why are beginners so tricky?

[tyler]

A quick question before I head out to practice:

I've noticed that I have a truly hard time trying to get a valid strike when doing keiko with beginners (people freshly in bogu). When playing people with a little more experience, they hit me and I hit them, it works. Playing beginners, I find they're super jumpy and for some reason my kendo gets really sloppy while trying to hit them. It often results in a mash-up and lots of tai-atari, when you'd think i'd be able to exploit the many weaknesses. Ah well.

Anyone else ever noticed this or have any thoughts?

Tyler

[Neil Gendzwill]

Beginners' timing is funny, and they don't respond to any of the normal threats/movements in the way you'd expect. Just stay centred, let them have some nice targets to hit and don't worry too much about hitting them yourself.

[samurai999]

That is pretty much a beginner summed up tyler. Jumpy because they are either pumped up or nervous. I can pick things off of those guys fairly easily. You just have to not get into their frame of mind and stick to your own. When they like slamming into you with no control, just step out of the way..

Tim

[junkyman]

I have the same problem sometimes, especially when they do jigeiko like they are doing kakarigeiko. They are not really hiting meat all, but they are not playing the "game" the way I am used to playing it with more experienced kendoko. Their blocks are wierd, they just rush at you and whack at you like they're chopping down trees until they crash into you. It never really giuves you a chance to compose yourself so that you can do your keno. You never have a chance to set anything up, or get any strategy going.

A beginer who is really trying to do kendo, though, is usually really easy to hit.

[Hongsermeier]

Practicing with beginners is the worst. Did a practice shiai with a beginner last week. He kept hitting men from about 1 foot away, hitting me about 6" from his tsuba. I think I'm 1" shorter now. :cross_eye

[iwatekenshi]

Usually you can figure out a beginner right from the start. I don't bother in trying to hit his/her men or whatever. It's his/her lesson and they are going to learn more from you than you are going to learn from them. There is no point in being satisfied by breaking their spirit and bonking them into oblivion :hurt: . If you do that then you're a lousy senpai/sensei :mad2: .

[iwatekenshi]

Just and another add in...When you know it's a beginner it's uchikomi all the way! Not kakarigeiko! Let them see those suki openings and let them go. Eventually when there is some semblance of timing then maybe throw in an AIMEN or pick off their DO or KOTE but no tricks, no nothing. This is very important because a level of trust must be developed for the beginner. There's no point in being tricky, that's just dumb and eventually you might even be disliked. You can probably figure that out when nobody is your line during jigeiko :bored:

[AlexM]

This reminds me a bit of what my sensei was telling me about fighting higher up Japanese sensei. We're like beginners to them so the threats they make (which can be incredibly subtle apparently) simply aren't perceived by lowly little creatures such as ourselves ;) . I suppose the situation is reversed when you fight beginners (and by beginners I mean people that haven't gotten into the "game" as Junkyman put it), they simply aren't speaking the same language yet. Once they get more advanced they perceive the threats properly and finally start lifting their arms when you fake men and go for dou.... :D

The only thing I can do against novices is try to watch for their movements and get the timing of a counter attack right. It's either that or pressure until they back up against the wall (which I can rarely manage). But then again I suck against novices and advanced kenshi alike...

[iwatekenshi]

Mr. AlexM,
You're right on the mark! It is exactly so in reverse. Ever see a nanadan go against a hachidan? It's the same old story. It's the amazing hidden qualities about kendo that makes it so amazing! I've even asked a nanadan after going against a hachidan how he felt. He basically told me that he might as well be back in school.
I'm the same as well. I can be floating around the dojo going against lower dan and feel very relaxed and confident, but after they're all gone I move on to the lines where 5, 6, 7, 8 are standing and it's the opposite feeling. At the same time you gain respect for those below you because you always know how they feel.

Kendo is always so serendipitous don't you think?

[tyler]

Thats the other thing - I know vaguely what I should be doing as motodachi when playing beginners, show openings etc... but I really hope I'm not doing them a diservice by not doing it properly. When is a good time to present the opening? Should I leave it dangling there, or should I close it if they don't take advantage of it? [our club is very small, only three shodans, a nidan and some beginners, so i'm trying to learn how to teach as best I can]

The only reason I asked about why its hard to hit them is because I figure its as important to understand and feel what its like to be overpowered as it is to build muscle-memory and begin to strike correctly. That feeling of receiving a really crisp men really helped (still does) in modeling for my own strikes. Anyway, I try to be a good motodachi and show openings, but once in a while I try to show them a good strike, and it often gets muddled.

anyhow, great posts, thanks for the response. Any motodachi advice is appreciated.

Tyler

[tyler]

I just remembered a time when I'd been in bogu maybe three months, doing keiko with somebody and he put up his 'time out' hand and told me "listen, you're not playing kendo. You're waving a stick around frantically, but it's not kendo. Better to keep a good kamae and try to go straight than start windsheild-wiper blocking".

I think that was something of a turning point for me, when I stopped being as jumpy and started playing actual beginner kendo.

[junkyman]

Yeah, I am not trying to kick a beginners ass or anything, that was all just an observation about my experience with beginers. Usually when I keiko with a beginer I try and get them to relax and set up their shots- wait for openings or be ready to counter attack. I try to make them feel like they are actually sparring with me. Occaisionally when they leave something way open I will go for it just to show it was open and occaisionally just cuz I can. I will try and do my waza big so they have a chance to counter or I will do it fast and make sure I miss in such a way that my men or kote are very open. I guess I try and make it feel sort of real because I remeber how it felt to be a beginner and have the black belt or sensei I was practicing with just stand there and make me hit kote and men back and forth. I know that has value to it, but it is very boring to practice that way as a newbie and you don't learn any timing or anything.

[iwatekenshi]

A good motodachi will give wide openings and correct the spacing between the beginner and himself. The motodachi must control the maai. This is very important! It's also very important to let the beginner get the timing down and have them feel confident about the strikes. It's also practice for the motodachi as well. The motodachi can work on footwork, check their own kamae and kiai. If all works well, both of you will eventually have some timing down and things won't get muddled. Motodachi and beginner will certainly feel a sense of satifaction ;) .

[Hai_hai]

I'll give my "Old Warrior"-style answer.
As someone who has fenced in european fencing with foil, beginners only know what they have been taught. The feint doesn't look like a feint to them. Fancy attacks are useless because you don't get the proper reaction required to fully execute the various moves of the attack. I found my own fencing getting sloppy. Then, I return to very basic attacks cleanly executed to score. I only used my trick-up-my-sleeve moves against advanced fencers.
As a beginner in kendo, I still don't react properly, like what is an opening during drills. The motodachi will open up for a kote strike, and then I'll do a men uchi. It's pretty lame and embarassing. I like it when the motodachi stops in the middle of the drill to tell me what I am doing wrong. As a senpai, you can point out these things. If they aren't biting at your subtle kote openings, tell them. When you see this, do this. Then, they will add your lesson to their game. And then, you let them perform it and score. After a while, you pull your "trick-up-your-sleeve move" and score on them. And then you can explain that to them... in order to use your "anti-trick-up-your-sleeve move" later on. Then, they apply that to their game. While they have the "trick-up-your-sleeve move" and the "anti-trick-up-your-sleeve move" in their heads, you then need to perform your "Samurai-Shodown-arcade-version-special-power-simultaneous-button-pressing-and-joystick-combo-I-will-always-be-your-senpai-and-don't-forget-it" move.

I usually chose Charlotte, but sometimes I went with Hanzo when I was in a "ninja" state-of-mind.

[Old Warrior]

"I'll give my "Old Warrior"-style answer."

I guess I should be flattered.

Unfortunately, all my European sword skills just make me feel Kendo inadequate. I'm not tricky and I think I'm pretty predictable because the only people I bout with are those whom I train with and they know what I know - except they do it better. All the things I might want to try in the "tricky" category are either against the rules or are bad Kendo. I can see I will be stuck in "beginner gear" for a long while. But, I'm getting better - slowly.

[Hai_hai]

In european fencing, it wasn't until I was an intermediate fencer and using electrical fencing gear that I started developing tricks (or special moves for one-time usage) based on advanced moves and tactics.
I guess it will be the same with kendo. I've brought over nothing from european fencing to kendo except one thing... that is slowly going away. I am so used to having my front and back feet aligned that my feet in kamae are too close together, i.e. front foot and rear foot are almost in-line like a tight-rope walker. Front to back feet distance is fine though and having both feet forward is more normal/comfortable than having the back foot angled.

[samurai999]

I have had ignorant beginners who try to hack the crap out of your head or elbow and others who are arrogant on top of that telling sensei and sempai that they are wrong. (ie "your kote was wrong" or "you can't do that type of men"). While I make an effort to learn from others, I don't like being dissed like that during keiko. I don't think that any yudansha likes to be dissed like that during keiko by a mukyu...

Tim

[Hongsermeier]

I must admit to making that mistake myself a long time ago. I "informed" a sensei that his kote had been closer to the elbow than the wrist. BIG mistake. What followed was about 20 perfect kote and there was nothing I could do to stop it. I learned to keep my mouth shut. Watch and learn is the best method. :cross_eye

[JSchmidt]

Heh..did a similar faux pas on one of the more notorious 4th dans...he called for ippon-shobu and I landed several hits, some which I thought was good enough. He then does a very weak hiki-men and starts going back to the center, after which I blurted "That wasn't ippon!". The look I got was, say, interesting.
(I did apologize after training, though).

Jakob

[samurai999]

ooo. I'm nice compared to other sensei and yudansha about being told by mukyu that we're wrong. I have seen sensei go on a "tsuki-frenzy" sometimes. Sometimes they're happy that you pointed out a mistake. They just let you know about how they plan to fix the problem later on during keiko. :D

Tim