kote men

[Pokie]

Hey guys how's it goin ? Iv been wondering for a time now...with kote men, it's the men that count right ? Even if you make a really fantastic mind blowing kote strike, but if it's followed by a day dreamer's like men cut, there will be no point given isn't there ?

Oh and another thing, does kote men have to be done in 2 distinct steps or can it also be done in one distinct lunge/step ? I would like the idea of two cuts in one step thing...it's so much quicker...but hrmmm is it effective ?

Good Luck to AUSTRALIAN TEAM !!!! :D

[nodachi]

I was told that the whole purpose of kote men is for when you miss the kote, so you follow it up with a men. IF you get a fabulous kote, hopefully it scores, so don't follow it up with a men, unless you miss.

In practice we always do both, but in shiai you only follow up with the men if the kote misses.

Just throwing back things I was told, correct me if I am wrong.

[GMason]

Pokie,

Kote, Men can be done is several ways. As you say once step one cut, or one step two cuts.

The One step one cut is usually in my experience used for the bigger cuts or Kihon where as the two cuts in one step is alot faster and alot smaller. So you pretty much hit the nail on the head. You can do other Kote....Men, where you leave you left foot behind for the Kote and push off for the Men. But that is hard to do and even harder to explain on the web.

There are also alot of people (myself included) who use the Kote cut just to get the opening for the Men Cut i.e the Kote just bounce's of the Kote, if it connects at all and then the Men is a sound strong cut with Zanshin etc...

What methods of Kote Men, do other people use.

i.e Seme lift the Kensen to the opponents eye which opens the Kote......MEN.... !!!!!

[Hongsermeier]

nodachi is correct if the kote hits follow through without the men. If you skip the first step the kote will definatley not count so then the men must count or you've just waisted your time. I've been in situations where myself and my opponent went kote, both hit so niether one scored. However I followed up with the men and got the point. I think the pourpose of teaching kote men is to get you to keep attacking. If the other person quits, they die and you win. :cross_eye

[Charlie]

All true, I think. I've gotten pretty good at it, so that usually if I initiate kote-men, but I plant the kote, I can usually stop myself before the men.

A good way to practice it is to do it big, concentrating on each step with good fumikomi, thump, thump. Then, as fast as you can, thump-thump, but still big. Then, smaller, th-thump, and as fast as you can. Then, both in one long lunging step, as you suggested, while using the tsuki to guide you.

[Neil Gendzwill]

What Hongsermeier described is a good thing to practice - ai-kote then men. Hit one more than your opponent.

For kote-men the primary target is men. You can practice hitting kote from either side of the opponent's shinai. If you hit from your right (his left) then the action becomes harai men rather than kote men but the motion and footwork is exactly the same.

Basic kote men is one complete step for each cut, ie draw the left foot each time. More shiai-oriented is to leave the left foot put for the kote, then draw it after men. In this case the kote is fast and light, so say "te-men" rather than "kote-men" to help with the rhythm. In fact, the kote should always be lighter than the men. Don't stomp as hard on the kote - if you stomp too hard you tend to hold up your motion which makes it hard to follow quickly with the men.

As has been pointed out, if the kote is good but the men is bad the kote doesn't count. So don't hit the men if the kote is good. However as the primary target is men sometimes it's better to just leave the attack as fully commited, especially for beginners. In other words if this concept of not hitting the men interferes with the rhythm of kote-men, then just go through with the full sequence all the time.

[nollaig]

My problem with kote men is that I never think the kote will score so I go for the men
but the whole thing ends up as a shambles!!
I can't stop between cuts either
if I decide that kote-men is there and available I go for it full on.
My own take on this is to relax
if you are anyway stiff at all kote-men will never work
that just what I've found out myself
anyone else go an idea?

[JSchmidt]

The only time I 'choose', is when I go for kote and it's either ai-kote or I miss it, then I'll go for the men.
If I decide to go for kote-men, there's no way I can stop inbetween, should the kote be good..I just have to make it an extremly fancy kote-men :).

"so say "te-men" rather than "kote-men""

I don't know...I was always taught to to say "ko-men"..I'm sure it works better :p.

For me, visualization was a great aid in improving my kote-men..or rather, the sound of it. I would often sit and make that '2 step sound' with my hand on the table.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ko-men doesn't make any sense... small head? Also, te is a sharper sound.

[kendomushi]

My sensei teaches the kote of kote-men is more often used as a feint, to open the men for attack. However, he also insists that if you go to strike it, make it a strike that can score, don't do it half heartedly.
Testing for 2-3 dan we are always told that being able to use a kote-men effectively goes a long way in guaranteeing a passing grade. Anyone else been told this?

[iwatekenshi]

Yes a good kote-men shows that you have a good sense of seme and timing. Good for the testing.

[Steve]

Just my own personal opinion here, and i may ramble a bit... but i don't like the idea of "kotemen". (ie a "fake" kote, then a men) If you are going to do a strike, do a strike. Why half heartedly strike kote if your intention is men? Why not just go for men?

I think that when you strike kote-men, perform Kote. Men. strike with the full intent on hitting kote, then doing the men if kote fails. why develop skill in doing a "kotemen", when developing skill in both kote and men will result in the same effect.

Now, this doesn't mean you should not learn how to do "fakes" or some other type of "ruse" to create suki, or that you shouldn't use ni-dan or san-dan waza. kotemen almost seems like its more of a 1.5 step waza. I hope i'm able to convey what i'm trying to say here.

Isn't performing a kotemen instead of Kote - Men cheating you out of (in some way) of learning the elusive Kendo precept of a fearless, dedicated, intent when striking?

Long Story short, if you're going to hit kote...hit kote. if you're going to hit men...hit men. If you want to hit kote-men...hit Kote, then hit Men. Why slur either one?

Just my opinion.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well if your intent is a fearless attack, why not just hit kote? You're going to nail it, aren't you? :)

The primary target of kote-men as nidan waza is men. The purpose of the kote is to open up the men. That's why it's lighter than just a kote by itself - to allow you to easily transition into the men without delay. Note I said light, not haphazard. If you hit it, great. If you are able to recognize that you hit it and hold up the men, also great. But there's something to be said for executing that waza with the nice rhythm and the inevitable men. pa-PAM, not BAM-BAM.

[Pokie]

once again thanks for all the advise. will keep working on it...so hard to get the concept right..but i will keep trying, thanks again..been a real great help

[sminki]

joining the discussion late, but just wanted to make one point.

obviously, there are numerous ways that one can view kote-men. i.e., kote being the feint, hit men only when kote misses, etc. But I generally tend to agree with Hong in that the point is to keep attacking. I have been taught that the kote in kote-men should have the full intent to land a valid strike, and not just as a feint move. My experiences has been that if you hit a great kote in a kote-men, the opponent flinches and the men opens anyway making room for a valid men. There's a great example of this in one of Masahiro Miyazaki's older All Japan Champs where he strikes a perfect kote, follows up with zanzhin for a 1/5 of a second, sees the men opening and strikes a great men. The flags were on their way up for kote, but he saw the opening and struck. I guess if I were to put a hard-core samurai interpretation on this, it states that kote only disables the opponent, but men really finishes. So one might make the argument that the men on the kote-men is a product of zanshin.

[slidercrank]

Originally posted by sminki
I guess if I were to put a hard-core samurai interpretation on this, it states that kote only disables the opponent, but men really finishes.

This is a very neat way of putting it. A lot of shiai kendo players would do well to keep this statement in their heads, imho.

[Paburo]

what about the kote men that is not really planned but comes from opportunity?

for instance, i almost never think 'im going to do kote men now'

but i actually go for kote. if the kote lands on the target i do kote zanshin. but if the kote is blocked or it fails, i instantly go for men.

the result is a PAM--PAM. both hits equally hard. but men usually catching aite offguard and scoring.

is this a wrong thing to do? should the last hit always be THAT much harder than the first in nidan waza?

or doubting for an instant between attacks isnt even considered nidan waza?

[Hongsermeier]

Paburo...The kote men you speak of got me through a tough match in our last taikai. We both went kote. Both hit kote. He stoped, I went men. I won. If it is a true kote men the first strike is not meant for a point. :cross_eye

[sminki]

"If it is a true kote men the first strike is not meant for a point."

Some people may differ with this idea. In any case, even if the first strike is not meant to be a point, you should never half-ass the first kote thinking "well, it wasn't meant to be a valid strike". I think you should still go for kote as though you fully intend to strike it. It also makes your kote-men less obvious. If you start out half-assing the kote, the opponent can easily see that you're really going for men unless he/she is stirred very easily.

Also, I don't think the second hit has to be necessarily harder. Since you go for kote as though you fully intend to land that strike, your kote is as equally powerful as men. I think that it still constitutes a nidan waza.

[Hongsermeier]

I'm in agreement with sminki. I guess I didn't get my wording correct. I didn't mean to half ass the kote. I guess what I was trying to say is a nidan waza kote men has no pause. It's kotemen, where as a kote....men is not really a nidan waza. It still works. It's just a timing difference. In the kyu ranks you can get away with a kote.....men. In the dan ranks, you will most likely not be so lucky. :cross_eye

[Inouye02]

hey brad , thats why Honda scores with his willie waza....

kote mmmmmmmen !! not kote men..throws the timing off

[Karaken]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
Paburo...The kote men you speak of got me through a tough match in our last taikai. We both went kote. Both hit kote. He stoped, I went men. I won. If it is a true kote men the first strike is not meant for a point. :cross_eye

I'm with Sminki also, If Hongs went half-ass Kote and the other guy went for real, the point would have gone to the other way. Hongs' Men wouldn't have counted.

No doubt there is a time I went for a men with fake Kote but I think that is totally different Kote-Men than Real Kote - Real Men.

Am I conflicting myself?

Fake Kote - Real Men
Real Kote ( Failed ) - Real Men
Real Kote ( Succeed ) - Real Men ( Failed ) - Oops!
Real Kote ( Succeed ) - Real Men (Succeed) - well you'd better get this one..

All in th life of Kote-Men

Center..

[Neil Gendzwill]

What you guys are talking about as "real" kote followed by "real" men are two seperate actions. It's valid but it's not usually the timing or the feeling we are looking for with kote-men. Kote-men is more like one action. That's why I say if you can stop if the kote succeeds, good on you, but for beginners I'd rather see them carry on through with the committed attack. A lighter kote doesn't mean half-assed, it just means lighter. The kote part of kote-men has a much different feel to it than an individual kote.

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Hongsermeier
I'm in agreement with sminki. I guess I didn't get my wording correct. I didn't mean to half ass the kote. I guess what I was trying to say is a nidan waza kote men has no pause. It's kotemen, where as a kote....men is not really a nidan waza. It still works. It's just a timing difference. In the kyu ranks you can get away with a kote.....men. In the dan ranks, you will most likely not be so lucky. :cross_eye

I guess it depends on whether or not you are meaning to go for kote or men. The target you are going for when you are doing kote-men nidan waza is men. So kote-men in that sense should be seamless. If you are going for kote initially and miss, the other person lets his guard down, and then you quickly go men and hit it properly, it should be ok. I hope that this isn't too confusing..

Tim

[Pokie]

Thanks a lot guys...so there's two general kinds of kote men. pause and no pause...just depends on how you think the opponent would react weaker to by the sounds of it...what im scared of with the no pause one is wen the opponent is just waiting for my men to come to him and counter it...yes....i think his smile wud be the last thing i see..or her..make it preferrably her..with a wink..yes...hahah thanks guys

[Jeffu]

I was told by my Sensei (Hachi-dan) that in the old days you could score a point by doing a good kote in a kote-men, but now a days It's the last Men that counts. If you do a good kote but the men is not good, you wil not get a point.

jeffu

[Andoru]

Excellent and insightful pointers! What a great thread!

[Dave Fowler]

My sensei teaches the kote of kote-men is more often used as a feint, to open the men for attack. However, he also insists that if you go to strike it, make it a strike that can score, don't do it half heartedly.
Testing for 2-3 dan we are always told that being able to use a kote-men effectively goes a long way in guaranteeing a passing grade. Anyone else been told this?
When I did mine this year, supposedly it was my kote men that got me the most impressionable marks. Everyone on the side lines said they saw all the judges nodding their heads when I did a really pretty kote men. (nidan grading)

[SirFingerLickin]

Whenever I try for kote men, I feel that my kote gets overwhelmed and so I can't quite find the distance to get the men off. I dont think I'm getting too close. Is it a lack of skill with seme or something? Does kote men, more or less need to be 'set up' for me before it can be done effectively?

[Dave Fowler]

Whenever I try for kote men, I feel that my kote gets overwhelmed and so I can't quite find the distance to get the men off. I dont think I'm getting too close. Is it a lack of skill with seme or something? Does kote men, more or less need to be 'set up' for me before it can be done effectively?
Do you mean that you find the men is too close? If so keep these things in mind.

1. Smaller steps, both the kote and the men.
2. Have to be fairly quick as your opponent is typically coming towards you as well.
3. Don't lean or move back prior to attacking, that is my biggest problem in that I try to set myself before attacking waiting for the other person to attack and then can't shift my weight fast nuff. If your always thinking of attacking and not receiving it will help.
4. And of course timing, work on it at a much slower pace and just keep doing it over and over, and it will work itself out :-)

[-Miburo-]

in practice, my men cut is too close after the kote cut. how should i avoid this problem?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Take a smaller step for kote and make sure you extend your arms for it. Most people take too big a step and hit the kote with their arms bent, that puts your body too close to make a nice men.

[Keith Hong]

Back to practicing kendo after a hiatus. Didn't get to practice most last year after opening my dental clinic. Not so much a lack of time as lack of mental leisure.
Anyway, couldn't put off Kendo forever, so just bit the bullet and started going to the dojo this February. I still feel the hiatus in my lack of breath and all, but feel great about doing Kendo again.
This question, though. When doing nidan-waza, the footwork...
I, like most people at my dojo, do a sort of bunnyhop with my kote and a regular fumikomi and left foot follow-up on my men strike.
Some people just fumikomi with the right foot on the kote without the left foot follow-up and fumikomi with the right footon the men strike and follow with the left foot. Sort of fumikomi, fumikomi and left foot.
In most books I've seen, though, the foot work is explaned as fumikomi once followed by left foot follow-up and fumikomi again followed by left foot follow-up.

Maybe someone could shed some on this...?

[Neil Gendzwill]

The basic technique is two proper steps, fumikomi both times. Variations include suriashi on the kote, and only drawing the left foot on the men. The latter is more of a competition style, and especially useful for a very quick one or when the distance is a little close.

[Twobitmage]

I was told that kote men is also for sorta a fake, like if he blocks or reacts to the kote, then his men is probably open. Also that even if he sees it coming, its sorta hard to block two attacks coming at you so quickly