Jodo Reading

[Newbie]

There are upteen books on kendo and iaido on techniques, history, etc. Anything for jodo? I'm really after some jodo reading material. Other than the ZNKR Jodo Manual, that is (that's on my wish list already).

Oh, and has anyone read it? Any good?

Watched a docco today on martial arts. When it got to kendo it said "kendo uses bamboo or wooden swords" and then showed jodo kata. Boy was I annoyed. The rest of the docco was pretty good though.

[Andy_Watson]

Hi Newbie

The ZNKR Jodo Manual is a rivetting read but then I did help translate it. If you can stay awake while reading it then you really should get out more.

Other than that, Kaminoda sensei's jodo nyumon is a brilliant book for learning the kata by pictures as well as improving your Japanese reading if you are into that sort of thing.

Who is your jodo teacher in Oz by the way? Not Loi Lee?

Andy

[Aden]

At a quick estimate Loi Lee is about 2,100 km away from Newbie.... over 3,000 from me. That is a lady with a sharp sense of humour.

There are few available books of any use in English. I like the out of print book by Krieger sensei (there is a scanned version online at http://www.ecoledubudo.com/krieger/index.htm the interface is a bit cumbersome but since the actual book has been unavailable for several years possibly the most economical way to read it), there is of course Yoeno and Hiroi's bilingual illustrated seitei manual which is new and shiny and can be bought online - enough detail to be very helpful for beginners....

hmm can't really think of anything else very helpful. Jodo is much less well documented than iaido or kendo - in the last decade I have only gathered about 5 publications compared to a couple of shelves on sword thingies. The good ones in Japanese cost and arm and a leg.

Aden

[Andy_Watson]

Aden

At a quick estimate Loi Lee is about 2,100 km away from Newbie.... over 3,000 from me.

So frickin' what?

Only joking:tongue:

[Aden]

Actually, Newbie will possibly have the opportunity to train with Loi Lee next January at the Australian (Iaido and) Jodo nationals in Hobart (plug plug - one week of visiting sensei instruction)..... she came to Wollongong for this years anyway.

Aden
(always looking for the chance to discretely mention events)

[Newbie]

I'm not really after something instructional (that's what sempai and sensei are for!) but something more informative, like history and so forth. In English. I'm outta luck, aren't I? But instructional stuff good too and generally interesting. Thanks for your help :)

Kristian Zirnsak's my sempai. There's only three of us in Adelaide that do seitei jo. Makes me sad. On the other hand, all training is one on one or one on two! Trained in his backyard at an ungodly hour last Saturday. Does that make me a backyard samurai? It was all right till his cat wrapped herself around my leg mid-stride during tandoku. Damn cat.

Andy, I'll take you at your word. I have absolutely no reason to think your opinion biaised ;)

Aden, I booked my leave two months ago. I'm the last person you need to plug the nationals to! You know it's 92 days away now?

:D

When I have the internet back on my computer, rather than my housemate's I'll download that other book.

[Andy_Watson]

Tee hee.

Posting serious now, the ZNKR jo manual is a bit of a must-have if you are studying seitei jodo more on the basis that seitei has the right to change (as well as the tendency) and so any other historical manuals on manual, while interesting and insightful, may well contain obselete techniques.

I can think of a couple already and am glad that seitei has reverted back to the koryu style e.g. the end of Seigan and Ran Ai, to strike with the end of the jo now rather than the flat as used to be the case.

Say hello to Loi from me.

Best regards

PS that above statement should guarantee my commission from the ZNKR shouldn't it?

[Ynambu]

has reverted back to the Koryu style e.g. the end of Seigan
For clarification Seigan has not reverted *all* the way back to the Koryu version. As you know the Koryu version is very different and extremely dangerous (which is why after two month of trial and several crack heads Shimizu Sensei rethought the ending)

[Newbie]

Err.. when I said history, I meant exactly that. The history of this beautiful weapon, out of interest. Heh, more than the dubious semi-fiction of what I can get out of the book Musashi ;)

[Ynambu]

For more technical reading than history please try our website www.shindomusoryu.com

[Andy_Watson]

Nambu san

I stand corrected, you are absolutely right. Ran Ai has however now gained more clarity at it's conclusion.

Regards

[Ynambu]

Ran Ai has however now gained more clarity at it's conclusion.
I am not sure of your meaning. Could you expand on that and tell me how it has been changed. Thank you.

[Aden]

Newbie

Yet another bit of background comment on Jo and its endless range of subgroups each of whom does things a bit differently.....

I refer our beginners looking for online references to www.shindomusoryu.com as it is an excellent reference in particular for terminology, lists of kata, relevant kanji amongst other things. I also really like the short bit on jo on http://www.kampaibudokai.org/.

However as far as I know the variety of SMR on www.shindomusoryu.com is not one that is active in Australia so I also tell our beginners that some things on it like gradings and level of achievement and stylistically some of the seitei kata are not as we do them (it is to be expected the koryu versions will differ from group to group) so we have to be a little careful in using it.

An example is Tsuki Zue (aka kata one of the seitei curriculum) in seitei here we cut down to the horizontal with a big straight kihon kendo style men cut that does not quite get up to full jodan as it passes the head from hasso (in Andy's ZNKR book it says "executing a Men cut as if cutting straight down to the belly button") though our beginners are sometimes taught a jerky 1-2-3 version stop, raise to jodan, cut forward to ensure they do a big enough cut raising the hands from hasso in an appropriate egg like path when they get to doing it in one motion. The web site under seitei for Tsuki Zue says "stop the cut at neck height after transitioning through jodan" which is a bit different.

Regards
Aden
Opinionated SMR beginner doomed to never learn chudan.

[Newbie]

An example is Tsuki Zue snip

Yeah, I noticed bits and pieces like that. It's partly why I'm not so fussed on 'technical reading'. Getting a copy of the ZNKR Manual will fill that role quite nicely. Other than that, what could be more comprehensive than my own notes that I make after training with sensei/sempai, stressing elements that I personally need to work on? It's when you get told different things about the same action that it becomes confusing.

The other reason I'm more looking for background reading, history and so forth rather than technical is I don't want to even consider, let alone read about in a technical sense, any koryu. Please don't flame me. Thing is though, I'm doing kendo, seitei jodo, seitei iaido. For one thing, finding enough time for these three is hard enough without adding koryu on top. The other one is confusion. I'm already coming across little bits that don't match up. In jodo my 'kendo feet' are a problem (feet flat on the floor? What madness is this??). Don't hold your shinai like a bokken. My iaido/jodo sempai wouldn't even start teaching me iaido until he thought my kendo basics were okay enough that there wouldn't be too much confusion between the two. I mean, they compliment each other beautifully but the differences are still there and I think, for a beginner in all three, I'm doing okay with that. Add koryu though and it would end up horribly confusing. So I'm just going to stick with seitei for a good, long while yet until I get the feel for things, better control over my weapons and an understanding of what I'm doing. I'll probably look at koryu when/if I get to nidan/sandan kinda level.

I mean, I still find koryu really interesting and bits and pieces of information useful ("why do we do that? it doesn't seem to make sense?" "well, in the koryu it was taken from, it does this/is followed up by that" "oh, now I get it".

Umm.. I'm kinda feverish so did any of that make any sense?

[Marcus_P]

It's when you get told different things about the same action that it becomes confusing.


I take no responsibility for confusing the hell out of you while you were over here.

Ok, I take all responsibility. But it's not my fault!!! (Cause, you know, contradiction and confusion seem to be my speciality...)

Btw... pffft... kendo feet... pffft! =P

[Newbie]

No, no! That's not what I mean, peanut. I was talking about this website being different to what I've been taught. Wait... you taking all responsibility for all the mistakes I make due to confusion? Hmm.. convenient... I get confused a lot...

BTW, I finally finished those notes, even though it took me about two weeks.


How do you know it's not iai feet? eh? eh?

[Aden]

That confusion is a natural thing - quite apart from the 3 ZNKR arts having differences in footwork, cuts etc - since both seitei iai and seitei jo change / mutate fairly rapidly and we have a slightly different group of sensei in for our annual seminar each year all of the seniors give different takes on things depending on when and by whom they were last topped up as it were.

Just doing seitei is fine at this stage in your career - it is vey good at building basics (I admit to being predjudiced in favour of koryu for the long term).

Aden

[Newbie]

Marcus is referring to the twelve hours of training he gave to me in a three day period after I'd had two months of any training of any sort at all.

He is a patient, patient, patient man :D

He'd have to be. I felt like the robot jodoka!

[Andy_Watson]

(in Andy's ZNKR book it says "executing a Men cut as if cutting straight down to the belly button")

Err, I had better just clarify, I helped my teacher, Chris Mansfield, to translate it. It isn't my book and I think acknowledgements are given in the ZNKR book to Chris but as it is the official translation, it belongs wholly to the ZNKR.

I realise you weren't suggesting that it was really mine but I would hate a misunderstood ZNKR hit squad on my doorstep one day...

"Hey, you da wiseguy who go tellin' stories abat you big self making books or sommat?"

DDDRRRRRRR!!!! (the sound of a tommy gun being emptied into a surprised Andy)


"I coulda been a contender....."

[Newbie]

At the funeral...

Aden - how could you? You got him killed *weeps pitiously* Who am I kidding? It wasn't your slip of the tongue (not in a seven smutty samurai way, I must add), I just should never have started the thread in the first place! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

*sniffle*

Gone to a better place I'm sure. A place where hikiotoshi is easy and you can't swing a (perfectly live and happy purring) cat without hitting a Japanese Sensei who'd love nothing better than to go through kata with you.

[satsumaruma]

Also at the funeral...

Bad Italian accent; chomping on cigar, "He had it coming, Mr Big is sick and tired of coming second to him in every Iaido and Jodo championship. The guy just ain't human".

Cut to view of cemetary, mist hugging the hillside, several mourners slowly descend away to leave a lone headstone. The camera pans to show the epitaph. 'Capt. Scarlet - died this year for badly translating a Jodo manual'

The sound of Newbie softly weeping...........to fade.

[Andy_Watson]

But I AM Captain Scarlett so how can I be dead. Maybe it's a ploy to trick the nasty Mysteron Mike Mansfield.

[Newbie]

Maybe you have discovered the secrets of the Force and can project yourself from beyond!

[satsumaruma]

Maybe you have discovered the secrets of the Force and can project yourself from beyond!

Secrets of what force? The Royal Australian Air Force? The G-force? Ground Force? Spent force?

Surely not the Jedi 'force'. Captain Scarlet is not a Jedi - he is someone who wins lots of medals etc and I even think I owe him a beer. (in fact it is probably two seeing as he bought me a drink in Sweden - and we all know he ridiculously expensive alcohol is there:cool: )

[Spiv]

If you could post the links to these online publications it would be greatly appreciated.

[Newbie]

There all on the first page of the thread, buddy.

[Budo Angel]

>Chris Mansfield, to translate it. It isn't my book and I think acknowledgements are given in the ZNKR book to Chris
Quite. Read the book, see the vid (courtesy of YouTube thread)...buy the bag, get the t-shirt. Get whacked.

Seriously guys, buy Chris Mansfields translation of the official ZNKR book.

ploy to trick the nasty Mysteron Mike Mansfield.
would hate a misunderstood ZNKR hit squad on my doorstep one day...
Quite & the Mafia posee to no doubt "hit" you and if that isn't enough, Chris loves to be called Mike Mansfield *giggle" :evil:

Captain Scarlet is not a Jedi
You don't know that !!! Jedi wear many guises...ask Mike (I mean Chris) :D

Bad Italian accent
No no, us girlies want to hear breathy deep kiai & lots of force feeling !!! :rambo:

[Ynambu]

May I ask. When you write

buy Chris Mansfields translation of the official ZNKR book.

Do you literally mean he translated the book from the Japanese version into English or he edited the script of a Japanese who did the actually translation.

Without any disrespect I find it hard to believe a native speaker of English would write English in such a 'Japanese' constructive way.

[Andy_Watson]

Chris translated the book from Japanese to English with some help from myself and one of his Japanese students. The style of writing is all his.

I don't quite understand what you mean by 'Japanese' constructive way.

[Ynambu]

There are many examples where you can imagine how the sentence was in Japanese and it seems to have been simple transliterated as a Japanese non native speaker would have done

I **really* don't want to get into a long discussion about the work and I most certainly I am doing this with due respect to Mr. Mansfield. As an example

P.15

Kihon, or basics, is principles in exercising the jo etc'

Any way you read that sentence and the following paragraph you have to admit it's not correct.

Similarly

...each technique with paying attention to both correct posture etc etc.

The entire book is written is this style and honestly anybody who has lived in Japan for a reasonable length of time will immediately recognize it as having been translated by a non native (read Japanese) speaker of English.

Please don't repeat don't jump down my throat. Of course the book is helpful and I am happy to use it as a Seitei guide. Thanks

[herb mowery]

Hello;
here i have a friend with some very old jodo stuff from Tokyo in early fifty's and sixties check it out at robert gruzanski.com or e-mail him at robertg@robertg.com killer stuff!
herb

[herb mowery]

Hello;herb here again sorry i need to change web address it's www.robertg.com/masakiryu.htm that should get you there.

[Ynambu]

Hello;herb here again sorry i need to change web address it's www.robertg.com/masakiryu.htm that should get you there.
Thank you. I have all 22 DVDs. Very interesting.

[Andy_Watson]

Nambu san

That's okay, no harm done. :)

Actually it would be more accurate to say that Chris translated it and then the translation was handed over to the ZNKR for final touches. Therefore you may well have found some slightly weird sentences in there.

Mind you given Chris's 11 years in Japan working in a Japanese law firm for quite a period of that, I am never surprised that his English is a little odd when he comes back to us occasionally. Furthermore Chris tried to keep in some of the nuances which were written in the original version and don't translate too well. Oh well.


Regards

[herb mowery]

Nambu -san;
Hello it's Herb i very glad you have some of his dvd we are friends and meet at a hakko-ryu jujitsu clinic in akron Ohio at eight lights dojo his father helped introduce it here in Ohio ,anyway what one do kyou like best?do you know the lady whom taught jodo to karl geis sensei and helped bring tomiki aikido to usa she was amazing to say the least Karl Geis sensei also has here jodo dvd for sale i can't remember her name as soon as i do i will post it her dvd is amazing .

[herb mowery]

nambu-san;
The lady's name is Tsunako Miyaki 6th dan tomiki aikido 7th dan kodokan judo 7th dan jodo. and a personal friend of the late Donn Drager(i think i spell his last name incorrect. )

[Newbie]

http://www.ecoledubudo.com/krieger/index.htm

Ah! That's not in English!

[Newbie]

Oh wait. It does have English :)