Developing seme

[Nishi]

I have been training heavily for my nidan exam, and somthing i have been spending alot of time on is "seme". I have been looking toward iaido for different ideas, and also, how jodan fighters apply seme, which i think is incredible.

I seem to be getting good results by fencing many different people, but this is benificial to kendo as a whole, and also keeping my breath stored deeply before cutting has a different effect on some of opponents. Also my posture/kamae, appear to play important roles in a potent seme

The question is, what approach are you taking towards developing your seme? Or do you believe its "just" years of experience!

[GMason]

Hi Dave,

This something I have been working on for the last year with varying results.

What I have been doing is trying not to be too busy, but come up from Sonkyo set myself and try to pressure the opponent, and then when the time is right Seme.

Also from what I have experienced and been told. I am trying to look for the right time to apply Seme. What I used to do was stand up and Seme straight away thinking that was enough.

But I think the correct time to apply Seme is an important factor.

I think Seme and how you apply it is a personal thing, depending on your style of Kendo.

......Canadian Flag already that's a bit premature ........ But your probably used to that by now......... :eek: :eek: :eek: .... Sorry mate:D

[Nishi]

Hey Gareth,
That type of pressure can be defined as a threat to me, i will admit that being threatend carries a certain amount of pressure with it, but my favorite example, 2 jodan fencers, who never cross shinai. The jodan fencer must still apply seme to break his opponents kamae, in this case he/she is looking to break jodan-no-kamae with seme in hopes that the seme will reveil an opening/suki and can then collect his/her cut, this is where the fight is won.

I feel seme from ai-chudan-no-kamae can be more phyisical, for example, as you enter you can drop your kissaki slightly and this will push your opponents shinai to your left, then, he feels pressure, again, a threat has risen, and may open further on his own as you complete the seme with an attack. But we have waza for this. So the question rises-

What is seme and where does pressence come in??????


____________________
Viva la Canada missuer Mason.

[JSchmidt]

Seme literaly translates to 'invade', which I've found useful to keep in mind.
At the basic level, it's a physical invasion. Small step/push forward along the center to disrupt the aite's kamae and force him to react.
(Note, I'm still very much learning this). For me, the foundation is in the footwork. A smooth movement forward from the hara, in balance. This foundation needs to be laid down first with basic practice: Small step, cut men. For me, the biggest change happened when I stopped crossing over feet when making the small step. The feeling when the opponent just goes down on his heel when you do seme and take the men, is sweet.
From there, it starts to become a little more esoteric/psychological and people start talking about doing seme with your presence/mind. A lot of it comes down to projecting of your self (presentation) and very subtle movements..this stuff is still beyond me. (Although a lot of presentation comes from confidence, which only really comes with experience.)
For jodan, it's a completly different kettle of fish. (For me, anyway). My seme rarely works (And it's annoying the hell out of me!) although it works just fine against ai-jodan...Again, I suspect, it comes down to footwork and presentation.
..Anyways..an awful long ramble where I really just wanted to say: Footwork.

Jakob

[Nishi]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Seme literaly translates to 'invade', which I've found useful to keep in mind.

I agree that this is useful to know, considering they could have called it "pressure" or "threat" and any other appropriate word you can think of.

I also agree that presentation is important as well, however, presentation (to me) is just a by-product of a solid kamae. (Not that you where saying its important to look cool JSchmidt);)

Mabye this is the importance that is placed on bettering yourself? Your own presentation. When i say presentation, i mean in the text that Mr.Schmidt has used, confidence, good kamae and an aura of ability(hey i like that one :D!!) I know kenshi that can not break my kamae with seme, and i also know kenshi who can destroy my kamae. But whats the difference between them? They are phyisically similar, both hold shinai, and the intent is the same????

______________________
I will address your pre-mature comments in the dojo Gareth-san...

[JSchmidt]

"But whats the difference between them?"

I'll bet you a pint that most of it is footwork.

Jakob

[alexpollijr]

I think so.


I'm approximately at the same step of development as nishi seems to be. Recently I started to wonder that seme lies more in footwork than in handwork. Agile footwork enables you to hit fast from issoku ito instead of the almost-chikama commonly seen I think. And that's what I'm actually trying to develop for the next shinsa.

- Alexandre

[GMason]

All,

I agree footwork is very Important, but there is also a certain something that is difficult to describe. There is a guy. He is very good, he done well inalot of local taikai.

His footwork is pretty much spot on and his technique is good, but his Seme not so good. There is just something lacking. I don't know if it's his will to break you or what but there is just something missing. I think he is just so detached fences. He doesn't really care what you do. He is just going to do what he wants (I wish I could do that.... But I suppose that's another thread altogether about Mushin etc....)

But I guess what I am trying to say is .... Yes you must have good footwork, you must have good kamae and a aura of ability ( I like that one too :D) But there has to be that cetrain something that says "I'm better than you, I'm going to cut you and you are Scum......." Sorry got carried away there but you know what I mean. You need to have that frame of mind that is saying I will break you. If you don't have this mindset, have a good Kamae and good footwork won't be enough......

Well that what I think anyway, any comments ??

[JSchmidt]

I know what you are saying, but for me it works opposite :). If I mentally fire up and think "I'm gonna cut you" I will signal everything 2 hours in advance, whereas if I detach myself, I can (occasionally) get it to work...but..if the footwork is solid, then maybe it could be the hands/direction?.
I was taught to 'push' towards either middle of the eyes or the throat. It should be a rather subtle movement (A fist length or so at max), while moving in.
We tended to do a fair amount of kihon from long distance, which (for me anyway), helped exagerating the mechanics.
Finally, seme isnt really 'required' until san-dan, so I wouldnt worry about it in terms of shinsa.
(Although the BKA works in mysterious ways in terms of gradings :D)

Jakob

[Charlie]

Good points made in this thread!

I myself am a ni-dan who will test for san-dan some time next year, so I think about this a lot, too.

I think footwork is a part of it, but I think it is more than that. I think a mental game is developed at higher levels of skill that is beyond the one we are playing, and I cannot tell you what it is or how it is played because I am not there either.

But I bet it's got a lot to do with "fighting with your legs" and not your arms, as the western fencers say. Lower body strength. Footwork, yes, but by that I mean a good foundation throughout, paired with proper, tsuki-focused kamae and good grip and tenouchi, and good eye contact and a strong sense of maai.

I am thinking out loud here, I hope it helps. It's what I have to work on, too. (One of the things!)

[Neil Gendzwill]

The difference between the guys whose seme works and those who don't is that their pressure is constant. This thread has been talking about footwork and "when to seme", that's all a beginners approach where seme is a step in before the attack. If you want to make it work, you have to develop a feeling of pressure, pressure, pressure so that your opponent is always thinking "he's coming, he's coming", but you don't go. Wait, wait, wait, pressure, pressure, pressure. *Then* you step in and he will (hopefully) break his kamae. Or don't step in - just wait until he can't take the pressure anymore and attacks you. This is your chance for debana men or kote or some other oji-waza.

[GMason]

Charlie,

I think your right about the mind game's.

It seems to me it is a little bit like doing Kendo Kata. There is a fine line between going through the motions and actually doing the Kata.

Seme is the same. Alot of people seem to go through the motions of Seme.....Cut. But probaly aren't actually doing Seme they are just doing it parrot fashion as they have been shown in Kihon (I have just had a whole buch of thoughts about this now I've mentioned it but I won't bore you with them).

Where as a more senior Kendoka will apply pressure, and take part in the "fabled and mystical" shinai converstaion that we all hear so much about.

I only started thinking about this conversation and seme properly about six months ago. Till then I thought I was doing it properly but recently, I have realised I haven't and probably won't for a long time.

Started to Ramble there sorry ...

[Nishi]

This just got interesting......

Here is one of my experience's...while standing from sonkyo i stepped forward to engage my opponent in ai-chudan(issoku). My opponent (4rthdan) was under my pressure, i could see and feel(thru shinai) that he was wavering as we stood there looking at each other, as i "seme'd", my opponent became very still (the opposite of what i was after)....the pressure was on me. Although i had moved in with my body(via the footwork) i was under tremendous pressure, i could smell debana-waza air. I moved back to issoku itto maai, but my kote had already been taken.

This is a great example of "that something". It wasnt footwork, beacause he didnt move, although his kamae was impressive, their was no real change. Like Gareth said mabye the essence of seme is mushin.......mabye its stubborn will!!

[Neil Gendzwill]

*shrug* his seme was stronger than yours - you didn't break his kamae, and you moved back. Just because you moved doesn't mean you were the only one applying seme in that situation.

[GMason]

Sound like he beat you with his spirit.

I have been told there are three types of Seme.

Seme with the Body, Seme with the Sword and Seme with the Spirit.

One way of looking at it would be that you Seme'd with the body, but he Seme'd you with his spirit. He simply knew what he wanted to do and had the spirit & ability to follow it through ???

I don't know if I'm reading to much into the situation.

[Nishi]

I do like Neil's points regarding constant pressure. I have had most of my success with seme when it has been constant.

One of my teachers said, "you should imagine a bubble between you and your opponent. Your job is to keep the bubble pressed between the two of you without breaking it....when it breaks something must happen. Your job is to decide "when" it breaks." This was how seme and the feeling of seme was taught to me.

[Charlie]

Nishi - very interesting!

I'm glad Neil jumped in, I was hoping he and/or some of the other sempai/sensei would, and he sets us all on the right path with his comments, I think.

I honestly think that what happens between kenshi through seme approaches the "mystical" because something very near telepathy happens. Now, I don't mean telepathy happens, a lot of what's mystical about kendo or any martial art can be explained in physical means - in this case, a sophisticated understanding of body language; but it is bloody uncanny, isn't it, the way a kenshi that can employ seme can own the match?

One thing I think that helps, and Neil commented on as well: if you think it, you will do it.

[Hongsermeier]

Nishi...good analogy. I"ll try to remember that. :cross_eye

[Flashman]

I'm new to kendo but I've crossed foils with folks on and off for nearly 40 years. During that time I've picked up what I was best explained to me as the concept of "dominance" and the "crease." (See, D. Weber, Flag in Exile -Honor Harrington Series, pp. 474-75).

"The dominance was the clash of wills, the war of personal confidence fought before the first blow was struck to establish who held psychological domination over the other. But the crease was something else, a reference to the tiny wrinkling of the forehead when the moment of decision came. Of course, crease was only a convenient label for an infinite set of permutations, for every swordsman announced the committment to attack in a different way. All fencers were taught to look for the crease, and competition fencers researched opponents exhaustively, before a match, for though the signal might be subtle, it was also constant. Every swordsman had one, it was something he could not simply train completely out of himself." ...
"But the true master of the sword was one who had learned not to rely on his enemy's weakness, but his own strength."

Seme seems to me to be like dominance but incorporating the concepts of timing and distance. It been my fencing experience, however, that it only works during the crease instant. Again, timing, distance and the concept of mind no mind are key to it as I see it.

[Nishi]

Neil, thanks for the input.....
The example of my experience was more to challenge earlier quotes regarding seme being based on footwork, hence the whole i moved he didnt i cracked he wacked story......

I do believe that seme deals with very raw feelings and reactions, and i can only speculate what they develop into......

[Hongsermeier]

Flashman...for someone new to Kendo I think you've got the concept right. :cross_eye

[Charlie]

That is a good analogy, the bubble. All too often I find the bubble has broken and no one (myself included) has done anything. Then it's too late!

This discussion reminds me of poker. Part of the game of poker is learning to read your opponent's "tells," the little charactersitic things they do with their body, face, hands, that tells you what's on their mind. Supposedly, most people have dozens of tells, and the professional poker player over time tries to minimize his tells, to shave them off layer by layer like spent skin. Discussion of kendo seme sort of feels like a discussion of poker tells.

Also, I have often felt that kendo is like a game of rock-scissors-paper. You make your play, and you either win, draw or lose.

That is, you cut men and he cuts at but misses kote; this is like you throwing rock and him throwing scissors.

You both cut in ai-uchi is like you both threw rock.

He picks off your kote while you miss men is like you threw paper and him scissors.

While I think the model is a good one, and has served me well, mentally, I think one must move beyond it to progress in kendo, and seme is key.

Again, thinking out loud.

[Nishi]

Flashman, i love it!

[Nishi]

I was just trying to put things into perspective regarding "dominance" and "the crease." I suppose that in translation to kendo, the dominance would be the initial struggle, "who", is breaking under pressure for example . The crease on the other hand would be something like debana, where you watch for "the movement within the movement".

I wonder if they approach seme in the same manner????

[Flashman]

Flashman...for someone new to Kendo I think you've got the concept right.

Thanks, my problem is not so much in understanding the concept of the sword, it's trying to make my 50+ year old body execute new techniques. But I'll get it, once I get my back foot pointed in the right direction. :D

[Nishi]

Originally posted by GMason

I have been told there are three types of Seme.
Seme with the Body, Seme with the Sword and Seme with the Spirit.


This is called ki-seme, and i'd only be guessing.

no comment,
no clue!

[Nishi]

Okay i'll take a guess....(ki-seme):D

My experience is along the lines of shin shin toitsu aikido (ki society), but with no major achievments to boast of. Now i can understand the effects of KI in aikido because you actually get your hands on somebody and throw them, and when the person throwing you is very relaxed and calm there movements become (from an aikido perspective) unhindered, or free. That is to say that the mind is controlling the body without nasty input from stressful emotions and tense muscle groups.

I can see how this is a beneifit to anybody doing any kind of physival activity, and i try to approach my kendo with this approach to ki in mind, but i am baffled as to how people "seme" with this relaxed state.

can anyone add to this? (ki-seme)

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by Charlie
...This discussion reminds me of poker. Part of the game of poker is learning to read your opponent's "tells," the little charactersitic things they do with their body, face, hands, that tells you what's on their mind. Supposedly, most people have dozens of tells, and the professional poker player over time tries to minimize his tells, to shave them off layer by layer like spent skin. Discussion of kendo seme sort of feels like a discussion of poker tells...

This reply has nothing to do with seme but poker.
The movie "Rounders" is a real look into professional poker playing, and it used professional poker players for technical advice. It's quite fun to watch.
Just playing by the cards and hoping for a good hand dealt to you is just gambling, and that is not how real/professional poker players play. If you can read your opponents tells, discern their fake tells, cover up your real tells in addition to sending fake tells, you can win regardless of the cards that are dealt to you. Also, professional poker players do not consider themselves to be gamblers. I'm not saying I'm a professional poker player. I'm actually pretty bad. But, I've met a professional poker player. Professional as in he goes to casinos and prey on amateurs as a way of income.

[Nishi]

Originally posted by Hai_hai


If you can read your opponents tells, discern their fake tells, cover up your real tells in addition to sending fake tells, you can win regardless of the cards that are dealt to you.

That is applicable to kendo, (maby not seme). I hear alot of sensie discuss similarities between kendo and other disciplines, my favorite is the gun fighters of the old west. The entire gun fight happens from a disctance, and there is the feeling of seme before the draw....very kendo!

______________
Rounder was cool by the way.....

The way of the cash....:D

[Nishi]

I have asked this question on the "shodan to nidan" thread, but i feel it applies here as well......

How close are you willing to move in on your opponent (Before hittin them). I am trying to determine if there is such thing as to close for seme.

Over the past week i noticed some opponents felt pressured in chikama'ai, and others seemed to break down in issoku ma'ai...
Where do you usually seme from and why?

[Hongsermeier]

Nishi....I don't know what the name is but I try to accasionally attack with the tips of the shinai about 2 inches apart. I works since I'm 6 ft. Kinda hard for shorter people. I find people usually don't expect it. Can't do it all the time though. I used it affectivly yesterday at our taikai. Got a very nice kote about 2 seconds into match. :cross_eye

[Charlie]

Well done!

I think kendoists learn to fight and seme from many distances, but of course we have our favorites. And yet, I have noticed that some of my sempai seem to simply adjust and attack from every distance. That said, I myself prefer issoku itto no ma-ai, one step, with the kensen just crossed, although I kind of like Hong's distance, as well (I'm not very tall, though).

[Sir Percy]

I used it affectivly yesterday at our taikai. Got a very nice kote about 2 seconds into match

I was there (in the audience) and got that on tape. Sankyo, hajime and flag! Just like that!

That was one of the rare kote that I saw rewarded. And did anyone in the kyu group get a doh strike awarded? I don't remember one.

[Hongsermeier]

One girl from Sho Tokyo did in our group. It was against a guy from Hi-desert. :cross_eye

[xvikingx]

Who was the guy with all the tattoos? Wasn't too impressed just wonder cause he didn't have a zekken.

[Hongsermeier]

He's a new guy from Chuo. I don't know how long he's been practicing. He's pretty enthusiastic(spelling?). I've done some keiko with him. :cross_eye

[Kiki]

Excuse me for going off track for a moment:

http://www.blackwavetattoo.com

I think he and his wife have been doing kendo for less than 6 months. At one time he represented the US in Saber Fencing. He and his wife sometimes come to keiko at our dojo. Very nice people and enthusiastic about kendo. Lastly, he’s an international famous Tribal tattoo artist.

How did he do on Sunday? - You can PM me

[Inouye02]

hey dont forget me brad , i gave you the tip on the guy you scored that lightning kote on....wahahahahaha..

actually if you tried it again , you probably would of got it again ..

[Hongsermeier]

Inouye...Lightning Kote....has a nice ring to it.

Yes, I must give you some credit for the hints you gave me during the day. Especially for my second match.. :cross_eye

[Nishi]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
I used it affectivly yesterday at our taikai. Got a very nice kote about 2 seconds into match. :cross_eye

The distance you reffered to is to'ma'ai, and you must have a good reach or a strong back leg to cut from there consistantly.

Was there a second point scored in your bout? Usually when a point is scored as quickly as your "lightning kote" your opponent can not recover there spirit for the second point. This more or less frustrates them and allows you to break their kamae very easily. Its kinda like they pressure/seme themselves.

Did you score a second point? Did you win the bout?

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Nishi


There is physical pressure (footwork, shinai, body) and there is a more philosphical aspect to what is called seme

Firstly 'correct distance to seme' - using the invade metaphor you cant do that from a close distance - youve already done it. If youre close in and havent attacked then that battle is already lost

Some people - Gibbo is a good example - can take a men cut from about half a mile away from the opponent but thats lot more to do with athleticism and the lack of preparadness of the opponent than seme

when you engage with your opponent you need to have good posture to be ready to attack as soon as the opportunity arises - whether you force it or it appears

you need mental composure to be able to translate good posture and preparation into attack at the right moment and you need to be alive to the inevitable interplay with the opponent

So, youre at 'tip to tip' distance, youre trying to pressure your opponent to make a mistake, youre forcing in and Bang ! you just got cut because you were so intent on making seme that you didnt react to the opponents state of preparation

Seme and making the opportunity is battle of wills and technique and its a fluid balance between them

another example step in with strong spirit and push on your opponents shinai to make an opening and Bang! he just took your kote - why ? better physical and mental preparation

So, how to seme ? have good posture, good technique, a confident and alert mental bearing and the intention to beat your opponent (and if ever get this right Ill be pleased ;-)

keep plugging away !

cheers

[JSchmidt]

"The distance you reffered to is to'ma'ai, and you must have a good reach or a strong back leg to cut from there consistantly."

That's where seme comes in. A short step in to take the center and whammo!. This is where the footwork comes in..you need to be ready to cut instantly after that short step, if the opportunity arises, but at the same time, it might be enough to trigger the opponent, so you need to be in a position to do oji-waza (be it debana, suriage, etc), so crossing over the feet wont work.


And...Gibbo used to be a long jumper, so that's where he gets his enormous reach from.

Jakob

[xvikingx]

Wow, less than 6 months? Now that is impressive. Hes got a strong kiai. Sorry for getting you off the subject. Thanks.

[Hongsermeier]

Nishi...Yes I won the match. I got a second point. I could tell he was rattled so I waited for an open men and got it a little later.
xvikingx...I think his kiai comes from confidence in himself. He got that before he started kendo. :cross_eye

[Inouye02]

he's a ex marine...

[Nishi]

Hongs...was your opponent showing signs of fear, like breaking kamae, swinging shinai wildly when he thought you would attack etc etc...??? What did you do to apply pressure for the second point, or did you wait for a self made mistake do to his lost composure?

[Hongsermeier]

He got kinda jumpy. Lousy kamae. I had one point, no pressure on me to get another. I just waited for him to make his own mistake, then took advantage of it. :cross_eye

[Nishi]

Originally posted by PhilMcLaughlin
Seme and making the opportunity is battle of wills and technique and its a fluid balance between them


I think that this is really important...i actually had to read this post several times to take it all in. I didnt change anything i was doing in keiko last night but again, my mental approach was altered, and i experienced some successful attacks again.

Any other feedback on this particular post by Mr McLaughlin would be appriciated, i think theres some experience here!

Cheers.

[Charlie]

BTW,

I have been working with seme a lot lately. I can't quite put into words my observations yet. Just trying to be conscious of it more.

[Hongsermeier]

Sir Percy

Forgot to ask earlier, but is there any way I could get a copy of your video? I like to watch my match's and see what I did wrong and try to work on it till the next Taikai. Usually the wife takes video, but she was working court A.

Thanks
Brad

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Originally posted by Nishi




Any other feedback on this particular post by Mr McLaughlin would be appriciated, i think theres some experience here!

Cheers.


Well, theres a lot of expereience of doing it wrong :-)

Theres a couple of points to make , firstly dont go mad over seme in the run up to the exam, its not what the judges are concentrating on for nidan (see the BKA website for a guide to grading requirements)

Secondly, according to the AJKF dictionary entry for Semeru

" To take the initiative to close the distance with full spirit" [...] "Examples include attack with the spirit, attack with the tip of the sword, attack with strikes. "This enables one to maintain a constant advantage over the opponent"

Its not just about step in and cut (though thats how we typically start learning it)

relax, try tobe fluid, enjoy the keiko and try to cut with full spirit and sutmei - eventually your seme will develop anyway

when do you take the nidan exam ?

[Nishi]

July 27th at Stoke. I was at Stoke last night (thursday) fencing with Steve and Brian (only small class though), we actually had 4 form do shin ken yu kai there , it was a good class.

I get to stoke, about once per six weeks, i believe we keiko'ed last time i was there. The rest of the time im in Preston (do shin ken yu kai), or manchester.

Im looking for others at the shodan nidan level to train against to help orientate myself for the exam.

[Sir Percy]

Hongs,
I'm trying to burn it to a DVD. If I can I'll send you one, otherwise I'll have to copy it to a VHS tape and send you one.
SPB

[Hongsermeier]

I'll take either one. Let me know what I owe you for it. :cross_eye

[PhilMcLaughlin]

Hi Nishi

yep I have a mental picture of you now

I wouldnt worry too much - Simon will be re taking nidan have a bash with him

for the grading;

good posture, big kiai and strong spirit

strong attacks men and kote men with good fumi komi ashi and ki ken tai

dont go mad - its not kakari keiko

dont get into the pattern of ai uchi attacking - if the opponent is having a mad minute then control it and maybe use counter techniques then, when he/she has to stop for breath thats your time to show your stuff

remember that grading is a demonstration of technical skill rather than a match or even keiko & the panel are looking for you to show the standard of attacking appropriate for nidan - not larrup your opponent :-)

cheers

[Nishi]

I noticed at the world kendo championships that the japanese players rarley stepped backwards, and hardly ever initiated the break from tai-atari. They appeared to press forward all the time keeping that threat applied constantly.

This helps me quite a bit, and it was a good example of how to stay connected to your opponent and preassure them into openings, mistakes and panic attacks.