shodachi

[suzume]

July issue of Kendo Nippon has a special feature on [shodachi] which is supposed to be the starting position right after sonkyo.

Although I have been told many times how important raising from sonkyo is, it is the first time I see a name for this moment of Kendo.

What is your experience about this [shodachi] thing and do teachers in your dojo put a _very_ special emphasis on it ? Eventually in any conceptual manner ?

[JSchmidt]

For me, that moment can tell alot about your opponent. Obviously,if they step back, they are afraid, an aggresive move forward will usually be a very attacking player, sideways is supposed to show lack of confidence in their center. The ones with a small but positive step forward are usually the hardest:)

Jakob

[suzume]

Ok, I need to read the articles. But my understanding is that the [shodachi] predates any move done during the keiko.

The title is [shodachi, kono ippon], which says to me it is more about a mental posture than about a real ippon.

Anyway, I suppose I need to go through all the articles before writing more :)

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by suzume
Ok, I need to read the articles. But my understanding is that the [shodachi] predates any move done during the keiko.


Essentially, you and JSchimdt are saying the same thing differently.

After sonkyo, your very first move is the direct consequence of your state of mind. If you doubt you can get and hold center, you either move 1 step to the side (evading), or 1 big step forward to attack immediately.

This is a very interesting subject. JSchmidt's comment verbalized what had been just some hazy thoughts in my head.

Suzume: please comment more when you have gone through the article. Perhaps one day Kendo World can translate and publish this article.

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
For me, that moment can tell alot about your opponent. Obviously,if they step back, they are afraid, an aggresive move forward will usually be a very attacking player, sideways is supposed to show lack of confidence in their center. The ones with a small but positive step forward are usually the hardest:)

Jakob

As a non-bogu wearing beginner, I have some questions regarding your answer.
1. Can't someone pretend to be afraid or pretend to have confidence just by doing the moves opposite their real feelings?
2. About the "moving sideways to show lack of confidence", I have this 49th All-Japan Kendo Championship video I've watched a couple times. I wondered why the two kendo players moved sideways in some of situations right at the start. This was obvious because the production director always had to change cameras to get a better shot of the bout. It didn't appear either player lacked any kind of confidence. However, neither ever stepped back at the start.

[Danny Boy]

Answer to 1: If you pretend to be afraid, you're helping your opponent (rising his spirit etc etc) and you either are, or arent confident. You cant fake that.

Answer to 2: After rising from sonkyo, you move to the side to avoid being attacked right away. Its a shiai technique if im not mistaken.

[qpuppy]

no point telling him.... he doesnt understand it yet...

*no offence.....

[qpuppy]

to question 1.... you being afraid does not help your self becasue you are not actually concertrating on how or if you can take notice of any opening or weakness to the person you are fighting... meaning this is a disadvantage to yourself because this also mean you might be too late to notice the other person is attacking you...

to question 2.... you dont wanna move back.. becasue you give the other person room or feeling of overpowering you.. if you both step forward.. but to a distance of being able to cut or be cut... thus you can move forward anymore.. soooo.. only to the side....

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by qpuppy
no point telling him.... he doesnt understand it yet...

*no offence.....

Well, if kendoka's way of showing lack of confidence is different from other fighting sports, well then that is something I will learn eventually.
There's different cues of lack of confidence in european fencing. In fencing, you can't see the face clearly, so you can't read any facial expressions like in karate. Maybe advanced kendo players read the other's face, I don't know. But, what was most indicative of lack of confidence is not how their stance was or if they stepped back or forward, it was how they reacted to your attacks. Once you see that they were reacting in a very "defense-only" manner, you have them like putty in your hands. And the next couple of attacks are to finish them off.
Oddly enough, in wrestling, even if someone is lacking in confidence and it shows on their face, it isn't necessarily a simple win by the more confident opponent, and sometimes the weaker opponent gets a point via "escape". The weaker opponent, due to the contact nature of the sport, is trying not to get hurt in the meantime, and you can't just run away. In fencing, you could just let the other person land a couple points and it's over.
Kendo seems to be a very "ballsy" sport like boxing or wrestling. So "lack of confidence" cues is something to find out through experience?

[Old Warrior]

"But, what was most indicative of lack of confidence is not how their stance was or if they stepped back or forward, it was how they reacted to your attacks."

Nobody cares about confidence, spirit, posture, etc. in European fencing. Either your light goes on or it doesn't. The slightest scratch that sets the point counts (absent riight of way considerations). USFA matches are 15 points and go on for multiples of a Kendo match. It's a different mindset. The more time I spend in Kendo the more I see that my 20 years as an epee fencer doesn't count for much. It helps me learn faster and understand the physiology behind the movement, but the psychology of the combat is much much different.

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
...Nobody cares about confidence, spirit, posture, etc. in European fencing.

No one cares about confidence, however, it affects your mental game.
No one cares about spirit. That's true, you can win whether you yell or not.
No one cares about posture, but bad posture will hurt your game.

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
...Either your light goes on or it doesn't. The slightest scratch that sets the point counts (absent riight of way considerations)....

That's true. I've won points in sloppy moves against a better fencer. And, I've been scored on with sloppy moves against a more novice fencer.

[Old Warrior]

"No one cares about confidence, however, it affects your mental game."

I'm guessing that you were/are a foil fencer. The only real mental game that I perceived was at the top echelons (I'm not describing myself) where the reflexes are like lightning and the mistakes are more mental than physical. Unless you are at that level its: show up, limber up, give it what you got and sit down. That's not to say that fencing isn't physical chess, but there was never much talk or training about getting into someone's head or dominating anyone.

I took private epee lessons twice a week for 15+ years. My point control was excellent, but my speed and reflexes were still that of an "old guy". Yet, I could fence and beat just about anyone. The secret is simple: use discipline, keep the point on line, maintain good distance and never let them take your blade. Since the piste is narrow the opponent is always in front of you and the footwork, although very hard to master, is consistent. Kendo footwork is more varied and being "a counter attacker" in the sense of consistently just picking up a hand/wrist touch is frowned upon. No one in fencing frowns upon a wrist touch as the opponent advances and if you can do it every time you would considered great. As a matter of fact you could make a career of it. In Kendo, it's the "Big Men" that seems to count more than anything. Just putting the shinai on target is only one element. Kendo is proving to be very difficult because of the inability to use pure intellect and repetative practice of defense/counterattacks to succeed. You need to learn "the whole package" - and there's a lot to learn and too little time to learn it.

[Hai_hai]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
...I'm guessing that you were/are a foil fencer...

I fenced foil and sabre. I never fenced epee.

[Sir Percy]

Friends don't let friends fence saber.:D