"There are no bad students, only bad teachers"

[ben]

Now that the forum has calmed down somewhat, I think it would be interesting to see what people think of the above maxim.

In a kendo sense...
Does it affect you? Does it affect how you view others? Why?

b

[Hongsermeier]

I don't know if I would say bad teachers. IF they have reached that level they should know what they are talking about. There is a difference in teaching style. You may prefer one style to another. Some people like LOTS of basics while others prefer LOTS of keiko. I try to listen to anything a sensei tells me. If I don't understand or disagree I go ask another sensei for his/her input. :cross_eye

[Stan]

There are bad teachers and bad students. I would agree that some people are better at conveying an idea better than others but there also people who have trouble learning things because of ego or other reasons. For example, I have seen some people improve and have their kendo look like kendo in a short time and I have seen people who have been at kendo for a while and are just not getting it. It is the rare person who would question, "what the heck just happened" after getting pummelled and then make an effort to improve his kendo. Sometimes it is just a lack of athletic ability but mostly its ego.

[aru-ma]

I tend to disagree with that comment, though I understand the argument within it.

what I think is, in a general sense, there are bad students, some people might say that a good teacher should be able to make the students interseted to learn from that teacher but in order for the student to learn something they have to have an interest in learning about that particular subject/teaching. if the student have no interest whatsoever than there is no way that the student will learn anything simply because the student doesn't want to.

On the other hand a bad teacher can make the student lose interest in a form of study.

in a kendo sense a bad teacher may affect me, they can make kendo look like a waste of time, it may not really matter for higher ranked kendoka but for those who still need guidence in their kendo having a bad teacher may hinder or even stop your progress. On the other hand the students progress may be hindered by the students themselvs for various reasons, while the teachers can only give advice or guidance (basically teach) it's up to the studnets themselves to whether act upon it or not.

anyone need clarification?

[Old Warrior]

The statement is clearly untrue. It presumes that every student has a sincere desire to learn and has some understanding of what is involved in the education process. As the only adult in a class of teenagers I know this variable is a key element in the education process. Their individual motives for taking Kumdo vary from: "It will look good on my college resume"; to - "My father said it will teach me discipline"; to - "It looked real kewl".

The kids "cheat" on the warm-up exercises (If no one is watching they count but stand still) and go all out in bouting (because its fun). A good teacher may make them better students and hold their attention longer, but their individual motivation IMHO weighs more heavily on their progress than whether or not one teacher is better than another. Of course, if the teacher is very bad (too severe, unskilled, or too relaxed) a better argument exists for the proposition.

[William Honda]

There are bad students and bad teachers.

As there are good students and good teachers also.

Kendo waza is not the only thing we should be learning/teaching when doing kendo.

[Old Warrior]

"Kendo waza is not the only thing we should be learning/teaching when doing kendo."

I absolutely agree. But finding that mix between playground supervision and military discipline is a bit harder. With adults, who are 100% voluntary participants it is much easier. Adults enjoy the immersion in another culture. Kids present a more difficult challenge.

[William Honda]

The teacher that I thought were “better” were the ones that caused or manipulated you to do something without you being conscious of it. Or if you were conscious it was never so obvious that you would immediately recognize it an say ah! That is what he wants(ed) me to do.

It is manipulated and he/she pushes and pushes until you want to break. Then the sensei will stop – only to do it again next time you meet. It will not be the same and the “lessons” shift to keep them enigmatic. It is to be found maybe in the soul before the mind.

Agree with Old Warrior that kids need special treatment. Not necessarily lax treatment.

[William Honda]

At a certain level senseis should stop telling you do this, don’t do that.

If we get it eventually, it we get it. If we don’t we are not ready for the lesson. I just hope the senseis do not give up on anyone.

[kendomushi]

At least among adults, there are indeed bad students. Fortunately they usually quit in short order.

However, most of the time, if a student does not have the skills required of their level or know the right manners, details, etc. of how things in kendo work, that is due to having an ineffective or lazy sensei I think. Most people studying kendo, especially outside Japan, don't have the luxury of traveling to many schools when they begin training. So if their sensei has bad or poor habits, they naturally are going to pick up on some of these and reproduce them in their own kendo.

[Old Warrior]

"if a student does not have the skills required of their level or know the right manners, details, etc. of how things in kendo work, that is due to having an ineffective or lazy sensei"

Everything is relative. Assuming you approach your training in a respectful manner and give a good effort, the student will only know what meets his sensei's approval and will always presume that it is correct. Nevertheless, I know when I am getting an attentive lesson and when class is being run by someone who cares. Whether or not my teacher's Kendo is any good - is way beyond my ability to judge. However, my research into the credentials of my teacher tells me his a person of recognized ability. http://kumdo.co.kr/kendoacademy/seong.htm

[kendomushi]

Old Warrior, I would not attempt to comment on your sensei specifically as I don't know him, but in my experience having the ability to do something does not always lead to the ability to teach that thing. In fact, I think most often the people I know who are best at something are the worst for teaching it.
Most often I think this is from the teachers inability to put themselves in the students shoes, adjust their level and go from what the student understands. The best instructors I've had in kendo always seem to be just one step above the students they are doing keiko with for example, and they change with each student they work with.

[Old Warrior]

"in my experience having the ability to do something does not always lead to the ability to teach that thing"

Very true. For 15 years I had an epee maestro who was an olympic medalist and the winner of a number of international titles, but he lacked the abilty to encourage students to achieve. He remains a dull instructor and uniteresting company. Nevertheless, for the highly self motivated, his technique and critique, were superb. My conclusion - if you are a superior student (meaning, committed to learning) there is always something to learn from those with greater skills.

[ben]

In my experience 'bad students' don't hang around long. However I also think 'good' teachers tend to take the shortcomings of their students personally. How else does the student know how to 'behave' (in a kendo sense) if the teacher does not show them? They do not know the way ahead, only the teacher does. Hence, in this sense, everything the student is or does, comes from the teacher.

Not a very contemporary analysis. Quite Confucian probably.

b

[kendomushi]

Old Warrior,

True, we can all learn something from those with skill, even often times from those with overall skill considered less than our own. But with good/bad students/teachers, my worry is with the beginning student. They don't have enough of a grounding to see what a poor but skillful teacher has to offer. I would just hope for a better situation than that for them.

[kendo_chick]

I agree that there are some good/bad students and some good/bad teachers. There are definately some students that it takes much longer for their kendo to improve because of lack of atheletic ability and because of their complete lack of coordination. But they are usually the students that are the most likely to want to learn.

[kendomushi]

kendo chick,
Have you been watching my keiko? lol
Some days at least, complete lack of coordination is the best I can hope for it seems.

[samurai999]

Originally posted by ben
Now that the forum has calmed down somewhat, I think it would be interesting to see what people think of the above maxim.

In a kendo sense...
Does it affect you? Does it affect how you view others? Why?

b

Interesting statement. It would be something that I'd see on a GRE essay question. HAHAHA

NEways, I think it goes both ways. I typify a bad student as one who :

1.) Is not willing to learn.
2.) Tries to be a showoff.
3.) Disses sempai and sensei

I typify a bad teacher (ie 4dan and above) as a person who:

1.) Doesn't care about students.
2.) Doesn't know what he/she is doing.
3.) Isn't a role model (kendo-wise) towards his/her students.

Tim

[lewis]

The maxim seems to place all the burden on the teacher, and provide a ready excuse for the student. It is comforting in a black-and-white sort of way. But, ultimately I think one does better to look behind the curtain and see that the teacher is only a more advanced, and equally human, student and not some perfect, all-knowing and all-powerful Oz.

[Yang Akio]

The disciple is thread, the master is needle......