New and strange equipment

[Usagi San]

Don't see any thread about it so here it goes, look at the men in the video; as any one seen this before?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfoNFXnN7zQ

[Fonsz]

That was some weird Men, but maybe we saw a glimpse of the future or something? It looked very sturdy so I guess you won't feel a thing when you're hit.
The performance/demonstration how ever looked very impressive! Especially the synchronised strikes and timing and stuff. It looked very crispy as if it were dare I say Military Drill? It looked very good and if you can think away the Buck Rogers Men it was an extraordinary display of Kendo timing.
Maybe some Korean speaking Forumites can enlighten us on what is said and done here?

[Sirsmokesalot]

Hello!

They´re Men really look Strange... I don´t know what this is suposed to be? A new Bogu Product maybe? But what would it make different then the "standart" Men beside the "strange" look?

Regards
Sirsmokesalot

[bullet08]

hmm.. that men looks like it's some what molded to the head of the person who's wearing it. more like helmet then traditional men. tho.. i think it looks rather ugly.

pete

[Bennosuke]

It was weird. I don't think it was neccisarily ugly though. I'm just curious about what its for and why it was made.

[Kenzan]

I fully expect the Men to be rigged with some sort of an led that shows a "valid point".
I seem to remember reading somewhere on this forum that the Kumdo Federation wanted to incorporate that sort of thing, ala Fencing.

[johnkichu]

That's the new no-shock men that the Koreans are working on. It's suppose to be very sturdy and comfortable to wear, and provide much better proetection. It was developed mainly to protect young children better, whose brain is more susceptible to shock damage. I haven't seen it in person so I don't know what it feels like. Perhaps Team Korea will begin introducing it.

Traditionalists in Korea have already voiced their displeasure over it, without ever putting one on, and I'm sure traditionalists everywhere will do the same.

[cesarekim]

The video is from the SBS Kumdo Competition. From what I could understand from the commentators, it was a demonstration by 4 "kids".

The men is basically a new development for children and young adults. We've all been clubbed at some point so we know how painful that can be. Those men are made to protect the heads of the people practicing and is being pushed for children.

The SBS Competition is usually held in July so it's pretty recent. I will have a couple of friends check on this...

HTH
cesare

John already beat me to the punch. ;) Sorry for the double post:p

[Fonsz]

The video is from the SBS Kumdo Competition. From what I could understand from the commentators, it was a demonstration by 4 "kids".

The men is basically a new development for children and young adults. We've all been clubbed at some point so we know how painful that can be. Those men are made to protect the heads of the people practicing and is being pushed for children.

The SBS Competition is usually held in July so it's pretty recent. I will have a couple of friends check on this...

HTH
cesare

John already beat me to the punch. ;) Sorry for the double post:p I can understand the logic behind inventing something like this. But please don't tell me these guys were kids. If they are kids than I'm a grandfather of eighty years old. ..............Just noticed the kids in your post are between quotation marks. :o So they're not kids, but they sure looked very good and would make your Korean heart proud if you are Korean.

[Paikea]

So they're not kids, but they sure looked very good and would make your Korean heart proud if you are Korean.Everybody under 28 is a "kid" this year. Next year, it will be 29.

[Omnis]

Yeah, it looks like the flaps have really strong reinforcement where they meet the helmet. They also go in a whole lot when tsukied. I'm guessing that it's for extra protection against missed thrusts. That helmet looks pretty cool, though. It looks like everything-- even the mengane-- is made of that super-hard rubber stuff.

[目の届く限り]

It must be intended for kids but kids wouldn't do such a good presentation. Also they'd feel they're in a George Lucas movie and that wouldn't be good either... :silly:

[skull_leader]

i think it looks really good, and you know how koreans are so practical and weve seen how they use velcro hakamas so this will be their new men model.

by the way i also like their hakamas :laugh:
in fact i think there should be other colors for uniforms and bogus

[Kenzan]

I say, if they are going to go that route, might as well just add an electrified neon tube to the Shinai, Velcro on a flowing black cape, and instead of shouting MEEEEEEN or whatever the equivalent is in Hangeul, just simply run around telling everyone that they are their father, and practice making menacing raised fist clenches at each other.
:D

[ShinKenshi]

I know that Bogubag (http://www.bogubag.com/Bogu/Machine_5mm/machine_5mm.html) sells bogu that is reinforced on the kote and men with a material called sorbothane that is supposed to distribute the force of the strikes throughout the piece of material, reducing the impact felt by the kendoka. I've got a heel pad made with sorbothane and can vouch for that. It's a 5.5 mm stitch and they claim it's designed for smaller people who have a tendency of getting hit too hard. Since this is already out on the market, I don't really see the need to develop this new men, although it does seem sturdier and more likely to prevent injury to the ear from a wayward men strike.

[Usagi San]

You know, I really like the way it looks. I mean I thimk it's good product-design. I prefer the current ones, but for a re-invention, I think it's a good re-invention.

[Kuri]

Anyone else notice that there are no himo on the men. Looks like there's a strap that wraps around the back of the head. Velcro attachment??? If it's good enough for hakama... Video quality wasn't the best, so I'm no sure.

[kendoholic]

The announcer says the demonstrators are students majoring in Aisan Martial Art at Yong-In University(one specialized in martial arts). They've been kumdo(kendo) scholoarship students ever since their junior high age digesting 5-6 hours of daily intense training at least 5 days a week. Good for them.:)

[sainueng]

Anyone else notice that there are no himo on the men. Looks like there's a strap that wraps around the back of the head. Velcro attachment??? If it's good enough for hakama... Video quality wasn't the best, so I'm no sure.

You're right, there is no himo. If you look closely you see there is a strap on the back of the head, sitting at about the middle of the head, in the middle of the tenugui. To me it looks like nothing is coming from the mengane at all. Without the strings coming from the top of the mengane I would find it a bigger hassle to explain the locations of the saiyu men strikes in kirikaeshi to a complete beginner. :p Personally I would trust velcro for hakama, but not the men. The men undergoes a lot heavier impact much more often.

I think the tops look more rounded than current men designs, and have some holes or something at the top, like the new football helmets. Would that make it harder to score on because your opponent's shinai slips more frequently? Although it looks like the demonstrators don't really have that problem. The mengane also looks larger and extend higher to the top than what I'm used to seeing. It doesn't seem like it makes the nice sound a proper men hit should, but the quality of the recording could be to blame.

[Kenzan]

Why not just make a dial in the back of the band like construction hard hats?
:ermm:

I'm not too fond of it.
To me, it looks like an attempt to distinguish something into something else, and I don't like where my mind goes with respect to that road.

[Bennosuke]

I think its good in concept. The points opposing it are very valid though, and I'd like to see what the designers have to say about that. But if you can create something safer without any real negative side effects (accept maybe astheticly) then it is a good thing.

[Omnis]

Look like an elastic band a'la ski goggles.

[Kent Enfield]

Oooooo....

They've invented a men that allows you to receive men strikes in kendo.

They've inspired me to start working on my dream project: a car that runs on gasoline.

[Karaken]

The commentators words are "Pay attention to MEN. This is a newly developed MEN to prevent any damage from strikes especially for young children and old men whose brains are susceptible to damage". The demonstrators are not kids but they also practice 5-6 days a week so I'm sure they'd appreciate it. Besides how it looks ( I'm sure it'll be improved before it goes on sale ), I'm all for it. We all know how painful a MEN can be from a certain Kenshi or when Mob of people do it to you continuously..

[icy_flame]

Or new people, but I suppose it's not exactly low end bogu for non-children, if you buy this stuff you're really into kendo, yes I'm sure it'll become more asthetically pleasing when it goes onto shelves.

Is it more than just the Men? It seems like this same material was applied to certian parts of the Do aswell. However that could just me me...

[kendoholic]

oops, cannot delete..sorry.

[skull_leader]

why do people get so on their nerves about a new model of men or new stuff in kendo, is like they use the current bogu which has probably evolved and they dont think that they were some hard headed people like them, who also must have said "oh that plastic fiber do sucks i prefer the bamboo do"

yeah why dont use the technology we have to create new useful stuff, dont be hard headed, well maybe thats why you dont need the new men

[Kenzan]

why do people get so on their nerves about a new model of men or new stuff in kendo...

Is there a problem with the Men we have now?

[Kent Enfield]

yeah why dont use the technology we have to create new useful stuff, dont be hard headed, well maybe thats why you dont need the new menBecause it's fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

"Newer" doesn't automatically equate with "better".

[PenPen]

Because it's fixing a problem that doesn't exist.


Yeah, duh, why try to improve something if it works already, screw those ppl who use Duraluminum and, god for bid, Titanium in their men! Cosue heavy steel worked just fine. Maybe one day the will invent a fade resistant dye for gi's and use polyester in hakama's or maybe... just maybe.... they replace bamboo w/ Carbon Graphite!!!!!:gasmask: :eek:

/sarcasm

Dont criticize ideas just because its new and forgin to you... unless your Amish then it's ok.

[streetcleaner]

those koreans will bury kendo someday...

[Alison2805]

Oooooo....

They've invented a men that allows you to receive men strikes in kendo.

They've inspired me to start working on my dream project: a car that runs on gasoline.

For gods sake, theres nothing wrong with progress. Noone is forcing you to buy it. IF its better than the origonal, people will buy it, if not they wont. I think something that offers more protection for kids is a great thing.

And the guy who made the comment about "those koreans" is blatently racist. Think before you post.

[streetcleaner]

Noone is forcing you to buy it
you just dont understand. instead of working on correct cuts they invent progress - carbon shinais, fiberglass mengane, now those shitty mens... kendo should not be easy, safer and funny. there's all right with kendo as it is.

[verissimus]

Because it's fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

"Newer" doesn't automatically equate with "better".

Yeah, try telling Bill Gates that.

Part of the fun is creating new problems. That's what leads to wars, weapons, and employment.

[streetcleaner]

Part of the fun is creating new problems
dont you have enough problems with you cuts, footwork, timing and so on?

[Kent Enfield]

Yeah, duh, why try to improve something if it works already, screw those ppl who use Duraluminum and, god for bid, Titanium in their men! Cosue heavy steel worked just fine. Maybe one day the will invent a fade resistant dye for gi's and use polyester in hakama's or maybe... just maybe.... they replace bamboo w/ Carbon Graphite!!!!!:gasmask: :eek:

/sarcasm

Dont criticize ideas just because its new and forgin to you... unless your Amish then it's ok.I'm not criticizing it because it's new and "forgin". I'm criticizing it because it's f***ing ugly. Let's look at all the things you listed:

duraluminum mengane: lighter, but weaker than steel. Looks the same.
titanium mengane: stronger than duraluminum, more corrosion resistant than steel. Looks the same.
chemical dye: cheaper and perhaps more convenient than indigo. Looks almost the same.
polyester hakama: cheaper and lower mainenance than natural fibers. However, it isn't as comfortable, nor does it look quite the same. Most people eventually stop using them.
carbon fiber shinai: more durable than bamboo, but doesn't look, feel, sound, or handle the same. Most people don't like them, and if they use them, only use them to keep good shinai from being damaged (e.g. receiving kirikaeshi from beginners).

Now, this new "men": What's the upside? It supposedly protects better than a "regular" men? Does it? A real men already protects pretty damn well. And the solution to people hitting too hard is to have them not hit so hard. Is there a rash of korean children suffering brain damage from kendo? Does this "men" protect better than an actual men of the same cost? If so, then it has an upside. But it barely has a passing resemblance to a real men. That's a huge downside.

As Kenzan wrote, "Is there a problem with the men we have now?"

Now, if you want to go personal, I can do the same. But I'm a grown-up, so I'd prefer not to.

[Kent Enfield]

For gods sake, theres nothing wrong with progress.Convince me that this is progress.

As far as I can tell, it's just newness for its own sake.

[ahmed61086]

I hope that was sarcasm streetcleaner. BTW, its hard to teach young kids perfect technique, as a matter of fact, its hard to teach anyone perfect technique. Whats the big deal if someone is thinking about saving their kids from brain damage.

[ReKru]

Because it's fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

You should say "that I'm not aware of".


"Newer" doesn't automatically equate with "better".

Neither does "traditional".

If my kid ever starts Kendo, I'd damn sure want the best protective gear for her to make it as painless of an experience as possible.
Aestetic and traditionalist considerations are really that last concerns in that case.

[streetcleaner]

Whats the big deal if someone is thinking about saving their kids from brain damage.
kendo is HARD. if someone dont like this - send kids play chess or ballet

[streetcleaner]

its hard to teach young kids perfect technique, as a matter of fact, its hard to teach anyone perfect technique.
just dont rush to get into bogu

[ReKru]

kendo is HARD. if someone dont like this - send kids play chess or ballet

You do with your offspring what you want, I do with mine what I want.

Deal?

[ahmed61086]

kendo is HARD. if someone dont like this - send kids play chess or ballet

Who said you are supposed to get brain damage from Kendo, or that we even want that as a possibility? I have never heard of such a thing. Kendo is supposed to be a Martial art where the practioner is free of worry of fatal and/or serious injury. I have actually heard that kendo is supposed to be safe, not the other way around.

Yeh, kendo is Hard, and I still practice it, but its a different type of hard than lets say, MMA or Boxing.

[Alison2805]

Convince me that this is progress.

As far as I can tell, it's just newness for its own sake.

As far as you can tell from looking at one little video. Im sure if you talked to the people who are making these they would explain why they are making it. Personally, I would really like it of there was a men that looked the same as a normal one but was more cushioned for kids. The few kids that I personally have seen start kendo often ended up in tears from pain when someone a lot bigger forgets that they arent used to being hit.

[streetcleaner]

You do with your offspring what you want, I do with mine what I want. Deal?
just keep in mind that supporting such a thing you are killing kendo. deal?

[Alison2805]

you just dont understand. instead of working on correct cuts they invent progress - carbon shinais, fiberglass mengane, now those shitty mens... kendo should not be easy, safer and funny. there's all right with kendo as it is.

So what youre saying is everyone who once practiced kendo in korea have stopped in order to manufacture things? That is a very generalised, ignorant statement.

And you think kendo should not be safer? Ive had enough lumps on the had and nasty headaches after trainings to know that the men could definitely use a bit of improvement.

Can we get this idiot banned or something please?

[streetcleaner]

Who said you are supposed to get brain damage from Kendo
as i said before - dont rush to get into bogu and nobody get a brain damage. but people just want to fight in bogu after one month of training... and as a result they invent such a thing. nobody needs this men. only newbies, who dont listen their senseis. ignoramus rule anywhere

[shred_lord]

Hmmmm.

Kendoooookkaaaaa froooommmm Spacccceeeeeee!

I'm fairly certain that these won't become popular unless those damn carbon shinai become more popular. Especially considering the percieved status of handstitched bogu.

If the developers had made it look like a fabric men, then it would have have satisfied the majority. Instead it looks kinda funky. Few will have the balls to wear one, and thus they'll probably fall of the radar.

[ReKru]

just keep in mind that supporting such a thing you are killing kendo.

Very funny.

If it's IKF approved (like carbon shinai and hasegawa men), it IS Kendo.
Maybe it's not the way you like to see Kendo practiced, but if your kind of Kendo gets killed by a single non-traditional men, it probably deserves to die.



Especially considering the percieved status of handstitched bogu.

For Kids? If you're filthy rich you can probably afford a new custom hand-stiched bogu for your child every 6-12 month. :D

[streetcleaner]

Can we get this idiot banned or something please?
who are WE? people who cant tie the men correct?

[Alison2805]

We, as in everyone on this forum who doesnt want to listen to racist troll comments like yours.

[streetcleaner]

We, as in everyone on this forum who doesnt want to listen to racist comments like yours.
we dont like to listen you. go ban yourself

3rd kyu? do more kirikaeshi

troll? look at my join date, kid. than look at yours

[streetcleaner]

Very funny.

If it's IKF approved (like carbon shinai and hasegawa men), it IS Kendo.
Maybe it's not the way you like to see Kendo practiced, but if your kind of Kendo gets killed by a single non-traditional men, it probably deserves to die.

dont kendo teach you respect traditions?

[ReKru]

dont kendo teach you respect traditions?

Values, not gear.

Kendo would not exist, if it 'respected' gear.

[Kent Enfield]

You should say "that I'm not aware of".You're right. Now what problem that I'm not aware of is this fixing? Where are all the brain-damaged people who started kendo as kids over the last 50 years? They must all be at some secret location, because I've not heard of any of them. Has there been some study that shows that kids who do kendo have lower test scores?


Neither does "traditional".And I never said it did. But in a traditional activity, "tradition" carries more weight than "fixing a problem that gives no signs that it exists". At least with me.


If my kid ever starts Kendo, I'd damn sure want the best protective gear for her to make it as painless of an experience as possible.
Aestetic and traditionalist considerations are really that last concerns in that case.So, if this thing doesn't pan out, you'd be willing to purchase a new set of something like Mine bogu every year or two? I certainly wouldn't. And it's a martial art, a combat sport. Why is it supposed to be painless? I'm pretty sure I've had a welt somewhere on my body for the last six years.

[Alison2805]

So you joined earlier and contributed less. Congrats.

That doesnt entitle you to be racist in an online forum and expect noone to say something about it.

Ive had enough of arguing with narrow-minded people, Im going home. To kill kendo with my non-cotten hakama. Die! DIE! :cool2:

[Kent Enfield]

As far as you can tell from looking at one little video. Im sure if you talked to the people who are making these they would explain why they are making it. And if they told me it was to protect children from brain damage, I'd ask them if current men don't already do that. They certainly seem to.

Personally, I would really like it of there was a men that looked the same as a normal one but was more cushioned for kids. The few kids that I personally have seen start kendo often ended up in tears from pain when someone a lot bigger forgets that they arent used to being hit.Your dojo must be significantly different than the ones I've been in. I've not seen any kids crying. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but if it happens with every one of them, maybe your dojo has some issues that need to be addressed.

If they're crying because they aren't used to getting hit, I'd say that's just something that they have to get used to. Getting hit is part of kendo. It occasionally hurting is part of kendo. Sometimes you've just got to admit that it's not for everyone.

Or they could always buy better gear, if only that already existed . . .

[Kent Enfield]

Streetcleaner,

Surrounding one good point in a cloud of idiocy and immaturity does not help that point in any way.

[ReKru]

Has there been some study that shows that kids who do kendo have lower test scores?

I'm not aware of the existance of such studies. They would be hard to find in Europe anyway, since our junior Kendo population is small enough to fit in one schoolbus or two.
I'm not riding the 'severe brain damage' train, either. I'm on the 'best protection possible' side.


So, if this thing doesn't pan out, you'd be willing to purchase a new set of something like Mine bogu every year or two? I certainly wouldn't.

A good sorbotane pad and some wrist protectors in the club bogu should do.


And it's a martial art, a combat sport. Why is it supposed to be painless? I'm pretty sure I've had a welt somewhere on my body for the last six years.

As painless as possible.

Why should it be painfull? Or at least more painfull than the absolute minimum?
No pain no gain? Valuable lessons for life? People with nipple-piercings are better people?
If that's how you like it, I have no objections. I just don't share that attitude.

[Kent Enfield]

Okay, I've gone back and watched the video yet again.

Now, besides my initial criticisms of these men being repulsively ugly and fixing a problem that no one has shown exists, I have two more.

The mengane is placed awfully high. During shomen-uchi, the only way to strike the menbuton without striking the mengane, even on an aite of the same height, is to strike with the shinai horizontal. That certainly isn't what I was taught is good technique. So these men seem to be shinai breakers.

The tsukidare is high and far forward. Because of this, the force of tsuki pops the motodachi's head down, as can be seen in the clip, rather than going into the chest without torquing the neck.

[Kent Enfield]

A good sorbotane pad and some wrist protectors in the club bogu should do.So a solution already exists? If it does, what do these space-man helmets offer?

Why should it be painfull?I didn't say it should be painful. I said it is. Sucking it up to a certain extent is part of kendo.

Or at least more painfull than the absolute minimum?Well, that would require there to be no contact, and that just wouldn't be kendo.

No pain no gain?No, that's just silly. You can make gains without pain.

Valuable lessons for life?Actually, yeah. Not everything that hurts is bad for you. Not everything worth doing is always pleasant. And sometimes you've just got to gut it out. But before someone creates this strawman, I'm not saying that one should intentionally cause pain as some sort of "moral development" training.

People with nipple-piercings are better people?No, they're just odd. But that's an entirely different discussion.

If that's how you like it, I have no objections. I just don't share that attitude.Clearly.

[shred_lord]

So you joined earlier and contributed less. Congrats.A higher post count doth not make opinion more valid.

And before anyone jumps on me I don't particularly agree with streetcleaner either.

Alison: I'm capable of cutting small children without making them cry. I'm only shodan, and only done kendo for 1.5 years. If someone in you dojo has a habit of getting carried away and belting kids, then stop them fencing kids.

Streetcleaner: Look at bogu from 100 years ago. I wonder if this debate went on when leathered/laquered do first became available.

I personally don't like this men. But only because it looks stupid.

[ReKru]

So a solution already exists? If it does, what do these space-man helmets offer?

I haven't tested them, so how should I know. :P
If they're developed to protect the junior's head better, than that's maybe what they offer.
Velcro himo exist already, even on japanese men.


I didn't say it should be painful. I said it is. Sucking it up to a certain extent is part of kendo.

Avoiding it is the other part, though.
Or else we could just stop developing better bogu and just 'free spar, full contact, full speed with bokken in our backyard just like the old samurai did' (I've seen that in "The Last Samurai", so I know) :P

Children are not 'small adults' (and there's studies about that) - if someone develops better protective gear than just downsized adult bogu, I don't give a rat's ass about tradition ('traditionally' a daughter should have her feet crippled that their size never exceeds baby shoes to be 'attractive' as well /shrug .. don't need to adopt all nonsense because it's 'traditional') or looks (does that bogu exist in pink? :D ).

That high-mengane and strange tsuki-dare positioning is indeed strange, though.

[shred_lord]

Velcro himo exist already, even on japanese men. Velcro himo like velcro hakama, just smacks of lazyness. I don't use them for the same reason that I no longer use do himo buttons (Which are a much less extreme example). But then, I tie Kansai style, so maybe I'm just odd.

[Usagi San]

just keep in mind that supporting such a thing you are killing kendo. deal?

Care to elaborate a little?

by the way, have you ever seen old kendo films?
Did you know that what you call "tradition" and "respect" today, was called "killing kendo" not that long ago? Did you know that, for instance, kote were costumized? Meaning there was NO rules about how long/short kote should be? Same thing with shinai size? That old Do looked like a small barrel of jack daniels? I'm not even starting with carbon shinai...

Everytime someone does a diferent design of something that exist, there's always a choir of so called traditionalists barking.
Why the hell should you improve/modify things? Hey, how's your Ford T going this days? Yeah good old design.

[shred_lord]

kote were costumizedI'm certain that you meant to say customized, but if not does that mean I can put these on my kote. Please! :) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250012026988)
(http://i20.ebayimg.com/03/i/00/88/12/71_1.JPG)

[streetcleaner]

by the way, have you ever seen old kendo films?
yep. some of them. Showa Tenran Shiai for example. bogu looks the same, kendo looks nearly the same

[Usagi San]

I'm certain that you meant to say customized, but if not does that mean I can put these on my kote. Please! :) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250012026988)
(http://i20.ebayimg.com/03/i/00/88/12/71_1.JPG)

Oops. Of course you're right. Me no engrish sir. Sorry, hehe, sorry .:o

[Usagi San]

yep. some of them. Showa Tenran Shiai for example. bogu looks the same, kendo looks nearly the same

Nearly the same? You say? Let's see if I remember, oh... ok:

Have you suffered much recently with those swinging shinai strikes in the ears?
Have you done many do striking with one knee on the ground?
And how many nito fighters using a "small" shoto like those have you fought against these days?
And (we don't see those in Showa Tenran Shiai but they were ok back then)
how many times have you fall due to leg sweeps recently?
Or have your men taken off by your adversary?

Your "nearly the same" looks" a little diferent" to me.
As a matter of fact, they killed kendo already. Oh my God, Kendo today is a corpse. Deal?

[R_Haydon]

I'm capable of cutting small children without making them cry.

Not to detract from the various discussions here, but that struck me as rather funny.

Back to work...sigh...

[shred_lord]

Not to detract from the various discussions here, but that struck me as rather funny.

Back to work...sigh...Hehe. Originally it said "I'm capable of hitting small children without making them cry." but I thought... no. :lick:

[neko]

i agree with those that are not fond of the new men. more than anything to me it looks cheap and cheesy. i agree that there really isn't a problem that exists with the men. if you need more protection, use a men pad. but if they want to improve something, why not improve the kote? if any one is going to get hurt somewhere, it is there.

[kartoffelngeist]

I'm certain that you meant to say customized, but if not does that mean I can put these on my kote. Please! :) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250012026988)
(http://i20.ebayimg.com/03/i/00/88/12/71_1.JPG)

I'm aware this will add very little to the discussion, but they would be so cool, get the whole Shredder look going...

As regards the discsussion, it's the same in most things. There are still a lot of photographers who complain about digital killing photography, or DJs who complain about people mixing with CDs or mp3s.

The only way we'll know if these men are any use is if people use them and like them (which is probably unlikely to happen till some aesthetic issues are resolved, 'cause they do look a bit silly...)

[johnkichu]

Like I said, a lot of comments by people who've never tried one on, or even seen one in real life!

Keep in mind - what's on the video is work in process. I'm not sure what the final product will look like, and I'm pretty sure that no one will force anyone to buy them.

If wearing one over the other makes you feel like a better kendoka, go for it, but don't criticize others who wear something different. One's kendo should speak for itself on the floor, not through what you wear.

BTW - I agree with the person who suggests that it's the kote that needs improving, not the men.

[ShinKenshi]

A good sorbotane pad and some wrist protectors in the club bogu should do.As I said in my earlier post, bogubag sells bogu, the S-14 set, with sorbothane stitched into it (http://www.bogubag.com/Bogu/Machine_5mm/machine_5mm.html). Scroll down a little.


Why should it be painfull? Or at least more painfull than the absolute minimum? No pain no gain? Valuable lessons for life? People with nipple-piercings are better people? If that's how you like it, I have no objections. I just don't share that attitude.I think what people are trying to say is that it shouldn't be pain free. Some pain is fine because it just can't be helped sometimes, especially in kendo. To an extent, the old phrase, "No pain, no gain," is a vaild one but not to extremes. If it's cursory pain such as a small bruise on the wrists from multiple kote strikes or some light pain from missed do strikes, then I don't see much of a problem with it. If it's pain from severe headaches from horrible men strikes, bad neck pain from missed tsuki and such, then that's too far. Everything in moderation.

[Munnin]

Since my first days in bogu I said that it would be possible to make armor that was both cheaper and protected better using modern materials. Since then I have come to admire the simplicity and well thought out nature of modern bogu. Overall the men is a neat piece of engineering. Yet at the same time I still feel the original statement is correct.

The thing that strikes me as odd here is that they bothered to make them like traditional men at all. Much easier would have been to adopt a football style helmet and shoulder pads. Add a plastic shield for the fact plate, and a secondary layer of protection off the shoulder pad to cover the throat.

As far as this men goes I say don’t bother with the additional shoulder protection, if you’re a head dodger take your bruises. The top of the men looks too hard and looks like it will wear shinai out faster. Not sure about the rest I do wish I could see one in person.

[ahmed61086]

Have you done many do striking with one knee on the ground?


I have been wanting to do that, just like the kata right? But I realy doubt if I would get ippon.


Has anyone ever tried this lately?



Munnin, have you ever had your first rib knocked out of place by a stray strike that hit near the shoulders. Its not nice, and you feel realy sick. Im not a huge head dodger, but sometimes shit happens. If anything I think the shoulder padding could be a little bit more.

[Kenzan]

Here's what bothers me, and it's probably wrong to feel this way, but...

Let's say; oh, hypothetically, that I was introduced to Kendo many years ago.
-And then let's say my Sensei was a real super-jerk to me and my buddies, in fact, he was a downright racist A-hole, and to top it off, the country he came from was super-evil to us too. After years of abuse, my friends and some of us students decided it would be best to stop going to the Dojo altogether.
Then let's propose that some of us decided that we still really liked Kendo, but disliked the traditions associated with it because it reminded us of our Jackass Sensei's actions and his country.
Then let's say that since I have no more Sensei from that land, some of us just start making stuff up to suit me and my mine, you know, to make it more comfortable to our culture. Such as keep what I like, and toss the rest.

Let's also say that I finally come to grips with my hatred of that Sensei and his evil nation so much that I decide to name my Kendo something else, and since it is something other than Kendo, and since It's my own, well, then I MUST have invented it, right? RIGHT! And to explain this, I'll just incorporate my new style into the history of my country by loosely linking it to ancient paths and incidents and people, which crossed between the two countries in question. I mean, our two nations where so close to each other, it'll be easy for people to swallow.

Further along, we ponder to make our own traditions, rules, and even to use it as a tool to further our own nationalistic pride by attempting to make it an Olympic event.
Well, as it turned out, my own evil Sensei and his group didn't like what I was doing, and they tried to dismiss me. But hey, screw him, HE was the evil dude to me, and so was his country, so he and his "rules" and "traditions" can go take a flying leap. Some of us have made our art distinctly ours now. We want no part of that "other" art.
Then let's say that some of us realized we have the potential to make scads of money doing this. Mechanizing, Dojo fees, and any other fees we feel should be tacked on, right? I mean, a guy's gotta make a living, right?
Well, now that some of us have our own style, make our own rules, and now that we do what we want, when we want with respect to that style, some of us are now free to further the art as we see fit.
There's just one problem. My style's equipment looks so much like the other evil "stolen from us" style that I need to make it so different in appearance that no one will question that the two stem from each other in any way.

This way, some of us can make more money, and perhaps have a better chance to get the world to recognize our style for Olympic consideration, and when that happens, some of us will hope to not only crush and humiliate those old evil Sensei and his cohorts, but we will also humiliate him, and rise up our own nations pride in the process.
And then there's the money. Did I mention the money?

Note: I include many times the generalization of "some of us." I do not mean to imply that the majority feels or acts this way at all.

As I said, my view has the possibility that it may be ignorant, not fully informed, or just plain wrong, and I'm always willing to change my view as evidence presents itself.
But so far, the evidence to me anyway looks like the above "hypothetical" is at least one possible explanation of why we are seeing strange things like rubberized Men.

[johnkichu]

As I said, my view has the possibility that it may be ignorant, not fully informed, or just plain wrong, and I'm always willing to change my view as evidence presents itself.
But so far, the evidence to me anyway looks like the above "hypothetical" is at least one possible explanation of why we are seeing strange things like rubberized Men.

Yes, it is ignorant, not fully informed, and just plain wrong. What evidence are you looking at?

[Kenzan]

Yes, it is ignorant, not fully informed, and just plain wrong. What evidence are you looking at?

Which part do you feel is this way?
And why?

[Kenzan]

On the other question,
Most of my opinions have been formed from life experience and anecdotal evidence, and again,
for better or worse, and it's purely my own bias.

However, the first that comes to mind is:

http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/web/korea/index.php

[verissimus]

dont you have enough problems with you cuts, footwork, timing and so on?

I actually have bigger problems than kendo, but let's not go into that.

[johnkichu]

Oh boy, are we going to get into this again? I hope you really want to discuss this, and are not just baiting or trawling.

Let's say; oh, hypothetically, that I was introduced to Kendo many years ago.

Korea had a long sword tradition before what you call kendo even developed.


Then let's say that since I have no more Sensei from that land, some of us just start making stuff up to suit me and my mine, you know, to make it more comfortable to our culture. Such as keep what I like, and toss the rest.

Very little of indigenous forms or techniques were “made up” after the fact. Stuff like Bon Kuk Gum Bup existed before the samurai tradition in Japan. Kumdo, as it is taught in Korea and elsewhere, doesn’t really have new stuff added to it, and is basically identical to kendo.


Let's also say that I finally come to grips with my hatred of that Sensei and his evil nation so much that I decide to name my Kendo something else, and since it is something other than Kendo, and since It's my own, well, then I MUST have invented it, right? RIGHT! And to explain this, I'll just incorporate my new style into the history of my country by loosely linking it to ancient paths and incidents and people, which crossed between the two countries in question. I mean, our two nations where so close to each other, it'll be easy for people to swallow.

Korean Kumdo Association’s own history rightfully credits Japan with making kendo what it is today. KKA only claim that Korea also has a long sword art tradition. Much of this is actually well documented - both in Korean and Chinese texts, even after an systematic and concerted effort by the occupying Japanesse authories to eliminate so much. There is no need to loosely link anything. If your only contact with Koreans are with those who claim kendo as Korean, or your only contact with Japanese are those who are rabidly anti-Korean, you need to widen your circle of acquaintances. You seem to have swallowed a lot.

Further along, we ponder to make our own traditions, rules, and even to use it as a tool to further our own nationalistic pride by attempting to make it an Olympic event.

Actually, the vast majority of KKA community is opposed to kumdo/kendo becoming an Olympic event. You’re making an unwarranted assumption here. And the rest of you ramblings are just your opinions.

And now, your turn - what evidence were you basing your writing on?

[sainueng]

Since my first days in bogu I said that it would be possible to make armor that was both cheaper and protected better using modern materials. Since then I have come to admire the simplicity and well thought out nature of modern bogu. Overall the men is a neat piece of engineering. Yet at the same time I still feel the original statement is correct.

The thing that strikes me as odd here is that they bothered to make them like traditional men at all. Much easier would have been to adopt a football style helmet and shoulder pads. Add a plastic shield for the fact plate, and a secondary layer of protection off the shoulder pad to cover the throat.

As far as this men goes I say don’t bother with the additional shoulder protection, if you’re a head dodger take your bruises. The top of the men looks too hard and looks like it will wear shinai out faster. Not sure about the rest I do wish I could see one in person.

I disagree with NOT making the new helmet (if one is warranted) the same as traditional men. In fact, I think it's already too different (high megane, rounded top, holes on top). My reasoning is if the men is significantly different, the men strike will have to be changed to adapt. I don't see a men strike working the same way on a football helmet as a men. Yes, philosophically and ideally a proper men strike should work regardless, but you can design armor to prevent proper strikes. For instance, think of all the pointed cones in Western armor. Having the head proctection comes up into a point is good protection from a functional stand point, but then strikes also need to evolve to maximize effectiveness. From there it degenerates into an armor or technology race.

Kendo in its current form is no longer a life and death situation. A technology race that would give overt tactical advantages should not happen, imo. A change in equipment that would invalidate strikes and forms that have been taught and practiced probably shouldn't happen either, although I'm sure some may disagree with the later statement.

My main point is that equipment change should not be so drastic that it changes the kendo, the strikes, that is being taught. When sword fighting used to be a life and death situation, yes, by all means armor should evolve, forcing weapons and attacks to evlove, forcing armor to evolve, etc. That led to guns and flak vests and more. Given what kendo means now (different for different people), I think safer equipment is an admirable goal, but one that must be tempered against "what is currently deficient" and "is this too drastic a change".

On a side note, the traditional design of the men and the men himo also reinforce certain ettiquettes and mental discipline. For example, you're not supposed to take it off like a football helmet, you're supposed to wipe your face before revealing yourself fully, you're supposed to have the men himo flat, parallel, and even, you're supposed to look through the proper spacing in the mengane, etc.

[verissimus]

I actually have bigger problems than kendo, but let's not go into that.

The point I am trying to make (which probably has little to do with this discussion) is that sometimes problems created for their own sake are also useful. This may across as somewhat ivory tower-ish, but I suppose the sixth year in grad school will do that to anyone.

[Ignatz]

I have been wanting to do that, just like the kata right? But I realy doubt if I would get ippon.

Nuki do from one knee had a little bit of popularity 10-12 years ago. I only saw it done once in shiai.

[Kenzan]

And now, your turn - what evidence were you basing your writing on?

I would be earnestly interested if you have any resources or may point me to taht I may read more on the subject.

[Robobob]

concerning the new men: If someone thinks he needs better protecting men, feel free to buy it. But: oh my gosh is this ugly! Buy it, but please allow me to laugh...
concerning pain: I´ve been taught (and believe) if something hurts, there´s something done wrong. Kote hurts more if you have wrong hand position. Achillestendon hurts if you have wrong foot position. Head hurts if your opponent hits wrong. It is an important indicator for potential improvement. And I also think that it is important to learn to stand the pain. This doesn´t mean we should hurt each other intentionally, but shit happens and kendo is about going through it.
concerning tradition: the whole thing is traditional. Of course. Otherwise we would do fencing. Or biathlon or whatever. If you don´t like the tradition, why use shinais, not padded sticks? Why wear hakama? Why do reiho? Because it´s traditional, it is timeless. That makes it so fascinating. It is a ritualized, more or less finished system. These rituals, call them reiho, make up the philosophical context, they are important. I´m not conservative, I don´t want to ban anything new and I am also fond of individualism, but I think tradition is important too. In Kendo, not necessarily in real life.

[johnkichu]

You are right - the problem is finding things in English to point you to. KKA site is in Korean, as are most of the academic sites. Let me look around, but for starters, Alex Bennet has a very good write up on Korea and its place in kendo, right on Kendo World's homepage.

[Usagi San]

I fail to see what this new (& beautiful ;) ) Men has to do with the olympic issue, but then again I guess nowadays when there's something we don't like/agree, we can always invoque and trust the Aaaaaamazing OlympiKendoBoogeyMan.

[bullet08]

i would try following link.

http://www.kumdo.com/ushwarangkwan/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=6

pete

[T.Lee]

sheesh, 7 pages and no one thought of making a Spaceballs allusion after seeing that clip?

:bandit:

[PenPen]

I'm not criticizing it because it's new and "forgin". I'm criticizing it because it's f***ing ugly. Let's look at all the things you listed:

duraluminum mengane: lighter, but weaker than steel. Looks the same.
titanium mengane: stronger than duraluminum, more corrosion resistant than steel. Looks the same.
chemical dye: cheaper and perhaps more convenient than indigo. Looks almost the same.
polyester hakama: cheaper and lower mainenance than natural fibers. However, it isn't as comfortable, nor does it look quite the same. Most people eventually stop using them.
carbon fiber shinai: more durable than bamboo, but doesn't look, feel, sound, or handle the same. Most people don't like them, and if they use them, only use them to keep good shinai from being damaged (e.g. receiving kirikaeshi from beginners).

Now, this new "men": What's the upside? It supposedly protects better than a "regular" men? Does it? A real men already protects pretty damn well. And the solution to people hitting too hard is to have them not hit so hard. Is there a rash of korean children suffering brain damage from kendo? Does this "men" protect better than an actual men of the same cost? If so, then it has an upside. But it barely has a passing resemblance to a real men. That's a huge downside.

As Kenzan wrote, "Is there a problem with the men we have now?"

Now, if you want to go personal, I can do the same. But I'm a grown-up, so I'd prefer not to.

Uh, when you quote someone and then try to respond in criticizm, please make sure you know what the hell you quoted and what they were talking about.
I'm sure you don't under stand, so let me help:

Take into note what I quoted from you:

Because it's fixing a problem that doesn't exist.


And then what I said:

Yeah, duh, why try to improve something if it works already, screw those ppl who use Duraluminum and, god for bid, Titanium in their men! Cosue heavy steel worked just fine. Maybe one day the will invent a fade resistant dye for gi's and use polyester in hakama's or maybe... just maybe.... they replace bamboo w/ Carbon Graphite!!!!!:gasmask: :eek:

/sarcasm

Dont criticize ideas just because its new and forgin to you... unless your Amish then it's ok.

So... I'm missing the part where you find need to defend your self about if it "looks good" or not and stuff about brain damage and... basically everything you said...

I believe you missed the point of my post.

I was going to try and respond about other things you have said but after seeing how many time you spammed this fourm with ignorant defence I will save you the time you will spend making a fool of yourself by not posting anything you should respond to.

I can sum up all our your narrow minded ignorance with one quote:

You're right. Now what problem that I'm not aware of is this fixing? Where are all the brain-damaged people who started kendo as kids over the last 50 years? They must all be at some secret location, because I've not heard of any of them.

I LOL'd, really, I did.

And I can't help but add one more that I really liked too:

And if they told me it was to protect children from brain damage, I'd ask them if current men don't already do that.
...couse companies need to check and get permission with you or anyone else before they make something inovative?


(I think I'm going back on what I said about not giving you something to repond to)

Oh btw, the ending of you nonsence post contained this:

Now, if you want to go personal, I can do the same. But I'm a grown-up, so I'd prefer not to.

You, sir, are an Idiot. There now get personal.
:eek:

[Kenzan]

Just to be clear, from my part, I am not attempting to bash Kumdo or Korea at all. I think perhaps I was not as sensitive in my post to this fact, on how it could be viewed in another light. For this I apologize.

My point is that, while I am certain the vast majority of Kumdo practitioners do not fall into the generalizations I have made at all, there are at least a small minority of clubs or organizations that perhaps do. I know this because I have belonged to some of them in the past.

The basis for my previous post exists in American Martial Arts today, whereby it the situation becomes all about the equipment and sales of equipment (and rank) as a revenue stream, rather than the true points of the art itself.
One only has to view certain Dojos to see this effect in action.
Again, not all, but there exist some (Though in Los Angeles there appear to be many.)
I see many Martial Art Associations and Federations as possible powerful entities in the retail business world.
Bottom line is, Flashy cool and High tech looking equipment puts cash-paying, contract-signing students in the classroom. And as such, often what often comprises good business may not necessarily translate into preservation for the benefit of an art's essence.

The crux of my argument against these new Men was that it appears on the surface (at least to me) that this is an attempt to further differentiate Kumdo from Kendo at least in terms of equipment, although to be fair, as newer technologies become available I suppose someone has to invent them.
So I guess I do have some unresolved Kumdo/Kendo issues.
Thank you to those who kindly posted the links on Kumdo history by the way. I do indeed plan to read up on the subject more closely.


:)

[Paikea]

You, sir, are an Idiot. There now get personal.
:eek:Plonk. How's Japan treating you Kent?

[Frame]

Kenzan reread your post and think for a second.

1. They are just in it for profit
2. They are trying to diffentiate Kendo and Kumdo

Thus they will not try and sell this to the Japanese market right?
er what? There's a couple million people doing kendo in japan, that sounds like alot of profit to me.

also at some point down the line weren't there many types of shinai, i.e not the 4 form thing that we have today, and even when it did come about, it varied in length until the Tokugawa military office said it had to be no longer than a certain length?

Jeez it's not as if they put flames down the side of it. I find this far less offensive than the american flag hakama.

Also whoever said "Kendo is supposed to be hard" ( i cba to look who posted ), yes it's supposed to be hard work, but it's also supposed to be safe. I fail to see how making equipment that is supposed to be safer makes kendo less "HARD". I'm not really into kendo for this pain thing.... if i was, i'd take up bondage and s&m and crap. you guys really are weird

[Alison2805]

geez, everyones getting upset.

I never said I was better because I had more posts than what-his-face, I just responded to him calling me "kid" because he'd been here longer than me.
Ive only seen a couple of kids do kendo in my club, and when they are in bogu they are put with adults. Yes they should get used to being hit, but it would be a much easier thing to do if the men was more cushioned.

And I would be very interested in reading any literature that studies whether being hit on the head for years can do damage to your brain. Im sure its not much, but logic indicates that it would have some effect, if only minor, particularly on children.

I think progress is a good thing. Yes, the men in that clip is ugly. But it may be a starting point for something down the track that may be fantastic. Who knows. Kendo is full of inovative changes.

For example: plastic tsubas, synthetic dohs, plastic dohs for kids, clarino kote palms, polyester hakamas, plastic chichigawa, bogu cleaning products, improvements on shinai and bogu bags (you can get ones like backpacks), online forums, sweat-wicking gi, machine stitching, etc. Kendo World has an advertisement on its homepage about men that have removable padding so you can wash that disgusting bit under your chin.

All this stuff is great!!! I hope people keep trying to improve things. I dont think these "kill kendo" at all.

[Kent Enfield]

Uh, when you quote someone and then try to respond in criticizm, please make sure you know what the hell you quoted and what they were talking about.You should take your own advice.

I believe you missed the point of my post.No, I understodd perfectly. You implied that by criticizing this helmet, that I was somehow opposed to all changes of any kind in kendo equipment. I then pointed out that all of the things you listed have a net gain. That is that they perform better than the older version (now pay attention here, it's going to get tricky) while maintaining the same appearance. But then you're the kid who painted his mengane.


I was going to try and respond about other things you have said but after seeing how many time you spammed this fourm with ignorant defenceWhat's that line from The Princess Bride? "The way you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means."

...couse companies need to check and get permission with you or anyone else before they make something inovative?No. But my question stands regardless of who hears it. According to Karaken, the stated motivation for developing this helmet is:

"This is a newly developed MEN to prevent any damage from strikes especially for young children and old men whose brains are susceptible to damage"That raises the obvious question, at least for those trained to think this way (e.g. engineers), of "Are people sustaining damage to their brains from practicing kendo?" So far, no one has given any evidence that they are. The most people have come up with is that it would be bad to damage children's brains. Well, duh. But if current men are doing the job, like they seem to have done for the last 70 to 100 years, children aren't getting brain damage. And if they aren't, what benefit does this new helmet offer that offsets it's horrible appearance? There are already men available that make receiving shomen painless from all but the worst of heavy hitters. I know, I have one.

You, sir, are an Idiot. There now get personal.
:eek:And you, boy, are a waste of flesh. *plonk*

[ace]

all i can say is who cares if you dont like it dont wear it if you dont like carbon shinia's dont use it simple problem simple solution,sometimes i think people on kwf just try to start fights and arguments for something to do,
and before people start having a go at alisons dojo(murdoch kendo club)which is my dojo as well you should get the facts and maybe even try training there once. because i would guess that once or twice you guys have probably hit some one to hard (if you say you havent your full of shit)it happens thats kendo so dont critize our club over it.

[streetcleaner]

Kendo is full of inovative changes.

For example: plastic tsubas, synthetic dohs, plastic dohs for kids, clarino kote palms, polyester hakamas, plastic chichigawa, bogu cleaning products, improvements on shinai and bogu bags (you can get ones like backpacks), online forums, sweat-wicking gi, machine stitching, etc.

innovating changes? everything you point is just BAD CHEAP SUBSTITUTE of good traditional items. all this thing make kendo more popular, but not better at all. i'd say make it weaker. thats why it meets opposition not much time ago in japan

[a.hong]

innovating changes? everything you point is just BAD CHEAP SUBSTITUTE of good traditional items.

To name a few improvements that technology has given us:
The owner of e-bogu has voiced his opinion on how he prefers synthetic do over bamboo. He says that bamboo has a high tendency to warp in extreme temperature changes and is prone to breakage, while synthetic retains a generally consistent shape with little chance of cracking. Also, I know of several people (some of which are on this forum) who swear by the micro-punch clarino palms on the Mine Kote sold by Chibabogu. Of course, they lack that lovely smell of smoked deer leather. Furthermore, backpack-style bogu bags (like the ones at bujin design) provide useful padding for your bogu during transportation, along with the comfort of backpack straps.

Are some things created through improvemnts in technology cheap substitutes? Possibly. Has technology enhanced the quality and reliability of many other products? Undoubtedly.

[Alison2805]

all i can say is who cares if you dont like it dont wear it if you dont like carbon shinia's dont use it simple problem simple solution,sometimes i think people on kwf just try to start fights and arguments for something to do,
and before people start having a go at alisons dojo(murdoch kendo club)which is my dojo as well you should get the facts and maybe even try training there once. because i would guess that once or twice you guys have probably hit some one to hard (if you say you havent your full of shit)it happens thats kendo so dont critize our club over it.

Hi Ace! Nothing seems to spice up peoples' working day like an argument over something pointless. :D

I enjoyed Jess's hens night, that stripper! Whooo! :silly:

[ahmed61086]

Nuki do from one knee had a little bit of popularity 10-12 years ago. I only saw it done once in shiai.

I am going to make it one of my lifetime goals to do it in a Shiai, and I wont be satified unless I get ippon.

Watch out for Nuki Do!

[shred_lord]

alisons dojo(murdoch kendo club)which is my dojo as well you should get the facts and maybe even try training there once.I apologise.
because i would guess that once or twice you guys have probably hit some one to hard (if you say you havent your full of shit)Sure, when my adrenaline is up. Never a kid though. No, honestly. I have never made a kid cry, ever. And no, I'm not full of shit.
so dont critize our club over it.I didn't for a second believe that you whole club is like this. I would figure that maybe one person (probably a beginner) gets carried away sometimes.

Bah, who am I kidding! I now officially the Bad Guy in this thread.:(

Oh well, let me state, I am not against improving protection, in fact my biggest criticism of bogu is that the sort of set that beginners buy (i.e inexpensive sets) do not protect enough, making the beginner introduction to fencing in bogu an introduction to pain untill various pads are bought to compensate.

I doubt, however that these new men will be inexpensive.

Besides, how much harder can you cut a child before you risk neck injury?!?!

But all that is by the by. I am not against these men. I just think they look stupid.


you just dont understand. instead of working on correct cuts they invent progress - carbon shinais, fiberglass mengane, now those shitty mens... kendo should not be easy, safer and funny. there's all right with kendo as it is.This slipped passed me earlier.

Two questions.

1. Wasn't the Mujin Men and Cabon shinai invented by the Hasagawa corp of JAPAN

2. I what way does the Mujin Men affect correct cutting?!?! :confused:

The Mujin Men is Good example of progress. It provides benefits (clearer vision, access to face without removing men, protection from splinters and the removable liner looks quite nifty) while still looking as normal as possible (once you discount the fact that half the mengane has dissapeared) and it does not affect anyone but the wearer (by that standard, it's better than the carbon shinai, which can fekkin hurt on missed shots!)

[shred_lord]

Even better, look at this http://www.hasegawakagaku.co.jp/mujun.html

Though it does nullify the clearer vision benefit.

[streetcleaner]

1. Wasn't the Mujin Men and Cabon shinai invented by the Hasagawa corp of JAPAN
2. I what way does the Mujin Men affect correct cutting!)

1. so what? they are made for lazy forigners. don't you know both of them have a heavy pressure in japan?
2. no monomi = no correct head position = no correct posture = no correct cuts = no kendo = we have stupid freefighting with bamboo sticks!. now you see?

[Usagi San]

What the hell are you talking about? Alison2805 talks about bogu bags one can use as a backpack and bogu cleaning products and such, you say:


innovating changes? everything you point is just BAD CHEAP SUBSTITUTE of good traditional items. all this thing make kendo more popular, but not better at all. i'd say make it weaker.

What world do you live in? No ofense, but... do you have any kind of reading/understanding problem? Please, I dare you, what's the meaning of this: "all this thing make kendo more popular, but not better at all. i'd say make it weaker".

Or are you just talking because you don't have nothing better to do?

BTW Your profile doesn't tell much about you. The way you talk I'm starting to believe you don't even do kendo at all, do you?

[Usagi San]

1. so what? they are made for lazy forigners. don't you know both of them have a heavy pressure in japan?
2. no monomi = no correct head position = no correct posture = no correct cuts = no kendo = we have stupid freefighting with bamboo sticks!. now you see?

Ahahahahaahahahaahahahaahahahaahahahaahahahaahahah aahahahaahahaha.

[Paburo]

korea is the second largest kendo population in the world. it's only natural they come with these gadjets that might improve safety and comfort. so, ¿hasegawa and japanese gadjets are cool but koreans are evil and conspicuous? that's a tad discriminatory imho. at least, we should give it a shot to these men... for i personally couldnt really tell if theyre good or bad unless i hit it, put it on, and try it for a while... as i have done with carbon shinai and that fishbowl mujin men. i dislike both btw, but i can say it now that i have tested them.

on the other hand, streetcleaner is sort of blind on kendo evolution. i would like to see him training in the waterfalls with a yoroi and liveblade and dueling his old grandmaster shinken shoubu.

dude, wake up. even hachidan wear fibreglass dou and use carbon shinai sometimes. not to mention summer keikogi and reinforced titanium men. kendo will evolute no matter what. thru the years equipment will continue on having minor changes that will make it more resistant, cheap, afordable, and safe for everyone. it's about time you accept it and stop whining so much.

[shred_lord]

1. so what?So stop talking like Koreans responsible for "killing kendo"
they are made for lazy forigners.How is the Mujin for lazy people :confused: and the carbon shinai? Well, as much as I dislike the things, even an 8th dan is likely to go through enough bamboo shinai during the lifespan of carbon, to make the carbon cheaper in the long run.
don't you know both of them have a heavy pressure in japan?Eh? What, do the Japanese store them in pressure capsules or something!
2. no monomiRight
= no correct head positionHmm
= no correct postureRight
= no correct cutsHmm
= no kendoRight
= we have stupid freefighting with bamboo sticks!. now you see?Hmm

You see, your problem is you think that having a monome will force you have correct head position. Thing is. I've see loads of people with a monome and hold there head in all sorts of weird ways.

[SmellsLikeBogu]

I dont know if I should risk popping my head up here, with all the heat.

my 2 cents:

pro:
-better protection: great
-easier to put on: luxery (just like DO buttons!)

con:
-you look like a playmobile character
-authentic feeling is gone
And for my Biggest con: consider this. if you wont feel anymore when people are hitting to hard, you will be less inclined to talk to them about them, and correct their strike.

Getting hit hard in the head is painfull. I know. I have been there many times!
but the fact that a hit hurts is not due to your men, but to due to your opponent. He is doing his kendo wrong, and its your responsibility to point that out to him, so he knows he has to correct his strike.

now youve got a big rubber ball over your head, really comfy, snug as a bug in a rug! your opponent is really bashing you, but you're like "pfeh, I dont even feel it! this is great!" thus letting your partner grow his bad habbits even stronger.


so, in short, my oppinion is that this type of ultra-protecting men may be nice and comfy, but will lead to inpropper kendo. it would turn kendo into a hard hitting baseball-waza galore. (IMO)

but, as I am young, I could be wrong

[shred_lord]

con:
-you look like a playmobile character
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha :D

Just Fantastic.

[SmellsLikeBogu]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha :D

Just Fantastic.

that was the first thing that came into my head "wow kendo playmobile!"

and when I think about playmobile its usually bad, just like when winXP came out

[ReKru]

You see, your problem is you think that having a monome will force you have correct head position. Thing is. I've see loads of people with a monome and hold there head in all sorts of weird ways.

I think the problem is, that currently you have to invest a lot of money into getting a very protective set of bogu that 'helps' you kendo and doesn't hinder it.
The correct placement of the mengane to get the ideal head position seems to be an art in itself. Maybe the strange head positions you see come from a slightly misplaced mengane that forces it's wearer to strange angles to properly see trough the staves.
It seems very hard to get correctly done using 'old' materials and designs together with modern mass-production requirements.

Especially bogu for children seems often of lesser quality in material to keep the cost down, as well as hard to size properly (they grow so fast, something that's too large in spring might fit them well in summer and be too small in winter already - how do you cope with that if it's not a 10$ shirt but a 250-1500$ bogu?) to provide the protection that custom made high quality adult stuff provides.

[SmellsLikeBogu]

how do you cope with that if it's not a 10$ shirt but a 250-1500$ bogu?) to provide the protection that custom made high quality adult stuff provides.

wrap em in rubber! :p

[streetcleaner]

So stop talking like Koreans responsible for "killing kendo"
i mention koreans one time. so i'm not talking about them


Right
you know, i can see what right and what not without the help of shodan

[Usagi San]

you know, i can see what right and what not without the help of shodan

There you go!

You made the first (?)... ok, you made another REALLY STUPID step.

Come on, go on, now tell him your grade and for how long you've been training. Don't be shy. Show him how good you are. Come on.

[shred_lord]

I think the problem is, that currently you have to invest a lot of money into getting a very protective set of bogu that 'helps' you kendo and doesn't hinder it.
The correct placement of the mengane to get the ideal head position seems to be an art in itself. Maybe the strange head positions you see come from a slightly misplaced mengane that forces it's wearer to strange angles to properly see trough the staves.
It seems very hard to get correctly done using 'old' materials and designs together with modern mass-production requirements.

Especially bogu for children seems often of lesser quality in material to keep the cost down, as well as hard to size properly (they grow so fast, something that's too large in spring might fit them well in summer and be too small in winter already - how do you cope with that if it's not a 10$ shirt but a 250-1500$ bogu?) to provide the protection that custom made high quality adult stuff provides.Really good points.

I thing it would be good to research lost cost inliners for men that will alow kids to wear fairly large men and over time remove layers until the men fits. This will afford children extra protection to start with, which will lessen as they get older, gradually working their way down to a normal level of protection.

At the same time, a child need only have one set of bogu for their entire childhood until they're ready for their first adult set.

The more I think about it the more I think this is a better solution the a supermen. Because it addresses the cost issue.

[streetcleaner]

You made the first (?)... ok, you made another REALLY STUPID step
please please please, keep you appraisals with yourself. with all your's "stupid", "idiotic", "unmature" in nearly every post it looks like i'm the only well-mannered person in this thread

[Usagi San]

Sorry? Quote me please. Where did I say "idiotic" or "unmature" ?

If you only had the BALLS to answer the questions.

And BTW your statment " I can see what right and what not without the help of shodan" was REALLY STUPID.

[streetcleaner]

If you only had the BALLS to answer the questions
balls? what question you're interested?

[Usagi San]

OK, I'll repeat myself:

"What the hell are you talking about? Alison2805 talks about bogu bags one can use as a backpack and bogu cleaning products and such, you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by streetcleaner
innovating changes? everything you point is just BAD CHEAP SUBSTITUTE of good traditional items. all this thing make kendo more popular, but not better at all. i'd say make it weaker.

What's the meaning of this: "all this thing make kendo more popular, but not better at all. i'd say make it weaker".

There. The question.

Oh and I'm waiting for the "idiotic" and "unmature" quote.

[Usagi San]

While we wait let's do a small opinion poll:
All those in favor that the stament bellow:

"I can see what right and what not without the help of shodan"

was REALLY STUPID, say "I do"

[streetcleaner]

"What the hell are you talking about? Alison2805 talks about bogu bags one can use as a backpack and bogu cleaning products
Alison2805 talks about "tsubas, synthetic dohs, plastic dohs for kids, clarino kote palms, polyester hakamas" first. and as i can reply to him this is not improvment, but acheap sabstitute. you don't agree? back to the backpak - i don't think this is improvement and more - i dont think this relates to kendo. i use tennis bag. bogu cleaning product? warm water is efficient


What's the meaning of this: "all this thing make kendo more popular, but not better at all. i'd say make it weaker"
by making kendo stuff cheaper manufacturers grab more people and has more money. but most of this people leave kendo after 1 or 2 years. people who train a lot not bother with all this eye-cathing things.


Oh and I'm waiting for the "idiotic" and "unmature" quote.
maybe it is not you. but someone who argued me. you stopped at "stupid"

[Usagi San]

Warm water?
By making kendo stuff cheaper manufacturers grab more people and has more money?
but most of this people leave kendo after 1 or 2 years?
people who train a lot not bother with all this eye-cathing things?

Oh my God. Yet another backyard samurai. Let me tell you this, and now you have a quote:

Your answer is "idiotic" and "unmature" and "stupid".

I'm out of here.

[Newbie]

Oh man, how'd this thread slip me by?

Mm.. bogu bags, backpack style. As someone with chronic backpain who suspects their pulled traps is in part due to the fact that they have to carry their bogu to work (40 min walk) and on public tranpsort, bugger tradition. I'll go with practicality if it means I can train more often cos I'm not injuring myself carrying my bogu around safely.

And I'd love to go with authenticity on kendo products. If I could afford it. Which I can't. So until I can I'll go with cheaper crap that at least means I can train.

Oh, and I Do.

Damn, I'm sure I promised someone a while ago I wouldn't pander to the trolls.

[shred_lord]

Alison2805 talks about "tsubas, synthetic dohs, plastic dohs for kids, clarino kote palms, polyester hakamas" first. and as i can reply to him this is not improvment, but acheap sabstitute. you don't agree? back to the backpak - i don't think this is improvement and more - i dont think this relates to kendo. i use tennis bag. bogu cleaning product? warm water is efficient


by making kendo stuff cheaper manufacturers grab more people and has more money. but most of this people leave kendo after 1 or 2 years. people who train a lot not bother with all this eye-cathing things.
I'm fairly certain the well over half of kendoka worldwide use synthetic tsuba and probable the same amount for synthetic do. The new Clarino palms are in some repects better than dear leather.

" by making kendo stuff cheaper manufacturers grab more people"

I take it, if you were in charge that you'd stop all this rubbish with cheap substitution. Jeeze, it makes people think just anyone can start! :cyclops:

Answer me one question. Is your bogu handmade?

[Landorph]

man those thing looks hard... i'm sure it protects the head well..

but u can see that they make the shinai slide off even with those people's perfect men cut.


also.. that thing looks hard.. hence i assume it will be a shinai breaker... expect to replace your splintered shinai more often.

[SmellsLikeBogu]

man those thing looks hard... i'm sure it protects the head well..

but u can see that they make the shinai slide off even with those people's perfect men cut.


also.. that thing looks hard.. hence i assume it will be a shinai breaker... expect to replace your splintered shinai more often.

one would be using carbon :)

[Robobob]

I am afraid I´ll get bashed, once I enter this very high-emotional discussion, but:

by making kendo stuff cheaper manufacturers grab more people and has more money. but most of this people leave kendo after 1 or 2 years.
Now this would mean poor people are worse kendo-players or what?
The ones with money may spend it on high-quality kendo stuff, of course, it is their hobby. But the ones with less financial potential should definetely get any chance to do kendo as well!

[Fonsz]

I am afraid I´ll get bashed, once I enter this very high-emotional discussion, but:

Now this would mean poor people are worse kendo-players or what?
The ones with money may spend it on high-quality kendo stuff, of course, it is their hobby. But the ones with less financial potential should definetely get any chance to do kendo as well! Be careful with these dangerous democratic opinions! It's not done to mention the poor on this Rotary like community. Before you know it even women want to participate! God forbid. Let's keep it for ourselves, the ones with money and the RBSO bogu!:normal:;)

[T.Lee]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/2/29/300px-Dark_Helmet_angry.jpg

my schwartz is bigger.

:bandit:

[Bennosuke]

A agree that there are things that need to be changed about the men, but its a work in progress.

Here's why I think more protection is better, there is always the possibility for accident. I've seen a sensei get a concussion because he was in keiko with someone. The person was a beginer, who got too tense. It was his first or second time in bogu, and he just messed up. It was a complete accident, and normally it never happens. I've also seen someone get hit too hard because he got in the way when there was no room and the person was trying to muscle through do. But if these men help provent damage during those accidents then its worthwhile.

I may not buy it if its expensive or not as good as it should be, but in concept there should be no problem with a more protective men, so long as it doesn't effect the way we practice kendo.

[MAZ77]

Which part do you feel is this way?
And why?

All of it. You have jst generalized the #2 country in kendo. If there kendo were not genuine, they would not be awarded points by the 'evil' imposers. My suggestion, 'dont believe everything you read', go visit a kumdo dojo and formalize opinions.

[Frame]

to try and talk some sense into you guys, streetcleaner is just and excellent troll. Walk away from your computer and make a cup of tea

[PenPen]

You should take your own advice.

How so?


(now pay attention here, it's going to get tricky)


You implied that by criticizing this helmet, that I was somehow opposed to all changes of any kind in kendo equipment.

Hey, good job, I guess 2nd times the charm for ya. I knew that post would help you get it.


I then pointed out that all of the things you listed have a net gain. That is that they perform better than the older version... (while maintaining the same appearance.

I don't remember saying anything about how this post was about things being improved upon while maintaining the same appearance. I think I need to help you one more time by giving you the same quote as before about WHY I even bothered to adress you ignorance in the first place





yeah why dont use the technology we have to create new useful stuff, dont be hard headed, well maybe thats why you dont need the new men
Because it's fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

"Newer" doesn't automatically equate with "better".

This still applies


So... I'm missing the part where you find need to defend your self about if it "looks good" or not and stuff about brain damage and... basically everything you said...



According to Karaken, the stated motivation for developing this helmet is:


"This is a newly developed MEN to prevent any damage from strikes especially for young children and old men whose brains are susceptible to damage"

You moron, I can care less what Karaken said; I was adressing you. Please let me know where I mentioned anything about why someone thinks this men was developed.


What's that line from The Princess Bride? "The way you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means."

Incase you actually need to know:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ignorant


*plonk*
Don't try and use that with * in an attempt to be clever.

Plonk. Would have been better



You are one of the worst forum users I've ever read.

Plonk.

[Alison2805]

While we wait let's do a small opinion poll:
All those in favor that the stament bellow:

"I can see what right and what not without the help of shodan"

was REALLY STUPID, say "I do"


I do! :D Couldnt resist. But I think the comment that he is the best mannered person in this thread was even more stupid.

So streetcleaner, you still havent said where you are from (ie country, dojo) and what grade you are.

[PenPen]

My edit didnt work...

For for the sake of preventing you from speaking, I was going to Omit this part of my quote


and stuff about brain damage and... basically everything you said...


b/c I guess you can try and argue that you had a reason to say:

You're right. Now what problem that I'm not aware of is this fixing? Where are all the brain-damaged people who started kendo as kids over the last 50 years? They must all be at some secret location, because I've not heard of any of them

But I'm still LOL'ing :silly:

[johnkichu]

to try and talk some sense into you guys, streetcleaner is just and excellent troll. Walk away from your computer and make a cup of tea

Hear hear!

He probably doesn't believe in drinking tea - why whimp out and brew tea, when you should chew on the leaves raw (couldn't resist).

[streetcleaner]

"Hasegawa has been a "controversial" company with its "innovations" in Kendo equipment. Some kenshi love them, others....not so much... I would be in the latter category.

While I give them kudos for trying to improve Kendo equipment, I do not like most of their products for various reasons.

When Hasegawa came out with their "carbon shinai", it was hailed as the biggest improvement in Kendo since the invention of the bamboo shinai in the late 1700s. Imagine that...an "unbreakable" shinai! What a godsend to those kenshi who broke a shinai every week!

The first time I held a carbon shinai, I immediately disliked it. I didn't like the "feel" of it. I didn't like the "balance" or the weight of it. Users of carbon shinai are out of luck in the matter of "choice".....all carbon shinai are made from the same "mold"......balance, weight, "feel" are all the same in every shinai. Heck, the handle wasn't even round (it is, in fact "octagonal")!

As more and more kenshi started using the carbon shinai, I noticed something very disturbing. It was VERY hard on bogu. I noticed small nicks and chips in my 'do' that were never there before. These nicks have turned into cracks and missing "chunks" in the lacquer. This is unrepairable damage. I have used my current set of bogu for well over 25 years. I have taken care of it religiously. It wasn't until the advent of the carbon shinai that the damage appeared. You have to remember that as a sensei, I am a "target" for students and am exposed to far more 'do' strikes than the average kenshi.

For me to replace my bogu today with a comparable quality set would cost me over $4000.00!

When the use of the carbon shinai became more widespread, that is when all the "trouble" started.
This is because of the difference between bamboo and carbon graphite. Bamboo is a member of the grass family. It is made up of organic fibers that run longitudinally. There are microscopic spaces between these fibers. When used in a shinai, these fibers "compress" when the shinai strikes something.....the 'men'....'kote'....'do'....an elbow....an armpit.... This fiber compression, along with the design of the shinai, absorbs some of the energy transferred to the target upon impact.

In the case of carbon graphite shinai "slats", this does not happen. There is very little, if any, compression. For all intents and purposes, the carbon slat is "solid". Add to this, "kenshi incompetence", lack of shinai "control" ('te-no-uchi'), poor execution of technique, etc. and the "unbreakable shinai" becomes a nightmare to Kendo bogu and Kendo sensei.

Carbon shinai are a "quick fix" to a common problem....hitting too hard, which leads to shinai breakage. Rather than learn correct 'te-no-uchi', shinai control, and proper execution of techniques, the novice kenshi (and 'yudansha' as well) will just spend the extra bucks to get the "unbreakable" Hasegawa. This does nothing to solve the basic underlying problem.

As far as the Hasegawa shinai being "unbreakable", this is not true. I have seen them break and it was not pretty. When a carbon shinai breaks, it literally "shatters". The result is needle-sharp "shards" that can easily pierce skin, flesh, eyes.... I know a kenshi who has "broken" TWO Hasegawa shinai! What does this say about his "shinai control"?

The carbon shinai does not like heat. When left in a car trunk on a hot day or standing by a heater, its "structure" changes, making it "brittle"......and DANGEROUS!

Although I hate the carbon shinai, I DO own one. It was given to me as a "good-bye gift" by a student who moved out of state. I used it a few times and just never liked it. I use it now as a "loaner" to students who are just learning how to swing and strike with a shinai. No way am I going to let them use a $100 bamboo shinai of mine and break it!

It is much better to learn how to correctly swing and strike with control, than to take the easy way out by buying a "gimmick". Typically, my bamboo shinai (with proper preparation and maintenance) will last for at least a year. The shinai I am currently using has seen practice and tournament use for over 2 years.

This leads me to the original subject of your inquiry. Sorry about the initial "side-track", but it is also germane.

I also consider the Hasegawa 'men' a "gimmick". The "picture window" of the Hasegawa men may afford you better visibility, but it also gives your opponent better visibility.......of your face! You may have a better, unobstructed view of your opponent and any "open targets", but your opponent can tell immediately what you're looking at.....if you are not "focused".....when you are "flinching" or blinking your eyes.....any lapse in concentration.....etc.

If you think this is "bunk", I can tell of a personal experience that will illustrate my point..... I have had the honor of practicing with Sensei Masahiro Miyazaki, All Japan Championship "legend", several times when he visited Los Angeles several years ago. The first time I practiced with him he kept "nailing" my men. One second he was standing there in front of me and the next I would feel the men strike and he was gone! It was like he was using a "transporter" and "beaming" himself around. I could not, for the life of me, figure out "how" he was doing it. I wasn't tired, breathing heavily, etc.

Then, a thought came to me. I said to myself, "No way! No one is THAT good!" My thought was that Miyazaki-sensei was watching my eyes and "keying off" them. I made myself consciously aware of my eyes. Sure enough, Miyazaki-sensei was "timing" my eye blinks! As my eyes began to close to blink, he would launch his attack. By the time my eyes closed and re-opened, he had struck my men and had followed through past me.

Anyway, back to the Hasegawa men..... The polycarbonate "window" will eventually become scratched and/or "foggy" through use (possibly cracked/broken...a definite danger) and need to be replaced. Look at the 'men gane' (men "grill") of any kenshi and you will see scratches, dents, and dings acquired through normal use. What do you think will happen to a piece of "plastic"? Plus, polycarbonate (like "bullet-proof" Lexan) has a limited lifespan and must be regularly replaced.....an added expense.

A "classic" men needs to be properly fitted to its wearer/owner. Not only does it have to fit the head, but it must fit your face properly. The 'mono mi' (the widest space between the "bars" of the men) must line up with your eyes. This is not the case with the Hasegawa men. There is no need to line anything up with this men. As long as you can see through the "window", that's all that matters. It's a good thing for Hasegawa.....less inventory to stock....."one size fits all"....

Many advocates of the "picture window men" will say, "Yeah, but with the Hasegawa men, the 'men gane' (men "bars"/"grill") doesn't "bug me" or get in the way of my vision." If your men is properly fitted and you are using correct 'metsuke' (point of observation) vision, the 'men gane' shouldn't even be noticeable to you.

Many "old school" sensei DO consider such things as the Hasegawa men "flashy". I find things such as obviously flashy/expensive bogu worn by beginners personally insulting. It shouts of "HEY! Look at ME! I'm COOL!" There are sensei, especially from Japan, who will go out of their way to put such a student in his/her "place". Kendo is not a "fashion show" or a place to "show off".

Kendo is about history, culture, philosophy, and tradition.....NOT just the physical aspect of "combat". These days, fewer and fewer sensei are teaching/passing this down to their students. As a result, the "art" of Kendo is being lost. If you are going to learn Kendo, you must learn ALL of Kendo.

I apologize for the long-winded response to your question, but some things need in-depth explanation.

Mizobe-sensei"

[streetcleaner]

please read above

[ReKru]

a comparable quality set would cost me over $4000.00!

a $100 bamboo shinai of mine


It shouts of "HEY! Look at ME! I'm COOL!"

Yea, right - you're the coolest.

[Alison2805]

:shocked: I just googled "Mizobe-sensei"..... explains a lot.

[ReKru]

I just googled "Mizobe-sensei"..... explains a lot.

Same text as there:
http://p208.ezboard.com/fwestsidekendofrm8.showMessage?topicID=44.topic&index=1

Doesn't explain if Streetcleaner san is Mitsobe sensei himself or just a loyal follower of his ideas.

And sensei or not - I still find accusing other people of seeking attention trough 'flashy' kendo equipment while not resisting the urge to show the price tags of your own stuff in public (a simple 'my good shinai' or 'my bamboo do' would get the point across as well) quite odd.

[kartoffelngeist]

I think streetcleaner made a very good and reasoned argument for why he doesn't like them. Whether you agree or not is a different matter, but it's probably unfair to call that trolling.

Even if it is cross-posted...

[ReKru]

I think streetcleaner made a very good and reasoned argument for why he doesn't like them. Whether you agree or not is a different matter, but it's probably unfair to call that trolling

I think the 'trolling' was directed at his former, less reasoned arguments.

It's still not clear though if he 'cross-posted' it or just copied one of his sensei's posts who's attitude he blindly wants to follow.

There's also a nice reply on that original threat:

Man Sensei,

You're like Mikey. You don't like anything!

Seriously I find that people new to kendo obsess a bit too much on equipment since it is easier to buy the latest and greatest bogu than to hone ones waza. Kendo is not dress-up, let's pretend time.

Hits the nail on the head imo. And sometimes it's not just people new to kendo. :D

[streetcleaner]

I think the 'trolling' was directed at his former, less reasoned arguments

oh really!?? lets look...


2. no monomi = no correct head position = no correct posture = no correct cuts = no kendo = we have stupid freefighting with bamboo sticks!. now you see?

just becouse you dont understand in short words i post you a looooong story by Mizobe-sensei. and when everyone looks that this wrote by sensei, not a "idiotic, stupid, unmature backyard samurai", all of you just shut up. am i right?

[ReKru]

no monomi = no kendo

just becouse you dont understand in short words i post you a looooong story by Mizobe-sensei. and when everyone looks that this wrote by sensei, not a "idiotic, stupid, unmature backyard samurai", all of you just shut up. am i right?

Ermmm.. what Mizobe-Sensei wrote about the Hasegawa Men does not revolve around it not being Kendo the way you 'summed it up'.
Because your summary sounds weird doesn't mean the long text does it to the same extent.

Except for what I already said: thinking other people wear expensive gear just to 'show off' while not being reluctant about the price-tags on your own stuff.
Should protective and/or expensive (and in adult bogu they go together to some extent) gear be a sensei-privilege, while all beginners need to go trough years of crappy equipment that promotes pain and injury?
Maybe in Japan (maybe not even there but only in "The last Samurai"), but for sure not 'over here'.

[bullet08]

just becouse you dont understand in short words i post you a looooong story by Mizobe-sensei. and when everyone looks that this wrote by sensei, not a "idiotic, stupid, unmature backyard samurai", all of you just shut up. am i right?

personally, i don't like the look of that new men, but since you put it that way..

i find mizobe-sensei's quote rather narrow minded and opinonated. then again, everyone's entitle to their own opinion. from what i understand, kendo is about being able to adapt to new situation and still keeping one's center. from his quote, he seems to base his opinion about his students on what equipment they have rather than their ability to learn kendo.

then again, that is my opinion. and am only shodan, so what do i know?

pete

[kartoffelngeist]

Ah, hadn't noticed it was a quote...

I'll withdraw my defense of streetcleaner then. :p

[Inner_Silence]

You're right. Now what problem that I'm not aware of is this fixing? Where are all the brain-damaged people who started kendo as kids over the last 50 years? They must all be at some secret location, because I've not heard of any of them. Has there been some study that shows that kids who do kendo have lower test scores?



i got a friend who had to do a brain scanner coz of his long headaches after practice.
thats the counterexample to your generalization. (im not gonna explain logic now, i hope u gt it)

[Inner_Silence]

You see, your problem is you think that having a monome will force you have correct head position. Thing is. I've see loads of people with a monome and hold there head in all sorts of weird ways.

and its up to you to have a good tecnique, your tecnique shouldnt depend on your gear, it should depend on you

[sainueng]

and its up to you to have a good tecnique, your tecnique shouldnt depend on your gear, it should depend on you

That is not true. Your gear WILL influence your technique. You can work on your technique until you overcome and compensate for the gear, but that would add to the time of bad technique. The most common example would be the quality and flexibility of your kote. Furthermore, your opponent's gear can also influence technique. As I've pointed out earlier in this thread, and others have also noticed, the top of the new men is shaped differently. The strikes in the demonstration are not landing and sticking as you would expect. Given the pedigree of the demonstrators, I'm more willing to put the blame on the shape of the men than the technique of the striker.

[Inner_Silence]

That is not true. Your gear WILL influence your technique. You can work on your technique until you overcome and compensate for the gear, but that would add to the time of bad technique. The most common example would be the quality and flexibility of your kote. Furthermore, your opponent's gear can also influence technique. As I've pointed out earlier in this thread, and others have also noticed, the top of the new men is shaped differently. The strikes in the demonstration are not landing and sticking as you would expect. Given the pedigree of the demonstrators, I'm more willing to put the blame on the shape of the men than the technique of the striker.
i know what you mean and its true. may be i shoudl explain it better. what i mean is that (i think) if u r a good kenshi, and if u have a good technique n stuff, it doesnt matter if u have a cheap bogu or a great one or if you have a hasegawa visor or a top shinai, of course that having better gear it helps, but if you are good youll be still getting the ippon with a 5 mm bogu or a hand stiched one. i think that if someone needs a expensive shinai or a hand made bogu to be a good kenshi... he should chec out his tecnique. of course gear helps but is not what the kenshi is made.

making a paralel with music, im a electric guitar player, and i have nice 12 years old jackson guitar, and it works fine to me, but with time i feel that i have to buy something better, its just in the little details, in the colour of the tone, in the warm sound of the wood, in the little harmonics on the strings... that u feel that u need another guitar, indeed this would be an improvement (and it would be a REALLY big expensive thing for something that noone besides you would notice) and of course a better gear would make me get a better sound and it would be easyer to play, but this wont make me a better guitar player. coz of all this years you already got a technique that is yours, your own feeling, your own way to play it, your own way to do those milimetrical things that you do to give a little different colour to the sound (that again noone but you notice it) and this wont change with a better guitar, you wont change your playng style or tecnique or feeling coz teese are things that are just yours. and with a better guitar. you just are able to play another things and get a different sound n stuff like that. but not changing your "blues".
i think that the same thing happens with kendo gear...

[sainueng]

Yes, a good kenshi should be able to work with the gear he has. I think we agree on this.

However, if you allow drastic changes to equipment, it is conceivable that an OPPONENT's armor can be made such that a good strike, as it is now taught and conceived, becomes unfeasible. That is something that should be avoided, imo. I am referring to my earlier post:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showpost.php?p=209195&postcount=84

[Alison2805]

(long text)....I apologize for the long-winded response to your question, but some things need in-depth explanation.

Mizobe-sensei"

so, are you a student of his? What grade are you? You still ignore these questions. Quoting Mizobe-sensei does not help to make you any less of a troll.

[ace]

ok off the subject a lilltle acusse my poor computer lingo skills but what exatly is a troll.
and streetcleaner not that it matter but what grade and how long have you been doing kendo.

[Kyu_Karashima]

For many, my 4th kyu opinion won't matter, but i'll still say my two cents.

Judo had (or maybe still have) a similar issue with their new uniforms, and the blue/whites colors for competition. Even here in Canada there was a big issue in the 50's/60's when the curved sticks appeared in hockey. Change in tradition always make a big fuss.

For the new mens, I think it's still experimental, and I know very well that prototypes can be very far from the finish product. It can look better in the end. As it is now, I'll won't buy it. It may be a better protection, but I don't like it. It is my opinion. If someone buys it, I'll respect his choice.

But there are reasons why some progress are good. I grew up in a modest family, I just finished my studies, I'm starting my career, so I'm on a tight budjet. So anything to reduce the price of the "hardware" is OK with me. As I see it, a democratization of Kendo, by allowing more people to do Kendo, will raise the level of Kendo. If the low grade shinai was 150$ and the cheapest 8mm bogu 3000$, I don't think I'll have done any Kendo at all!

Carbon shinai : they can be good for some people, but I don't like them. It's a personnal opinion. And I just like the smell of bamboo.

Hasegawa men : Mizobe-sensei (I mean the real one), have a point. But the vizor have an other use : to prevent splinters to go through the grill and go into your eyes. That's also why e-bogu have this : http://www.e-bogu.com/Eye_Protector_p/hir-pro--eyeprotect--.htm

If you see in some of my earlier posts, that even if i'm not allowed to wear bogu yet, I already bought my bogu. I got e-bogu's 6mm bogu. My doh is in plastic, my kote palms are not deer skin, by bogu bag is not a classic one, and my tsubas for my bokken and shinai are also in plastic.

I know that buying my bogu that early was a mistake, and that could affect my kendo. For me in kendo everything start and end with rei; for me Kendo is all about respect. I know that buying my bogu that early may have being arrogant, presumptuous or disrespectful. But does my "hardware" choices also makes me arrogant, presumptuous or disrespectful?

Does ken in Ki-Ken-Tai no Icchi (Mind, Sword, and Body as One) means hardware or technique? Or having non-traditionnal hardware weakens the mind? Do wearing that new men show that you have a weak body?

I don't think that the "hardware" makes the kendoka. "Hardware" is merely a tool. Even a top of the line 100$ shinai won't help your tenouchi.

Progress for the sake of progress is not always good. Remember the "new" Coke?

My intention was to tell my opinion, not to offend anybody. If I did, I truly apologize.

[Alison2805]

A troll is someone on the forum who is here to stir shit and upset people, doesnt say anything usefull, and usually doesnt do kendo at all. Sometimes they can be funny, but this guy is just annoying.

[Robobob]

I can´t believe he quoted a senseis words without marking them as a quote. And they dont underline his point of view at all, because he said, the new equipment is cheaper (i.e. plastic tsubas) and this makes to many people come to kendo that aren´t sincere or something in that direction. Well, the carbon shinais are much more expensive so this has nothing to do with what he said. But why the hell do I even bother to point this out?

Concerning that other line of discussion: in german there´s a saying which translates something like this: " If the farmer cannot swim, it is the fault of his bathing suite"...
But then, of course, a men where the men-gane is not where it´s supposed to be can destroy your technique, I agree.

[ReKru]

Are you THAT robobob-san? :D
Welcome to the dark side. ;)

Maybe we need to present baba-sensei with 'true traditional kendo values' that we learned here on the board, since his girly Hasegawa cotton 'underwear' has the risk of girlyfying our entire Dojo!
Soon we'll all wear white gloves under the Kote and pink 'Hello Kitty' plastic&rubber bogu! :P

[Robobob]

Hi Re,
yes, it´s me. Your right. I´ve seen the stuff already on younger Dojo-mates. It´s infectious!

[streetcleaner]

I can´t believe he quoted a senseis words without marking them as a quote
huh? quotetion marks and sign "Mizobe-sensei" isn't enough to mark quote as a quate?


the carbon shinais are much more expensive so this has nothing to do with what he said.
isn't people buy carbon shinai when they tired with the broken bamboo shinais and want to save money bying unbreakable shinai?

[ReKru]

huh? quotetion marks and sign "Mizobe-sensei" isn't enough to mark quote as a quate?

From the reactions to your post you should see that it's a bit hard to see as a quote. Using the Quote tags that the forum offers and clearly stating that you're quoting Mitsobe sensein instead of just signing it is considered 'proper Forum reiho'.


isn't people buy carbon shinai when they tired with the broken bamboo shinais and want to save money bying unbreakable shinai?

Long term savings might be one aspect. Your opponent's security - and while Carbon shinai might 'explode' in small and dangerous pieces, it's not as likely as bamboo breaking and when bamboo shinai break vertically and not along the slats, you get very pointy, very dangerous results that can outright kill a person (see Dr. Goto Sensei) - is another consideration.
And for most people in the west, having one reliable shinai for practice is priceless. Even if you have 2-3 shinai with you, they might break faster than you can replace them if you're unlucky.
Getting a replacement one can take some weeks and in that time you're out of shinai.

Their low maintenance effort makes them also very attractive as 'backup shinai', since even if you could afford to keep a good stack of bamboo shinai around, you can't just throw them in a corner and hope they're still good when you get to use them.
Maybe that's 'lazyness' and not traditional, but on the other hand I'm not Samurai, living my life as professional soldier, seeking perfection in every aspect of samurai lifestyle. I'm a hobbyist kendo practitioner that seeks perfection in that little part of a martial art that I can fit into the rest of my life.

Another proverb is "Convenience is not invented so people have nothing to do, but because they have more important things to do".

[shred_lord]

Streetcleaner, you've still not answered my question.

Do you use Machine stitched or Handstitched Bogu?

[streetcleaner]

Do you use Machine stitched or Handstitched Bogu?
should i? korean machine stiched

[shred_lord]

Then you are guilty of the using the same kind of stuff you say is killing Kendo.

Machinestitched Bogu is not only a technological step forward, it has probably done more the make kendo affordable to the masses that any other equipment based development.

At one end of the range it is a cheap substitute for traditional handmade bogu.

At the other end, it's a tecnological step forward allowing new ideas in bogu manufacture to be explored and is STILL cheaper that most handmade bogu.

You are, by you own standards, killing Kendo with your cheap and nasty fake bogu.

Go spend a couple of thousand pounds and get something proper.

[streetcleaner]

Then you are guilty of the using the same kind of stuff you say is killing Kendo.
dont we talk about "inovations"? as i remember we started with ugly fake men, then fiberglass mengane, then carbon shinai. whats wrong with machine stiched bogu? despite of the fact it is _machine_ stiched, its standart bogu. and yes, to support traditional bogu craftmanship i buy handstiched bogu as soon as i can. but today my bogu is fine

[shred_lord]

dont we talk about "inovations"? as i remember we started with ugly fake men, then fiberglass mengane, then carbon shinai. whats wrong with machine stiched bogu? despite of the fact it is _machine_ stiched, its standart bogu. and yes, to support traditional bogu craftmanship i buy handstiched bogu as soon as i can. but today my bogu is fineYou've already stated your opinion on the this type of equipment.


Kendo is full of inovative changes.

For example: plastic tsubas, synthetic dohs, plastic dohs for kids, clarino kote palms, polyester hakamas, plastic chichigawa, bogu cleaning products, improvements on shinai and bogu bags (you can get ones like backpacks), online forums, sweat-wicking gi, machine stitching, etc. innovating changes? everything you point is just BAD CHEAP SUBSTITUTE of good traditional items. all this thing make kendo more popular, but not better at all. i'd say make it weaker. thats why it meets opposition not much time ago in japanNow, as The Great I AM, Gibbo himself would proclaim.....


Suck my plums!

[hyuna]

This is a strange argument.

I wonder if there was a similar one when shinai and bogu were first invented.

I think it is important to think about the notion of "tradition" but one should also consider why it is important to follow tradition. Is it for it's own sake, or is following "tradition" meant to instill some other value?

In the short time I've been practicing kendo (some 13-15 years now, depending on how you count), I've seen numerous changes to the structure and method of practice. Many of them obviously modern (such as adding stretching to the warm-up, and getting actual explanations of how to perform waza -- in english, yet). I don't really see how changing our equipment in some way is different from that.

[Inner_Silence]

personally i really feel that the standard bogu really needs modifications, if it would be for me, the kendo bogu would be different as it is now. basically i would put a head protector for the men, some modification for kote and of course i would really change the way that the tsuki protection works.. coz if u miss a couple of centimeters... really it not works at all... the objective of this is not to chenge kendo or stuff like that, the objective is making unnecesary the modifications that we all do to our bogu like extra men pad or a wrist protector...

i think kendo is about tradition and all that stuff, but i dont think thar using some kind of bogu or shinai or whatever means traditinon.
i think that kendo is something that u have inside, i think kendo is the very moment when u know that u have the ippon and somehow for a fraction of second it feels like time has stopped. i think that kendo is that state of mind, that emptyness that u get when u are in a shiai...

i really dont think that kendo is not the shinai that u are using or the colour of your keikogi or how painfull the practice is... i really think that kendo is in the shiai, so i dont mind if im having a normal men or a weird one, the thing that matter is that in combat im still kickin streetcleaner's ass using carbon shinai or bambu, or hand made bogu or a football helmet or whatever...

[Inner_Silence]

...hypotetically speaking...

[Robobob]

Of course your are rigth with that. Everything around is just material needed to help us get there. We need bogu because we couldn´t do kendo without it (at least only, say, once...), not because the bogu is kendo. But I still feel that, just like our behaviour around the actual shiai/keiko (meaning reiho), the material we use can influence our attitude, our feeling about it. It is certainly not the thing itself but it might help or counterwise distract us. Thats why the maintenance of equipment is part of the reiho. And thats why for me the equipment has some importance too. And by that I do not mean that it should look cool or that it should be expensive to make sure we´re sincere, but that it should be treated with care and, if possible, made with care and that it should be made and look in a way that is modest and timeless.
So therefore, I´m not against improvement, I´m not against cheaper stuff, but I am against spaceballs-design.