rank as fast as men could in the older generation.

Kendo is pretty male dominated. According to AJKF, only 28% of the registered kendo population in Japan is female. A few years ago I was told there's only 30 or so female nanadan. If hachidan pass rate is 1% then you'll expect only 1 out of 1000 female would be able to make hachidan.

There's a problem with that arithmetic.. 1% is by definition 1 out of 100.

[Tort-Speed]

To: Jenny Wan (Ming Shi?) What's Eda Chen's rank now? She may be able
to make it, hai-maiya!

[Budo Angel]

Wow revival of an old thread... well assuming you folks are talking about hachi dan for KENDO...same assumptions as before: has to be woman 7 dan, who is still YOUNG enough to a) not only make attempts, but b) give something back ... as in be a good role model, it won't be on just Kendo alone, not at this level.

If you're talking hachi dan within ZNKR per se, then there are Iaido and Jodo hachi dans already I think... does that count here though ??? (any more than bringing up other budo like Judo...where criteria is very different scale/rules).

Assuming its within ZNKR system, as in you do a proper grading, no 'serving time' rating... then please correct me... who is the hachi dan woman for Kendo ??

[Henry Jones Jnr]

Christina David is on her way isn't she (well nanadan)

[MartialArtsGirl]

Like the first woman 8 dan, the first westerner (by that I mean not Japanese or Korean origin, no offence intended) 8 dan, will be more than just ability on the day, it will be "a card that is marked", and someone young enough to try more than once, and importantly young enough to get "old" into the hachi dan role... that's what I heard...issue is who will that westerner be...? Interesting on both counts (Japanese woman & Western man)

I guess in all things of this sort, the last in line will probably be the western woman. I find it hard to believe that a western woman would make haichidan before the Japanese woman or the western man.

[xvikingx]

who is the hachi dan woman for Kendo ??
Here's a complete list:

#0) NOBODY

[MartialArtsGirl]

Here's a complete list:

#0) NOBODY

I'm assuming this isn't due to discrimination, but rather a lack of interest in Kendo for Japanese women? (i.e. less women, less of a chance that they'll make it to hachidan?)

Also, could it be that there was discrimination decades ago, but not now? (Yet it takes sooo long to get to hachidan that that sort of thing has an effect?)

Just wondering...

[babayaga]

I'm assuming this isn't due to discrimination, but rather a lack of interest in Kendo for Japanese women? (i.e. less women, less of a chance that they'll make it to hachidan?)

Also, could it be that there was discrimination decades ago, but not now? (Yet it takes sooo long to get to hachidan that that sort of thing has an effect?)

Just wondering...

Yes, it is almost certainly due to discrimination. Whether it is conscious discrimination or institutional, discrimination is a fact of life.

I've just quit judo because of it.

-Beth

[JByrd]

Also, could it be that there was discrimination decades ago, but not now? (Yet it takes sooo long to get to hachidan that that sort of thing has an effect?)


There most certainly is discrimination now, though I can't say how widespread it is. I have a woman friend in japan who was pressured to quit kendo because the men around her think kendo is not appropriate for a woman. She now practices a koryu mostly focused on naginata because she didn't want to quit budo. It really pisses me off to think about it, she is a fine kendoka who helped me a lot.

[slidercrank]

I have a woman friend in japan who was pressured to quit kendo because the men around her think kendo is not appropriate for a woman.

But are those men around her in her family / social circle? Or in her kendo dojo? There's a big difference there.

Former implies that your friend are unluckily stuck with some men who are stuck in pre-1945 period. Tragic, but an individual case. Latter implies that there are Japanese kendo practitioners who don't want women in the dojo, and by extension, kendo as a Japanese-male-dominated institution is not woman-friendly.

[MartialArtsGirl]

Yes, it is almost certainly due to discrimination. Whether it is conscious discrimination or institutional, discrimination is a fact of life.

I've just quit judo because of it.

-Beth

What kind of discrimination lead to you quitting Judo?

[babayaga]

What kind of discrimination lead to you quitting Judo?

Here's how the discrimination manifests:

There is a pro-competition bias in much of judo. Despite Kano Sensei's original vision that judo was to be a vehicle for physical and moral education, judo has come to be largely viewed as a sporting activity. I've been told that, "a non-competitive shodan is no shodan." Promotion guidelines in the major organizations (at least in the United States) largely favor those who are successful in competition. Not just those who put themselves out there and try, but those who win matches. And at least in the USJF, it's not just any matches: it's only matches where your opponent is the same rank or higher. For example, I actually have a winning (though meager) competition record. However, I have absolutely no points toward promotion, because none of those wins were against someone of the same rank or higher.

There's no credit for "fighting spirit" in judo.

So, because I have no points, according to the organization I'm a non-competitor. So as a non-competitor my minimum time in rank before I'm eligible for promotion is 50% greater than someone who gets points. And that person who gets points might be the judo version of a one-trick pony: they've got one devastating combination they just keep shooting until it hits, and that's how they win. Of course, there are other criteria that go into promotion, but often as long as someone hits the points they need, they get bumped up.

That's the competition bias. Here's how it segues into gender discrimination, and people (except the women who are affected) are largely ignorant of this.

My dojo goes to a competition. We bring seven guys and three girls. In total there are about 50 male competitors at the tournament. The total number of women?

Three.

The organizers ask if we mind fighting each other, since we're dojomates. I say that we don't really have a choice if we want any matches at all. Duh! So I fight my sempai, who was like junior champion in Puerto Rico, and she nails me in about 15 seconds. And I fight my kohai, who at least makes it a match, and I win with a golden point. Both these gals have at least 15-25 pounds on me (at 125, it makes a difference).

I have no points for winning the one match.

The guys each have at least three matches, and as many as five, with a variety of other guys: some higher ranked, some lower ranked, none of whom they've met before in competition. It's a real test. For us gals, we randori with each other all the time. All we learn at the competition is how ruthless we can be with each other—or how ruthless we don't care to be.

I can keep going to events, but in reality the chances of me ever getting any points toward promotion are slim, and as an over-40 I'm risking injury each time, which might impact my ability to support my family. There are just not enough women doing judo, and the ones in competition are low enough rank so if I beat them I get nothing, or if they're higher than me are serious competitors against whom I get no points either. I can't effectively randori at the dojo to improve my match skills, because most of the partners available to me are simply unsuitable due to differences in size and experience. What I would have to do in order to get points is travel far for practices and tournaments, and achieve some success against serious competitors.

To me, that's not judo.

There's one potential avenue of competition in which I probably could have success, and that's in kata. I love kata, though we did it so infrequently in my dojo that I don't even know all of the first kata. (We still did it way more than many other dojo.) However, actual competitions are also sparsely attended, and again I'd have to travel. And kata requires something else that I don't have: a partner.

Which brings me to the actual reason why I'm not on the mat anymore, and also dovetails into aspects which might be relevant to the kendo audience.

It seems there's a critical mass of women that's needed to keep women in the dojo. For about five years our dojo had two women: myself and another, just a few years older, who is my sempai by a couple of years. I received nikyu a couple of years ago. She has yonkyu, received about 2 and 1/2 years ago. About the same time she received that last promotion, we had an eager beaver of a guy show up and begin training in earnest. And by earnest, I mean showing lots of interest in competition and MMA tie-ins. He took out a few knees in randori early on, but he settled down some and has had some competition success since he joined. All the while my gal partner has been plugging away, making steady progress, going to competitions though they don't offer much to her, being really keen on learning everything that's thrown at her, and in general being a helpful and positive member of the dojo. And my chief practice partner.

This summer, the new guy was promoted to sankyu over her. He had been at yonkyu—the rank she's been at for over two years—for only six months.

I really believe that the sensei has no idea at all that by promoting the guy over her, he slapped my practice partner in the face. Really hard. He just doesn't have a clue. He's a pathological optimist. But the effect is that neither she nor I see any hope of gaining acknowledgment of our progress, which is not supposed to be measured only in terms of competition success. The message was, "Work as hard as you like, it doesn't matter unless you're going to tournaments." What would it have hurt if he'd promoted her first? If he'd held back the guy, to let him mature (in my honest opinion, the guy could use some tempering, though maybe that's my koryu experience talking). The guy feels terrible about his promotion, because he knows the other gal left over it. And because I no longer had a reliable practice partner, so did I.

In one fell swoop our dojo went from one with a solid, mature female presence (with the senior kyu-grade student most nights being me) with at least two, and sometimes as many as four women on the mat . . . to having no women. From an atmosphere which is immediately, intangibly welcoming to new women, to one in which one has to wonder why the women are absent. You need women to keep and attract new women. And judo needs women.

So that's my story of gender/age/aggression bias. The sensei involved would not normally be thought of as someone who has gender issues, but that just goes to show that even "nice" people (and he is really a very nice guy) can have a huge blind spot in regard to the discriminatory consequences of their actions.

One can do horribly sexist things, and not even know it.

A couple of final points:

1. If my arguments seem rather developed, I actually wrote a paper on gender/age/competition bias in judo for my critical thinking class about a year ago, before the whole promotion kerfuffle.

2. I had been in frequent talks about this issue at my dojo with the sensei and other yudansha for the last year. The yudansha get it. The sensei . . . well, you see the result. I also got to vent a bit with the president of the USJA about this issue recently. So the problem has had its chance to get worked out, and it hasn't. I put the story out there in the hopes that someone else can learn from it, and the parts that can be applied to kendo and other arts of this forum, can be so.

-Beth