Variation of Chudan.

[ahmed61086]

I have seen a few higher ranking sensei use a Chudan where there sword is pointed more to their right and their left hand is closer to their left hip, while still holding center, and their kote is covered while doing this. Does this Chudan have a specific name?

Well, besides that, I tried it one day, and now regular chudan just feels weird to me, so I have started useing this Chudan, and my sensei hasn't said anything..... yet. So now, I can still hold center, and break my opponents center, while not exposing my kote as often, but I dont want to work on this chudan if it is something that I shouldn't doing at this stage in my kendo. I have also been told that only high ranking kendoka use it after a lot of experience. So does anyone know why this chudan is used. Or any other details? And should I stop using it? Does anyone here use it? Ect? Thanks in advance.

[xvikingx]

Are you talking about seigan (http://www.halifaxkendo.org/images/kamae/seigan.jpg)?

[ahmed61086]

Well, isn't seigan used against jodan? This kamae I am speaking of is used against another Chudan player. And it is used as the specific kendoists Chudan.

[Genya]

I´ve also seen this kind of kamae. I think one guy from japan used it (can´t remember his name). It looks pretty cool to me and it really worked well for him.

[mark]

I have seen a few higher ranking sensei use a Chudan where there sword is pointed more to their right and their left hand is closer to their left hip, while still holding center, and their kote is covered while doing this. Does this Chudan have a specific name?

Well, besides that, I tried it one day, and now regular chudan just feels weird to me, so I have started useing this Chudan, and my sensei hasn't said anything..... yet. So now, I can still hold center, and break my opponents center, while not exposing my kote as often, but I dont want to work on this chudan if it is something that I shouldn't doing at this stage in my kendo. I have also been told that only high ranking kendoka use it after a lot of experience. So does anyone know why this chudan is used. Or any other details? And should I stop using it? Does anyone here use it? Ect? Thanks in advance.

The short answer .....
You should ask your sensei and not wait for him to catch you "cheating". At best you slowing your progress by wasting your attention on something that is not important at this time. At worst, you are creating a habit that will have to broken and corrected. In addition, he might have noticed it and decided not to say anything at this time because he/she believes you have more important problems to work on.

The long answer....
It sounds as if you are talking about a chudan that is customized to your body and playing style. I have met advanced players whose chudan has a left hand slightly to the left of center and the tip towards the left eye of their opponent.

I've had nanadan explain that everything from where they look, the width of their stance , the amount of weight on each foot at kamai, the ideal position of their left hand and the kensen, all depends on their body, how they feel on any given day, and their opponent.

If your basic chudan is not really really solid (3rd dan?) I think you will slow down your progress by trying to customize it. You have other things to work on, and this will only complicate things.

I have only been playing for 5 years and am shodan and I try really hard to stick to basics and constantly check to ensure that I follow what I am taught. I don't think there is a magic solution and that what I have to learn takes time. Besides, I suspect after years (decades?) of practice constantly correcting towards the basic style, your body will nevertheless find its position.

[The great I AM]

Its not so far out there. My sensei recommended it for me too, and its working well enough.

I don't go so far as a change that you would use against someone doing jodan, but I do move my left hand very slightly out and change the angle of my shinai so my kensen is still　in the centre. It helps me a lot with oji waza against kote, and being 6foot3 a lot of people go for my kote!

[Firebird]

The name of this chudan has escapes me right now but the hachidans I learned from recently all used this chudan. So your on the right track.
You might want to ask your teacher if he knows how to do it better though.
My understanding is that you slightly tilt the tip of your shinai towards the opponent's left eye. Not so that its out of center but....well you seem to understand it.
It really does help to dominate the center. Happy keiko!

[Inner_Silence]

The short answer .....
You should ask your sensei and not wait for him to catch you "cheating". At best you slowing your progress by wasting your attention on something that is not important at this time. At worst, you are creating a habit that will have to broken and corrected. In addition, he might have noticed it and decided not to say anything at this time because he/she believes you have more important problems to work on.

The long answer....
It sounds as if you are talking about a chudan that is customized to your body and playing style. I have met advanced players whose chudan has a left hand slightly to the left of center and the tip towards the left eye of their opponent.

I've had nanadan explain that everything from where they look, the width of their stance , the amount of weight on each foot at kamai, the ideal position of their left hand and the kensen, all depends on their body, how they feel on any given day, and their opponent.

If your basic chudan is not really really solid (3rd dan?) I think you will slow down your progress by trying to customize it. You have other things to work on, and this will only complicate things.

I have only been playing for 5 years and am shodan and I try really hard to stick to basics and constantly check to ensure that I follow what I am taught. I don't think there is a magic solution and that what I have to learn takes time. Besides, I suspect after years (decades?) of practice constantly correcting towards the basic style, your body will nevertheless find its position.

I agree with you, hwn u start training is better tojust "go by the book" but we all know that in a tornament this things could be the difference between winning or loosing so obviously its difficult to go by the book always.

in my case, ive tried this kind of kamae and it works great (the bad thing is that my isntructor always notice it and starts "comme on, center your kamae!!!..." and stuff like that you all know that, obviously he knows that this is a usefull "trick", but i agree wih him in that im still kind of young (kendo speaking) for those things. anyway, I got a friend (who is kind of my tecnical director, like the lead of a futball team) he has been training in japan and he teach me all those tricks, some wors fine, some are just superhuman to me yet. and he told me to hit kote like that, with the left hand off-centered a bit to the left, in the way u describe it and it just work PERFECT, ideal when the oponent has a very strong and centered kamae, he is kind of sure of his strong kamae and u just get him owned.
and also there are lots of things like this that u are not suposed to do but for sure it helps you to rise the flag of your colour instead of your opponentś one (of course kendo is not about rising flags, but this is a part of it) like move your head to the side to avoid get hitted, or block a hit with your shinai using only the left hand and protect the do with your right hand, or simply put aside your kamae to make your opponent to attack you (i could be all night with examples)

the bad thing is that (as I was sayng) this things are not "by the book" and some would like it (generally younger people) and some would NOT (generally the instructor)

[ahmed61086]

I have to disagree with you if you call this kamae a "trick". And what I am referring to is not something you see younger people doing, but usually it comes from high ranking sensie. And they dont use it as a ploy, but as their specific Chudan.

[Kuri]

I have to disagree with you if you call this kamae a "trick". And what I am referring to is not something you see younger people doing, but usually it comes from high ranking sensie. And they dont use it as a ploy, but as their specific Chudan.
My sensei in Japan explained how to use a different chudan kamae. The kamae we use today is where the webbing between our thumbs and first fingers line up in the centre, and our body totally square on to the opponent. An old vesion is where you have the joint of each thumb in the centre, which pushes the tip of the shinai to the right. The body is also twisted a bit to the left (10~15 deg), so the left foot is also pointing out to the side. In cutting kote, you keep the same angle as kamae. When you cut men, you square up your body during the cut.

Is this what you're refering to? If it is, I suggest that you don't use it unless you are shown how it's done correctly.

[Inner_Silence]

I have to disagree with you if you call this kamae a "trick". And what I am referring to is not something you see younger people doing, but usually it comes from high ranking sensie. And they dont use it as a ploy, but as their specific Chudan.


for sure "trick" is a bad way to call it, and of course im not sayngthat this thing is for de unexperienced, im sayng that the younger people tend to do it coause it works fine but older people dont like it when they (us) do it, coz the young people should start always centered.

[ben]

What Kuri describes is a *very* subtle shift in position. I know what he means because he's demonstrated it to me in person. Putting it into words straightaway makes it sound less subtle somehow.

If you find that your basics start to fall apart (e.g. backswing becomes angled, not straight; right hand becoming too dominant when cutting; basic cuts like shomen don't 'stick' to the target, etc, etc) you might find that you have to return to "standard" chudan for a while. Just because a hachidan does it, doesn't necessarily mean it will be good for your kendo.

And then there is that mysterious sensei-connection thing where you can perform these waza when a hachidan shows you and while you're in their presence, but when they leave they take their waza home with them...

:down:

b

[Ignatz]

I have used that kamae from time to time. It also makes the right wrist straight and slightly changes maai. I know several people (4 dan and up) who use it regularly.

[ahmed61086]

My sensei in Japan explained how to use a different chudan kamae. The kamae we use today is where the webbing between our thumbs and first fingers line up in the centre, and our body totally square on to the opponent. An old vesion is where you have the joint of each thumb in the centre, which pushes the tip of the shinai to the right. The body is also twisted a bit to the left (10~15 deg), so the left foot is also pointing out to the side. In cutting kote, you keep the same angle as kamae. When you cut men, you square up your body during the cut.

Is this what you're refering to? If it is, I suggest that you don't use it unless you are shown how it's done correctly.

It is allmost what you are talking about, Kuri, because one of these senseis that I saw doing it was using the one you were speaking of, where the right hip is slightly foward and back foot slightly angled, while the other one was keeping his body more straight with his sword more angled. I also noticed that when using this kamae, that my body will naturaly shift with the right hip moving slightly foward, but while striking I would allmost naturaly square my body. The only reason why I starting using it is because when I tried it out, it didnt feel weird at all, but I will go back to my regular chudan for now, because I don't want to mess anything up.

Yeh ben, isn't that weird. You know what is also weird, when you see someone do a waza that you have seen done a thousand times by other people, but this time you just thought, "hey, I cant do that" and then you can. Isn't kendo great!

BTW, Thanks for all the feedback..

[mark]

I have used that kamae from time to time. It also makes the right wrist straight and slightly changes maai. I know several people (4 dan and up) who use it regularly.

How does it change your maai?

[ahmed61086]

How does it change your maai?


Well, it doesnt change how far you can hit from, that depends on you as a human being(your physical condition, height, length of arms and legs, ect), but it does change the distance between you and your opponent when tip to tip, since now your shinai is at an angle. So now when you are tip to tip, you are closer than you would be than if you were were holding you sword straight. So you can now hit from what seems to be a further distance...? Does that make any sense? IDK, that is what I thought john meant.

[michaelm]

If I understand your description correctly, Ahmed, I have also seen higher ranking sensei (6-dan and up) use this subtle variation of chudan. It's imperceptible by most beginners, and I only noticed it when I was being particularly drilled one week to keep my kensen centered, so I was primed to take heed when a 7-dan used this kamae during my jigeiko with him.

Here is a paraphrased response from my inquiry to another sensei about this:
"You need to be at a level where you can excercise control and dominance of the chushin with your spirit alone.
Until you reach this level, you should always train using the physicality of kamae and kensen to control the opponents chushin. With real swords, life and death are determined in the space of one inch. You would not forfeit a single inch to your opponent unless you had a dominance of spirit and true confidence in your victory."

That shut me up. Geez, I can't touch that.
So, I always practice with my kensen centered.

-Michael

[Masahiro]

Here is a paraphrased response from my inquiry to another sensei about this:
"You need to be at a level where you can excercise control and dominance of the chushin with your spirit alone.
Until you reach this level, you should always train using the physicality of kamae and kensen to control the opponents chushin. With real swords, life and death are determined in the space of one inch. You would not forfeit a single inch to your opponent unless you had a dominance of spirit and true confidence in your victory."-Michael

well said, imagine a world where everyone learns how to craw before they even think about wanting to run!!!! now that would be a site wouldn't it?

[rainmaker]

I was told that some high rank senseis using such chudan when they practice with lower rank people. So he give their opponents some room to attack. But when they doing actual shiai, they do regular chudan. So I do not recommend to using such Chudan during shiai since you don't know your opponent's skill..




I have seen a few higher ranking sensei use a Chudan where there sword is pointed more to their right and their left hand is closer to their left hip, while still holding center, and their kote is covered while doing this. Does this Chudan have a specific name?

Well, besides that, I tried it one day, and now regular chudan just feels weird to me, so I have started useing this Chudan, and my sensei hasn't said anything..... yet. So now, I can still hold center, and break my opponents center, while not exposing my kote as often, but I dont want to work on this chudan if it is something that I shouldn't doing at this stage in my kendo. I have also been told that only high ranking kendoka use it after a lot of experience. So does anyone know why this chudan is used. Or any other details? And should I stop using it? Does anyone here use it? Ect? Thanks in advance.

[Koki]

I think it is just an intepretation or more like a personal viewpoint. My sempai showed me this kinda of kamae about 2 years ago. It's a high level technique (meaning, you have to have a deep understanding of kendo and kihon waza to be able to see the difference). I didn't really apply it then, but recently, I also heard about it again from Nishiura sensei in Palo Alto. He was telling me about the kendo camp with Chiba sensei.

Basically, what Chiba sensei said is:

1) In chudan kamae, your right foot is forward. Therefore, it is unnatural to have your body square with your opponent. It is only natural to have your body lining up diagonally.

2) In that case, the tip of your shinai should be to the right to keep the chushin.

[Kent Enfield]

To add another datum to the discussion, I just received my copy of "Kendo Kyouhon" by Takano Sasaburo. In the photoplates that start the volume, this "off-center" kamae is how he shows chudan. Of course, all the kamae he shows are a little different than the "standard" ones of today.

[Gerald Audette]

...It sounds as if you are talking about a chudan that is customized to your body and playing style. I have met advanced players whose chudan has a left hand slightly to the left of center and the tip towards the left eye of their opponent. I've actually seen this more than once. I thought it was a bit of an anomaly at first (it was on a more junior kendoka), but could not really find a major flaw to point out. My sensei in the club I am practicing with now has a similar kamae, and his center is very good (of course). Frustrating to play against...at least in the sense that I now need to forget the surface differences in kamae and work on gaining center anyway. It was much easier against the more junior person, who I could take center from readily. :D