Shiai doh

[Nishi]

Im curious, how often is "doh" scored in your country during shiai? For anybody in Britian i think we can all agree its not a point that you see scored alot even though it is used quite a bit.

It must be one of 3 things-

1. The British cant cut doh properly! (Unlikley, as the quality of kendo in Britian is very good)

2. The shinpan in Britian are not agreed when scoring this point. (I suppose this is possible for every country.)

3. The guidelines regarding this cut are unclear, thus confusing all parties. (hhmm??)

So whats the problem? I watched mabye 70 bouts(shiai) last month and saw 2 doh scored, and these didnt look any different from any of the other doh attemped...ki-ken-tai, proper cutting edge, good posture, full spirit you name it.....most of the audience where kenshi, and all asked the same question, "what was wrong with that"?

Some feedback please, especially from you shiai kendoka!!!!

[alexpollijr]

It's strange to hear that.

Down here a clear, loud, and (most important) FORWARD Do strike is almost a certain point. Hiki Do however is rarely given.

If the strike is forceful and hits with correct hasuji, then chances are that it's a zanshin issue.

- Alexandre

[JSchmidt]

While they're certainly strict with giving do-cuts in the UK, I don't think it's unreasonably so...it's just that most of the time people are hitting in the front of the do and not on the side.

Jakob

[aru-ma]

from what I understand is that even from the three angle provided by the shimpan when a do is struck it's harder to see than men, kote or tsuki, especially with nuki and kaeshi do since the distance between both 'players' (whats the correct term for people in shiai?) are very close and the view is usually blocked.

That and most poeple I've seen hit the do below the datosubu or not enough zanshin.

[Paburo]

in spain, judging from what i saw in the last national taikai, dou points are normally given if it's a clear, clean cut point. even some espectacular hiki dou points were given.

however, i have seen various types of 'zanshin'/follow-up of a dou cut.

1) after hit/cut, hold shinai normally with both hands.

2) after/while hit/cut, hold shinai with both hands BUT, 'raising' the left hand grip, so both hands are near the tsuba.

3) after/while hit/cut, hold shinai migi katate (right hand).

which one is more 'correct'?

[Karaken]

Originally posted by Paburo
in spain, judging from what i saw in the last national taikai, dou points are normally given if it's a clear, clean cut point. even some espectacular hiki dou points were given.

however, i have seen various types of 'zanshin'/follow-up of a dou cut.

1) after hit/cut, hold shinai normally with both hands.

2) after/while hit/cut, hold shinai with both hands BUT, 'raising' the left hand grip, so both hands are near the tsuba.

3) after/while hit/cut, hold shinai migi katate (right hand).

which one is more 'correct'?

They are all correct Paburo, it all depends on distance you're attacking from and the angle of attack. The grip (2) will let you go thru if you're close to your target, if you're closer and still have to go thru you start with (1) cut with (2) and zashin with (3). If you have proper distance ( not easy with Do ) you can start and finish with (1).

Center - even Do

[bukowski]

The issue is that Do is probably the hardest of targets in Kendo. Maai is critical, as is the angle of the swing, as well as the zanshin, and, as mentioned by others, there are many ways to follow through with Do.
Do is just hard, that' s all there is to it. In m federation, Shodan and Nidan candidates have failed exams for attempting Do; if not done right, Do can make the Kenshi look very awkward. As a testament to the problems of Do striking, there is a 5-Dan in my federation whose Do generally hits either your unprotected back, or it will be too high and hit in the armpit area.
Anyone who has practiced with him comes away with at least one scar from a "Do."

[samurai999]

I have only gotten one dou. I have never gotten one since. The sensei look for (actually listen for) the crack, where the shinai hits and zanshin afterwards.

Sometimes the kenshi hit dou that look perfect and the judges still don't give it. Usually the signal i have seen for the sensei to raise the flags is 2-3 good dou hits..

Tim

[iwatekenshi]

Originally posted by bukowski
As a testament to the problems of Do striking, there is a 5-Dan in my federation whose Do generally hits either your unprotected back, or it will be too high and hit in the armpit area.
Anyone who has practiced with him comes away with at least one scar from a "Do."

How did this guy ever get 5 dan if he's hitting DO like that?:confused:

[officer_fujita]

What about hitting the left side of the opponenets do? It's more unlikely that you'll be given a point for hitting that side, although it is possible. How should that part be hit?

[Hyaku]

iwatenishiki

I used to have a Nanadan that did a full blooded one me. Damn it took my breath away completely.

About injuries does anyone get a really attractive tsuki kissmarks? I had one guy (another Nandan) that really stuck one in there and didnt apologise. Then he stepped back to put one in again! I did one of my well known tai atari's and he took off like the space shuttle and landed outside the dojo lying on the door.

I suppose there is one of his type in most dojos. Got a bloody mouth once from a police riot squad tsuki. All the other guys apologised for him after practice but he never said a word!

Hyaku

[JSchmidt]

Well, I've experienced an 8th dan that would hit you in the armpit for the first 4-5 attacks you made, until you let the pain show..apparantly it was his way of showing that he liked your kendo. (So I was told). Never had a bruise that big before.
As for tsuki-marks, yeah, but it's part of deal (I usually fight in jodan). My second 'official' jodan practice, one of my seniors did nothing but tsuki, to show me what I was getting into...and it worked...it taught me not to be afraid of it, although I had a very nice collection of bruises.

Jakob

[Nishi]

Well, i saw some outstanding "doh" scored at the WKC (as one should)...but most were of the same calibar as those used in local taikai here in Britian, so it makes me wonder further why they are not scoring this cut.

Mr Schmidt, i couldnt imagine how you stomach that kind of training......lol, good on ya!! How do you do kakri-gieko as a jodan fighter???

[kendomushi]

aru-ma
The correct Japanese term for the 'players' is senshi. You refer to the person you are meeting in a match as so-and-so senshi if you know the name, or aite (person met) if you don't know the name.

I've seen many do disallowed by a shimpan feeling that the strike was just a hair too low or high (especially true in hiki-do). This always confuses me as I often see the same judges award a point for the most sloppy men strikes that slide or bounce off onto the shoulder.

[Nishi]

Okay the British Open is out of the way, i think we had 55 kenshi competing for
- under 16's - Womens- Mens ikkyu to sandan - Mens Yondan and above-
- Kata competition-

One "do" scored for the entire shiai (unless i missed any) it was scored by a Godan...

My delema continues....

[mingshi]

I thought the only Doh scored was the Hiki-do of Will Wright, on his first round vs Thomson...? (ok I wasn't focusingt on court #2 at the 4Dan+ division).

Anyhow Kaori Miki does fantastic Doh cuts on everyone. She should have scored a few on that day.

Judging has always been dodgy :D Well no one is perfect.

[Nishi]

Obviously i did miss one.... C.McCurdy scored hiki do....or ive mixed my bouts up as usual....lol!

But there was excellent doh cuts all day....

[JSchmidt]

Well, on the other hand, I thought that a fair few of the do's scored at the WKC were very cheap.
I don't see it as a dilema. Everybody knows that it's hard to score do and hiki-waza in the UK and as long as it's consistently hard to score, it's fine with me...consistency is far more important in that regards.

Jakob

[mingshi]

Everybody knows that it's hard to score do and hiki-waza in the UK and as long as it's consistently hard to score...
...Which, as a result, ended up having people raising their shinai blocking cuts for no reason, and leaving their Do open because there is minimal threat for a Do cut to be scored (comparing to a dodgy men/kote cut that have a higher possibility to be scored). If Hiki-waza is not scored then people will begin to treat tsuba-zeriai as a safe zone... In any case people will work around this "consistency" of "high standard scoring". YMMY

[JSchmidt]

...Which, as a result, ended up having people raising their shinai blocking cuts for no reason, and leaving their Do open because there is minimal threat for a Do cut to be scored (comparing to a dodgy men/kote cut that have a higher possibility to be scored). If Hiki-waza is not scored then people will begin to treat tsuba-zeriai as a safe zone... In any case people will work around this "consistency" of "high standard scoring". YMMY

Bah!. By far the most doh-cuts I've seen in UK comps have been suicide-dohs, with no real opportunity, but just going for it and hoping the opponent raises his/her arms. Same goes for hiki-waza...you have to create an opportunity and not just hack away and hope you hit the target.
I may have other issues with the UK refereing, but not with regards to doh and hiki-waza and I'll take consistency any day.

Jakob

[Nishi]

...Which, as a result, ended up having people raising their shinai blocking cuts for no reason, and leaving their Do open because there is minimal threat for a Do cut to be scored (comparing to a dodgy men/kote cut that have a higher possibility to be scored). If Hiki-waza is not scored then people will begin to treat tsuba-zeriai as a safe zone... In any case people will work around this "consistency" of "high standard scoring". YMMY

Im going to agree with this, at it related to the British Open taikai (not all British taikai)..it was apparent that some of the more experienced kendoka where willing to take a "do" hit for the sake of having an opening at their opponents "men" as well...further....Hikimen wasnt so hard to score, but again hiki-do was niegh on immpossible...and many where good cuts as well using butsukare-waza to create openings...but alas no point.

I agree with consistency %100... but im spending major amounts of time now on increase my chances of "do"(through training) due to my British opponents now slacking on their do-defences.

I'll be able to add new points of view to this thread as well as, i build up some experience in Canadian taikai as well.

[Haggis]

Being only a beginner to kendo when I watch matches I am still left thinking sometimes "now what the hell was wrong with that cut?" but I know I cant see all the elements of a proper cut at once yet, I'm still mainly concentrating on the cut itself.

But from what I can see is that do cuts that are not awarded are not because of improper or inadequate kiai, or anything wrong with the cut itself but generally what they do with the shinai afterwards, which I guess would be an issue of zanshin. I think people, including myself especially, might have a tendency to pull the shinai back after a correct cut, as if they are going to attack again. I know I do this when I should be confident enough to tell myself and the judges that that cut was a final or "deadly" cut so no more needs to be done (apart from continuing through to face the hypothetical next opponent).

Thats just my thoughts, far from an informed opinion though :P.