Inequality of Women in Kendo.

[Khelkhet]

I have to ask: how do you do it?

In so much of the modern western world, it has been forced that women are treated equally to men...At least, that is what is SUPPOSED to happen, and though we know it doesn't always happen and there is sometimes still the glass ceiling thing to deal with, for the most part it is there. Apparently, however, in Japanese martial arts even if they take place here in the west (I am in Canada) they are still treated as being beneath the men.

I have had a hard time of things as it is; I have been practicing Kendo for about 15 months now. Men who come into the club are into bogu after about 2 months of classes...Sometimes less. They are not being graded by in-club requirements or anything, but I am. I am the ONLY female in my club.

Sounds like it could be that 'hey, Khel is just not ready for bogu', right? I could be seeing sexism where there is none...Except this past Sunday it was flat out said; in Japan, women have no position in Kendo. When we line up now, it goes Bogu men (meaning males), Men with Hakama/Gi but no men, and then everyone else according to age...And then, at the very end, right after the little nine year old boy who has taken three classes---the women. In this case, me. As of Sunday it is official and -stated-, not implied or concluded by me but actually stated, that any male in the class regardless of their position, rage, rank, how long they have been in Kendo or the club, hereby has seniority over me. They are even having people who have taken a grand total of 4 classes 'teach' the new people who have been coming in lately, whereas before I was the one introducing them to basic footwork and how to hold chudan. Now I do not have the seniority needed to do that, answer questions, etc.

This has been a major blow to my already aching self-confidence when it comes to Kendo. My classes are and have been what they were the first day---for 15 months I have heard 'and this is how you hold your feet' and so on and so forth. They talk down to me and then wonder why my confidence goes down. They take people who JUST join the club and elevate them above me. Hell, when positions opened in the club leadership? I volunteered, but rather than even CONSIDER me (I actually have experience running the things they needed run), they instead chose to approach a guy who had, at that point, been to maybe 10 classes. And they put him in bogu and elevated him above the rest of us.

Ladies, how do you DO it? How can you succeed when we are treated this way? How have women managed to succeed in the art at all when we're viewed as inferior to them? Why is the Canadian Kendo Federation -supporting- this kind of thing? What am I supposed to do. I have had a hard time believing I can succeed, and lately I feel as if the art itself is intentionally trying to keep me away. I can't approach the teachers about my concerns; first of all, we are not allowed to ask questions without having negative consequences if they are not in SUPPORT of everything going on and second, it is my teachers who are RULING that women have no seniority in Kendo.

Worst of all is that we have a seminar coming up...Two senseis, Johnsons Sensei and Hogi Sensei - I think from Toronto, are coming and now I feel like instead of it being something to look forward to that it's just going to be an event at which I am debased and humiliated. I don't know what to do. I don't want to LEAVE Kendo, and I know this sounds stupid but the 'feeling' I get the more I think about this, the more I think that this is just plain WRONG and not the way it's supposed to be. I'm not supposed to feel like this nor be treated like it. Yes, in ancient Japan maybe women weren't Samurai at all..But that was then, this is now, and this is Canada and not Japan.:cross_eye

Please help, I need advice and most of all, women to talk to.

[shred_lord]

Ladies, how do you DO it? They don't. Because I never heard of treatment like this. This is not a Kendo thing. Women in japan do alright in kendo. (UK too)

[Super Kodachi]

Hello Khel

I'm sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. Thats awful and really unfair.
Who was it that told you Women have no position in Japan? I think thats ridiculous, when I was in Japan there were loads of really strong Japanese girls doing Kendo at University clubs and they recieved equal respect and grades to their male counterparts. When it came to lining up, being motodachi, and giving advice everything was on par.

Womens kendo is very different to male Kendo, and I found espeically at the Uni and High School taikai I attended that girls were much more graceful and fluid than the boys. Infact I enjoyed watching the girls shiai more than the boys! There was a real beauty and grace in it, and it was really interesting to see.

In our club we have some senior ladies and they kick my ass every week! And I always enjoy ji geiko with them and always ask for advice after practice. Also in the delegations that have visited England there have been a large number of girls and young women in University and high school club delegations. There will be also at the delegation that visits belgium in the Nakakura Cup in December. If women had no place in Kendo then Iam sure they wouldn't be included in such important international visits.

If people are talking down to you it's not due to Kendo, but the arrogance and bad manners of those certain individuals. For sure I think that you will have no problem at all with the two senior sensei who will visit your club. You should definately look forward to their visit because Iam sure they will show you good kendo and a good attitude towards women taking part. Kendo is NOT a male dominated sport, and it annoys me immensley when small minded people claim it is and try to put down ladies who want to take part.

Prehaps the issue is whether you should go to another club rather than if you should leave Kendo.

please remember that in time when you get stroger and get into bougu you'll be much better than those others who at the moment look down on you. You're kendo will have something very different to theirs.

Please don't loose heart, and keep faith in yourself. Kendo is a wonderful art and you can learn a lot about yourself through it. Keep your courage and determination and prove those who criticse you how wrong they are. Canada is a very strong Kendo country with some excellent teachers so Iam sure you can find a much better Kendo environment.

[rottunpunk]

it sounds like sexism or a personal dislike to me.
take your teacher to one side and ask him (diplomatically) what his problem with you is

my advice is to stick with it and prove them wrong at this seminar.
ask the visiting senseis lots of posh questions, and hog their attention whilst training.
after the seminar, if it still doesnt work out, are there any othe clubs you can go to?

also, how is your footwork? if its correct then its definatley a personal thing, probably

stick with it and stay strong
:p

[Anime12478]

I'm not a woman, but it can't stop me from saying that your situation sucks. As far as the women having no position in Japan when it comes to Kendo, I wouldn't have thought that to be true as they have their own division when it comes to tournaments.

Whether or not something like that is true still doesn't give them any excuse to treat them that way. This is the western world which, in your case, is in Canada where the female position has certainly risen over the past 50+ years. You should be treated fairly in life.

One thing you can do is speak your grievances to your superiors about it. I wouldn't go up and immediately accuse them of doing anything wrong and being confrontational. But at least going up there and telling them how you feel might open up some dialogue. What they are doing is wrong, but they can't read your mind so they might believe that it's not a problem.

Nobody would like you to leave kendo. If you have other options to do Kendo at another dojo, then you can do that if the waters get too hot. The better thing to do if it's not making your life miserable is to do your best to improve and show them that you can hang with the best.

Of course, this is based on only hearing one side of the argument. I have no clue what the guys in the club are thinking so I can't really jump to conclusions.

[mingshi]

In most cases the order in line is based purely on experience/ year of practice and NEVER gender. This goes the same in Japan, say, at Uni, where senior girls line up ahead of junior boys.

Just seem to be a strange case that your dojo is giving you inaccurate info on "Japanese culture". At seminars with other people from other clubs you'll see how things go (there must be other female).

As we've no idea where you practice, you may consider writing a letter to CKF.

[Kendoka]

I have to ask: how do you do it?



Lighten up, leave your emotional baggage at home and concentrate on training effectively.

[ghostdancer]

is there another club in the area, or even within reasonable driving distance cos this club sucks big time. as you say they are guilty of overt sexism and at the very least do not deserve you as a member

one of the instructors in the club i practice at here in the uk is a women a rather small women at that, I am 5. 9 and 14 stone, can i beat her, nope, come close to beating her nope, why because she is better than me, her kendo is and probably always will be better than mine am i bothered nope, i hope to be able to equal her eventually (looooong way to go )
Not all men in kendo have the rather appalling attitudes you have encountered pls do not give up because of extremly narrow mineded attiutedes you have encountered in this one particular club

[Rurouni Kenshin]

I feel very sorry for your situation and the fact it is up to a level it is influencing your kendo.

I'd say talk to Neil 'The Saskatoonian Kendo God' Gendzwill, the main Canadian Kendo authority around here.........I'm sure he will be able to at least point you out in the correct direction.

In the meantime, keep your head up and never loose your selfconfidence completely.....It is a hard thing to find when its gone........I know......

Cheers

[MikeW]

Khelkhet, I would have to say that it seems to me the problem is more YOUR dojo , or the people involved really, than kendo. The women in the kendo clubs down here in the area I am in are all treated the same as men both in terms of when the time is right to start wearing bogu, the practices they do, when they can test for rank, where they line up in practice, respect they are given, etc etc.

[Super Kodachi]

Lighten up, leave your emotional baggage at home and concentrate on training effectively.

Come on man thats a bit harsh.

I think her concerns are genuine. How would you like it if people in your club put you down every week.

Theres no place for bullying or intimidation in any club. Whilst I totally agree with pushing students to be there best (even if this means critising them when they don't train properly) and training hard, I don't agree with victimising or picking on people.

If that makes me "soft" or some such then so be it. But I don't believe as a sport Kendo has the luxury (in terms of popularity) to afford to be able to turn people away with such attitudes. We need to bring as many people as we can into the sport and keep them in it.

[Ignatz]

Come on man thats a bit harsh.

That is an understatement!!

Our dojo is about 50% women and they are all strong kendo players (and also gorgeous). In the dojo all are treated equally and there is no place for the behaviour that you describe.

Find another dojo if possible. Let us know where this dojo is so most of us can avoid it.

[NightCastle]

I am sorry to hear of the way that you are being treated. In my dojo, I am being taught by one of the highest ranking instructors, who happens to be a woman. I have not seen any sexism whatsoever in my dojo. It must either be that those who are doing this have something against women or have insecurity issues.

I am part Japanese and my grandmother (who is Japanese) told me that Kendo was once a male only sport and that women were typically taught naginata. But, that was long before World War II. She informed me that women have been taught Kendo with some regularity since. She also told me that just before WW II many women and men were taught Kendo as a nationalistic way for students to receive their physical education instead of the "Westernized sports". It also prepared the young of Japan to know "martial" ways.

I hope you can find a dojo that does not treat you in such a manner.

[johnkichu]

Sounds like a bad situation.

Life is too short to put up with bs like this - get out of there and find another dojo.

[Khelkhet]

I don't mean to give the impression that I am some great Kendoka who is being repressed and prevented from reaching her full potential solely by these events. I am -not- great, I also am not -terrible- at it. I have gone to class admittedly once per week--the Kendo dojo is about an hour's drive from where I live, so I go to the 2 hour sunday class, with visits to the one hour tuesday and thursday classes when I am able to afford it. I do what I can; I can't afford $300 all at once for the 6mm stitch bogu that is sometimes on sale on ebogu.com, and I haven't a creditcard to pull a buy-now-make-monthly-payments manouver. The club had 2 sets of bogu that were due to be issued to me and another Kendoka who came to us in the summer...Instead, the bogu went to the guy whom I mentioned in my earlier post, the one who'd not been to many classes and has already been elevated above me in that regard. I am -not- fast, I have seen videos with old old men just zooming along. I can't do that either. I am not a great at Kendo. You shouldn't need to be to learn to do keiko and the like. For that matter, the guy who got the Bogu (we'll call him 'J') has even encouraged me to hurry up and get a set, so he can I can spar. Are you kidding, I would love to spar with him. At this point I am desperate for the progress and learning. I -want- to progress, I want to be able to practice. I feel like I am going nowhere and that I am watching everyone zoom past me, and the recent 'women have no seniority' and being overlooked for...pretty much everything have just been the latest in a mountain. There is no one I can go to 'above' these guys cause they're the ones that run the club. I am, however, very relieved (Really, you have NO idea!) to know that this is not standard for Kendo! When I first decided I was going to stick with it, last year when I first started, I did so with the determination that I was going to someday be a 90 year old woman kicking butt in Bogu and winning tournaments. I still want that. I have no doubt that there are places I can improve my skills, we can -always- improve. I do not feel that it is only my own shortcoming, I guess, and I feel like the club, especially now that school is in and we have some new students, is really, really putting me down. I am the only female in the class, I really wish some of you great people were here too at this point. You have really made me feel less...fatalistic...about the matter. Guys and gals alike. Maybe there will be something that can be done to improve everything--the club, my skills, etc.

[Khelkhet]

I think also, with it being a strong statement of 'that's not at all how it should be' the next question becomes, what can or should I try to do about it? What would be the way to go about getting this changed, and hopefully getting the support and help that I need so I -can- succeed somehow. How can I reestablish myself as part of a team? Most of all perhaps, how can I do this in a constructive way? I havehad it suggested to me by people here in my hometown that I take up Aikido as well, as a sort of balance and because they say it will help me to de-stress. I have lots of stress in my life already, without 'help' from Kendo! ;)

[Shazzanzzz]

there's not many things that help relieve stress better than whacking someone on the head... although that's not why i do kendo...

[Neil Gendzwill]

There's plenty of dojo in Canada with women who are instructors, several where they are the primary instructor and most of them have senior women players. I can't imagine any woman who would stick around if they were treated as you decribe. You're in a dojo which is the exception.

Check your pms.

[Khelkhet]

Yikes. I had just posted something here as a response to something--I totally misread. For anyone who saw it before I realized my mistake, I apologize, especially to Neil...I read 'pms' and saw it as 'PMS'...and not 'PMs' as in private messages. Gah, I was being defensive. Sorry! I am really, really sorry.

[Neil Gendzwill]

pms = Private Messages.

[JByrd]

My feeling is that there is no inherent inequality between men and women in Kendo. That kind of crap exists in the tiny, narrow, minds of a relatively few individuals, not in Kendo itself.

The best way to exact revenge on people who would try to hold you down is by achieving your goals despite their efforts. Eventually students who are seated above you will come to see that their skills are inferior to yours, and will question the judgement of the small minded person who placed you below them because of your gender. Picture the look on Hitler's face when Jesse Owens won the gold medal at the 1936 Olympics.

[Richard Kim]

Khelkhet:

It is true that in some Asian countires a male, regardless of age, is deemed superior to a woman. You'll see it not just at the dojo but also at home, at work, and even at dinner and/or other social gatherings. It sounds like that this has been transplanted to your club. Not really surprising especially if your instructor is an older gentleman. I understand that if you are of European origin, it may be difficult to accept as woman's lib happened sooner here in the Western world. If you are of Asian extraction but transplanted here, it might still be galling (my older sister--born in Korea but raised in the U.S.--still goes ballistic at a lot of the male-centric behavior that is the norm in Asian culture).

I would try not to take it personally. Easy for me to say but, in fact, it typically isn't personal. It might help to keep in mind that:

(1) The gender inequality will change. It has changed a great deal in the West over the past century and it is slowly but surely changing in the East as well. By not being chased away, you'll help speed that process along.

(2) For the time-being, you can also consider your dojo more 'traditional' or 'old school' or 'legitimate.' :)

And, sorry, I know it wasn't meant to be funny but the misunderstanding re "Check your pms" was hilarious. I don't know what you posted to Neil in response but I can just imagine. Talk about a 'you go girls' moment being unleashed . . .

[Paikea]

pms = Private Messages....and people tell me that capitalization and spelling are not important. I think I'll try that "check your pms" line at home tonight (I'm past due for a skillet-head).

[Neil Gendzwill]

We're cool, I understood the mistake.

[stephanie dee]

Man that is out of order. I understand what you mean to a point and have even experienced it. I have been looking around a number of different MA clubs, and most of the time it's after work. I walk into the club in my office gear (which, i must say, looks rather good on me) and most of the blokes just kinda look me up and down and either laugh or ignore me. They really don't take me seriously, this young blonde lass, even when I get changed into my training gear they don't take me seriously. Its only when I get into it and show them what I am made of and they they CANNOT push me about and prejudge me because I am a female that they realise the error in their misjudgement (I usually try to kiai as loud as I can in their faces).

It takes time to earn respect in your club and for them to take you serously, I know that now. It was only after about 6/7 times that I had been to my Kendo club that anyone actually made conversation with me, let alone respect! But I always try to dress real nice and they mustn't have taken me seriously at first, but now I hope that it's a bit different! Esp in my Iaido class, i've been doing that over a year!

But after 15 months of being at your club? No way, I would not accept that treatment.

I have been doing Kendo for about 7 months now, and I will admit that I am terrible. A complete beginner. I mean really bad. So yes, due to rank I am always near the bottom end of the Dojo. But not because I am a women! Because I am so Goddamn awful!

Whoever makes you feel like this (the sensei or your club members) have a sexism problem or they really don't like you. Instead of suffering in silence, I would tell the sensei (esp if it is him who treats you like this) and let them know how you feel and what it is that makes you feel like that. I know that sounds gay, but I am being serious. Let him know what you think and pin point the things that you dislike. If he is an arse about it, then leave. If he says it will change, stay, and if it doesn't change, tell him to ram his Dojo up his arse and walk out. You don't need to be made to feel like that. Man, I hate sexism.

[Shogun]

Sexism is an ugly demon.....however males are oppresed as well in some cases.

[don quixote]

I just want to add that I have never seen or heard of anything like this. I should be angry, but I am just confused, it is so absurd and meaningless.
I hope you find better people to practice with, there is obviously something wrong with these.
Good luck!

[neko]

IMHO this is completely unacceptable. one of the things that attracted me to kendo was equality in the dojo. one of my first teachers was a woman. it is because of her i think that i saw what my potential in kendo could be. i still strive to make her proud of me even though she no longer even lives in this country.

that being said, i am senior student in my dojo. my sensei respect me as i respect them. i am proud of my accomplishments and would not let junior students in front of me during lineup...not that they would want to go there, i doubt they would want to call mukuso. haha. but seriously, i think that it would be useful to go to your sensei and tell him your concerns, as difficult as it may be. let him know that you don't appreciate being passed over and treated in such a manner. but i would seriously consider looking for another dojo. perhaps there is one nearby that you are not aware of. people here, like neil gendzwill, can help you.

one last thing, you should be proud of yourself for sticking it out this long. 15 months is nothing to laugh considering what you have had to put up with. without the support of my sensei(s) i do not think i would have made it as long as i have. they are there to guide you, teach you, spur you on. not to put you down, and destroy your confidence. this is not what kendo is about.

[hl1978]

That additude and behaviour is disgraceful.

The second school i went too had a female practice leader, and a number of female students, and I found her to be a valuable person to learn from. Women tend to use less power and more finesse so they are a great resource to drawn upon to learn "beautiful kendo".

[Alison2805]

Lighten up, leave your emotional baggage at home and concentrate on training effectively.

Kendoka, youre a moron.

NOONE and I mean NOONE would put up with this from a sports club or workplace etc. This is not emotional baggage, this is someone being treated like crap. If anyone of a lower grade tried to seiza in front of me because they were male and I wasnt, Id grab them by the scruff of the neck, and drag them out of the way. Plus our sensei would tear strips off them.

If your dojo happily admits that they do this and keep you out of bogu because you are female, talk to them about it and if theres no change STRAIGHT AWAY then leave, and make sure you report their behaviour in detail to the kendo association of your country. Ive never heard of this type of behaviour and have never seen it from other dojos. Join another one where you will be appreciated and you will have the confidence to improve and compete against your old club at tournaments and kick their asses. Kendo is supposed to be enjoyed!!!


Any club that treats kendoka like this (male or female) doesnt deserve your loyalty, respect, money and time. Go to one that does.

[Inner_Silence]

this is such a delicate stuff. AND I REALLY APPRECIATE IF A GIRL COULD GIVE ME HER OPINION ABOUT THIS:

in my case i hate sexism (ok im a boy but anyway) but i have to say that sometimes (kendo speaking) girls tend to discriminate themselves.
in my dojo... we have a really good relationship with girls, in my case this is in general, not only in kendo. most (there are some who do it but ther are few) of us dont tend to discriminate a girl or a boy in practice and we tend to train as equal. but here starts the problem.

in one hand, i think that is wrong to practice "lighter" with someone just becouse she is a girl, coz this is discrimination and i would not like it if it hapen to me, i really that a girl can be as good in kendo as it is a boy, its all about practice.


in the other hand,... ok first of all, i have to say that my "normal hit" is kind of hard anyway compared with others, but this is not in a bad mood, its just becouse my frend who studied kendo in japan and teaches me stuff now, he always tells me to hit hard and with time i get used to it. anyway, sometimes
when i hit a girl (especially kote) i mean a "normal hit" the way i use to hit everyone, girls tend to complain coz it hurts and they thend to hit back harder and of course it hurts me (of course when i hit hard, this has no bad intentions at all, but when the girl hits hard back only to cause pain as a payback, i think is wrong coz her intention is not to practice the waza, instead is to do it as painfull as she can and thats not kendo, but i NEVER mean to hurt). and the other boys in general i get no complains fron them. and this causes me lots of strange feelengs about how to hit who. i know it hurts a hard kote, but it hurts me to when i get it and i dont complain about that coz i think thats a really dumb thing.

first, becouse i dont wanna hit slower or softer anyone, coz it messes up MY OWN training, coz im not hitting as fast and as good as i can, so my trainning is slower and wrong.

second: coz i dont wanna discriminate a girl

third: i really think that KENDO HURTS (if isnt in the body, it hurts in the heart) and this is the only way to kendo, if u wanna practice a kendo that doesnt hurt beter go somewhere else. (this is not my say, its the japanese sensei, but i really agree with him) and thats why when people complains it REALLY gets me in a bad mood.

but looking otherwise i have trouble with this coz
first: i dont wanna hurt anyone, so everytimes when a girl tells me that i hitted her too hard, it huts me more in the inside than she hurts in the outside (of course i never talk about this)

second: in my dojo, girls dont have much time in kendo, so even if i wanted too i really cant practice keiko with them with all my strenght, as i do with the other boys, coz we aree just not equal, and i want that the other person also learn things in keiko, not only be there to recive attacks, and this is kind of sad coz im sure that a girl can be as good as a boy, if she practices as much as he does, but sadly we are not equal yet (i hope someday we would).

third: you all know how kendo goes, and when i keiko, i dont think it much, if the guy who im fighting makes a mistake and shows me kote, my body reacts instantly and hits as fast as i can, i dont really think it, sometimes my body just works for its own when i attack (its called conditionated refrexes and its the way all martial arts works) so sometimes i hit hard and i really dont even notice it, especially kote. so i don really mean to hit hard, it just happens.

please a girl give me an opinion about what sould i do about this.

---------------------------

i think that sometimes girls discrimitate themselves when they think is better. first they complain a lot, coz they are girls an noone will tell them "hey this is kendo and it hurts, if u dont like it leave" but guys usually gets at least a bad look when they complain. and if you tell something hard (like that) to a boy, they know that complaining is wrong and just shuts up, but if you say it to a girl you have another complain coz u are hurting her feelings (and i know that something like that can really hurt feelings) and the class start complain after complain and we stop doing kendo. ALL girls know this and they really take advantage of this kind of situations.
anoither example, in class i can tell every boy (but the instructor) to shut up if they are talking too much and distracting the class, and all of them just shuts up coz they know that if thay dont do so they are getting it back in keiko, but when girls start talking and distracting u just cant tell them to "shut up" coz it hurts their feelings again (and get again another complain), so u have to say that in another way so tey dont mess arround the class, and thats a self-discrimination coz they are doing it intentionally, and they know thay they are not getting it back in keiko coz if you hit her too hard they will complain AGAIN.
in my dojo, at least. it seems that girls really dont get that when the instructor or sempai says something they just have to do it, instead of start a discussion and question it why this excercise is done even if she dont like it.

also when girls try to do a louder kiai than the boys or hit harder or stuff like that just to prove that they are better thats self discrimination too, if you wanna prove that you are better than guys, u have to start beat them in keiko.

i really like practicing kendo with girls, but i dont loke when they "use" their condition of girl when they are tired or when a hit hurts, and if you say them "stop complaining, im tired too" and they answer "yes, but im a girl..." but in that same class they say "you are discriminating me coz you let me attack you in keiko, si like you are sayng that i cant make an ippon on you only coz im a girl"

so this kind of contradicting behaviour is the real factor of sexism in kendo (at least im my dojo) i really think if girls start doing kendo like everyone else there wont be any difference betwen boy ang girl. i know in other dojos is different, im only sayn what i know.

[Alison2805]

P.S. Well done for sticking with it for so long. Youve been doing kendo longer than I have, and Im in bogu, competting and have graded twice. You should have had those oportunities too.

[Ignatz]

Women tend to use less power and more finesse so they are a great resource to drawn upon to learn "beautiful kendo".
There is something about this post that just doesn't sound right to me. "A great resource to be drawn upon" sounds like "Well, we he-men can pick up a thing or two from women on our quest to be "real" kendo players but "beautiful kendo" is just something we do once in a while as opposed to "real" kendo."

Women don't use less power, they use less muscle because they are generally not hung up on being "He-men".

Beautiful Kendo is good kendo, gorilla kendo is bad kendo.

p.s. Inner Silence, I think your post is silly. All machismo.

[Alison2805]

Inner Silence: is it just one girl or a few? You are making some very generalised comments there. Being a girl isnt a "condition". You make it sound like leprosy or something :angry:

No girls Ive ever trained with have complained about being hit unless it was really really hard. I know there are some girls who just dont like being hit and will complain about it (there are guys like this too), but if someone is hitting you harder back to punish you then thats childish.

Have a chat to them and ask if its just YOU hitting too hard, or if they get hit hard by LOTS of people. If its just you - work on your tenouch and so on. If its everyone/lots of people hitting her hard, then advise her to get a men protector and kote protector, they are cheap.

By the way, just because some friend of your is "showing you some kendo" and he happens to hit hard doesnt mean you should. Do what your sensei instructs.

[Ignatz]

p.s. Inner Silence, I think your post is silly. All machismo.
I should add to this that if you are a better player than your dojo mate, male or female, your goal should be to help him or her to improve and go up a level. You don't do that by showing them how good you are (because you probably are not nearly as good as you think you are)

[Inner_Silence]

There is something about this post that just doesn't sound right to me. "A great resource to be drawn upon" sounds like "Well, we he-men can pick up a thing or two from women on our quest to be "real" kendo players but "beautiful kendo" is just something we do once in a while as opposed to "real" kendo."

Women don't use less power, they use less muscle because they are generally not hung up on being "He-men".

Beautiful Kendo is good kendo, gorilla kendo is bad kendo.

p.s. Inner Silence, I think your post is silly. All machismo.


im telling you what happens where i live, this (the last part) are just facts (some things taht happened in real life, no inventions), no opinion given until the very last part and im not telling you that "i think girls sometimes does this" im telling you that "girls sometimes does this", more of that, when you ask them if they do that (alking about "using" the condition of being girl) most of times they dont say nothing, other times they say that sometimes they do in, but i never get a denial. im only sayng that this stuff is a contradiction against the "no discrimination" stuff. but im very sure that this happens HERE where i live coz girls do this things not only in kendo, also in life in genneral, it always happens, its a cultural thing. also its a cultural thing that we (as men) usually dont think about it, we just assume that thats the way it is. in another countries this is really a strange thing, but what can i say its the way it is.
to give you an example, here its said that is good if a boy is sitted to stand up and let the girl use the chair (to me i think is sexism, coz i dont think girls are weaker than boys, but i do it anyway coz here thats good manners) but in another countries if u do that is a really sexist stuff and a girl can get upset uf u do so....

[Inner_Silence]

Inner Silence: is it just one girl or a few? You are making some very generalised comments there. Being a girl isnt a "condition". You make it sound like leprosy or something :angry:

No girls Ive ever trained with have complained about being hit unless it was really really hard. I know there are some girls who just dont like being hit and will complain about it (there are guys like this too), but if someone is hitting you harder back to punish you then thats childish.

Have a chat to them and ask if its just YOU hitting too hard, or if they get hit hard by LOTS of people. If its just you - work on your tenouch and so on. If its everyone/lots of people hitting her hard, then advise her to get a men protector and kote protector, they are cheap.

By the way, just because some friend of your is "showing you some kendo" and he happens to hit hard doesnt mean you should. Do what your sensei instructs.

the same thing, i really agree with yo when u say that "condition" is not the right word, u know, my russian is better than my einglish, here "condition" means the way things are, or a necesary thing thay a process needs to get a result (like gas is a condition for a car to work) of course i was using it in the first way. when i read your post i remember that "condition" is used to say things about medical stuff in einglish (in spanish that word is not used that way in common speak) i apologise fot that, u know i didnt mean to.
and yes i think is a general thing and yes im talking in general coz HERE thats the way it goes, as i explain it to ignatz. OF COURSE there are LOTS of exeptions and now things are VERY different than it was like 10 or 20 years ago, but this still works like this here. and thats the way it goes, of course there are girls that really not complain at all, and there are boys that are crying all class of their kote... but generally speaking (generally, it doesnt mean that every girl or every boy is this way) HERE on my country girls tend to be kind of manipulative about this things and u look this kind of contradictions. of course we (boys) have equal or more flaws. and im not sayng that this is bad always, im sayng that I think that is bad for kendo

[Inner_Silence]

Alison2805

the same thing, i really agree with yo when u say that "condition" is not the right word, u know, my russian is better than my einglish, here "condition" means the way things are, or a necesary thing thay a process needs to get a result (like gas is a condition for a car to work) of course i was using it in the first way. when i read your post i remember that "condition" is used to say things about medical stuff in einglish (in spanish that word is not used that way in common speak) i apologise fot that, u know i didnt mean to.
and yes im talking in general coz HERE thats the way it goes, as i explain it to ignatz. OF COURSE there are LOTS of exeptions and now things are VERY different than it was like 10 or 20 years ago, but it still works like this here. of course there are girls that really not complain at all, and there are boys that are crying all class of their kote... but generally speaking (generally, it doesnt mean that every girl or every boy is this way) HERE on my country girls tend to be kind of manipulative about this things (not only kendo) and u look this kind of contradictions. of course we (boys) have equal or more flaws. and im not sayng that this is bad always, im sayng that I think that is bad for kendo, coz u dont wanna hurt someone in practice, in fact (in my case) i dont wanna hurt someone ever, so u hit softer, and the girl doesnt practice well either coz they get used to a softer kendo than boys and thats bad too.
about hitting hard kote or whatever, thats another discussion, coz in japan, where my frend studied they had another kind of training than we have here, they practice at national level to be the best schools in japan, and students until a couple of years ago (now is different) scolarship due to sports (kendo) for their schools and if they are not good in kendo they cant stay on those schools, so u can imagine that they are taught to hit as hard as they can, as fast as they can so the schools can beat everyone else in tournament, of course here im not in japan so when i hit i try to do it as fast as i can but i dont put any muscle in a hit (always try to hit soft) but u know physics if u do a fast hit even if it is made with no strenght it would still be kind of hard.

sorry about the two posts, this linux is gonna kill me

[目の届く限り]

You don't know how to treat a lady huh? lol
I think women are different - their bodies are different. We should understand that.
Also, we should treat everyone with respect. If someone ask you not to hit hard, you should try and do it - that's respect; let the sensei deal with that when it get to him - if it's wrong, the sensei will fix that.

Anyway, measuring the strength of your hit would only improve your technique, wouldn't it?!

[Ignatz]

to give you an example, here its said that is good if a boy is sitted to stand up and let the girl use the chair (to me i think is sexism, coz i dont think girls are weaker than boys, but i do it anyway coz here thats good manners) but in another countries if u do that is a really sexist stuff and a girl can get upset uf u do so....

That is good manners everywhere and I can not imagine anybody being upset because of your good manners.

Don't worry about what other people might think or do, you should do what is right. Showing good manners is right. Beating up on someone, male or female, who is not as skilled as you is wrong.

[Inner_Silence]

That is good manners everywhere and I can not imagine anybody being upset because of your good manners.

Don't worry about what other people might think or do, you should do what is right. Showing good manners is right. Beating up on someone, male or female, who is not as skilled as you is wrong.
agree...

:silly:

[Alison2805]

Yeah, its normal here for guys to offer a girl a seat here too. Manners are everywhere.

If you really think there is a cultural problem with the way females are expected to act in your country, then the girls who have the guts to do kendo there in the first place really deserve your respect. As they progress they will get more into the spirit of kendo, but your encouragment will make a big difference.

You say women are manipulative and complain all the time and that this is a Russian behaviour. Has it occurred to you that assuming this in the first place is a Russian behaviour? I dont know any men who think this of women in general.

Im not saying youre an asshole, but if you tried approaching the girls in your club the same way as you approach the boys, you might get a better response from them. For example, do you go up to them and say hi before and after training? If everyone is going to have drinks do you invite the girls too? Do you tell them "well done" when they do a really good cut? Do you congratulate them on their improvements? If they say you hit too hard do you say "sorry, Im working on improving my tenouch" and talk to them about extra bogu padding?

People can tell if they arent wanted in a group, that contributes to complaining and they will eventually leave. If you REALLY want to improve the situation, try making them feel more included and valued.

[runsyi]

so this kind of contradicting behaviour is the real factor of sexism in kendo (at least im my dojo) i really think if girls start doing kendo like everyone else there wont be any difference betwen boy ang girl. i know in other dojos is different, im only sayn what i know.

Let me get this straight, you're saying that the way girls act is the reason they are discriminated against in the dojo? I know English is not your native tongue so please take the time to re-read before you hit the submit key.

To the original poster, sometimes you just need to swallow your pride. Why are you doing Kendo? So you can sit "above" a nine year old boy? There are a lot of times when I'll sit below young boys, especially if it's their dojo. And I'm sure you could have saved up enough for a set of bogu in 15 months.

When I first started I wasn't allowed to enter taikai and I felt like I was just there to grab the sensei-tachi their next beer, but a year or so later things are different. As only you and your dojo-mates know the extent of the situation I can't say anything but gambate. Save up for your own bogu and keep training.

[Alison2805]

To the original poster, sometimes you just need to swallow your pride. Why are you doing Kendo? So you can sit "above" a nine year old boy? There are a lot of times when I'll sit below young boys, especially if it's their dojo. And I'm sure you could have saved up enough for a set of bogu in 15 months.

When I first started I wasn't allowed to enter taikai and I felt like I was just there to grab the sensei-tachi their next beer, but a year or so later things are different. As only you and your dojo-mates know the extent of the situation I can't say anything but gambate. Save up for your own bogu and keep training.

Reread the origonal post - she has trained for 15 months, and is told to sit below kids who have done a couple of beginner lessons specificly because she is female. Sitting below lower ranks at a visiting dojo is a whole different kettle of fish. It doesnt sound like affording bogu is the problem - everyone else has been "put in bogu" except her, which implies she isnt allowed to wear it.

[Martino]

Khelkhet this was posted on a Rally Foprum I am also a member of

-------------
Fancy being a rallychick in Iran?
I'm not into worrying about international affairs, but even I think this (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorracing/story/0,,1886833,00.html)is a bit rough....
-------------

as long as she wasn't winning the guys wer fine with her taking part. As soon as she made it to the top their song changed.

Kendo isn't about been good or not (that is a side effect tha comes with time). And from what you have poseted here, you have nothing to be ashamed of.

As you can see from this thread most people are on your side, Even if they have not expressed themselves in a clear fashion.

Please stick with kendo. One day your persistance will be rewarded.
What ever you choose to do remember that it is narrow minded/ self centered people that will usually spoil opportunity for other (and not the greater comminuty)

[Inner_Silence]

oh, of course i do all that.in fact im the guy in the dojo who does the talking, the partys n stuff
i think u REALLY got me all wrong allison,

im just putting two sides of the same coin...

"russian behaviour", u mean that when something happen to you, u assume that thats the way things are? coz of course if something happen some way it doesnt mean that things REALLY are that way,
hm u got a point anyway, u know that ive met lots of girls in my life, not all of them are manipulative, in fact there are lots who isnt like that at all, but ive known lots who some way or another are like that, sometimes they know they are, and sometimes they just not realize it...

anyway, to end up with something, as ignatz said i think that u have to try to do a harder practice when u know u can, and lighter it when u know u have to, the problem is that some people like it and some people just dont...

[Inner_Silence]

Let me get this straight, you're saying that the way girls act is the reason they are discriminated against in the dojo? I know English is not your native tongue so please take the time to re-read before you hit the submit key.

To the original poster, sometimes you just need to swallow your pride. Why are you doing Kendo? So you can sit "above" a nine year old boy? There are a lot of times when I'll sit below young boys, especially if it's their dojo. And I'm sure you could have saved up enough for a set of bogu in 15 months.

When I first started I wasn't allowed to enter taikai and I felt like I was just there to grab the sensei-tachi their next beer, but a year or so later things are different. As only you and your dojo-mates know the extent of the situation I can't say anything but gambate. Save up for your own bogu and keep training.
yes
but im also sayng that this happens here, i dont know how it is in other places.
the way i see it, HERE (this particular country) there is some kind of a self-discriminating stuff, and it happens in all order of things, kendo is just a particular case. and i think it happens due to contradictorial behaviors. im not talking in particular cases, i know that there are lots of girls that dont act like this, but there are lots of girls that does this things. the way kendo goes is just an example, there are lots more

[mark]

....I can't afford $300 all at once for the 6mm stitch bogu .....Instead, the bogu went to the guy whom I mentioned in my earlier post, the one who'd not been to many classes and has already been elevated above me in that regard..... and the recent 'women have no seniority' and being overlooked for...

I have never heard of the women lining up at the end in any of the clubs I have visited in Canada, in Japan or elsewhere for that matter (China, Spain, France, US). In our club for example, we have several women including our sempai, they all line up according to rank. I would double check with your sensei to make sure you did not mis-interpret what was said. If it is true, it is specific to your dojo. I would seriously consider changing dojo's.

Some people catch on to the basics much faster than others. Spend all the time you need in non-bogu to get your basics right. A few extra months might save you years later on. Having someone pass you by at the begining is no big deal. It happens all the time. There is plenty of time to leave them in the dust later when it matters most.

Read Neil's thread on buying bogu. A $300 6mm bogu might not give you enough protection.

[Inner_Silence]

...

and of course i know that this stuff sounds really weird, i mean, why would someone want to be discriminated?? thats just doesnt make any sense, but here there are lots of things that doesnt make any sense, its so weird that sometimes i think that we my country is upside down....

[Alison2805]

oh, of course i do all that.in fact im the guy in the dojo who does the talking, the partys n stuff
i think u REALLY got me all wrong allison,

im just putting two sides of the same coin...

"russian behaviour", u mean that when something happen to you, u assume that thats the way things are? coz of course if something happen some way it doesnt mean that things REALLY are that way,
hm u got a point anyway, u know that ive met lots of girls in my life, not all of them are manipulative, in fact there are lots who isnt like that at all, but ive known lots who some way or another are like that, sometimes they know they are, and sometimes they just not realize it...

anyway, to end up with something, as ignatz said i think that u have to try to do a harder practice when u know u can, and lighter it when u know u have to, the problem is that some people like it and some people just dont...

Sorry, I thought you said in an earlier post that you were training in Russia, my bad!

What I mean to say was youre assuming the way girls are manipulative and complaining is typical for your country, ie cultural, right? You say you include girls and encourage them etc, but you get in a very bad mood when they complain about kendo hurting. Perhaps it is cultural for you to assume that women will act this way?


As an example, we have a guy in our dojo who doesnt like tsuki. He isnt comfortable recieving it and everyone knows this. Everyone is happy to accommodate this, and noone tsuki's him during jigeiko. When he participates in tsuki drills most people take extra care not to miss. We all know he will get more comfortable in time, and he will get to the point where he can take a really strong tsuki thrust.

Like you said earlier, make sure you train with someone according to their abilities and what they personally can handle - not according to whether they are female.

[Alison2805]

Reread the origonal post - she has trained for 15 months, and is told to sit below kids who have done a couple of beginner lessons specificly because she is female. Sitting below lower ranks at a visiting dojo is a whole different kettle of fish. It doesnt sound like affording bogu is the problem - everyone else has been "put in bogu" except her, which implies she isnt allowed to wear it.

Actually, before I jump off the gun - Khelket, can you explain whether its the sensei telling you you cant wear bogu, or whether its because you cant afford it just yet? Is there a club set you can rent?

[目の届く限り]

In a team competition at my dojo I heard one of the boys saying that it was unfair to put this girl against one of them - "She's a machine!" - he said, referring to how strong she was... :rambo:

[Inner_Silence]

an anecdotic stuff...

my friend who was trining in japan told me that in his school, that had an old tradition of always winning the tournaments, the girls team was indeed better than the boys team, in fact tne boys lots of times where putted aside and the girls had all the attention. in tournaments if u where in the boys team you have the obligation to go to the girls tournament and cheer them up (even if u dont want to go) but girls rarely went to see the guys in tournament. and they where always compared to the girls team coz they where really the best.
but he also told me that they had serious issues about winning at all costs, and the girls (the competitive ones) where all muscle n stuff, and had a special sport diet and stuff like that.... the guys just werent THAT competitive...

[Alison2805]

Yep, I know what you mean about knowing things have to change. Us humans think we're so smart, yet you only have to look at that article about the Iranian female racer to know we have a looooong way to go! Im no feminist, but the last comment in it from the Vice-president made my blood boil.

I hope she wins her fight to compete.

[Inner_Silence]

Yep, I know what you mean about knowing things have to change. Us humans think we're so smart, yet you only have to look at that article about the Iranian female racer to know we have a looooong way to go! Im no feminist, but the last comment in it from the Vice-president made my blood boil.

I hope she wins her fight to compete.

my gosh! thats so weird!

[ReKru]

To the original poster, sometimes you just need to swallow your pride.

Well, it's hard to comment in a meaningfull way, since we only know one side of the coin, but if she's really been attending class regularly once a week over the last 15 month, it's not a thing of pride, it's one of principle.

A dojo needs rules and my dojo has established one of attendance and commitment - if you show up regularly, train diligently etc. you get a lot of support, no matter your age, gender or rank.

People are not equal, but at least your ruleset should be as fair as possible.
Sure, it's always the sensei's dojo - sensei's rules and if you disagree with them, it's probably better to look for a place that fits you better. But if you allow girls in your dojo, they should be treated with a similar respect and get similar opportunities to develop their Kendo.
If you're not willing to do that, don't allow girls in your dojo.

[Khelkhet]

Actually, before I jump off the gun - Khelket, can you explain whether its the sensei telling you you cant wear bogu, or whether its because you cant afford it just yet? Is there a club set you can rent?


I haven't my own, and the club gear that I have been being told since early spring was going to be issued to me, has been instead issued to the guy who's only come to a handful of classes.

[ReKru]

I haven't my own, and the club gear that I have been being told since early spring was going to be issued to me, has been instead issued to the guy who's only come to a handful of classes.

Did you express your desire to get into bogu?
I mean very clearly and directly not in some "it would be nice to get into bogu" or "sensei didn't say I'm ready to get in bogu, so I guess he thinks I'm not".

There's always the chance of a big misunderstanding between you and your trainer(s) if you don't show a strong desire to advance. Maybe they even think you're happy with the situation you're in.

You could always approach your sensei and ask him if he thinks you're ready for bogu - if you don't like the answer or don't like the way that answer is given, it's maybe futile to continue at that dojo.

[Budo Angel]

I think this sounds less like a man/woman issue - than a bad or misinformed handling issue all round... there is always more to these things than meets the eye... It is always hard comparing yourself to others who have attended/practiced less, and perhaps appear to be getting favouritism for club kit. Good luck getting into bogu - do hang in there...

As for seating order, strictly rank, unless you're a guest in a dojo. And with Children, on my visits to Japanese dojo, I've always been placed where the sensei tells me to go (& I know that's not necessarily rank ordered).

Be humble, then you won't offend or be offended...

[ghostdancer]

ReKru ................you are making excuses for this bunch....how much more committment is she supposed to show

BudoAngel.............. be humble...of course but a doormat noway (there are limits), would you as person put up with this situation ?

just a question is the geezer how was issused the club kit a mate iof any one at the club ? not looking for an excuse just a possible explanation

[ReKru]

ReKru ................you are making excuses for this bunch....how much more committment is she supposed to show

I don't know how much commitment she's supposed to show - it's not my dojo. Where I train the commitment she described would be more than good enough to get her club bogu after 6 month beginners course, at the same time as all the other beginners that showed that sort of commitment and a firm place at the top of the lineup (at least in our 'advanced beginner's course').

But she doesn't seem to know -or hasn't told us yet- the reason for the kind of 'bad treatment' she experiences and I don't want to rally her up against her dojo/sensei, assuming it must have a sexist background, just because in my dojo things are handled differently.

The kind of inequality described is not 'normal' in the kendo and the part of the world I'm familiar with.
It might really be caused by a case of really bad communication from both sides. It might be the dojos insecurity to handle female kenshi (I have no reference of dojos with only 1 female student - we have 20, which is about 30% of the total). It might be a bad case of disrespect and sexism - I can't tell.

[iceman_213]

Khelket, I apologize for the treatment you have received, I'm thinking of starting Kendo but cant at the moment since I'm nursing a trapped nerve. Anways, I'm also a football (soccer) coach and I've had instances where kids have been bullied by fellow team/club mates, and at times I have coached girls, and have treated them and made them feel as welcome as I could.

What you say you've been through and for 15 months is pretty damn tough, 3-4 months is understandable. On the other hand some of the comments have a point where communication is a factor, one thing that strikes me is after listening to all the negative comments abuot women in Kendo, why you didnt just Google it and do some research of your own.

Your determination seems to be overpowering which is good, but soon, as you say your confidence has taken a blow, if not many, and if it carries on then it could really make you feel bad, so before that happens then take the steps ppl have suggested, that
a) really confront your sensei/whoevers in charge, put it in a blunt way but not disrespectful, so they understand what your feeling and where your coming from
b)if you know they wont listen then change immediately as your wasting precious time and money - surely there are other dojos if your willing to drive an hour?

Good luck and let us know what happens.

Inner_Silence - wasn't this meant to be about Khelkets bad experience and not your somewhat strange experiences, be it with culture or Kendo?!

Anyways it seems that you have an obvious confusion and/or problem with your culture and maybe the way people react to your actions in life/kendo.

a)have you thought maybe its the way you act/talk/think that could be all this?
b)if not and if thats how bad things really are then just adopt your own philisophy of life, you dont need to adhere and conform to you culture where you dont like, is it not as simple as that. I hate many aspects of my culture, i just dont agree with them and follow them, I'm big enough to understand and accept they are wrong so I do my part in not letting them effect me helping others understand confusion where appropriate!

[Khelkhet]

What I do know now is that this is not standard, which is a huge relief, and knowing that plus taking into consideration the support, suggestions and ideas that people have sent me on this topic I'll probably be having a chat with the senseis who're coming toward the end of the month, get some advice from them on all fronts and see if the whole matter can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. It is great to know that there are so many other female kendoka out there, and that men and women alike support their equality. One thing that really stands out to me is the concept of 'beautiful Kendo'. I have a hard time with being macho like the men, but I think from what you guys have said here I don't need to imitate men at all. It looks as though I can still just be me, do the strikes, learn to do them well, and everything about me can still be 'mine'. I hope to get to meet some of you sometime...Training with more women would feel pretty good in person. When I say I got the warm fuzzies from you lot and all the Private Messages you have sent to me, I really mean it. You are a great bunch to be so supportive.

[Spendius]

You don't have the will of a warrior. You have the will of a housewife. Hahaa, hahahaha !

Hem, sorry.
Seriously, just a few remarks on what has been told on the whole thread, based on my little experience (correct me if I'm wrong):
- Martino: I had kind of understood that kendo WAS about being/getting strong, and that it was precisely the main reason that made kendo less sexist than the rest of the japanese society. You respect people who are stronger than you, regardless of their gender.
- I heard somewhere that when a man and a woman are of the same rank, the man would have precedence when lining up (I heard that "rule" during a seminar with japanese sensei - the way THEY would line up).
Khelket, in our dojo gender is not taken into account when lining up (criterias are : bogu/no bogu, hakama/no hakama, rank, experience). Also, when possible, the beginners would "evolve"(read: getting bogu or moving to advanced class) at the same time to enhance team spirit.
I wish you will be able to sort it out by talking to your sensei or sempai.

[ghostdancer]

Originally Posted by Phong
You don't have the will of a warrior. You have the will of a housewife. Hahaa, hahahaha !

phong
that sort of comment is pathetic at best, sexist crap at its worst

[Spendius]

It was a Futurama quote, not to be taken seriously ! (Phong is Leela's master)

[ghostdancer]

It was a Futurama quote, not to be taken seriously ! (Phong is Leela's master)

i that case i apologise, have never watched Futurama, more Simpsons person myself

[mark]

I'm thinking of starting Kendo but cant at the moment ....
What you say you've been through and for 15 months is pretty damn tough, 3-4 months is understandable.

15 months before wearing bogu is long but not unheard of. In some dojo's it is common. The beleif is you spend a few more months developing outstanding basics instead of spending years correcting errors.

That said, what is strange is that it is claimed that women are second class in her dojo and rank after all men. In most dojo's your rank is your rank - gender is irrelevant.

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

(2) For the time-being, you can also consider your dojo more 'traditional' or 'old school' or 'legitimate.' :)



i thought the rest of your advice to this poor girl was good, but blatant sexism in the dojo does not make it "old school' or 'legitimate', it makes it a dojo run by a guy who has a problem with women. i am currently training in an extremely traditional dojo, run by an old japanese guy, and we line up by rank, not gender. i am never made to feel like i am different because i am a woman, i am a student and that is it.

i can't believe people are running dojos in this manner and hiding their appalling behavior behind terms like "traditional." sorry richard, didn't mean to go after you but this whole thing just really craps on my mojo.

first of all, we are not allowed to ask questions without having negative consequences if they are not in SUPPORT of everything going on

leave. leave now. this is no way to teach and certainly no way to learn. i'm glad you realize now that this is not normal and that you don't have to put up with it. if you do choose to leave, you should inform the canadian kendo federation of what is going on there. also, i am quite curious, are your sensei asian?

good luck!

p.s. save up for bogu

[runsyi]

Reread the origonal post - she has trained for 15 months, and is told to sit below kids who have done a couple of beginner lessons specificly because she is female. Sitting below lower ranks at a visiting dojo is a whole different kettle of fish. It doesnt sound like affording bogu is the problem - everyone else has been "put in bogu" except her, which implies she isnt allowed to wear it.

I did read the original post. Did you read the follow-up?

The club had 2 sets of bogu that were due to be issued to me and another Kendoka who came to us in the summer...Instead, the bogu went to the guy whom I mentioned in my earlier post, the one who'd not been to many classes and has already been elevated above me in that regard[....]

I am not a great at Kendo. You shouldn't need to be to learn to do keiko and the like. For that matter, the guy who got the Bogu (we'll call him 'J') has even encouraged me to hurry up and get a set, so he can I can spar.

From this it sounds to me like she is allowed to get into bogu but as the club ones are all taken up, hasn't.

I don't really understand the whole club bogu thing though, since at my dojo people usually save up for their own set. I don't think it's the dojo's responsibility to provide the student with anything but instruction, but I probably just think that because we only charge $8 a month.

In a sort of related topic, I had this guy come up to me once and ask when we were going to give him kendogi and hakama. He had been coming to class for about three or four months but only one class a week and the senseis never told him he was ready. I told him where he could buy his own but he hasn't shown up since.

I'm not saying the situation is a good one, but it can be overcome. Sometimes when you suck it up you get a lot in return. I go to team practice every Friday and even though I'm not the lowest ranked or youngest person there, I'm the only one getting the dojo ready while everyone else is putting on their gear. Just this Tuesday one of my sensei's called me over to fold his hakama even though there were more junior students around. I just take it as the price I have to pay to do Kendo.

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

Just this Tuesday one of my sensei's called me over to fold his hakama even though there were more junior students around. I just take it as the price I have to pay to do Kendo.

is this a usual occurrance, having students fold the sensei's hakama??? i understand cleaning the dojo and preparing it for use but...the hakama thing is foreign to me. and i'm confused runsyi, are you taking his asking you to do this as a good or bad thing?

[Paikea]

Just this Tuesday one of my sensei's called me over to fold his hakama even though there were more junior students around. I just take it as the price I have to pay to do Kendo.Is it the one I have met...and does he talk to you while you're helping him?

[runsyi]

is this a usual occurrance, having students fold the sensei's hakama??? i understand cleaning the dojo and preparing it for use but...the hakama thing is foreign to me. and i'm confused runsyi, are you taking his asking you to do this as a good or bad thing?

It is. I usually offer to do it for the older nanadan senseis that have trouble getting on their knees or for visiting senseis. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. To me it's a way of showing respect to those sensei. What I'm saying is that even though there are people more junior to me who could and should be doing it, I don't get offended when I'm the one who has to do it. Rank is not the most important thing in Kendo.

[Paikea]

is this a usual occurrance, having students fold the sensei's hakama???Not unusual at all if the sensei is elderly, visiting, etc.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Some sensei just expect it whether or not they are elderly or whatever.

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

Not unusual at all if the sensei is elderly, visiting, etc.

i love these little gems of knowledge i find on the forums. thanks to you and runsyi for probably saving me from embarassment in some future situation.

[runsyi]

Is it the one I have met...and does he talk to you while you're helping him?

Probably. It's not an "oh my god, he shouldn't have asked me" thing. It was his hakama that he had lent out to his visiting sempai. I just mentioned it because there were at least two more junior people from my dojo there (not to mention three more junior people from other dojos). If anything I'm embarrased that he even had to ask. I should have offered.

[rottunpunk]

and women are better at folding clothes than men...usually :D
responsibility is shared out in my dojo. the big tall blokes carry the bokken bag of death, and us ladies tend to get picked to do demos if the teacher is showing neatness and good technique etc.
but he tries to get everyone to demo anyways.
lining up tends to be who has gi above who hasnt. then its in order how how long a person has had the grade (non graded how long they have been coming)
ask the visiting sensei at the weekend about what they see as protocol, but do it diplomatically. also, they will be able to see how hard youre practising, and how good you are even if your'e not in bogu
keep an eye out on ebay for cheap secondhandsets of bogu too
:p

[Paikea]

Probably. It's not an "oh my god, he shouldn't have asked me" thing. It was his hakama that he had lent out to his visiting sempai. I just mentioned it because there were at least two more junior people from my dojo there (not to mention three more junior people from other dojos). If anything I'm embarrased that he even had to ask. I should have offered......:cool2:.....

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

If anything I'm embarrased that he even had to ask. I should have offered.

gangsta. :wink:

[目の届く限り]

It is. I usually offer to do it for the older nanadan senseis that have trouble getting on their knees or for visiting senseis. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. To me it's a way of showing respect to those sensei. What I'm saying is that even though there are people more junior to me who could and should be doing it, I don't get offended when I'm the one who has to do it. Rank is not the most important thing in Kendo.
Maybe the junior wouldn't fold as fast or as good as you would... The common dispute at my dojo is who help more... :cool2:

[Alison2805]

That sort of stuff as a show of respct is normal. It doesnt have much to do with rank, Id feel very priveleged to be asked to do stuff for sensei. Who wouldnt want to be the senseis pet? :D

When I finished my beginners course I was put in bogu a week later than everyone else simply because my hakama knot wasnt square. That sort of thing is fine and normal. Lower grades sweep our dojo and help pack up visiting senseis stuff etc.


Just one note Khelkhet: Everyone has suggested that you talk to your sensei - you then said you would talk to the visiting sensei - this is not what we meant!! That would be a really really BAD thing to do. To complain to other senseis in any way is a big no-no. Thats a big dose of disrespect and would only result in everyone (at your club and the visiting sensei) getting very pissed off with you. DONT DO IT!!!! The correct way to go about it is to ask your sensei about it, if its not good enough, then leave and report it to the association.

If you do join another dojo, dont complain to them about it either.

[mark]

Just this Tuesday one of my sensei's called me over to fold his hakama even though there were more junior students around.

On the few occasions were someone was expected to take care of a sensei's equipment it has been fairly senior students. Is your experience different?

[Kendoka]

That is an understatement!!

Our dojo is about 50% women and they are all strong kendo players (and also gorgeous). In the dojo all are treated equally and there is no place for the behaviour that you describe.

Find another dojo if possible. Let us know where this dojo is so most of us can avoid it.

Your are right, I was a bit harsh and apologise right now. Sorry Khelket.

What I would have rather written was something along the lines of - just carry on as normal and DO NOT let the bad guys win, or even suspect that they've got to you.

In Aus we have laws that penalise sexual discrimination, our national federation has similar policies and when one completes a governemnt acreditted coaching course, an ethics pledge has to be signed.

All that just reflects our view of equality for all.

If you have an option to train elsewhere - do it, if not .... well, keep on keeping on and don't let silly stuff bother you, difficult as that may be.

[h2o]

I don't think it's the dojo's responsibility to provide the student with anything but instruction, but I probably just think that because we only charge $8 a month..
I disagree. I think it is vital that we have bogu for our beginners to use. They are however not to be taken home and regarded as ones own, but sits nicely in the dojo and if you don't have one you pick one to use for the days practice.
If we did not have bogu for loaning, it would get difficult since we put ppl in bogu after 2-3 months (gradually, beginning with do+tare) and at the start of their second semster, they are supposed to be able to attend ordinary in-bogu practice.

[ReKru]

I disagree. I think it is vital that we have bogu for our beginners to use.

Hmm.. I think this disagreement shows the fundamentally different expectations that 'westerners' and 'easterners' (for lack of better words, sorry if I'm not pc) have.
Runsyi's dojo seems to have a very strong japanese/asian influence and she's of that cultural background. Depending on your cultural background, some things seem either completely normal or totally odd.

To expect beginners in the west to invest hundreds of dollars in an activity they most likely won't keep doing (about 50-90% of our beginners quit pre-bogu and from the rest, there's only 1-3/20-30 that are still here after a year) seems foolish.
In addition there's usually not the slightest pressure from your environment/parents to join or stay with kendo. You can consider yourself lucky if you get some support (this also applies to support from the dojo to lower the entry barrier to a still very exotic and not quite cheap activity).

I can understand very well how this sort of support would be considered completely unnecesary and inappropriate in a more japanese/korean influenced dojo.
That can be one point where the expectations of the sensei and that of the student clash, if neither side is willing to understand the other's point of view.

[Kent Enfield]

I can understand very well how this sort of support would be considered completely unnecesary and inappropriate in a more japanese/korean influenced dojo.Okay, in my experience, this is just out and out false. At the junior high school (in Japan) where I work, there are stacks and stacks of old bogu. I don't think *any* of the kids have their own bogu, but they might. Many of them appear to using bogu older than they are. I don't know of anyone who started as an adult who had to come up with their own bogu. For all of them, spare bogu appeared from somewhere. By the way, all the people I know who started as adults are foreigners.

[sainueng]

On the few occasions were someone was expected to take care of a sensei's equipment it has been fairly senior students. Is your experience different?

My experience is it's usually the junior experienced students. :D In other words, someone that has been around long enough to be trustworthy with doing the job right, but on the junior end. If it is for a visiting sensei, then a more senior student may be selected to do the job. Althought I must admit they tend to select girls for this, from what I've seen. :p I personally also view it as an honor to do this. It is also a great time to pick up tidbits of knowledge from the sensei get them to know you better. ;)

[runsyi]

I disagree. I think it is vital that we have bogu for our beginners to use. They are however not to be taken home and regarded as ones own, but sits nicely in the dojo and if you don't have one you pick one to use for the days practice.
If we did not have bogu for loaning, it would get difficult since we put ppl in bogu after 2-3 months (gradually, beginning with do+tare) and at the start of their second semster, they are supposed to be able to attend ordinary in-bogu practice.

We do have bogu for lending, but I haven't seen it offered out to anyone besides the children. Usually the people that come often enough to get the nod for bogu have already saved up for their own set.

The way it usually goes at my dojo is the first couple of lessons you borrow shinai and wear whatever. It's usually left up to the individual when they want to buy kendogi and hakama and we don't normally provide, but if the student shows up consistently sometimes someone will offer to lend them a set. Our practice is usually an hour or so of footwork, suburi and uchigomi, then yakusoku-keiko and around 45 minutes jigeiko. Even the non-bogu students are welcome to stay for the whole duration and practice with the sensei. Usually the ones that stick around are the ones who get told they should save up for bogu. The ones that dig out after the first hour don't really give anyone a chance to tell them anything.

[runsyi]

On the few occasions were someone was expected to take care of a sensei's equipment it has been fairly senior students. Is your experience different?

The way I've normally seen it, it was the youngest.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Off-topic and largely offensive discussion moved here (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11686). Keep it there, or I'll get nasty.

[Kiki]

Good luck. I think you are brave for sticking it out so long. It might take even more guts to have the conversation with him. For me, I have never found it easy to get the dailogue going when there is a problem but it's always been worth the effort. I really hope you will talk to your sensei first.

Also, your advanced basic skills will pay off big time when you finally move to bogu. If your sense really is a misogynist then by all means go to another dojo.

Have any other women even come to try a class at your dojo during your 15 months?

At my dojo and in our conference, women play a very active roll in the behind the scenes projects. Like most people here said, we line up by Rank/bogu/non-bogu. Age before beauty if same rank.

Visiting sensei - only seen 3 dan and up do the folding - even a 5th dan once. Glad it's not me, I am no good at it. So much for girls being better at folding.:D

[Newbie]

It might take even more guts to have the conversation with him. For me, I have never found it easy to get the dailogue going when there is a problem but it's always been worth the effort

Yup. Totally. I always get nervous and butterflies in my stomach. But you know what? Everytime I've swallowed that fear of confrontation it's turned out all right, misunderstandings have been cleared up, etc.

It's hard to do but commit yourself to talking to sensei, like you would commit to a men cut and follow through on the decision :)

[Kitsune]

Didn't read all the thread but I can not believe that in our times still exist that kind of treatment toward women... I just can't.

The only thing that I can say is that you look for a new dojo and DO NOT QUIT Kendo at all, but quit that dojo that is making you an unhappy person.

[Mowvran]

Khelkhet

I am deeply impressed by the commitment you have already shown in the face of such obvious bigotry . I don’t think that there is any point in discussing this with him it’s highly unlikely he will suddenly see the light and join the 21 Century .I would recommend and finding a new dojo and leaving this one you are worth more than this club offers.

[JByrd]

Some sensei just expect it whether or not they are elderly or whatever.

I've never met anyone who expected it. I always folded Takeno Sensei's clothes, and took care of his bogu. He was old and in poor health at the time.

Koike Sensei always politely refuses when I offer to fold his clothes or carry his bogu, so I stopped offering. I just fold his clothes when he's in the shower, or asleep. I grab his gear while he's putting his shoes on. I consider it an exercise in sen; I figure if I can get ahead of him there, it's only a matter of time before I can do it in the dojo. OK, maybe a long time, but still. The only way I can get ahead of anybody is if I get my own stuff together in advance. That's sen.

[Obukan_dude]

Khelket, you should come on down to Obukan in Portland, Oregon. Maybe practice with Huang-Sensei and the Consididine sisters will make you feel better. You have my sympathy, and I sincerely hope your situation improves.

[Paikea]

Khelket, you should come on down to Obukan in Portland, Oregon. Maybe practice with Huang-Sensei and the Consididine sisters will make you feel better. You have my sympathy, and I sincerely hope your situation improves."Considine" Con-Si-Dine, they're very particular, and numerous. I saw you were somewhat outgunned in the gender department there last night...:calm:

[Obukan_dude]

"Considine" Con-Si-Dine, they're very particular...
Whoops, my bad.

[Paikea]

Whoops, my bad.Yeah, you've had it now...one will stun you with that voice and the others will beat you senseless.

[Kaoru]

I have to ask: how do you do it?

In so much of the modern western world, it has been forced that women are treated equally to men...At least, that is what is SUPPOSED to happen, and though we know it doesn't always happen and there is sometimes still the glass ceiling thing to deal with, for the most part it is there. Apparently, however, in Japanese martial arts even if they take place here in the west (I am in Canada) they are still treated as being beneath the men.

I have had a hard time of things as it is; I have been practicing Kendo for about 15 months now. Men who come into the club are into bogu after about 2 months of classes...Sometimes less. They are not being graded by in-club requirements or anything, but I am. I am the ONLY female in my club.

Sounds like it could be that 'hey, Khel is just not ready for bogu', right? I could be seeing sexism where there is none...Except this past Sunday it was flat out said; in Japan, women have no position in Kendo. When we line up now, it goes Bogu men (meaning males), Men with Hakama/Gi but no men, and then everyone else according to age...And then, at the very end, right after the little nine year old boy who has taken three classes---the women. In this case, me. As of Sunday it is official and -stated-, not implied or concluded by me but actually stated, that any male in the class regardless of their position, rage, rank, how long they have been in Kendo or the club, hereby has seniority over me. They are even having people who have taken a grand total of 4 classes 'teach' the new people who have been coming in lately, whereas before I was the one introducing them to basic footwork and how to hold chudan. Now I do not have the seniority needed to do that, answer questions, etc.

This has been a major blow to my already aching self-confidence when it comes to Kendo. My classes are and have been what they were the first day---for 15 months I have heard 'and this is how you hold your feet' and so on and so forth. They talk down to me and then wonder why my confidence goes down. They take people who JUST join the club and elevate them above me. Hell, when positions opened in the club leadership? I volunteered, but rather than even CONSIDER me (I actually have experience running the things they needed run), they instead chose to approach a guy who had, at that point, been to maybe 10 classes. And they put him in bogu and elevated him above the rest of us.

Ladies, how do you DO it? How can you succeed when we are treated this way? How have women managed to succeed in the art at all when we're viewed as inferior to them? Why is the Canadian Kendo Federation -supporting- this kind of thing? What am I supposed to do. I have had a hard time believing I can succeed, and lately I feel as if the art itself is intentionally trying to keep me away. I can't approach the teachers about my concerns; first of all, we are not allowed to ask questions without having negative consequences if they are not in SUPPORT of everything going on and second, it is my teachers who are RULING that women have no seniority in Kendo.

Worst of all is that we have a seminar coming up...Two senseis, Johnsons Sensei and Hogi Sensei - I think from Toronto, are coming and now I feel like instead of it being something to look forward to that it's just going to be an event at which I am debased and humiliated. I don't know what to do. I don't want to LEAVE Kendo, and I know this sounds stupid but the 'feeling' I get the more I think about this, the more I think that this is just plain WRONG and not the way it's supposed to be. I'm not supposed to feel like this nor be treated like it. Yes, in ancient Japan maybe women weren't Samurai at all..But that was then, this is now, and this is Canada and not Japan.:cross_eye

Please help, I need advice and most of all, women to talk to.
Hi!

First, could you please tell us what dojo this is? Is it CKF affiliated? It doesn't sound to me, like it is, if what you say is actually happening. I used to be in a McDojo myself, and that teacher wasn't nice to me at all. But, I am now in a legit kendo dojo and I have never been treated any less than the rest of the students, male or female in any dojo, and I've experienced practices in 3 different Kendo dojos so far.

I'm just curious... I sincerely hope they are not CKF because if they are, they are a complete embarrassment to the federation and to Kendo itself, if they are treating you like this and the sensei actually told the entire class what you said above.

Although, some questions... Think about what YOU do. Do you show up consistantly for practice? If you don't, the sensei might take that as meaning you don't care so much, and therefore places you last. Do you put in the effort to work on your Kendo skills at home so you improve? You have to have very good kihon to make it into bogu. You also have to make it to the dojo consistantly to show you want to learn more. Sensei take this stuff very seriously. It's not unheard of for a person to take as long as you to get into bogu. Sometimes it's due to a lack of being able to practice. When you can't practice with others, your tenouchi becomes faulty no matter how much suburi you do. You need to have good tenouchi to be able to fight without hurting someone. And, I bet there are other little details that matter, but can't think of any since I'm not in bogu yet myself. But, I do know you have to have good Kihon and tenouchi to fight safely. How is your attitude in class? Are you always polite or do you show displeasure when they place you at the end or not let you into bogu? That does matter.

If you are doing all right things and they still act like this to you, there's a major problem. Talking to the sensei in your own dojo is a very good idea. DO NOT talk to the visiting sensei. That's not why they come to visit. They come to share what they know with your dojo. They are your dojo's guests. It would be disrespectful to your sensei and dojo to do that.

However, if they are not CKF affiliated, don't bother trying to talk to the sensei. Just find a CKF dojo to attend instead. Leave with no explanation other than, "It was nice to meet you and train with you, but I haven't the time to continue right now. Thank you for teaching me." and that's all of an explanation they deserve. You should leave the ego intact and part politely and peacefully. That's exactly what I did and said when I left the Kumdo McDojo I used to belong to before I began Kendo.(Kendo and Kumdo are the same thing.)

Even if they are CKF, you should leave the same way... With grace.

Don't stick around if you don't like the atmosphere. It's not good for you or them. Besides, they will hinder your kendo and hurt your character whereas Kendo is supposed to help you build good character. How can you do that, when you get treated that way?

Oh... in terms of the footwork. Expect to hear that forever no matter what dojo you are in. No sensei worth his salt should let poor footwork pass whether the student be Kyu or Dan, with or without bogu. So, if you're being reminded of your footwork, look in a mirror and if you can't find a mirror, down at your feet at home or at the gym and see what is wrong. Pay attention always. I don't care if a person has done Kendo for a month or 40 years, There's no excuse not to look at one's own footwork constantly and be critical of it. And, there's no excuse not to take advice from someone pointing things out. Practice practice practice!

If you decide to stay, smile, and take everything with stride and be always polite and ask if anyone needs help. Maybe if they see your determination and pleasent disposition, they'll change their minds about you. Mind you, you ARE the only girl there. Maybe they are not used to girls, to play Devil's Advocate. Who knows.

Anyway, good luck and I hope things work out. :)

Kaoru

[Newbie]

No sensei worth his salt should let poor footwork pass whether the student be Kyu or Dan

You what? I know if my feet don't pick up I wont be passing my next grading.



Toaster - can you pass onto Sats a little message for me? Simply reads WWW.
Ta bananas.

[Obukan_dude]

Yeah, you've had it now...one will stun you with that voice and the others will beat you senseless.
So true, so true.

[EBP2K2]

I'm just curious... I sincerely hope they are not CKF because if they are, they are a complete embarrassment to the federation and to Kendo itself, if they are treating you like this and the sensei actually told the entire class what you said above.


from what I can gather from her post (I was directed here by fellow kendokas), that particular remark was NOT made by a sensei. and if I guessed right as to where her dojo is, it's the only dojo within hundreds of miles and no sensei.

she simply needs to be exposed to kendo in other parts of Canada, and while there are always two sides to a story, it's shame a story like hers even persist in this day and age.

and to KhelKhet, how about asking the instructor straight up? I'm sorry you had to go through such experience, and as far as I can tell, this is clearly an exception, not NORM.

[Kaoru]

from what I can gather from her post (I was directed here by fellow kendokas), that particular remark was NOT made by a sensei. and if I guessed right as to where her dojo is, it's the only dojo within hundreds of miles and no sensei.

Are they CKF recognised though? This guy isn't the sensei?? And, if this is true, what I want to know, is if the person teaching is even graded by the CKF. 100's of miles and no sensei... How'd he get to run a dojo without a mentor?? All dojo here have to have some sort of sensei 4th dan or higher for a mentor(As far as I am aware.) to be recognised as a study group and eventually, dojo by the AUSKF. Regardless of whether this person is a sensei or just a yudansha, and etc. I don't like this person's attitude and he should not be teaching, IMHO. (Sorry, I can't help but question if this group is even part of the CKF because of this.) I'd like to see this looked into...

she simply needs to be exposed to kendo in other parts of Canada, and while there are always two sides to a story, it's shame a story like hers even persist in this day and age.
I completely agree with all of what you said.


and to KhelKhet, how about asking the instructor straight up? I'm sorry you had to go through such experience, and as far as I can tell, this is clearly an exception, not NORM.

Yes, it's definately NOT the norm! :)

Kaoru

[EBP2K2]

Are they CKF recognised though? This guy isn't the sensei?? And, if this is true, what I want to know, is if the person teaching is even graded by the CKF. 100's of miles and no sensei... How'd he get to run a dojo without a mentor?? All dojo here have to have some sort of sensei 4th dan or higher for a mentor(As far as I am aware.) to be recognised as a study group and eventually, dojo by the AUSKF. Regardless of whether this person is a sensei or just a yudansha, and etc. I don't like this person's attitude and he should not be teaching, IMHO. (Sorry, I can't help but question if this group is even part of the CKF because of this.) I'd like to see this looked into...
Kaoru

well, I'm not going to commit to what i'm not entirely sure about.

but I'm sure Johnson sensei and Hogi sensei who are visiting that particular dojo for seminar (as KhelKhet mentioned) will straighten things out.

TO KhelKhet,
Johnsen sensei and Hogi sensei are some of the nicest senseis you will come across... well all senseis I've met have been nice and friendly... anyway, voice your concern to the senseis when they visit your dojo.

[Kaoru]

well, I'm not going to commit to what i'm not entirely sure about.


I don't blame you. :)

but I'm sure Johnson sensei and Hogi sensei who are visiting that particular dojo for seminar (as KhelKhet mentioned) will straighten things out.

I sincerely HOPE so!! This is just ridiculous and plain wrong. Grrrrrr....

Kaoru

[Khelkhet]

The overwhelming support I have gotten -is- paying off. It has been a bit since I posted this, and tonight the Big Guy (Quinlan ;) was at class. The matter seems to be resolved and I got a lot of helpful suggestions from Steve Quinlan on top of that. This, and several other matters, is gradually being cleared up and I think I came out on top in that I got some helpful pointers that are already helping me out. Tonight I felt like someone was listening to me, and it was such a huge relief I nearly cried :P I was not going to say anything at all, but when I was asked everything just sorta poured...And it seems to have been a good thing, in the end.

I also did pre-pay my fees for the visit from Johnson Sensei and Hogi Sensei and I am really looking forward to getting to meet them this coming weekend. I have run into some issues in terms of a place to stay for the weekend but I am still hunting. Hopefully something comes through, because I missed Raymond Sensei last year due to lack of funds and a place to stay, and would really rather not miss this seminar too.

Thanks again, guys, for all your support.

[ReKru]

Now, whatever you do, don't quit after your first session in bogu. :P

It's quite a different experience to the suburi orgies you've probably done before to actually hit and get hit by other people and can be quite shocking the first time you do it.
Gets better though the longer you go. :)

[cesarekim]

Hi,
Sounds like things are getting better in your dojo as misunderstandings get cleared up and you are now going to get to practice kendo "with the guys". Don't let them slip into protective mode and treat you like a "girlie". You should demand that you train as hard as them and spar with them at the same level. You may not be ready physically for this but the body heals and your spirit will strengthen for this. I'm fat, short sighted and short. I will get pounded on occasion but my kendo only improves as people try to annihilate me.

I practice with a girl and 6/7 guys. The girl is probably not stronger / quicker than any of the guys but she is DETERMINED. She's only been practicing for 4 years now but she's off to TAIPEI for the WKC in the Italian Nat'l team. Not bad for a 37 year old who never did MA before!

[Ignatz]

Many people do not understnd the difference between keiko and waza drills. It is one thing to go to the limitof your ability in keiko but if you are hitting men as hard as you can in drills, that is wrong. Since it seems that the seniors in this dojo will not intervene, it will be up to you to tell people not to split wood when they are doing drills. Don't worry about hurting their feelings, it is wrong.

[sainueng]

I will get pounded on occasion but my kendo only improves as people try to annihilate me.


Personally I'm happy and excited when a sensei starts to annihilate me and work me over. I always think "Crap! I'm going to die. I can't keep this up much longer. AWESOME!!" :D You know they care when they're beating the crap out of you. Correctly, of course. ;) It's when you're ignored that you should seriously question if you did something wrong...

On the other hand Ignatz has a good point as well. :)

[Ignatz]

Personally I'm happy and excited when a sensei starts to annihilate me and work me over. I always think "Crap! I'm going to die. I can't keep this up much longer. AWESOME!!" :D You know they care when they're beating the crap out of you. Correctly, of course. ;) It's when you're ignored that you should seriously question if you did something wrong...

On the other hand Ignatz has a good point as well. :)
There is a fundamental difference between getting the snot beat out of you (good) and being mauled by someone who thinks kendo is a combination of roller derby and rugby played with clubs. (bad)

[ghostdancer]

was doing jigieko with my sensei last practice was really trying,
all of a sudden he drops down a gear for about 30 seconds and theres me thinking wooaaahhh
got slapped around a bit, did i learn anything hell yes, did i enjoy it you betcha
must have done something right, after sonkyo(sp) got a thumbs up well chuffed

[cesarekim]

Uh,
Not sure whether my post was misunderstood. Just in case, what I MEANT was that good, hard training is something we try to emphasize at our dojo regardless of the practitioner's sex. We've never had serious injuries due to hard hits although people will occasionally pull a muscle or get bruises for slightly off-target hits (armpit do's REALLY hurt :dead: ) as well as well hit kote's. The sensei will usually let us get a couple of hits and then will drop a gear. At last count, he appears to have about a 12-speed to play with :D .

The train till you drop and then train some more method works for us. Pain and mental limits are something that we try to learn to overcome. Considering that Khelkhet suffered through 15 months of bs, I guess that mental pain is something she's used to.

Best of luck with your bogu practice, Khelkhet. Just remember that when you have a surfeit of lactic acid, you are better off running really slow for about 15 minutes after practice to reabsorb it. That and about a ton of aspirin will get you through the first six months of training.;)

Cesare

[rottunpunk]

glad everythings getting sorted kelkhet
as for a place to stay at the seminar, try to ask around for a bed or a couch, but if you cant find anything before hand, dont put it off you going.
go anyways and a place will make itself available no doubt
:p

[Khelkhet]

People will be happy to know I did make it to the seminar and did find a place to stay...Hogi Sensei and Johnson Sensei were great both as teachers and great fun as people. We went to a sushi joint last night. I will be starting a new thread here in a bit, after I resize and upload some of the pictures we took. If not for the support I got on this forum I really don't think I would have gone and I would definately have missed out. :>

So, keep watching and I'll start the new thread probably later today! ;> Although I can barely walk. :P

A brief and incomplete list of things I may have learned this weekend...
- I don't have to be physically strong to do Kendo
- It's OK to be slow
- Donairs are best saved for -after- the seminar, not in the middle
- Hot Sake is gooooood
- I -am- brave enough to try sushi...
....But not so brave as to try large amounts of it all at once. ;) I even ate Octopus, at Johnson Sensei's suggestion!
- Both Hogi Sensei and Johnson Sensei are a lot of fun. I hope we get to have them back.

[ben]

Well done to you!
Kendo wa ken no riho no shuren ni yoru ningenkeisei no michi de aru.

b

[ghostdancer]

pls excuse ignorance but what are Donairs

Donairs are best saved for -after- the seminar, not in the middle

just curious i need to know!!!

[Steve]

Just discovered this thread. Actually it was pointed out to me by a fellow canadian kendoka who recognizedd my name. So, I want to clear the air of some pretty heated comments on the forum.

The club in question is the Halifax Kendo Club. http://www.halifaxkendo.org. It is where I began Kendo, and the club that i spent a number of years helping to build. For those readers who are not canadian, it is the only CKF Kendo club (that I am aware of) in the maritimes (East coast Canada). By reading the thread that Khelket posted, all i can say is that the HKC has been disgraced. While i have moved from Halifax to Kingston, Ontario, the CKF has requested that i remain the Sempai to the Halifax club. That being the case, I must take responsibility for this disgrace.

Khelket's treatment in the dojo was hugely unacceptable... and that is probably the understatement of the year. I wish i had known of this thread earlier. So, to all Kendoka who have read this...and especially to Khelket I must offer my most sincere apologies.

There is no place in a dojo for sexism, degradation of a person's dignity, or snide comments disguised as humour. This is what was occuring. I made it very clear to the current club president that it was to stop. Khelket, the club president and i talked for quite some time (pre seminar) and i hope that she is satisfied with what has been put into motion. The best I can say is that when we started talking there were tears in her eyes...when we finished she was smiling.

As for the source of certain aspects of her treatment, I have no idea where it came from. (The seretsu part made my jaw hit the floor!) I've never heard of some of the things that were done to her being done in a dojo before. I was even more shocked to find out that this was actually stated verbally!!
My first aite in ji-geiko was a woman...and she gave me a very profound and humbling beating. One of my best friends was a female kendoka, and my GF is a kendoka. Kendo is one of the few martial arts (IMO) involving combat which bothj men and women can easily stand as equals. I've always tried to promote this with the club, and now that has been destroyed.

The "political bickering" that was/is present is an unfortunate part of any group. Unfortunately I again was unaware just how much it had grown and how severe it was becoming.

All of this was made much more clear after hearing Khelket's version of it all verbally.

As for the (for lack of a better term) executive positions she was interested in, I had no idea she was even interested. In fact, the initial executive i set up upon my leaving the club had a woman as one of the VP's. Knowing this I think i will re-examine the current executive.

The issue of "the bogu", from what I can grasp of it by trying to assimilate both sides of the story, is based on some politics and general bogu readiness. Khelket, you are not ready for bogu...not yet. However, it seems very clear that the person who was given the bogu intially is not in a position to be deserving of its use either.

Khelket, you and I talked quite a bit during the seminar and afterward regarding what you are doing during practice (or not doing) and how you are approaching your practice. I pointed out some aspects of your practice which are hindering you. If you can make these changes we discussed, and practice diligently, you will improve. Use your own body as a guide, not the progress of others. Develop your Kendo both mentally and physically according to how you and your body learns it. Kendo is a standardized martial art, but each person learns it in a unique way according their own unique abilities, physique, etc... Accept your strengths, and accept your weaknesses. Begin your Kendo practice from that point, and your strengths to overcome your weaknesses. Always attempt to challenge your pre-conceived limits. I think you'll soon discover that many of them really are non-existent. This is part of the "Do" in Kendo.

I also hope that you were able to take away a new perspective on Kendo itself and on the how and why of practice from Johnson Sensei / Hogi Sensei.

Lastly, yes the dojo is a recognized CKF club. Our sponsor is 7th Dan, and we have a number of Sensei who have been mentors, albeit from a distance.

No length of words can excuse or correct what has come to pass over the last year at the HKC. I will simply offer my most sincere regrets and apologies to all Kendoka who have read this, which appears to be a large number. Especially to all other CKF Kendoka, both male and female. Allowing this to happen is potentially a blemish on all CKF member clubs. I apologise for tarnishing the image that is associated with that of a CKF club.

Most importantly, to Khelket. Don't ever allow your dignity, self-worth, and status as both a kendoka and a modern woman come into question ever again.

If anybody has comments, complaints, blame, or anything else regarding this issue, please d