Odd question for females [Archive]

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Shogun

30-10-2006, 01:50 AM

Ok this is gonna be an odd question but please bear with me.I know when females are struck in the chest there is a larger degree of pain than if a male is hit there......so my question is when you are sparring (in bogu) and you are struck in the chest area does it still hurt even though you are in protective gear?.......this question stems from being struck in the groin (while wearing a cup) and still having lots o' pain possibly from the vibration or impact....

I just want to know so the next time im sparring a female i wont have to hold back! OSU!!

P.S. im a male :p

stephanie dee

30-10-2006, 02:50 AM

Erm, in general I would say that for me, it doesn't overally hurt. I have fenced people who have tried to cut Do and have failed... and it can hurt then...

Personally, I have *ahem* a rather large chest *ahem* and I find that if people cut properly then it doesnt even come close. But sometimes people manage to get that area... and yeah it hurts then.

Bennosuke

30-10-2006, 03:22 AM

What about tsuki to the top of the do? I can't imagine why I"m getting involved w/ this thread ;)

h2o

30-10-2006, 03:26 AM

I just want to know so the next time im sparring a female i wont have to hold back! OSU!!Learn to hit correctly instead. :P
And if I was a girl, I'd be disappointed if anyone went soft on me because of my gender. Going soft on someone because of level of skill, age or size is of course another matter.

Shogun

30-10-2006, 04:37 AM

I generaly tell females (before i spar them) im gonna go easy on em' becuase they are females,this usually makes the very angry thus clouding their focus......and so i have allready won on the mental battlefield.

I try to piss people off and anger them before matches.nothing is easyer than sparring a non-focused ball of anger. :D

Shogun

30-10-2006, 04:37 AM

I generaly tell females (before i spar them) im gonna go easy on em' becuase they are females,this usually makes the very angry thus clouding their focus......and so i have allready won on the mental battlefield.

I try to piss people off and anger them before matches.nothing is easyer than sparring a non-focused ball of anger. :D

Shogun

30-10-2006, 04:37 AM

Maybe this is why i am so hated by so many......usually a handshake after a match clears things up :)

P.S. Sorry bout the double post. :p

rottunpunk

30-10-2006, 04:44 AM

put it this way, if you do hit the chest area, and especially if they are tender because of the time of the month, your groin protector wont end up where you left it :D

i got tsuki'd in the collarbone t'other day, that was a bit owy-no bruise though, very disapointing
:p

Shogun

30-10-2006, 04:58 AM

put it this way, if you do hit the chest area, and especially if they are tender because of the time of the month, your groin protector wont end up where you left it :D

Ill keep this in mind.

rottunpunk

30-10-2006, 05:01 AM

good fellow
also, they will be even more irate if they think you are going easy on you because they are wimmin :D
i get better when im truly angry... apparently :evil:
:p

Shogun

30-10-2006, 05:07 AM

good fellow
also, they will be even more irate if they think you are going easy on you because they are wimmin :D
i get better when im truly angry... apparently :evil:
:p

You know u could never be angry with me *hugs* :D

Serenity

30-10-2006, 06:41 AM

I generaly tell females (before i spar them) im gonna go easy on em' becuase they are females,this usually makes the very angry thus clouding their focus......and so i have allready won on the mental battlefield.

Thats just wrong. U dont have to say that. I train kendo for about 2 years and no one has sad something like this to me. I think if someone would, I would be really confused.

I had jigeiko with senseis, skilled kendokas, newbies, kids, boys and girls - they just adjusted to me. If u think so must go ease one some girls, just do it, dont tell them, but some girls just wanna be seen as equal.

To your original question - it hurts (very much), but missing the do or any other target is a part of kendo too. :rambo:

kartoffelngeist

30-10-2006, 07:04 AM

I generaly tell females (before i spar them) im gonna go easy on em' becuase they are females,this usually makes the very angry thus clouding their focus......and so i have allready won on the mental battlefield.

I try to piss people off and anger them before matches.nothing is easyer than sparring a non-focused ball of anger. :D

That's a bit sad really...

This thread does seem to be in the '16 year old wants to talk about tits' catgory, but that's maybe just me being cynical...

Shogun

30-10-2006, 10:04 AM

I think if someone would, I would be really confused.

Exactly my point.You would be confused and thus you concentration would be clouded.Must i remind you all of the saying "30 Ken,70 Kan"

Shogun

30-10-2006, 10:05 AM

That's a bit sad really...

This thread does seem to be in the '16 year old wants to talk about tits' catgory, but that's maybe just me being cynical...

Yes you are being cynical.

Alison2805

30-10-2006, 10:28 AM

well, the only time it hurts more then it would for a guy is when a do hit goes too high on the side (ie boob). You can hit do as hard as you like and it wont hurt at all (if you are doing it properly). Im quite short, so I get walloped above the do on my side LOTS. It hurts heaps and I get big bruises. Not nice. I would pefer a missed tsuki personally.

But like Serenity said, missed hits are a part of kendo. I let people know when they miss so they can correct themselves, but I never get upset about it (unless some jerk does a huge wind-up, baseball home-run type hit, which hasnt happened yet!! Ive only seen that happen to the guys). I think I may go postal if someone did one of those monster hits on me and missed.

Kirinhale

30-10-2006, 07:55 PM

I've never had any pain from a do cut that was too high, though take it from me, if a guy does tai atari on me 3 times a row, he'll pay for it. :p

neko

30-10-2006, 09:54 PM

last night i actually got hit straight across the front of the chest, on the mune part of the dou. i was surprised that it did not hurt a bit. let's just say, i too am gifted in the upper regions. a high dou on the side does hurt a bit more, but it hurts my ribs more than anything and would hurt a guy there just as much. if you are large chested a good sports bra can do wonders. packing them in tight, seems to be the key.

bullet08

30-10-2006, 11:07 PM

hmm.. does it make difference if one has huge package up there or not? last few practices we have been doing gyaku-do, and it hurts like crap when somone misses. as matter of fact, missed do just plainly hurts when it hits the rib.

pete

ghostdancer

30-10-2006, 11:15 PM

Kenzan

31-10-2006, 01:29 AM

I can't imagine why I"m getting involved w/ this thread ;)

Sukebe kara.
:D :silly:

Paikea

31-10-2006, 01:42 AM

I generaly tell females (before i spar them) im gonna go easy on em' becuase they are females,this usually makes the very angry thus clouding their focus......and so i have allready won on the mental battlefield.

I try to piss people off and anger them before matches.nothing is easyer than sparring a non-focused ball of anger. :DWhich is why you got plonked a long time ago...

Theodore

31-10-2006, 06:59 AM

Shogun, Combine your attitude in posts 1 and 6 in this thread and you WILL at some time end up with a tare tsuki. As they used to say on Hill Street Blues, "Be careful out there."

Paikea

31-10-2006, 08:22 AM

Shogun, Combine your attitude in posts 1 and 6 in this thread and you WILL at some time end up with a tare tsuki. As they used to say on Hill Street Blues, "Be careful out there."I was just musing about how interesting it would be to watch someone go up to our mutually-known sensei and present those ideas. Probably would not go over well...

Landorph

31-10-2006, 09:36 AM

this thread is for perverted guys... stop talking abt it

Alison2805

31-10-2006, 10:29 AM

Talking about boobs is perverted????? ummmmm..... cant say I agree with you on that one.

kartoffelngeist

31-10-2006, 08:02 PM

It is if you're a 16 year old boy who tries to distract girls before sparring so he can win...

Theodore

01-11-2006, 01:43 AM

I was just musing about how interesting it would be to watch someone go up to our mutually-known sensei and present those ideas. Probably would not go over well...

It would not be very pretty. Banished for life would be about the size of it. Can't think of any of my coaches, Nadi, Okawa, Mizobe, Koike, etc. who would take that attitude with a grain of salt.

Kitsune

10-11-2006, 02:55 AM

well, the only time it hurts more then it would for a guy is when a do hit goes too high on the side (ie boob).

That's one of the most painful one! And the other at least for me is right on the hip bone... It is awful when someone hit you there and still hurts after a while. Sometimes the pain persist for a couple of days.

h2o

10-11-2006, 06:16 AM

And the other at least for me is right on the hip bone... It is awful when someone hit you there and still hurts after a while. Sometimes the pain persist for a couple of days.That is luckily (?) a unisex problem. :)

SmellsLikeBogu

10-11-2006, 06:32 PM

I've never had any pain from a do cut that was too high, though take it from me, if a guy does tai atari on me 3 times a row, he'll pay for it. :p

hehehe :D Ill try that next time you visit ;)

btw there's a difference between tai atari and hockey-style body-check :p

Kitsune

12-11-2006, 11:01 AM

That is luckily (?) a unisex problem. :)

If a guy has bog hip bones, cos when you have big hip bones it hurts the most

Inner_Silence

12-11-2006, 02:08 PM

If a guy has bog hip bones, cos when you have big hip bones it hurts the most

ahm...
i supose that a direct hit in the breast should really hurt... but the fact that a guy doesnt have hip or boobs it doesnt mean that it its painless for guys...

Kirinhale

13-11-2006, 02:18 AM

hehehe :D Ill try that next time you visit ;)

btw there's a difference between tai atari and hockey-style body-check :p

You aren't going to try anything :tongue:

h2o

13-11-2006, 07:01 AM

If a guy has bog hip bones, cos when you have big hip bones it hurts the most
It hasn't only got to do with the size of the hips. How much protecting body fat you have is also relevant.

SmellsLikeBogu

13-11-2006, 05:35 PM

You aren't going to try anything :tongue:

are you coming to the kyu-championships this weekend? or is your mother acting up again :p

Kirinhale

14-11-2006, 01:11 AM

are you coming to the kyu-championships this weekend? or is your mother acting up again :p

Eek! That's this weekend? I'll probably be busy studying all weekend :down:

Kitsune

14-11-2006, 02:39 AM

ahm...
i supose that a direct hit in the breast should really hurt... but the fact that a guy doesnt have hip or boobs it doesnt mean that it its painless for guys...

I did not mean that you guys can not feel pain, I ment that in my case, as a woman with big hip bones the pain last longer... At least for me is that way, most of it when someone doh my hip bone and it's not the same when someone doh my boobs cos there is more fat there and the pain desapared fast, that's what I meant.

h2o

14-11-2006, 03:21 AM

I did not mean that you guys can not feel pain, I ment that in my case, as a woman with big hip bones the pain last longer....I'd love to hear how you did the tests to come up with that statement. :p

Kitsune

14-11-2006, 03:43 AM

What do you mean????:cyclops:

h2o

14-11-2006, 03:47 AM

What do you mean????:cyclops: I am just curious how you can know that your pain lasts longer than if you were a boy.

Kitsune

14-11-2006, 03:53 AM

Easy, talking to them... after the class I always ask when and accident happened and they always say it's ok now, the pain's off... And when they ask me, the pain (only when is my hip) still there and there is an awful bruise that last at least a week. That's it.

Maybe I should said that the only examples of guys I have in kendo are my classmates and maybe they're stronger than other guys in other dojos, I don't know...

SmellsLikeBogu

14-11-2006, 06:14 PM

Eek! That's this weekend? I'll probably be busy studying all weekend :down:
yeah :)
luckely all the kojika kyu's are alot younger then me so they fall in a differenc category :p so I wont get my ass whooped by them :)
I'll be happy man if I get to score one point though :) must remember to not go outside the white lines this time :p and no rolling on the floor!
wish me luck :p

Kirinhale

15-11-2006, 03:07 AM

yeah :)
luckely all the kojika kyu's are alot younger then me so they fall in a differenc category :p so I wont get my ass whooped by them :)
I'll be happy man if I get to score one point though :) must remember to not go outside the white lines this time :p and no rolling on the floor!
wish me luck :p

Good luck!
And could you film the entire championship for me? :ditsy:
Seriously :tongue:

(to avoid hansoku, don't lose sight of the centre)

ReKru

15-11-2006, 08:56 PM

Easy, talking to them... after the class I always ask when and accident happened and they always say it's ok now, the pain's off...

To quote Al Bundy on male behavior when trying to impress chix0rs: "And the noise of our splintering bones still echoes trough the valley, when we're up again, shouting 'I'm ok, nothing serious'".

Inner_Silence

16-11-2006, 12:22 PM

I am just curious how you can know that your pain lasts longer than if you were a boy.

man...

i was thinking the same thing, but i didnt make any comments... becouse... hmmm how can i say this...

do you want to have a good sleep tonight? or u want to have a vodoo spirit haunting your soul from here to eternity and living in pain and suferring of the karma laws for the rest of all times??

then:

dont argue with this girls!

youll make of this world a better and safer place to live.
trust me on this one.

:silly: :silly: :silly:
:D:D:D:D:D:D

(besides, im the one who is takin the speech next friday :( )

Kitsune

17-11-2006, 01:40 AM

Do not appear tomorrow in class!!!

Inner_Silence

20-11-2006, 03:42 PM

thats excactly what i mean :(

Kitsune

21-11-2006, 12:27 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:p

rothalion

23-03-2007, 02:01 PM

Hmmm....New here so I'm not sure about the atmosphere...Western fencing breats protectors. I thought about them after my first hard hit to do on Sunday. As for female vs male...I think that maybe clean kendo will overcome a male ego that would stoop to tricks in order to gain advantage..

Dragon Ninja

14-06-2007, 07:44 AM

Yea it did hurt...but I felt more pain in my ribcage compared to my breast...

they paid for it afterwards :)

GavinP

14-06-2007, 06:40 PM

I think the groin protectors and the plastic breast protectors that I have seen are more about preventing the deeper tissue damage from a wayward hit rather than take away the pain of a hit altogether. I've received a few groin hits over the years and a cup has stopped them from being a crippling, 'will my vision ever come back' sort of pain into something more like a towel flick, painful but superficial.

Dragon Ninja

14-06-2007, 09:29 PM

oh god groin hits...

yea I remember this one time when my ovary got stabbed..I wanted to kill that fucker.

ScottUK

14-06-2007, 09:41 PM

Eh? How did you get ovary-tsuki'ed...?

satsumaruma

15-06-2007, 01:04 AM

Aaaaaargh,

so many comments.....not a single one of them politically correct...

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

Dragon Ninja

15-06-2007, 01:28 PM

Eh? How did you get ovary-tsuki'ed...?

The dude had a low kamae, and just walked into me---and it went under my tare X_x

I warned all my male friends not to keiko with him if they want to make babies in the future

Alison2805

15-06-2007, 03:08 PM

Ovaries? Seriously? Yikes.

Ive gotten into the habit of tying my do higher than most guys, and when I make an opening for do I dont lift my arms above the level of my boobs - since Ive started that I havent copped any nasty hits in a while.

ScottUK

15-06-2007, 06:15 PM

The dude had a low kamae, and just walked into me---and it went under my tare X_xDamn girl how tall are you...? :D

Hisham

15-06-2007, 09:47 PM

The only way i can imagine that happening is that her opponent was in gedan and his timing was very off in lifting his shinai.

Dragon Ninja

15-06-2007, 10:02 PM

Damn girl how tall are you...? :D

I'm not that tall (5'4"), but the dude was around my height, and his kamae was abnormally low (it looked parallel to the ground rather than gedan).

Inner_Silence

16-06-2007, 12:37 AM

ScottUK

16-06-2007, 12:41 AM

Well, that has pissed all over your sig... :D

Inner_Silence

16-06-2007, 12:49 AM

oh god groin hits...

yea I remember this one time when my ovary got stabbed..I wanted to kill that fucker.

my homble opinion:

letme remind you that in kendo when you have an accident it is becouse of YOUR LACK OF ZANSHIN. not becouse other guy hits you. even if the other guy hits you on porpuse (wich i dont think its the case) it is supossed that you have enough zanshin to avoid all attacks.

so my recomendation is
1.- watch your languaje first
2.- think about why you practice kendo, thos kind off stuff like "i wanted to kill that..." are no manners inside of a dojo. all martial arts budo is to keep people away from those kinds of violent behaviours. ask your sensei about that.
3.- practice more kendo. your zanshin and ettiquete will improve trough hard training

Inner_Silence

16-06-2007, 12:50 AM

oh god groin hits...

yea I remember this one time when my ovary got stabbed..I wanted to kill that fucker.

my humble opinion:

letme remind you that in kendo when you have an accident it is becouse of YOUR LACK OF ZANSHIN. not becouse other guy hits you. even if the other guy hits you on porpuse (wich i dont think its the case) it is supossed that you have enough zanshin to avoid all attacks.

so my recomendation is
1.- watch your language first
2.- think about why you practice kendo, thos kind off stuff like "i wanted to kill that..." are no manners inside of a dojo. all martial arts budo is to keep people away from those kinds of violent behaviours. ask your sensei about that.
3.- practice more kendo. your zanshin and ettiquete will improve trough hard training

satsumaruma

16-06-2007, 03:11 AM

my humble opinion:

letme remind you that in kendo when you have an accident it is becouse of YOUR LACK OF ZANSHIN. not becouse other guy hits you. even if the other guy hits you on porpuse (wich i dont think its the case) it is supossed that you have enough zanshin to avoid all attacks.

Easier said than done of course. Especially for beginners.

My own view is that if someone tries to 'hurt' you on purpose then they are now fair game.

Kendo is a hobby/sport/martial art which most of us do in our spare time for a plethora of reasons. What none of us need is some gung-ho a-hole thinking they can batter us.

Once fenced a quite senior kendoka who was being a tit to put it bluntly; trying to batter me rather than teach me (and yes boys and girls I know the difference). One nicely timed strike to the ankles soon had him thinking twice and put him firmly back to nice defensive chudan.

Keegs

16-06-2007, 04:02 AM

Easier said than done of course. Especially for beginners.

My own view is that if someone tries to 'hurt' you on purpose then they are now fair game.

Kendo is a hobby/sport/martial art which most of us do in our spare time for a plethora of reasons. What none of us need is some gung-ho a-hole thinking they can batter us.

Once fenced a quite senior kendoka who was being a tit to put it bluntly; trying to batter me rather than teach me (and yes boys and girls I know the difference). One nicely timed strike to the ankles soon had him thinking twice and put him firmly back to nice defensive chudan.

Note to self: dont p*ss you off :P

Inner_Silence

16-06-2007, 05:23 AM

sorry about the double post.

Easier said than done of course. Especially for beginners.
totally agree.

i think that we would have a better world if instead of thinking "I wanted to kill that..." we think something like "i know he never meant to hurt me, so no hard feelings".

Big One

16-06-2007, 11:39 AM

All the ladies complained the bruises from here or there... I don't believe them at all. I want proof. Show me pictures and we can talk.:dog:

Dragon Ninja

16-06-2007, 11:56 AM

my humble opinion:

letme remind you that in kendo when you have an accident it is becouse of YOUR LACK OF ZANSHIN. not becouse other guy hits you. even if the other guy hits you on porpuse (wich i dont think its the case) it is supossed that you have enough zanshin to avoid all attacks.

so my recomendation is
1.- watch your language first
2.- think about why you practice kendo, thos kind off stuff like "i wanted to kill that..." are no manners inside of a dojo. all martial arts budo is to keep people away from those kinds of violent behaviours. ask your sensei about that.
3.- practice more kendo. your zanshin and ettiquete will improve trough hard training

I'm sure if you got your testicles stabbed, your mind would not be so calm at the moment of impact.

I do not practice kendo with the intent to "kill people," when that incident happened, my first reaction was a combination of pain and anger. The best way to describe how I felt in words was what I wrote in the previous post. I also did not blame everything on him, sure, his kamae was messed up, but sure at the same time maybe my zanshin was off.

I am also aware of budo trying to calm your mind and reduce violent behavior.

LarsCW

16-06-2007, 12:32 PM

Before I improved on my tenouchi the only woman at our dojo always seemed to dread receiving hits from me.

When I was still using dojo bogu I got hit a few times when turning to the side receiving alot of doh strikes that because that doh was too small I would get hit on my nipple, which really hurts, especially if it gets hit by some lumber jack using no-tenouchi-chop-chop waza.

Ofcourse not to mention those attempts during jigeiko going for doh hitting your elbow. The only advantage of that was that i didn't use my right arm anymore that night at practise because it hurt too much.

Ofcourse when asked by any female Kitsune, I wouldn't have any pain at all only bruizes I would show like they would be my throphies.:D

satsumaruma

16-06-2007, 06:56 PM

All the ladies complained the bruises from here or there... I don't believe them at all. I want proof. Show me pictures and we can talk.:dog:

Seconded.

(but nothing to do with ovaries -yew)

nemini

21-02-2008, 06:00 PM

Women do have vulnerable spots of their own. And they are perfectly comparable with the vulnerability of the testicles.

First, the breasticles. They surely hurt a lot. I had a girlfriend whose boobs were so sensitive that it was impossible to caress them – that would invariably bring her to tears. No doubt a punch to the boobs would have simply killed her. But a punch to the boob wouldn't stop most women. Now imagine a punch to your balls... Would that stop ya? Most definitely, not. Because a punch is not the same as a kick. Women mostly spar with women and you should keep in mind that a woman's punch is times weaker than a man's. I used to be an MA instructor and I've seen women incapacitated by a blow to that area. And they were down for quite a while...

The second spot is, the lower abdomen, which implies two organs – the uterus and the ovaries. There is this myth that you can't hit a woman's ovaries/uterus because they are protected by the abs. So-o-o, here is a question: can you hit someone's kidneys? The answer is "Yes". But they are protected by, sometimes stronger, spinal muscles. And as someone said above, a blow to that area may be incapacitating just as a comparable blow to the balls.

And finally, the biggest myth of all - that it doesn't hurt a woman to get kicked in the crotch. Nonsense! While men only have balls down there (the penis is practically insensitive to impact), women have the labia and the clitoris. The latter is more sensitive than the former. And is sensitive enough to incapacitate its owner (-' ... Normally, self defence instructors don't distinguish between male and female attackers – a crotch kick may work equally well on both.

But, if you want to attack any girl, keep in mind that any serious injury in the nether region may result in neurogenic shock which in turn may cause death. And whereas men can only die of pain shock caused by a "low blow", a woman can also bleed to death if you rupture the clitoris. Also a hard blow to the lower abdomen may rupture an ovary too. And that may be lethal also!

And, yeah, one more thing. DRAGON NINJA warned all her male friends "not to keiko with him if they want to make babies in the future" because most people think that a kick to the groin can easily make a man sterile, but in fact it's the other way round. It's way easier to render a woman sterile by a hit in the nether region! For a man you need to crush both testes, which is practically impossible with one strike (given their mobility). With women it's different (well, everything is different with women, isn't it? (-') – even a relatively light blow to their genitals can lead to damages that cause sterility.

BUT...

No matter man or woman attacks you (or you attack), I wouldn't really rely on cheap shots. Haven't you seen guys who don't even flinch when kicked hard in the balls? And they don't wince not because they don't have balls or because you missed. They don't react because it doesn't really hurt em! (And it's still another myth that any guy's balls are sensitive!) The same applies to women – some of them don’t have any vulnerable spots just because such is their anatomy. You never know beforehand. So in most cases it's better to fight fair.

imouto

16-05-2008, 12:16 AM

After copping my first kendo hit in the wrong spot. And yes, it was in the boob.

It wasn't a full on hit.

It hurt. A lot.

But I kept training anyway.

Doomcat

21-06-2008, 02:46 AM

What about tsuki to the top of the do?

I hate that more than a Do in the chest.

Usually i don't get many (not) Do in the chest, i get more in the hip and those hurt a lot more.

See ya!

Doomcat

22-06-2008, 07:43 AM

I think nobody in my dojo hurts me cause they want to, mistakes allways happens in training. Of course I get piss off by the pain, but I try to calm down and always remember that pain should not be a distraction in times of keiko, and also that all the people in my dojo are my friends, and are learning (as i do) to do their best so there's no reason to be rude.
But anyway when people strikes me too hard i tend to tell them, in a nice way (of course)

P.D: sorry for the bad english, not my best as you can se :P

James

23-06-2008, 01:33 AM

.....
But, if you want to attack any girl, keep in mind that any serious injury in the nether region may result in neurogenic shock which in turn may cause death. And whereas men can only die of pain shock caused by a "low blow", a woman can also bleed to death if you rupture the clitoris. Also a hard blow to the lower abdomen may rupture an ovary too. And that may be lethal also!...

nemini - you are insane

PamelaHval

23-06-2008, 01:48 AM

Hi: Someone wrote of retaliating by striking the ankles but as that's understood to be bad manners, both fencers could be in the wrong. My seniors have said "hang in, hang on," keep the kamae no matter what weird or cruel stuff may happen. As written earlier, "bell-ringing" men strikes tend to be from poor tenouchi; but with such hitters, I use a thicker helmet on the day, and need try to be more alert and faster. A suit shoulder pad taped to the breast may avoid high doh-strike pain.

Maku-san

23-06-2008, 02:17 AM

After reading Dragon Ninja's post, I sincerely had to wince! :eek: That was definitely a low blow and one had to be A: Blind or B: Stupid or C: BOTH to have landed such a blow to her genital region, regardless of how "vigorous" the keiko/match was. I do keiko with a female kendoka (a teenager, at that!) and while I don't hold back, I make an extra conscious effort to place my strikes (esp. do) much, much better than normal. I think it helps me overall, because then, when I do keiko with the guys, I strike do better as well. :happy:

Dragon Ninja: while it was very honorable that you restrained yourself from "killing [the] f***er", I would have gently had his ear after keiko to say that the low blow, however inadvertent or otherwise, was not appreciated at all. Yes, it sounds like whining about pain, but I do respect a kendoka that gives me feedback to improve my kendo. I'm not saying that you should encourage your fellow kendoka to "hold up" when sparring with you, but I do believe that you ladies have, please forgive me if I put it this way, "very important equipment" that should be protected/respected at all costs.

Just my humble opinion, my dear fellow kendoka. :happy:

Maku-san

23-06-2008, 02:24 AM

All the ladies complained the bruises from here or there... I don't believe them at all. I want proof. Show me pictures and we can talk.:dog:

What happened to "trust"??? :( Ya'll wouldn't want to have to show them pictures of your nutz after getting scroto-tsuki'd, eh? Same thing with the ladies, pal! :laugh:

Mark :beard:

Fred27

23-06-2008, 03:30 AM

After copping my first kendo hit in the wrong spot. And yes, it was in the boob.

It wasn't a full on hit.

It hurt. A lot.

But I kept training anyway.

Not kendo-related, but related: These past 3 years I've managed to hurt my sempais boob using the jo in a do barai fashion. (not kendo do barai but jodo). I keep telling her to get one of those padded bra's or whatever but she's too stubborn..I also think she enjoys hitting me over the head with her sword each times I accidentally poke her boob.

Roberto

23-06-2008, 04:18 AM

[QUOTE=Dragon Ninja;263667]I'm sure if you got your testicles stabbed, your mind would not be so calm at the moment of impact. QUOTE]

That is a fact!.. Been hited in the testes is the most horrible pain a man can feel. I never thought about that the genitala rea in women actually could be painful if it's hited, but I knew after accidentally elbowed a girl in High School who was standing back of me.. ya know, you turn back without noticing she was there, me moving arms and ups!.. She didn't killed me for that and I was really sorry for that

Roberto

23-06-2008, 04:41 AM

Women do have vulnerable spots of their own. And they are perfectly comparable with the vulnerability of the testicles.

The second spot is, the lower abdomen, which implies two organs – the uterus and the ovaries. There is this myth that you can't hit a woman's ovaries/uterus because they are protected by the abs. So-o-o, here is a question: can you hit someone's kidneys? The answer is "Yes". But they are protected by, sometimes stronger, spinal muscles. And as someone said above, a blow to that area may be incapacitating just as a comparable blow to the balls.

And finally, the biggest myth of all - that it doesn't hurt a woman to get kicked in the crotch. Nonsense! While men only have balls down there (the penis is practically insensitive to impact), women have the labia and the clitoris. The latter is more sensitive than the former. And is sensitive enough to incapacitate its owner (-' ... Normally, self defence instructors don't distinguish between male and female attackers – a crotch kick may work equally well on both.

But, if you want to attack any girl, keep in mind that any serious injury in the nether region may result in neurogenic shock which in turn may cause death. And whereas men can only die of pain shock caused by a "low blow", a woman can also bleed to death if you rupture the clitoris. Also a hard blow to the lower abdomen may rupture an ovary too. And that may be lethal also!

And, yeah, one more thing. DRAGON NINJA warned all her male friends "not to keiko with him if they want to make babies in the future" because most people think that a kick to the groin can easily make a man sterile, but in fact it's the other way round. It's way easier to render a woman sterile by a hit in the nether region! For a man you need to crush both testes, which is practically impossible with one strike (given their mobility). With women it's different (well, everything is different with women, isn't it? (-') – even a relatively light blow to their genitals can lead to damages that cause sterility.

BUT...

No matter man or woman attacks you (or you attack), I wouldn't really rely on cheap shots. Haven't you seen guys who don't even flinch when kicked hard in the balls? And they don't wince not because they don't have balls or because you missed. They don't react because it doesn't really hurt em! (And it's still another myth that any guy's balls are sensitive!) The same applies to women – some of them don’t have any vulnerable spots just because such is their anatomy. You never know beforehand. So in most cases it's better to fight fair.

Well, you can't hit kidneys directly, and they are not protected as many organs inside, and they have the sorrounding fat tissue that protects them. The pain feel after the hit is the one caused by the propagation of the first impact (has to pass through the lower back muscles and fat tissue)... So, the ovaries in a woman can't be hited directly, but impacts recived in the lower abdomen or genital area reflects in the zone, and according with the intensity is the damage... A really strong hit may cause what you described, but the same if a testicle is impacted and has a rupture in the neurovascular package that enervate/irrigate the testes... A hit in testes may cause a cell degeneration.. And have even later troubles for produce spermatozoids, or get useless, even if is something that apparently didn't hurt at all.

And women do not need both ovaries to reproduce, they can still reproduce with one (as many cases I've seen about ovarectomy one of them, or an hipoplasic ovari)... It is true that the clitoris in women is a really sensitive spot, as for men the glande in the penis though the size of the clitoris is smaller than the penis, it has more concenrtated the nervous enervated areas... And a clitoris is a penis, with similar structures (not exactly the same, but is same origin, but less evolved)...

I had one jigeiko practice when my partner tried to do a kaeshi do, he couldn't stop my men attack (and you know the sensation after you knowing that you did a nice men cut.. it was like flying all all beautiful) but he just after trying the kaeshi movement, he tried to hit my do, but hited my tare area, in the glande!... I just fall down and felt a horrible pain, couldnt stand and just began to laugh... I thought it was hilarious though painful, and he didn't meant to hit me there... But actually it felt worse than in been hited in the testes.. Not whole penis is really snesitive, but there are areas that are too.. If not, how do men get excited for having sex (apart our easyly way of think about sex every 60 seconds).

Sparv

23-06-2008, 06:13 AM

While we are sharing this kind of story...

Hit your balls hard enought and you'll have a mystical experience: a totally focused mind.

I remember very well those four minutes of my life. I was lying on the ground, eyes wide open, no pain, nothing but "shit". Like in "shit shit shit shit shit..."
It wasn't that I couldn't move, but that I couldn't think about moving. I couldn't past the "shit" phase.

Eliza

23-06-2008, 11:17 PM

I'm sure if you got your testicles stabbed, your mind would not be so calm at the moment of impact.

I do not practice kendo with the intent to "kill people," when that incident happened, my first reaction was a combination of pain and anger. The best way to describe how I felt in words was what I wrote in the previous post. I also did not blame everything on him, sure, his kamae was messed up, but sure at the same time maybe my zanshin was off.

I am also aware of budo trying to calm your mind and reduce violent behavior.

I totally agree with you. I got an ovary tsuki before and it hurts like hell. I think anger is a natural reaction to pain, and through kendo we learn to control our anger. But it sure is hard to control yourself when you get a tare tsuki! Ah hope that never happens again. Knock on wood.

Eliza

23-06-2008, 11:33 PM

my humble opinion:

letme remind you that in kendo when you have an accident it is becouse of YOUR LACK OF ZANSHIN.

You know sometimes, it happens so fast.... Like they just miss kote, trip, try to go back to chudan and you are running in after hitting men to close the distance......and it really hurts. Maybe you will understand if it happens to you. :ko:

Inner_Silence

24-06-2008, 06:08 AM

You know sometimes, it happens so fast.... Like they just miss kote, trip, try to go back to chudan and you are running in after hitting men to close the distance......and it really hurts. Maybe you will understand if it happens to you. :ko:

I think you missunderstood the point.
yes, accidents happens, I know it, I personally had all sort of accidents due directly to kendo practice, like broken fingers, tsuki to the lower parts, shinai hit in the face wich resoult in missing little part of a face bone and A LOT of bleeding... and of course the missing kote or do or tsuki on the troath or whatever but those isnt really an injury becouse it happens and its part of practice (had everything but the kendo foot for some reason I dont know). and yes, I know kendo hurts.
at the beginning, if whatever happened I felt all the way you describe, the anger, the pain and all that. but trough some years and a lot of accidents Ive learned that that this kind of accidents just "happens" and is never the fault of the other person, so, injuries have to be taken with (I think) a lot of humbility doing our best to not disrespect someone else, even thou that person wont even notice it. the only person you should be mad is yourself for not seeing it comming. now a days when something like that happens I just feel the pain that lasts a couple of minutes and thats it, all the other feelings like the anger and being pissed off I just dont feel it becouse I know that are inappropiate and disrespectfull for the other I just feel nothing at all in that matter. the only way I get pissed off is when I realize that the person has injured me on porpouse. other that, for me all keiko are moments of pure and absolute neutrality. even when I do keiko with people that I dislike the most, thats only outside the dojo in serious keiko i just feel nothing at all.

well at least thats for me, I really dont know if thats right or wrong, its just the way I think and feel about it.

JasonDC

24-06-2008, 06:15 AM

Inner_Silence

24-06-2008, 06:24 AM

So please, get some gear on!

Jason

I agree, personally I stopped complaining and I bought an elbow protector and SO WHAT! now I really dont care what people may say, sensei also knows that Im gonna use it anyway. I guess is a very occidental thinking but safety comes first. I really think that should be (or if it already exist) some kind of protector for girls and I really dont think that it would be so expensive... just a tought

besides I think that the original spirit of this thread wasnt to discuss kendo injuries.

Alison2805

24-06-2008, 06:33 AM

Getting hit in the breast... lack of zanshin, sloppy kendo, opportunity for humbleness... whatever. It seems like it's an accident waiting to happen. So, why not take some steps to protect yourself (females)?

Honestly, training hard in a contact sport with women is something that makes me uncomfortable. I know it's probably not popular to say, but I really feel like I need to level myself down a notch - especially with the do strike. This has nothing to do with the skill of my opponent, more a psychological issue on my part. After all, I was brought up to not hit women... hitting one in the breast with a stick just sounds so awful.

Any way, there are many protective options available to women, just not so much in terms of kendo gear. For sports equipment, this site has a page of reasonably priced items:

http://www.fitness-equipment.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2efitness%2de quipment%2ecom%2facatalog%2findex%2ehtml&WD=chest%20protector&PN=Online_Catalog_Women_s_Protective_Gear_489%2eht ml%23aCool_2dchoice_2dS32W#aCool_2dchoice_2dS32W

If that mess of a link doesn't work, try www.fitness-equipment.com (http://www.fitness-equipment.com) and type in "chest protector" in the search tool. Or use Google.

I guess the bottom line is that I would feel a lot better if the females I trained with were properly protected. After all, the standard bogu do is not really made to cover a women's chest. Also, toughness is a total non-issue from my point of view – I seriously doubt breasts get stronger from punishment. I mean, if tsuki’s to the lower abdomen were legal, I would wear the biggest, baddest cup I could find.

So please, get some gear on!

Jason

Bullsh%t. Im not going to go buy rediculous "chest protectors" and other rubbish so some guy feels better about not being able to do do correctly. Just learn to do it right in the first place instead of "leveling yourself down a notch".

If you dont feel comfortable about training with girls, thats your problem, not theirs.

turboyoshi

24-06-2008, 07:45 AM

Just learn to do it right in the first place instead of "leveling yourself down a notch".

I agree with this very strongly. If you're hitting in the wrong place, that's your fault. Nothing else to blame. You really think they should wear better protection or have better zanshin or whatever to make up for your lack of ability?

If I don't feel confident I can hit accurately, I don't tell the other guy to wear some extra protection. If I did feel confident and I screw up, I don't say "hey, your zanshin sucked so it's your fault." How about your awareness should have been good enough to strike precisely, regardless of what your opponent is doing.

You must accept the full responsibility for your own mistakes and to improve yourself to the level to not make them.

sean

Paburo

24-06-2008, 09:27 AM

Getting hit in the breast... lack of zanshin, sloppy kendo, opportunity for humbleness... whatever. It seems like it's an accident waiting to happen. So, why not take some steps to protect yourself (females)?

Honestly, training hard in a contact sport with women is something that makes me uncomfortable. I know it's probably not popular to say, but I really feel like I need to level myself down a notch - especially with the do strike. This has nothing to do with the skill of my opponent, more a psychological issue on my part. After all, I was brought up to not hit women... hitting one in the breast with a stick just sounds so awful.

Any way, there are many protective options available to women, just not so much in terms of kendo gear. For sports equipment, this site has a page of reasonably priced items:

http://www.fitness-equipment.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2efitness%2de quipment%2ecom%2facatalog%2findex%2ehtml&WD=chest%20protector&PN=Online_Catalog_Women_s_Protective_Gear_489%2eht ml%23aCool_2dchoice_2dS32W#aCool_2dchoice_2dS32W

If that mess of a link doesn't work, try www.fitness-equipment.com and type in "chest protector" in the search tool. Or use Google.

I guess the bottom line is that I would feel a lot better if the females I trained with were properly protected. After all, the standard bogu do is not really made to cover a women's chest. Also, toughness is a total non-issue from my point of view – I seriously doubt breasts get stronger from punishment. I mean, if tsuki’s to the lower abdomen were legal, I would wear the biggest, baddest cup I could find.

So please, get some gear on!

Jason

dude.... i reckon that maybe at 4kyuu level you havent fought a lot of strong kendoka wimmin.... otherwise that "level down a notch" nonsense would get your arse kicked in no time by some girls.

what youre saying is that just because sometimes we get hit in the elbow from a missed dou, we should all wear an elbow protector. that's sissy.

if we start wearing extra armour for all the missing blows we would end up with a robocop bogu in the end. even worse, youre suggesting girls should wear a lot of protection but we guys, since we are the macho man sex should go on with the standard bogu.... c'monnnnnnnn.

the solution is training harder to land all your cuts on spot. training harder not to be even there when your opponent cuts. training harder to get used to the sting of the ocasional missed blow and go on fighting like youre not made of crystal.

and if you hit a girl in the boob accidentally, just be nice and apologise. we all make mistakes and girls are understanding (well.... some of them are, lol).

cheers.

Tsunemori

24-06-2008, 11:54 AM

Me and my friends keep a track of all the bruises we give to each other. I don't think any of us really get angry about it, despite all the injuries Kendo risks, it's still a lot safer than most other full-contact martial arts. Last week someone tried a do cut on me, I knocked his shinai down (tried an otoshi) but it kept going and 'slapped' me in the owies. Yes it did hurt, but I was more amused than angry. I laughed and told him "that was tamago-uchi!"

So yes, hitting someone in the wrong spot is bad, but who really thinks they can go home from Kendo unscathed? I've hurt a lot of people by accident, it's part of learning, so in return I know I'll have to bear with others hurting me too.

JasonDC

24-06-2008, 11:09 PM

the solution is training harder to land all your cuts on spot. training harder not to be even there when your opponent cuts. training harder to get used to the sting of the ocasional missed blow and go on fighting like youre not made of crystal.

Paburo,

If I understand correctly, you are saying something along the lines that everyone needs to train hard at kendo. If that fails, then train harder. It makes me think you must be very talented, but it doesn't sound like practical advice.

As you noticed, I'm not high ranked. Therefore, it's likely that the person who needs to get better at kendo is not necessary the girl I'm training against, but me. Until I develop flawless technique under pressure, which will be never, I am a liability. That is why I say I "level myself down a notch", which is basically becoming less aggressive. To me, it's a form of courtesy. If there is weakness here, it's mine.

Regardless, the main point from my perspective is that do armor was not designed with women in mind. It's a matter of ergonomics. So, why not use some smarts and compensate? Also, I do not have any problem with guys wearing extra protection. In fact, I wear a wrist pad under kote, I have a thin men pad, and I wear tabi because my feet get tore up. I guess that makes me "sissy", but there is a lot of distance between wearing a padded sports bra (for a girl) and becoming "Robocop".

So, the thing that confuses me the most with your response is you're not a girl. Why do feel so strongly about my comment? I was simply saying I would feel a lot better with less risky protection. Female breasts are very sensitive, not a muscle, and therefore not something that gets stronger through trauma/damage. If it happens, I will definitely apologize, feel horrible, and accept any angry responses without judgment. I just think the situation could be mitigated easily with better protection.

Basically, I think what you are saying boils down to personal philosophy. I'm not a follower of Bushido, I just enjoy kendo. However, I do believe that mental and physical toughness is an essential part of the training. So, I can draw a line between following tradition and finding new ways to do things. I wouldn't blame you if you think it's people like me that are watering down the art. From my point of view, you sound youthful and hard-core. That being said, I have no problem with your attitude toward training, as long as you don’t expect me to think the same. It would be great to have you as a resource to train against so I could push myself 100%. Just don't expect me to take my elbow pads off or discourage women from using extra chest protection.

Jason

bobdonny

24-06-2008, 11:16 PM

Paburo,

If I understand correctly, you are saying something along the lines that everyone needs to train hard at kendo. If that fails, then train harder. It makes me think you must be very talented, but it doesn't sound like practical advice.

As you noticed, I'm not high ranked. Therefore, it's likely that the person who needs to get better at kendo is not necessary the girl I'm training against, but me. Until I develop flawless technique under pressure, which will be never, I am a liability. That is why I say I "level myself down a notch", which is basically becoming less aggressive. To me, it's a form of courtesy. If there is weakness here, it's mine.

Regardless, the main point from my perspective is that do armor was not designed with women in mind. It's a matter of ergonomics. So, why not use some smarts and compensate? Also, I do not have any problem with guys wearing extra protection. In fact, I wear a wrist pad under kote, I have a thin men pad, and I wear tabi because my feet get tore up. I guess that makes me "sissy", but there is a lot of distance between wearing a padded sports bra (for a girl) and becoming "Robocop".

So, the thing that confuses me the most with your response is you're not a girl. Why do feel so strongly about my comment? I was simply saying I would feel a lot better with less risky protection. Female breasts are very sensitive, not a muscle, and therefore not something that gets stronger through trauma/damage. If it happens, I will definitely apologize, feel horrible, and accept any angry responses without judgment. I just think the situation could be mitigated easily with better protection.

Basically, I think what you are saying boils down to personal philosophy. I'm not a follower of Bushido, I just enjoy kendo. However, I do believe that mental and physical toughness is an essential part of the training. So, I can draw a line between following tradition and finding new ways to do things. I wouldn't blame you if you think it's people like me that are watering down the art. From my point of view, you sound youthful and hard-core. That being said, I have no problem with your attitude toward training, as long as you don’t expect me to think the same. It would be great to have you as a resource to train against so I could push myself 100%. Just don't expect me to take my elbow pads off or discourage women from using extra chest protection.

Jason

Jason, If you cant hit a target accurately in kendo.... then dont try. Train harder / longer / more until you can.

I consider myself an ok kendo player but I still will not try for doh on my sensei's (5/6dan and up) unless they ask me to. Even to a degree I rarely do it in gikeiko.
The reason for this is that I am not 100% sure I will hit the target then I will not strike.

Regarding extra protection, You should not use it unless you "really" have to, and then when you are healed you should remove it immediatly.

Some of my kohai use wrist gaurds/protectors but I find it far more important to tell the individual to stop hitting hard, as opposed to getting myself used to it (but the OP still hits hard and the next person he hits may not have the wrist gaurd.)

Bottom, line if you think you could hurt someone... dont do it. Go home/to the dojo and practice till you know you wont.

I hang a doh in my conservatory and practice hitting it on my own to improve my accuracy and ensure I dont hurt people.

JasonDC

24-06-2008, 11:21 PM

Last week someone tried a do cut on me, I knocked his shinai down (tried an otoshi) but it kept going and 'slapped' me in the owies. Yes it did hurt, but I was more amused than angry. I laughed and told him "that was tamago-uchi!"

It's all fun and games until someone actually loses a testicle.

JasonDC

25-06-2008, 12:05 AM

Bottom, line if you think you could hurt someone... dont do it. Go home/to the dojo and practice till you know you wont.

Hello Bobdonny,

The control you develop in solitary or static training is important, without a doubt. I hear what you are saying, but the problem with this advice is that training by yourself is very different from training with a partner. Your adrenaline is up, you are frustrated and tired, the target is moving, and there is another weapon that is actually trying to hit back. Under these circumstances, mistakes will happen. That's what training in the dojo is for in my opinion - the opportunity to challenge yourself past your comfort zone against other people.

So, my original point was wear adequate protection. Obviously, I have my own idea about what is adequate. If my sensei insists that I take kote padding or tabi off, I will do my best to obey. If I feel that it is an unnecessary risk, I will politely explain my self if necessary. Hopefully, that will be enough. Of course, this wouldn't fly if you are training in a police dojo in Japan. For me, I know I will never be on that level so I adapt my training accordingly.

High ranking senseis are not practice dummies. I feel a similar sense of reservation when training with such individuals - in my mind, you don't try to beat them unless you are ready to leave the dojo. That's why it is so important to have a large pool of students to train with. Some will be newer, less skilled. Some will be much better and/or more demanding. Like in weight training, this range allows you to keep productive throughout a training session.

Am I missing the point?

Jason

H.Sandsleth

25-06-2008, 12:30 AM

Regardless, the main point from my perspective is that do armor was not designed with women in mind. It's a matter of ergonomics. So, why not use some smarts and compensate?

I was simply saying I would feel a lot better with less risky protection. Female breasts are very sensitive, not a muscle, and therefore not something that gets stronger through trauma/damage. If it happens, I will definitely apologize, feel horrible, and accept any angry responses without judgment. I just think the situation could be mitigated easily with better protection.

JasonI think you will have to look very long and hard to find something, if even anything that supports a notion of women getting breast damages from kendo. Asking people to wear more protection to protect your feelings is maybe a little much.

Tsunemori

25-06-2008, 12:42 AM

It's all fun and games until someone actually loses a testicle.
So what's your point? Don't do any fighting at all until I we can hit perfect cuts? You said yourself that that's never going to happen to anyone.

It's not like we're swinging about ninjer-style recklessly. We still exercise control as much as we can, it's just that we have to accept that people are going to get hurt.

I won't comment much since I'm still a low level myself, but I've always been encouraged to commit to every single attack I do, like that "ki-ken-tai-no-icchi" thing. So I give it my best regardless of who I'm fighting against, and I expect others to not hold back against me too.

jjcruiser

25-06-2008, 12:50 AM

Personally, I don't think that just because I can't hit a target perfectly doesn't mean I shouldn't try to hit it. That is practicing, after all. Don't even the very best players miss, sometimes? How much more than that, beginners, then?

In practice last week, I missed my sensei's do a little high (which he opened on purpose) and caught him under the arm. He said "lower!" I said "sorry!" and he nodded. That was that. Practicing swinging the shinai in the air isn't (at my level at least) the same as trying to hit a target.

JasonDC

25-06-2008, 01:05 AM

Asking people to wear more protection to protect your feelings is maybe a little much.

When you put it like that, I have to agree it doesn’t sound like a legitimate concern.

However, what if you were training against someone who was wearing a men without horizontal bars? I mean, you are supposed to strike the top of the men and tsuki the throat, which still has protection. It’s just that, well, the face is wide open. Seems like a unnecessary risk. When I spar against women whose do armor doesn’t cover up well, that is what is going through my mind – accident waiting to happen.

Any way, my original post was to give women a resource to check out if they wanted to wear something extra. I’m not telling anyone to do anything. Free will and all that.

Jason

JasonDC

25-06-2008, 01:10 AM

So what's your point? Don't do any fighting at all until I we can hit perfect cuts? You said yourself that that's never going to happen to anyone.

Actually, I was just making a joke.

For some reason, the situation you described is hillarious to me. I probably would have reacted in a similar way.

Gideon

25-06-2008, 01:11 AM

The control you develop in solitary or static training is important, without a doubt. I hear what you are saying, but the problem with this advice is that training by yourself is very different from training with a partner. Your adrenaline is up, you are frustrated and tired, the target is moving, and there is another weapon that is actually trying to hit back. Under these circumstances, mistakes will happen. That's what training in the dojo is for in my opinion - the opportunity to challenge yourself past your comfort zone against other people.

It's when you are tired/frustrated/angry/moving target you just can't seem to come close to that you have the best opportunity to improve - to make that 'as damn near perfect as my lowly a$$ self can make'. Sure your adrenaline is up - control it. Sure you are getting whacked - don't worry about it - welcome it. Personally, I've been working on maintaining center while cutting men against some of my higher ranked sempai. Invariably this means coming against a strong center and, if I'm not doing things right, a tsuki or suriage men. Every hit and self-impaling is an opportunity to figure out what I need to improve.

Plus, you may be surprised to find that the kihon you do outside of jigeiko somehow finds its way into jigeiko.

Of course, this wouldn't fly if you are training in a police dojo in Japan. For me, I know I will never be on that level so I adapt my training accordingly.

And in the process (I would guess) establish a ceiling for yourself - mentally. Depending on what you want out of kendo for yourself, this may be good enough, but what about your kohai who perhaps want to one day go train with the folks over at a Japanese Police Dojo who look to you as an example?

High ranking senseis are not practice dummies. I feel a similar sense of reservation when training with such individuals - in my mind, you don't try to beat them unless you are ready to leave the dojo. That's why it is so important to have a large pool of students to train with. Some will be newer, less skilled. Some will be much better and/or more demanding. Like in weight training, this range allows you to keep productive throughout a training session.

I obviosuly can't comment on what high ranking sensei think of themselves or their purpose in keiko. That said, I relish every opportunity to keiko with one. When I have that opportunity, I don't focus on 'beating' them per se, but instead, attempt to show them my absolute best kendo. If you don't do that, how on earth can you hope to improve?

Am I missing the point?
Do you really think you're the first person to give that 5/6 dan a bruise on their ribs because you gave a spirited do attempt that happened to land high? Do you think you'll be the last?

Inner_Silence

25-06-2008, 01:50 AM

[QUOTE=Paburo;337790]what youre saying is that just because sometimes we get hit in the elbow from a missed dou, we should all wear an elbow protector. that's sissy.

[QUOTE]

no. it all depends of the point of view. some people really dont care if someone says "thats sissy" or whatever, and think that safety goes first. personally I have broken 3 fingers of the same hand and like 6 bones in total during my life in accidents that some had to do with kendo, some have nothing to do with it (not to mention all the others injuries I had due to all the others MA that Ive practiced during my whole life), and BE SURE that Ill use extra protection for hand or elbow becouse I really dont want to make it worse. you see, a broken hand the way I did messed up mine can cause pain without any reason 10 years after the injury, and that would AT LEAST something to worry about. I really dont wanna stop doing kendo just becouse of that. SO for people like me hear someone says "thats sissy" its ridicoulus.

I think that in kendo accidents happens, and you have to decide wether to wear a protection or not. but you cant decide complaining about it. we all know that kendo hurts and if someone has a problem with that the door is wide open... we all know that sooner or later we will recieve a wrong hit and it will hurt, and thats just the way it is. you cant blame the other person for hitting you wrong, becouse, well first of all we all make mistakes and anyone can miss a hit, and second and most importantly is that it goes against the meaning of practice martial arts (in genneral) with someone else, wich is that you are humble enough to put your own safety in someone elses hands only to allow him to learn, in that way if thinking if that person misses the target is becouse YOU havent tought him well and since someone steps inside a dojo that person DECIDES to allow their dojo mates to "use" his body as a practice object so due to that train of thinking, getting hit is actually the responsability of the person that recieves the hit becouse of the decision made. and thats a fundamental concept in all martial arts.

Inner_Silence

25-06-2008, 02:05 AM

Jason, If you cant hit a target accurately in kendo.... then dont try. Train harder / longer / more until you can.

...

The reason for this is that I am not 100% sure I will hit the target then I will not strike.

...
.
it is possible to be 100% sure that any strike will actually hit correctly?
Ive seen 7th and 8th dan missing hits, it doesnt happen very often but it happens. its IMPOSSIBLE to be 100% certain of hitting correctly. in fact I dont think that there is a single (serious) kenshi in the world that can actually say "yes my hits are 100% perfect and accurate" in that case, following your train of tought we actually shouldnt even try to strike any hit at all.

so in your case HOW THA HELL are you gonna learn to strike doh if you already have decided (as you said) not to practice it properly? in that case you will never strike becouse it will never be perfect (following the way you think)

another question

please tell me how did you learn to be 100% accurate and how come you are not the actual world kendo champion if you are 100% acurate with men, tsuki and kote as you implicitely said

H.Sandsleth

25-06-2008, 02:06 AM

JasonDC:
If a breast gland is compressed, it can cause injury. But the mune of the do protects against hits coming from the front. So unless the do is ill fitting, there is little risk of anything harmful happening, since a stray cut will hit the side of a breast. The chest protectors you are referring to, are ment for sports where you for instance can get hit with a straight punch in the chest.

If you think that the do of someone is ill fitting to the degree that you think you can injure them, I suggest that you mention that to your sensei, in a discreet way, and see what he says.

bobdonny

25-06-2008, 02:19 AM

it is possible to be 100% sure that any strike will actually hit correctly?
Ive seen 7th and 8th dan missing hits, it doesnt happen very often but it happens. its IMPOSSIBLE to be 100% certain of hitting correctly. in fact I dont think that there is a single (serious) kenshi in the world that can actually say "yes my hits are 100% perfect and accurate" in that case, following your train of tought we actually shouldnt even try to strike any hit at all.

so in your case HOW THA HELL are you gonna learn to strike doh if you already have decided (as you said) not to practice it properly? in that case you will never strike becouse it will never be perfect (following the way you think)

another question

please tell me how did you learn to be 100% accurate and how come you are not the actual world kendo champion if you are 100% acurate with men, tsuki and kote as you implicitely said

Bad day at the office? :nervous:

I think most kenshi know what waza they are good at, what they are ok at and what they are not good at. They or their sensei can can decide what needs work on with kihon practice and what needs work on with gigeiko practice. Some sensei will request certain waza not to be performed until a certain level.

If you are not good at a particular waza its probably not a great idea to try and use it in gigeiko. Just cos your johnny 6th kyu, 13 years old and saw eiga's tsuki it doesnt mean you go and practice it with other 12 year old "till you get it right".

I do however find your tone quite hostile and I'm not really sure why that is! :confused:
I tried to word my reply for a 4th Kyu, maybe you missed something!

Chillax!:)

JasonDC

25-06-2008, 02:21 AM

It's when you are tired/frustrated/angry/moving target you just can't seem to come close to that you have the best opportunity to improve...

I totally agree with the spirit of your writing for both male and female students. I’m just suggesting to add a little more safety margin in with female chest protection.

...this may be good enough, but what about your kohai who perhaps want to one day go train with the folks over at a Japanese Police Dojo who look to you as an example?

You are right. I shouldn’t let my behavior limit the potential of others. Thank you for this reminder.

I relish every opportunity to keiko with [high ranking sensei]. When I have that opportunity, I... attempt to show them my absolute best kendo. If you don't do that, how on earth can you hope to improve?

I guess it depends on the situation. For example, I tried to go all out (throwing real strikes and actively trying to defeat technique) on a high ranked aikido instructor before because, at heart, I share your point of view. He warned me that if I did it again, I would get hurt because he would have to change his technique. I assume he meant that I didn’t have the ukemanship to deal. Different martial art, but I guess his words had a big impact on me. Maybe I need to reevaluate.

Do you really think you're the first person to give that 5/6 dan a bruise on their ribs because you gave a spirited do attempt that happened to land high?
God, I hope not.

bobdonny

25-06-2008, 02:24 AM

Hello Bobdonny,

The control you develop in solitary or static training is important, without a doubt. I hear what you are saying, but the problem with this advice is that training by yourself is very different from training with a partner.

Am I missing the point?

Jason

I agree, but until you are confident to go into a dojo and not hurt any other motodaichi then you really shouldnt hit them.

Frankly its a priviledge to have somebody to practice with... you shouldn't underestimate that and you certainly shouldn't let yourself get into a position where you can hurt them.

Also I suppose your sensei / sempai shouldn't have let either of ye get into a position where either of ye will hurt or become hurt.

Inner_Silence

25-06-2008, 02:25 AM

Bullsh%t. Im not going to go buy rediculous "chest protectors" and other rubbish so some guy feels better about not being able to do do correctly. Just learn to do it right in the first place instead of "leveling yourself down a notch".

If you dont feel comfortable about training with girls, thats your problem, not theirs.

ali I really dont think thats the point.
. the thing is that thinking that in some point everyone will strike properly it will never happeneven if we are all 8th dan or whatever. you can only think in reduce the posibility of getting injured by ìmproving the practice of our kendo but sooner or later we WILL recieve a missing hit of someone and it WILL hurt. and that, as I said had nothing to do with leveling anything at all really. it has to do with that what I just said before, we can wether use or not protective gear, but thats a personal desicion. what we cant choose is to realize that people are not perfect and we all make mistakes. besides I personally cant blame someone else of hitting me wrong becouse I miss some strikes too, all I can do is try not to and try to do my best kendo always but I personally also make mistakes.

Inner_Silence

25-06-2008, 02:32 AM

...besides that "leveling" thing is completely another subject and, I think, for another thread

JasonDC

25-06-2008, 02:39 AM

If a breast gland is compressed, it can cause injury. But the mune of the do protects against hits coming from the front. So unless the do is ill fitting, there is little risk of anything harmful happening, since a stray cut will hit the side of a breast.

Interesting. I'm not a doctor, so you sound pretty convincing. Still, I have that emotional hang up to get over.

The chest protectors you are referring to, are ment for sports where you for instance can get hit with a straight punch in the chest.

That's a better point, something I didn't consider. Even so, it has to be better than nothing, right?

If you think that the do of someone is ill fitting to the degree that you think you can injure them, I suggest that you mention that to your sensei, in a discreet way, and see what he says.
Hm... I'm not sure that I would do that. I mean, I would rather mention it directly to the student, and also ask her if she had any suggestions for me in return. Then again, this might be an opportunity for her to feel harrassed if she is keyed to take offense for some reason (Alison).

I didn't think this was really such a big deal. Are we making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be? What do the female kendoka think? Is it that wrong?

bobdonny

25-06-2008, 02:43 AM

Are we making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be?
Best thing you've said so far! :)
Stay quiet, practice big men and for gods sake dont give another student advice... espcially not in the dojo.

JasonDC

25-06-2008, 02:48 AM

Best thing you've said so far! :)
Stay quiet, practice big men and for gods sake dont give another student advice... espcially not in the dojo.

I like debating, asking questions, challenging opinions... all for the sake of mutal growth and understanding. But you know, I think you are right in this case. It's a no-win situation.

JasonDC

25-06-2008, 02:50 AM

...besides that "leveling" thing is completely another subject and, I think, for another thread

I'll pass, thank you very much.

Inner_Silence

25-06-2008, 02:51 AM

Bad day at the office? :nervous: !:)

no, is simply that your speech had no sense at all really, please do not be offended, but it was written with too many logical mistakes.

I think most kenshi know what waza they are good at, what they are ok at and what they are not good at. They or their sensei can can decide what needs work on with kihon practice and what needs work on with gigeiko practice. Some sensei will request certain waza not to be performed until a certain level.

If you are not good at a particular waza its probably not a great idea to try and use it in gigeiko. Just cos your johnny 6th kyu, 13 years old and saw eiga's tsuki it doesnt mean you go and practice it with other 12 year old "till you get it right".

I do however find your tone quite hostile and I'm not really sure why that is! :confused:
I tried to word my reply for a 4th Kyu, maybe you missed something!

Chillax!:)

also no, when there is a waza that you dont know and you feel like practice in, go ahead, but you have to practice it counting that probably wont work. as an example john and bob, both always miss kaeshi do.
john decided to practice it but doing it very carefully so he wont hurt his dojo mate even if he misses the hit (yes you can actually strike without using all your strenght) sometimes john might miss a hit and actually hurt someone but since he was using his common sense the one or two times that he did it wrong he just putted a little bruise in to someone else with no intention of it at all, all the other times he did it so carefully that he really didnt hurted noone.
bob decided not to practice it becouse he "could" notice he doesnt say he "will" hurt someone
two years later bob and john find each other in a tournament and john kaeshi-dou his arse winning the match espectacularily.

with this Im not saying that "the thing that matters is winning" Im saying that with common sense you can actually practice a waza without hurting anyone.
personaly I really like de-kote and Ive been practice it every time I can (almost every practice in every keiko) for the last 3 years (thats a lot) and yes Ive missed lots of kote, but Ive never hurted anyone becouse I do it carefully. maybe in 5 more years Ill really learn how to do it.

Inner_Silence

25-06-2008, 02:57 AM

besides
that 13 yo kid really is a false analogy, becouse we are not that age and we know that we can do and what we cant. 13 yo kids have a completely diferent training than the one we have.

Inner_Silence

25-06-2008, 03:03 AM

I agree, but until you are confident to go into a dojo and not hurt any other motodaichi then you really shouldnt hit them.

Frankly its a priviledge to have somebody to practice with... you shouldn't underestimate that and you certainly shouldn't let yourself get into a position where you can hurt them.

Also I suppose your sensei / sempai shouldn't have let either of ye get into a position where either of ye will hurt or become hurt.

I agree, thats why people should practice carefully with their motodachi, making sure not to hurt him. and thats whi people shouldnt disrestpect their motodachi by not practice with them.

I imagine that I would really get mad if I saty some of my dojo mates (most of them younger kendo speaking than me) "lets practice kaeshi do, Ill be your motodachi and I ll try to help you wih that" and he says "no I wont practice with you becouse Im not confident with that hit and I might hurt you"

Ill inmediately would think "whay do you think Im breakable??!!!!!!"

bobdonny

25-06-2008, 03:15 AM

Let me break it down a bit for you.
no, is simply that your speech had no sense at all really, please do not be offended, but it was written with too many logical mistakes.
Care to explain what "speech written with too many logical mistakes" is? Oh wait, I just spotted an example. :)

also no, when there is a waza that you dont know and you feel like practice in, go ahead, but you have to practice it counting that probably wont work.

Ya that’s called waza keiko, not gigeiko

as an example john and bob, both always miss kaeshi do.

How was their men?

john decided to practice it but doing it very carefully so he wont hurt his dojo mate even if he misses the hit (yes you can actually strike without using all your strenght) sometimes john might miss a hit and actually hurt someone but since he was using his common sense the one or two times that he did it wrong he just putted a little bruise in to someone else with no intention of it at all, all the other times he did it so carefully that he really didnt hurted noone.

Excellent if John began practicing this slowly with a partner in waza keiko or kihon keiko and when he felt a bit more confident he progressed to practising it in gigeiko until he got super at it.

bob decided not to practice it becouse he "could" notice he doesnt say he "will" hurt someone
I don’t really understand this? Maybe a logical mistake?

two years later bob and john find each other in a tournament and john kaeshi-dou his arse winning the match espectacularily.
Good for John! All the correct and proper practice paid off and John didn’t hurt anyone over the years :)

with this Im not saying that "the thing that matters is winning" Im saying that with common sense you can actually practice a waza without hurting anyone.
Hmmm practiceing a waza…. Like waza keiko? We are in agreement here.

personaly I really like de-kote and Ive been practice it every time I can (almost every practice in every keiko) for the last 3 years (thats a lot) and yes Ive missed lots of kote, but Ive never hurted anyone becouse I do it carefully. maybe in 5 more years Ill really learn how to do it.
Super good for you.
I presume in your normal class you do waza keiko before you jump into gigeiko? Great! :)

H.Sandsleth

25-06-2008, 03:40 AM

Hm... I'm not sure that I would do that. I mean, I would rather mention it directly to the student, and also ask her if she had any suggestions for me in return. Then again, this might be an opportunity for her to feel harrassed if she is keyed to take offense for some reason (Alison).

Aksing her for suggestions is somewhat like giving her the responsibility to solve something that could not be her problem to begin with..which is something the sensei might tell you. If there actually is a problem with ill fitting gear, it is better that he discusses it with her as the one in charge, than you. imho.

Alison2805

25-06-2008, 04:24 AM

I agree, the sensei is a better person to judge if gear needs to be adjusted.

The point I was trying to make (you DID ask for a womans opion afterall JasonDC, so dont get miffed when you get one) that you and InnerSilence seem to have missed, is that a do is adequate protection if not tied too low (and girls figure that out in the first week in bogu). I dont have a small chest, but in the last 3 years I would have only ever recieved less than 5 hits to the breast. Most missed cuts will hit my armpit or side, and that doesnt happen very often either. The only time it happens is with beginners, or when I am raising my arms too high at the wrong time.

This is a TOTALLY different scenario to kote and men protectors - these areas get hit constantly. I use an elbow protector when my elbow has been badly bruised (hasnt happened in a long time), and I currently use a heel protector as I bruised the bone a few months ago and it still gives me trouble. Once that is healed I wont use it anymore.

Protectors are not "sissy" Paburo, although I agreed with everything else you said!

The point in the beginning was Jason- if you are hurting someone, it is something YOU are doing. Fix it. Dont expect the other person to change what they are doing to compensate for your lack of ability.

Getting bad hits is part and parcel of learning kendo. I dont mind bruises here and there, its not a big deal.

Compared to football/soccer/judo/karate/gymnastics/netball.. pretty much any sport I can think of... kendo has an extremely low injury rate, even if everyone was merrily tsukiing everyone.

Eliza

25-06-2008, 05:13 AM

I think you missunderstood the point.
yes, accidents happens, I know it, I personally had all sort of accidents due directly to kendo practice, like broken fingers, tsuki to the lower parts, shinai hit in the face wich resoult in missing little part of a face bone and A LOT of bleeding... and of course the missing kote or do or tsuki on the troath or whatever but those isnt really an injury becouse it happens and its part of practice (had everything but the kendo foot for some reason I dont know). and yes, I know kendo hurts.

I think/hope I understand you. I wasn't talking about injuries in general, I was talking specifically about tare tsuki. I apologize for sounding like I was belittling your blood sweat and tears that have gone into improving. I am just saying until you experience a tare tsuki, it is really hard to comprehend the rage that results.

I totally agree with you about the second part.:smiley:

Inner_Silence

25-06-2008, 05:57 AM

I think/hope I understand you. I wasn't talking about injuries in general, I was talking specifically about tare tsuki. I apologize for sounding like I was belittling your blood sweat and tears that have gone into improving. I am just saying until you experience a tare tsuki, it is really hard to comprehend the rage that results.

I totally agree with you about the second part.:smiley:

yeah tare tsuki hurts to boys and girls... it happems ... and I had a tare tsuki! I really dont wanna talk about it!!! hahahaha!!!

---------------------

anyway, I think we are missing the point here anyways. sorry about that. ali is right that its a girls stuff...

JasonDC

25-06-2008, 06:51 AM

Sandsleth,

Yes, I will drink the Kool-Aid. If there is an issue, I go tell sensei. I mean, I could say something and inadvertently start a situation. A sensei could say the same thing and suddenly it's wisdom. Roger.

Alison,

So you are saying bogu is good enough for girls if worn correctly. Okay, I'm not going to argue with you. Thank you for your comment.

Also, you say that if I hurt someone in sparring, it's my fault. I've heard different opinions on this, but okay. I haven't actually hurt anyone yet that I know of, but I will be prepared to take the blame if it happens.

In the mean time, I will "fix" myself... I assume you mean lots of hard training. Hopefully, I wont bust someone's tit in the process.

Jason

turboyoshi

25-06-2008, 08:25 AM

Also, you say that if I hurt someone in sparring, it's my fault.

This is precisely correct. If you go to strike someone, and you miss, there is no one else to blame. This is what I meant when I suggested people need to assume full responsibility for their own mistakes. Instead of trying to blame it on your opponent for: doing something unexpected, or being more skilled or being a female or not being better protected or any other reason. All those things are excuses that people use to try and absolve themselves of some of the responsibility for their own mistake.

Look at these excuses:
my opponent did something unexpected should mean: I failed to realize my opponent's real intension and counter it properly.
the opponent is more skilled = i need more practice.
the opponent is female = i'm a dumbass :)
... you get the point, I hope.

American culture has a way of distributing blame so no one person has to feel too bad. It's not the kendo way.

No one is saying you need to be perfect. No one expects that. However, don't excuse yourself from working towards perfection by redirecting attention to your opponent's errors. Every excuse you make, is just another way of avoiding improving on your own flaws.

sean

JasonDC

25-06-2008, 09:02 AM

Hello Sean,

You know, I missed your original response to my first post. Which is a shame, because your pic is so cool. And, well, because it's nice to get lectured to and ragged on.

If you go to strike someone, and you miss, there is no one else to blame. This is what I meant when I suggested people need to assume full responsibility for their own mistakes.

I think there is a misunderstanding here - I'm not trying to make excuses with my skill level or behaviour. I was trying to offer reasons why additional protection for a sensitive female area seemed logical.

Obviously, things did not go so well. WOFT, this is a DFH.*

American culture has a way of distributing blame so no one person has to feel too bad. It's not the kendo way.

Not my fault that America is so screwed up. Why wont anyone believe me? Oh, whoa is me.**

No one is saying you need to be perfect. No one expects that.

Actually, bobdonny may disagree. But seriously, I get the point. I'm not perfect, so if I screw up it's not my fault. Thanks for the awesome advice.***

Before you flip, let me give you the answer key...
*"Waste of f#cking time" and "Dead f#cking horse"
**I'm joking
***I'm joking, again

jjcruiser

25-06-2008, 11:04 AM

Obviously, things did not go so well. WOFT, this is a DFH.*

Crass sarcasm is impolite and was particularly unwarranted here.

bobdonny

25-06-2008, 04:03 PM

Hey Jason, My final thought.

I really, really, really wish you were in my dojo :)

Paburo

25-06-2008, 06:57 PM

Protectors are not "sissy" Paburo, although I agreed with everything else you said!

Ali and Inner, let me quote myself again:

"what youre saying is that just because sometimes we get hit in the elbow from a missed dou, we should all wear an elbow protector. that's sissy."

i meant its sissy to say and imply that we should wear more protection just because sometimes we get hit in the elbow, arm, shoulder, hip, breast, neck or whatever. aww c'mon. bear the sting for a while and keep training!

also, i think it's sissy to say: "well, until i learn to strike correctly and on spot ppl should wear more protection". lol. be a *man* and take responsability of your own missed cuts. i think knowing that we might leave a bruise on someone (specially a girl) is a very good motive and reason to try your hardest NOT to miss. at least personally when i'm keikoing with a girl, it gives me that extra edge thought of **'i MUST' land all of my cuts on spot... i dont want to bruise her or leave a shinai mark on her delicate skin.... :D (....and have to listen to her whine for hourse later... :D lol just kiddinnnnnnng)**

now, i have nothing against justified protections that prevent us from further injuries. i personally use a heel protector cause i screwed it up years ago.

so inner_suave, chill! you took it the wrong way mate :D

bobdonny

25-06-2008, 09:15 PM

.......personally when i'm keikoing with a girl, .......

Why does that sound so Dirty? :)

JasonDC

25-06-2008, 10:39 PM

Hey Jason, My final thought.

I really, really, really wish you were in my dojo :)

Dude, best thing you've said so far - my thought exactly.