Kumdo

[Ben F.]

I understand that Kendo was introduced to the Koreans during the occupation of Korea by the Japanese. Does anyone know what years that occupation covered?

Thanks!

[AlexM]

Korea was annexed from 1910 to 1945.

The fight "for" Korea was a bit previous to that and involved Russia and Japan. Think Russo-Japanese war of the early 20th century.

[Old Warrior]

This is a real "hot button" topic. The Koreans believe they have a "sword history" that predates that of the Japanese. But even the most ethnocentric of Koreans has to give credit to the Japanese for making it a competitive sport and creating the equipment.

I study Kumdo. Master Seong calls his school a "Kendo Academy". His position is that he is not a historian and only cares about the art itself. Other Kumdo people are not so relaxed in their thinking.

[Ben F.]

Thanks to both of you for the quick replies.

Old Warrior: Wasn't the indigenous sword style called haedong kumdo and isn't it still studied/extant? I seem to recall seeing something like that on some site.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The Koreans have a lot of revisionist history regarding kendo and it's kissing cousin history wise taekwondo (shotokan karate in disguise and mutated, also introduced during the occupation). Here are the various stories from radical Japanese POV through moderate to radical Korean:

1. Kumdo is kendo done by Koreans, anything related to korean swordsmanship is made up.
2. Kumdo is for the most part kendo done by Koreans, with some clubs recreating older Korean swordsmanship from historical texts.
3. Many clubs are doing kendo but some are doing authentic Korean swordsmanship (sort of the kendo/koryu thing).
4. Kendo is kumdo done by the Japanese, who borrowed Korean sword technology and technique.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence of a steady line of practice of older Korean sword arts to back up 3 or 4. There are some scrolls from the 15th c (I think) that show Koreans using katana which are referenced as "Japanese swords" in the accompanying text. It would be foolish to think that the Koreans never used swords or had their own techniques period, so I think number 1 is out the window. I'm going with #2 personally.

[Ben F.]

Thanks to both of you for the quick replies.

Old Warrior: Wasn't the indigenous sword style called haedong kumdo and isn't it still studied/extant? I seem to recall seeing something like that on some site.

[Karaken]

Here's a perspective from Korean. I can probably write a small book on the subject ( without any research ) but I'll try to be brief.

1. Chinese go way back with any sword or swordmanship. To think that Japan can get any sword or swordmaship from China without going thru Korea is like thinking you can get to NJ from Manhattan without going thru any bridges or tunnels.

2. In Chinese line, Do usually means one sided sword ( Nihondo - Katana ) Ken usually means double sided sword. And if you go to Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY, you can see very old Korean sword ( straight and double edged ) from Japan that is much older than any Japnaese Sword.

3. Legend has it that Japanese admired Korean steel sword so much when all they had was old bronze sword, they kidnapped Korean swordmaker and treated them very well and the art flourished in Japan ever since.

4. Koreans historically did not treat soldiers or swordmakers very well. Blacksmith belong to very low class of the society and swordmaker was not treated any different than normal blacksmith unlike in Japan. So swordmaking did not flourish in Korea.

Ok so much for sword..Kendo itself I believe was introduced by Japanese occupation. In fact, I don't believe there is a single Korean made shinai exist that is older than 1910. So, Kendo should have gone from Korea as soon as Korea was liberated from Japan in 1945 except many people who were policemen or educator ( two groups who often practiced Kendo ) under Japanese rule were hired back after the liberation. They continue to practice Kendo and the tradition of Kendo survived through colleges and police gym. In fact, until very recently ( last 30 years or so ) there were very few independent private kendo dojo in Korea. Also, law prohibited many things from Japan ( No Japanese movies or songs were allowed to be played in public )

Only recently, as people with memory of Japanese oppression get old and the relationship with Japan improved, Kendo started to flourish in Korea. There was also some soup opera that also helped to popularize the art as well. BTW, Kendo and Kumdo ( or Gumdo or Geomdo ) are only different pronunciations of same Chinese character means "Way of Sword".

Anyway, as many other things go in Korea, some people couldn't admit that they are practicing something Japanese, so they started this thoery of Kendo being started from Korea. Did Korea have sword before Japan? Yes. Did Korean have Swordmanship before Japan - you bet. But I don't think Korea has anything to do with Shinai or Bogu..

Oh well, that's my 2 bucks.. Any questions?

Center - wherever it started, it should end up in center.

[iwatekenshi]

It was introduced or forced during the occupation, just like everybody had to do in Japan before and during the war or at least when the militarists took hold of education.
It was part of the KOKUTAI ideology, i.e. 'national essence'. Occupied Korea was subject to it as well. Kendo was part of that ideology.


PS There are plenty of books written about it. John Dower and Ian Buruma are some authors who write about the subject.

[iwatekenshi]

Sorry, I meant that those authors talked about the kokutai ideology in their books. They are not kendo authors. However kendo was a means to instill this ideology and the Japanese spirit and race.

Nasty thinking.

[Karaken]

Originally posted by iwatekenshi
Sorry, I meant that those authors talked about the kokutai ideology in their books. They are not kendo authors. However kendo was a means to instill this ideology and the Japanese spirit and race.

Nasty thinking.

Those nasty things started seriously around 1938 when Japan was starting to lose the war. However, there was a kendo tournament going on between Korea and Japan in 1896 and the sport continue to develop among soldiers and police academy as well as Educational instituions. It even became a part national sports competition held yearly. Ironically, the Korean National sports committee which was promoting sports including Kendo was desolved by Japanese occupation government in 1938. So, I can only assume that Kendo was doing very well until then voluntarily but not so after 1938 because it was considered as a part of kotukai which forced Korean people to cut their traditional long hair and change their names to Japanese Style.

Well let's not go thru the whole history. FYI, official Japanese occupation of Korea was from 1910 to 1945.

Center - know it and do it.

[dorkusxmaximus]

yeah it's true that the swords had to go through korea in order to get it to japan, but the curved swords are totally japanese.

[Karaken]

Originally posted by dorkusxmaximus
yeah it's true that the swords had to go through korea in order to get it to japan, but the curved swords are totally japanese.

Not really, curved sword was developed long before it got to Japan, in fact, there was a famous sword with a circle at the end of the handle that lasted long in China and Korea. What Japanese did with nihondo ( katana ) is to fold and melt together two different metal to make a sword that is sharp as well as strong. Which was a choice in Korea and China not a combination in one sword.

Center..

[cazoo]

um...it should be nihontou not nihondo

[LNGUYEN]

Believe it or not, Sanmai or folding two pieces of steel together had been developed long long time ago in China

[mero]

Talk about a pot calling a kettle black. That's a pretty proposterous claim. Japanese I've met who espoused these views tend to be your run of the mill Japanese Revisionists. That's a fact. Various martial arts schools existed in Korea well before introduction of Karate to Japan in 1930's. As karate became popular in mainland Japan, Koreans with training in Korean martial arts who were in Japan during this time were also exposed and trained in Okinawan karate. In post-occupation times there were various Korean schools that were hodgepodge of various styles. Taekwondo was created by government for training Korean military by masters of various schools. Mind you that the name of karate was changed from way of chinese hand to way of empty hand at bequest of mainland journalists.

In any case, similarities between tkd and karate are slim in practice.


The Koreans have a lot of revisionist history regarding kendo and it's kissing cousin history wise taekwondo (shotokan karate in disguise and mutated, also introduced during the occupation). Here are the various stories from radical Japanese POV through moderate to radical Korean:

1. Kumdo is kendo done by Koreans, anything related to korean swordsmanship is made up.
2. Kumdo is for the most part kendo done by Koreans, with some clubs recreating older Korean swordsmanship from historical texts.
3. Many clubs are doing kendo but some are doing authentic Korean swordsmanship (sort of the kendo/koryu thing).
4. Kendo is kumdo done by the Japanese, who borrowed Korean sword technology and technique.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence of a steady line of practice of older Korean sword arts to back up 3 or 4. There are some scrolls from the 15th c (I think) that show Koreans using katana which are referenced as "Japanese swords" in the accompanying text. It would be foolish to think that the Koreans never used swords or had their own techniques period, so I think number 1 is out the window. I'm going with #2 personally.

[Caveira]

1. Chinese go way back with any sword or swordmanship. To think that Japan can get any sword or swordmaship from China without going thru Korea is like thinking you can get to NJ from Manhattan without going thru any bridges or tunnels.

Actually can´t you with a ferry boat??

[Hai_hai]

Actually can´t you with a ferry boat??
The Staten Island ferry transports people from Staten Island to Manhattan.
A person could take a helicopter, a boat or swim from Manhattan to NJ.

[Hai_hai]

Not really, curved sword was developed long before it got to Japan, in fact, there was a famous sword with a circle at the end of the handle that lasted long in China and Korea. What Japanese did with nihondo ( katana ) is to fold and melt together two different metal to make a sword that is sharp as well as strong. Which was a choice in Korea and China not a combination in one sword.

Center..
The damascus process that involves folding several layers of metal together made the blade more flexible, not stronger, because one of the metal layers was a softer steel. This made the blade less brittle. Creating damascus steel is not unique to Japan.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You're mistaking the folding process with the welding process. The Japanese method of folding steel is not the same as damascus. The Japanese smiths folded their blades basically because the steel was so crappy. Through the process of folding, the homogenized the steel and controlled the carbon content. Then they would weld together steels of different types. A common construction would be to weld a piece of harder steel around a core of softer steel. The jacket steel allows the blade to take an edge, the softer core steel allows the blade to flex and absorb punishment. But the famous thousands of layers do not alternate hard and soft.

If you're really interested in this stuff, I recommend "Craft of the Japanese Sword" by Yoshihara and Kapp.

[mero]

Hey Neil, I thought folding of steel is done during welding no?

As for what "folding of steel" means, from what I know "Damascus steel" is a type of steel with controlled balance between hard and soft either by folding steel(to harden) or adding impurities(to soften). This technique is also called pattern welding. Isn't this the technique used for Nihonto steel?

I think Karaken and Hai may have the terms a bit jumbled up but I'd have to agree with them. This techniques were used by Japan's neighbors and all around the world in fact.


You're mistaking the folding process with the welding process. The Japanese method of folding steel is not the same as damascus. The Japanese smiths folded their blades basically because the steel was so crappy. Through the process of folding, the homogenized the steel and controlled the carbon content. Then they would weld together steels of different types. A common construction would be to weld a piece of harder steel around a core of softer steel. The jacket steel allows the blade to take an edge, the softer core steel allows the blade to flex and absorb punishment. But the famous thousands of layers do not alternate hard and soft.

If you're really interested in this stuff, I recommend "Craft of the Japanese Sword" by Yoshihara and Kapp.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hey Neil, I thought folding of steel is done during welding no?

As for what "folding of steel" means, from what I know "Damascus steel" is a type of steel with controlled balance between hard and soft either by folding steel(to harden) or adding impurities(to soften). This technique is also called pattern welding. Isn't this the technique used for Nihonto steel?

I think Karaken and Hai may have the terms a bit jumbled up but I'd have to agree with them. This techniques were used by Japan's neighbors and all around the world in fact.
Nihonto are not pattern-welded. The folding process, where the billet is folded over and hammered between 10-16 times, is not intended to produce patterns but rather to homogenize the steel. The welding part happens when two or more such billets, already folded, are welded together to form the rough sword. I'm sorry, I don't have the technical language to accurately describe the differences between this process and damascus. A quick search over at sword-forum shows a thread (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32085&perpage=25&highlight=damascus%20tamahagane&pagenumber=2) that describes the differences. I'm sure a little creative searching over there could reveal more info.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Hey Neil, I thought folding of steel is done during welding no?

As for what "folding of steel" means, from what I know "Damascus steel" is a type of steel with controlled balance between hard and soft either by folding steel(to harden) or adding impurities(to soften). This technique is also called pattern welding. Isn't this the technique used for Nihonto steel? Pattern welding is different than damascus steel, which is in turn different from the folding I think Neil was referring to. What is referred to as damascus steel is two or more types of steel or other suitable metals (titanium and nickel are sometime used now) which are combined in some pattern, most often in layers, which if folded then may result in alternating layers of harder and softer steel depending on the types of steels used. Modern custom knife makers sometimes do it for decorative purposes, even putting complex patterns into the metal sometimes, once Blade magazine had a knife with a blade made of damacus of Norte Dame logos! But that's a modern technique, old damascus was in layers. Layered damascus has a wood-grain like appearance if the the layers are left thick enough to be easily visible to the naked eye. Anyway this billet is uniform in the sense that it is layered the same throughout, even if alternating layers are different. A blade made from this billet would not be referred to as pattern-welded, but as a damacus steel blade.

Pattern welding is the process of constructing a blade using different type of steel for different parts, it was used in Japan to produce a blade with a harder edge and a more flexible back, but usually isn't called that, it is just sort of assumed that the nihonto is constructed of different types of steel, so it goes unmentioned. Pattern welding was used in many other places as well (This is also discussed under a thread called "nihonto and pattern welding" in the lounge area) http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2968. In fact when somebody outside the Japanese martial arts world says "pattern-welded" they are usually talking about European blades, though it was also used in many other places. A pattern welded blade is not uniform in that different parts of the blade are made of different types of steel E.G. the edge is different steel than the spine of the blade. You could pattern weld a blade out of different types of damascus steel, or combine damascus and uniform steel elements into a pattern welded blade for that matter.

As Neil mentioned, most of the folding Japanese smiths did was to take a piece of the crummy, inconsistent steel available to them and get a consistent piece, they also adjusted the carbon content by various techniques during the process. Then two or more suitable pieces of steel produced by folding would be pattern-welded together to form a blade.

[mero]

Thanks for info. But I had some more questions for personal clarification.

1. Regardless of what you call it, is the technique of folding of metal to purify impurities out of metal unique to Nihonto?

2. Technique of using different metal for harder edge and softer core unique to Nihonto?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think no to both questions but I'm not sure. Really, your best bet is to do a little digging over on swordforum - they have way more experts on the technical side of sword construction, and from a variety of different traditions.

[JSchmidt]

Thanks for info. But I had some more questions for personal clarification.

1. Regardless of what you call it, is the technique of folding of metal to purify impurities out of metal unique to Nihonto?

2. Technique of using different metal for harder edge and softer core unique to Nihonto?
The vikings used similar techniques, although not quite as refined as the Japanese (Also a few hundred years earlier).
It was only with modern metallurgy examinations that they learned how to re-create viking swords of same quality (based on same raw materials).
Also (This is of a rather vague memory), I believe that there was a specific type of arabian sword that was comparable to Japanese swords, which was highly sought after by the crusaders.

Jakob

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Thanks for info. But I had some more questions for personal clarification.

1. Regardless of what you call it, is the technique of folding of metal to purify impurities out of metal unique to Nihonto?No, although it was probably used more there than most places because of the type of smelter they used. I can't remember the name of it now, but the type of smelter they used produced a bloom (the couple-ton gob of scale, fuel ash, pig iron and fragments of steel of various qualities that resulted when they broke the smelter open) which was a mish-mash of all the stuff mentioned above, they would break chunks off it with sledgehammers then throw them in cold water while still hot from the smelter, then smash them some more with the sledgehammers to break them into small pieces. From this mess of shards, the sword smiths would then pick out pieces suitable for sword-making, so what they started with was basically some buckets of relatively small bits of steel. From these small bits, selected for the desired qualities for a certain blade component, and therefore similar, but not exactly the same, they had to form uniform billets for the various blade components, which took quite a bit of work. I'm not a smelter expert, but I believe the types of smelters used, for example, across the way in China and Korea produced a more uniform bloom to being with, and therefore required less work(folding) to get the steel uniform enough to use.



2. Technique of using different metal for harder edge and softer core unique to Nihonto?no

[Stimpson J. Cat]

The vikings used similar techniques, although not quite as refined as the Japanese Some scholars would probably argue that point, I am nowhere near expert enough to judge.

Don't know if you read my post in the other thread, but the Vikings quit making pattern-welded/composite blades after developing techniques that let them make a better blade out of a uniform piece of steel than they could make by pattern-welding. The Japanese never switched, I have always wondered why the Vikings did and the Japanese didn't when they started with similar techniques. Maybe because of the different armor they were trying to overcome? Even then the Europeans wore armor that was probably more resistent to penetration and covered more of the body, maybe the uniform blade the Vikings went to worked better against that heavier type of armor? If anybody has heard anything about the reasons for that, please post it.



Also (This is of a rather vague memory), I believe that there was a specific type of arabian sword that was comparable to Japanese swords, which was highly sought after by the crusaders.

Jakobdunno, don't remember hearing of one, but that doen't mean they wasn't such a thing. The Arabs did use swords more comparable to the Japanese (curved blades designed for slicing, especially the scimitar) than the Europeans (straight blades, by that time usually needle pointed and stiff to punch through plate armor with a thrust). The Arabic kingdoms did have access to woortz steel from India, so they probably had a better raw material for swords.


Oh, of course I should have said slag instead of scale in the previous post.
Ugh, this is my third post today to this forum, I'll shut up now.

[mero]

I have to add... specifics of swordsmithing aside, Karaken's objection to dorkusmaximus' claim is right afterall.

[DanDan]

kum is just how ken is read in korean...basically everything is the same except the language and some kata