Desire to win...

[Po5i]

When I am on shiai, I think I have a problem, I don't have much desire to win the battle, is it normal? I feel great when I do ji geiko, and I feel confident, but in shiai, is like I am slower than normal... could that be the reason why I can't win many shiai battles? and to lose against lower kyu-students than me... I don't feel bad about it, but I though that is not normal to lose always :S

Next saturday we will have the national tournamet.. and I really feel worried.

[ahmed61086]

Its all about motivation. Why would it be important for you to win? Some people want to win because of pride, for themselves and theyre Dojo. Others might try to win to prove something to themselves. I had this same problem as you, I won a few tournaments, and then lost that "fire" I had and had to find a good motivation, but now my motivation is to represent my Dojo in the best way that I can, and prove to myself that my training has been paying off.


BTW, not fighting your best looks bad on you and your Dojo, you should represent your Dojo by fighting your best. I know its hard when sometimes your like, "Oh man, another fight, when is this going to be over!". You just have to stick to it.

[nikozamo]

the desire to win its totally normal but the thing is dont leave that desire to consume you and just think in win win win... because at last can be the ruin your kendo performance, in all or in a big part of it.

[Pan-Chan]

When I am in shiai matches, if they are in a tournament and not just at the dojo, my nerves flare up and I don't do half as well as I usually would; I forget things that I've done thousands of times, and I start thinking too much.

I'm not really sure, but I could imagine that if you are nervous during your matches it might have an effect on your kendo and motivation to set whatever goal it is you are trying to accomplish.

[Paburo]

some years ago i lost the states tournament final (1-2) that i started winning 1-0. i lost to umm let's say mr.xyz.

afterwards in the changing room, i heard one of the old sensei say to his son: "did you see that? xyz won because he REALLY wanted to win, he fought til the end with that spirit."

so that's the impression i gave from the outside... that he had 'more desire' to win than me, and did in the end. my nanadan sensei reprimended me saying that he thought i was going to win and that my spirit went down to hell after 1-1.

i thought about that a whole year. most of my losses in shiai are due to lack of mental fighting spirit. desire to win. not physical.

so Po5i, if you really want to win you'll have to think about changing your frame of mind first. if you plan to lose from the start or if you are just ok with losing always, then you shouldn't sign up for tournaments at all! :D

[Cool Cat]

I found that when I was a kyu grade I had a real drive to win. However, I found that you soon need to change your attitude and form when you enter the dan ranks. At this time my drive when down a bit but I started using my head more and not just my adrenalin.

In shiai I find that if you always think of just winning then you can start fearing defeat and this can be a real problem. Fear of defeat can make you hesitate and become tense. This will only make your kendo slower.

My only advice would be to see shiai as a challenge and go into each match using the skills you have learnt. Don't think too much about your opponent and remember that the stength that you walk into the shiaijo is very important. Start positive and show your intent early.

Keep smiling....

[emitbrownne]

I am the same as Po5i. I dont have the drive to want to win in Shiai. In ji-geiko I compete against people but I'm really using the exercise as a way of self improvement and having fun.

In shiai the fun seems to be taken away and replaced by pressure. Pressure to impress, to win, to not let people down etc....

This has, for me, led to a less than pleasurable shiai experience.

All that said.. I am trying to attend shiai, but I'm doing it for me. For fun.:silly:
Not bothered if I lose. Just that I do it and have a laugh.

Maybe a competitive streak will appear one day, maybe it never will.
I'm doing kendo because I love doing kendo.


I'm not doing it to prove I'm the best at kendo. :happy:

[emitbrownne]

When I am on shiai, I think I have a problem, I don't have much desire to win the battle, is it normal?

To answer your question... I dont know if its normal or not.. but you are not alone.

[MikeW]

As most have said, it's a mental thing. Either wanting to win really bad, or wanting NOT to look bad, both can lead to problems. Nerves, pressure, etc etc can make shiai less than enjoyable for a lot of people. What I try to do is to focus solely on my kendo and not whether I win or lose. If I do good kendo, even if I lose, I will not dishonor my sensei and dojo. All I can hope to do is to do my best and part of that relies on staying relaxed, having an empty mind and letting what I have been taught come out when stepping onto the match floor. And as many have also said, you are certainly not alone in this matter, in fact I would hazard a guess that most if not all face it at one point or another. Some just are able to come to grips with it faster or easier than some.

[bullet08]

with not much of shiai experience, i can't really say what it's all about. but i know i lost last one really quick, and i'm sure i won't have much luck at next one. i'll do my best, but winning and losing isn't all that much of a concern to me. it's all about trying my best and let that determine where i'll end up at, losing the match most likely, but so what? that's why i have daytime job. now.. team match is something different. need to win that one at all cost. team match is something more than just going and having fun. it's all about dojo, and losing means not just losing a single match for myself, but it's about losing the match for the dojo. thank god i'm not top five in our dojo.. lol.

pete

[The great I AM]

When I am on shiai, I think I have a problem, I don't have much desire to win the battle, is it normal? I feel great when I do ji geiko, and I feel confident, but in shiai, is like I am slower than normal... could that be the reason why I can't win many shiai battles? and to lose against lower kyu-students than me... I don't feel bad about it, but I though that is not normal to lose always :S

Next saturday we will have the national tournamet.. and I really feel worried.One thing that people haven't mentioned at all, is that maybe shiai just isn't for you. Not everybody enjoys shiai or wants to do it, and if thats the case then there is no reason to do it. I have a friend in London City Club who is 4th dan, does nice looking kendo, is strong enough and is happy to go to keiko and practise 2 or 3 times a week, but just doesn't like doing shiai and isn't particularly motivated to do it, but will if asked. He'll never volunteer himself straight away because its just not his cup o cha.

Maybe its the same for you. Just take a minute and think why are you going to competitions? Is it because you really want to compete, or is it because somebody asked you to, or worse, because somebody told you to? If you don't want to do it then don't.

If thats not the case and you do want to be there, then as the others have said, its probably just a mental thing. Are you competitive in ohter aspects of your life, that are nothing to do with kendo? If so then you are maybe putting too much pressure on yourself and putting yourself off the whole thing as a result.

[Charlie]

Sounds like some of you have your problem nailed - you can identify what affects your ability to compete in shiai. Me, I always have desire to win, and my game usually goes to hell in other ways, such as being distracted, losing confidence in encho, or the like. (One of the other four poisons, in other words.)

By the way, I'd say compete even if you don't want to compete since competition is healthy, but keep it in perspective. Just my two ryo.

[tango]

Good thread.

Personally, I never care if I win or lose. Nerves are normal... for me, it will be a new type of nervousness since an upcoming tournament will be first in the 3.dan+ division. Then again, I think I've had keiko with most of the folks in that division already (over the years). We'll see. I fully expect to get paired with either two 6.dans or a 6.dan/7.dan in the round robin. No big deal.

Of course, I WANT to advance, if possible, because more than anything else, it's just a great opportunity to do kendo with people I normally don't get to work with. That's my motivation to win... win = more matches ... that's it for me.

[tamaki]

I read in a book they gave us here that a shiai is a battle of strong will.The person with the strongest will wins.I cant think of anything more correct for shiai time.
Apart from that,seeing from myself,when the opponent is senpai ,I have no fear of losing,I dont push myself mentally etc etc and I always think that if he/she wins ,well,thats what it was expected.But I do great in this situation and win sometimes.
But once,I was fighting with somebody,lets say "kohai" in terms of kendo and I lost because I always won her in the keiko and I felt too confident about myself in the shiai,and didnt pay attention at the shiai etc.So i learned never to be sure about anything.In a shiai its not the stronger/best who wins,there are so many factors that make the result.
Even if you lose,it makes your kendo stronger coz you try harder from the next day.One of my sensei said always that you have to lose ,in order to become really strong .
As for the shiai time,different things work for everybody.I am not a teacher to give advice to anyone,I just say from my experience that you should walk in the shiaijo really confident about yourself,feeling mad ,big kiai and no thinking about what the opponent might do.Also watch the breathing,if it gets upset you get weak.
wish you the best:happy: do it for the fun of it

[cesarekim]

Shiai is part of kendo like jigeiko. Some people like it, some don't. I'm personally indifferent to shiai. I HATE losing but I will not go out of my way to go to a tournament. I usually only participate at nationals and the tournament our dojo organizes. Otherwise, I will only go if someone needs a warm body for their team. I'm at the stage where I can usually get past the initial league part and then proceed to get wacked in the tournament (direct elimination) stage by the competitive players.

Not sure whether your problem is indifference or whether you're putting too much pressure on yourself as Gibbo and the other sempai have said. The only other thing I can think of is sheer inexperience. Do you practice shiai at all in your dojo and have you ever done one-on-one matches in other sports (not necessarily MA could be tennis)? If the issue is inexperience, you will improve if somebody takes the time to teach you the dynamics and you wish to learn. If it's a mental problem, you can still improve but you will need somebody significantly more senior to mentor you.

Take my advice for what it's worth. I've never even made it to the quarter finals stage of a kendo tournament :emb:....

HTH

[sainueng]

A lot of people have covered how to prepare and approach the shiai mentally, so I'll cover some physical aspects that may not have been covered yet.

You mentioned that you feel slower in shiai. Are you taking the time to warm up appropriately? I don't mean just stretching, but doing suburi and then practicing some strikes and receive strikes. It may take some time for you body and mind to get up to speed for kendo. I personally don't feel quite as alert until I'm hit in the head a couple of times. :D

[Frame]

just a quick thought, not sure if anyone else thinks like this but on the flipside to desire to win, maybe it's a fear of losing? In the short time I've been around i remember the first few shiai, I think that i would think "ohh i'm not really fussed" but i was really just saying this to myself to avoid the fear of losing.

Now that i've been thrown into quite a few shiai, i'm more used to it I suppose, so I've got over that maybe? Just go out and kill em

[johnkichu]

just a quick thought, not sure if anyone else thinks like this but on the flipside to desire to win, maybe it's a fear of losing?

No - I've lost so often, I am not afraid of losing!

[Moe-Swordsaint!]

Shiai ROCKS... Win or lose the drive is still there, i dunno what it is (maybe it's the urge to be better...) but its there =D!!

[Masahiro]

just a quick thought, not sure if anyone else thinks like this but on the flipside to desire to win, maybe it's a fear of losing?

there's no flip side of wanting to "win" persay, if you are willing to achieve that goal at any cost, even at the cost of your own life. There's nothing wrong with that, that's the spririt of sutemi. But let's say you are trying to win, while at the same time 'minimize" the damage or points scored on you to a minimum. U can kiss your spirit goodbye.

on a side note, to the starter of this thread. What the hell are you doing across from someone holding a sword at your face if you don't want to "win"? which also means to keep your life, you must not love your life, if i give the other person a real sword, do you think your attutide will change?

[Curtis]

there's no flip side of wanting to "win" persay, if you are willing to achieve that goal at any cost, even at the cost of your own life. There's nothing wrong with that, that's the spririt of sutemi. But let's say you are trying to win, while at the same time 'minimize" the damage or points scored on you to a minimum. U can kiss your spirit goodbye.

on a side note, to the starter of this thread. What the hell are you doing across from someone holding a sword at your face if you don't want to "win"? which also means to keep your life, you must not love your life, if i give the other person a real sword, do you think your attutide will change?

As they say, Amen to this!!!!

[Frame]

if you are willing to achieve that goal at any cost, even at the cost of your own life. There's nothing wrong with that, that's the spririt of sutemi. ?

oh no, you've got me all wrong. So you have the case where you have the desire to win at anycost as you said, but you could also go into the shiaijo being afraid/scared of losing thinking "I hope i don't make a tit of myself".

As the OP said that he didn't have much desire to win, wasn't very confident etc etc I thought he might just be afraid of cocking up shiai.

[Po5i]

Well, Thanks to everybody who wrote something, I personally think that all of you are right, and gave me intelligent advices or things to think about.

I come up with a conclusion, tomorrow morning is my tournament...

-Yes! I need more motivation, I have to represent my dojo well.
-I do shiai to represent my dojo, my dojo doesnt have much students, I'm an advanced one, I feel that is my duty to participate, someday I have to overcome this shiai problem that I mencioned in the first post.
-I need more warm up before the match, thanks sainueng.
-I'm not afraid of losing.. but I need more will to win.
-Masahiro, you are right! if the other person have a real sword, sure my attitude will change, I have to figure it out how to recognize and bring that feeling in the shiai.
-I really have to overcome this, and this will be one of my goals now.

It's really fantastic see that people share same problems that I have; Thanks to this forum.

Tonight I will travel to the city where the tournament will take place, I have 8 hours to integrate this ideas and raise my spirit to aim the goal.

It was not my intention, but this thread will be useful to lot of people who feel the same.

[MSPaintClock]

Good luck, have fun.

[cesarekim]

BTW,
How did the shiai go? Did you feel better doing it? Did you have fun?

[Po5i]

Better that other times, I feel more refreshed and confident, to tell the truth I lose my three shiais, but in every battle, the result was always the same, 1 point for me, 2 for my opponent, I really do good points, even I was congratulated by senseis.

I did a degote to the degote specialist hehehe.

I really have fun.

[ziggey]

LoL this quote just appeared among my gmail web clips thought It'd be adequate (spelling?)

Vince Lombardi - "Winning is not everything, but wanting to win is."