Seating order

[rainmaker]

When you bow in or bow out, what is your order for the seating ?

1) Left or right ? : Does higher rank sit on the right hand side or left hand side ?

2) Order? :
- People in bogus have priority
- Higher rank kendokas have priority
- If they are same rank, it doesn't matter who got the rank first but age is first.

3) Does it matter if someone has been at your dojo longer ? Let's say we have a kendoka 'A' who has been our dojo from the beginning and now he is a shodan. But now we also have a student 'B' from other place and also shodan but older and got his shodan earlier than 'A'. Who has priority ?

[xvikingx]

1) Left or right ? :
I have been to many dojos and have seen both done equally.


2) Order? :
In the U.S. it was by rank and time put in at the dojo. In Japan you have that but also age thrown in there. At my current dojo almost all of the kids have a higher rank than me but they will always be under the adults. So I am at the end of the adults but the strange thing is I have some of the sensei (3 5-dan) sitting below me. I don't know if they make up different section all together or what but it's kind of confusing. Maybe they are keeping an eye on me.


3) Does it matter if someone has been at your dojo longer ?
Couldn't answer that.

[David]

At our club, we line up by rank, with the higher ranked students at the far end of the dojo (from the door). If there are two people of equal rank, it's done by who's been a member of the club longer.

[nebosuke]

For us it is higher rank from the head of the dojo. So where I sit, higher ranks are to my left and lower to my right, while on the sensei side it is opposite. We line up by rank, and within rank by age. If two people were the same rank and age, I suppose they could go for who attained the rank first but it hasn't occured while I have been there.

How long at the dojo or member of dojo or not, does not come into play, but we've had visiting sensei who refused to take a higher position than our member sensei of lower rank before.

[Washington]

How we do it

1)the Higher the rank the closer to Shomen, Lowest rank further. Shomen for us is left when you enter so Left to Right.


2)If they are same rank, it doesn't matter who got the rank first but age is first.

If we are the same rank then it is who got the rank first.
If you both got the same rank at the same time then it is age.


3) Let's say we have a kendoka 'A' who has been our dojo from the beginning and now he is a shodan. But now we also have a student 'B' from other place and also shodan but older and got his shodan earlier than 'A'. Who has priority ?

Guest are different. Sometimes sit with teachers, sometimes at the head closest to Shomen, (though the lead student from our dojo would still do commands), or as a guest furthest away from Shomen, or in line by rank as if a member of the dojo. I've seen all the above.. it depends on the situation. Guests are usually a special occasion or rarety so we try and make em feel at home.

[ne0r]

We don't line up in any special order..
And when "men suke" is called, everyone goes to where his bougu lies and puts it on. No line or anything similar. It's only that in kata our sensei stand (mostly) nearest to the shomen.

[rfoxmich]

First you have to know the dojo layout. There is shomen..it all
revolves around that. Facing the shomen. The wall to you right
is the joseki, and the wall to your left is shimoseki. The wall behind
you is shimoza.
I have seen two methods of seating. The the most common is
the instructors with their backs to joseki, students with their backs to
shimoseki. Higher ranks closer to the shomen.
The second I've seen (IIRC Osaka University is like this e.g.) Instructors
have their backs to the shomen, students with their backs to shimoza, higher
rankds closer to joseki. In this arrangement it is often the case that any
visitors practicing in the dojo will have their backs to joseki.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Joseki isn't always the same side. Ideally it is east and shomen is north so that is the case. But we all have to deal with the layout of our mostly borrowed dojo space so if doors and other obstacles make this layout a problem then it is changed.

The most common layout is the first one Ron mentioned. In that case whether you turn left or right to bow depends on which way shomen is.

Ron, in the case where sensei have their back to shomen, do they turn 180 degrees to bow to shomen?

[Genya]

At my dojo we all sit facing shomen. Higher ranking students near shimoseki.


Ron, in the case where sensei have their back to shomen, do they turn 180 degrees to bow to shomen?
At some camps with sensei(s), he/ she/ they turn 180 degrees when bowing to shomen.

[Washington]

First you have to know the dojo layout.

From what I remember we line up the way we do with Higher ranks closer to shomen and lowest further away;

Shomen is furthest from the door
Lowest ranks are closest to the door

~If your sword school is attacked by another sword school the lowest ranks slow the initial attack
~the middle ranks slow it further
~that buys the teachers time to organize the highest ranks into a defence and counter attack

If anything.. gives the beginners motivation to move up the line in rank :wink:

[Washington]

At some camps with sensei(s), he/ she/ they turn 180 degrees when bowing to shomen.

Aye, at a dojo I visited earlier this year I saw this also

[tilt]

N00bs nearest the fire exit.

[Lounge]

Shomen is furthest from the door
Lowest ranks are closest to the door

~If your sword school is attacked by another sword school the lowest ranks slow the initial attack
~the middle ranks slow it further
~that buys the teachers time to organize the highest ranks into a defence and counter attack
From my knowledge in a number of arts this is the best response. The idea is that the lower the rank, the closer you are to the door, you can always turn to face kamiza/shomen in order to bow. Kamiza is usually behind sensei, this means that it is protected by a line (or two) of students; by the higher grades and by sensei :D

[michaelm]

Here's an interesting article by Dave Lowry that touches on this subject.

Part1:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=386

Part2:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=387

[h2o]

Higher ranks closer to shomen. I have never been in a situation where some people wear bogu and some don't but I think we would still line up by rank since that is still easiest.
Shomen could be any direction. In our dojo it's on the right (highest rank most to the right) but in another place we rent it is to the left (Which admittedly was a bit confusing the first time ;)).


Priority is rank, then age, then we don't give damned ;)

[kartoffelngeist]

Aye, at a dojo I visited earlier this year I saw this also

That's how we do it back home, we face shomen, sensei face us and turn round to bow to shomen.

[Washington]

Here's an interesting article

nice find.. thx for the link :)

[Bailemor]

First you have to know the dojo layout. There is shomen..it all
revolves around that. Facing the shomen. The wall to you right
is the joseki, and the wall to your left is shimoseki. The wall behind
you is shimoza.
I've seen Instructors have their backs to the shomen, students with their backs to shimoza, higher ranks closer to joseki.

Hi there,

This is how we do this in our Iaido club, in addition people in Hakama are higher than people without.

David

[egtirello]

That's how we do it back home, we face shomen, sensei face us and turn round to bow to shomen. same here, we seat in the same order as you describe, the seniors on the rigth side ( joseki ) and then descending in rank order.
the age factor is not used here, if two have the same rank, first go the one that enter the doujo first.
and one time when visiting sempai and sensei come here, we seat in other form, facing joseki, and the more advanced close to the shomen.
@michaelm nice article thanks for sharing.

[Ignatz]

As I reside in the exact center of the universe, everyone sits in various places in relationship to me.

[michaelm]

As I reside in the exact center of the universe, everyone sits in various places in relationship to me.

Ha ha! Good one.

BTW, thanks for finally absolving Galileo after ~400 years.

[CAKC_George]

just to answer the bogu/non-bogu wearing bit of the question:

At our dojang, if someone who normally wears bogu isn't wearing bogu at the end of the session (e.g. took it off due to, or didn't put it on due to, an injury), they line up immediately "under" the ones wearing bogu.

[Washington]

Really? You could wear a tutu and you would still line up by rank here

and yes.. seen it.. one of the kids grew out of his hakama and the night before he got his new one his mom sewed the pink frilly lace stuff on the bottom of his hakama to wear for the night as a joke

[Avor]

When you bow in or bow out, what is your order for the seating ?

1) Left or right ? : Does higher rank sit on the right hand side or left hand side ?

2) Order? :
- People in bogus have priority
- Higher rank kendokas have priority


1- At the Dojo I go to, the back row of newer people lines ups lowest on right, the front row is opposite.

2- It's a combonation of time at the Dojo/totaly years/rank. It's not overly scrict, but you do have a general place.

[Lounge]

As I stated in my last post on this thread and is confirmed in the excellent link from michaelm (thank you for that, the second part was very interesting), the lining up of left-right or right-left depends on the relationship between the entrance to the dojo and shomen/kamiza. If the door is directly in the middle of the opposite wall to shomen/kamiza then you have an element of freedom, but if the entrance is off to one side or the other the higher grade should (this does not mean must :D) be furthest away from the entrance.

I hope that this helps.

L.

[michaelm]

excellent link from michaelm (thank you for that, the second part was very interesting)

No problem. Those articles are basically the first chapter of his latest book, In the Dojo (http://koryu.com/store/dojo.html)

He's also writer for a living, so his writing style is much more comfortable to read than the more dry, academic prose of most MA publications. I don't always agree with him and sometimes he can go on for many pages about the most obscure minutia, but for MA otaku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku) like me, we just eat it up.

-michael