Uchi through.....

[emitbrownne]

Hi,
Its a bit hard to explain how I do what I do without demonstration but I'll do my best.

I do not know why but I have started doing this, but if anyone can tell me if its allowed... encouraged/discouraged/frowned upon/illegal I would love to know.

My habit is to deliver a Men cut (unsuccessful) move through and turn before coming to a stop... turning mid flight if you will. If my oponent is facing me I will strike like a Hiki-men and move backwards. If my opponent is not facing then I move to a good cover distance. I don't do it all of the time so please dont black ball me.

I was pulled up on this by a senior Kendoka, and I bow to his years of experience...
I was just wondering.... :)

[Hongsermeier]

Like you said a little hard to picture. From what I'm thinking I don't see a problem. There are a lot of questions. Is the men missed on purpose? What is footwork like? :cross_eye

[Hai_hai]

I'll give my short opinion on this based on what I have been taught.
After the men cut, one moves through (as you call it) a couple of tsudi ashi steps quickly so that you will be away from your opponent, and then turn around.

It sounds like (from your written description) that your "turning around mid-flight" means you are turning after you have passed your opponent by less than 1 meter. If that's the case, then I think you are turning around too early. I say this because I get reprimanded for turning around too early.

[Hai_hai]

tsugi ashi

[nodachi]

I will defer to people with more experience, but isn't turning around too early going to ruin your zanshin?

and I thought it was suri ashi. (not trying to be critical)

[Hongsermeier]

If the men was missed, there is no zanshin. Sounds like a slightly modified Taiatai men (spelling?) :cross_eye

[ben]

It shows that you don't believe your men was effective.

b

[kendomushi]

Is this something you do in reaction to what you believe to be a missed men, or something you intend to do from the first?

[emitbrownne]

The MEN is missed/parried/blocked, so then I turn: sometimes as I am passing my opponent, and sometimes a step after.
My momentum still carries me in the original direction, so now I'm travelling backwards.
I am looking for a target as I move back... so If my opponent is facing me and Men Kote or Doh is available I take it. (its mostly men, as people tend to turn with a crude form of Chudan-no-kamae)

If no target has presented itself then I continue to move back until I can safely stop and get correct distance for the next cut.

again please note I am not advocating this move... I just want to know if I should definately stop it.

I will not see my Sensei (s) for two weeks now because everyone is going to the World Kendo championships..and I cant go :( .. so anyone advice given, will be welcomed. Hopefully this will stop two weeks of wrong kendo programming (if it is wrong ?!?).

Thanks

[John W]

I don't know about you, but when I fight a senior kendoka I make damn sure that if my cut is not successful I pass through like a bolt of lightning to avoid the aftermath of hanging around too close to them.

Your zanshin has to be constantly peaking to pull off a technique like that and chances are your opponent will have an easier time dispatching you because you are moving backwards and they are moving forward with seme. And if they "spook" you and you lose centre beware!

Against a beginner- sure you could pull off this technique but against a more senior kendoka? -good luck!:)

[emitbrownne]

It is against senior Kendoka that I seem to do it on the most, as the Junior take too long to turn around.
Generally If I am in Chudan as they move towards me when I'm going back, I can hold centre until my momentum runs out (or I slam on the brakes and bound forward), and (only tried once.. and messed it up a bit) Tsuki'd.

sorry for the excessive brackets.......... I've been a programmer for too long :)

[Nishi]

I have fenced you many times and i think i know the move your talking about, but its not for me to comment.

From my own experience, it comes from not driving forward to the opponent, yet on closing the distance, the person being attacked remains in place, while the attacker makes all the effort to move around while still facing his opponent.

I would say this is incorrect. The attacker should be training to cut straight through the opponents position. If the cut misses then tai-atari is next, and mabye hiki-waza from there. Somtimes the cut is good, and there i still difficulty passing through your opponents position, however the wedge shape that the shoulders and fists make after a well formed cut assists in this "passing through".

Strong and correct okuri-ashi is needed, and this means hips.

[Steve]

You should get distance between you and your opponent before stiking.

1) if your moving past and you turn "mid-flight", you will be facing/turning in an awkward direction relative to your momentum's direction. Long Story Short, loss of balance and control is guaranteed. A quick shove by your aite and you're going to have a nasty fall, or in the least give them a suki. To stay balanced you must keep your hips square with your shoulders and feet. keep that in mind next time you try your quick turn, and note the position you are in.

2) Trying a hiki waza during this quick turn may result in you hitting your opponent improperly ,ie not on the padded part of the men. ouch!

3) You're most likely going to have improper footwork during your hiki waza attempt.

Thats my 2 cents.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Go straight.

[kendomushi]

I'd agree with all the comments so far.
Foot work will be a problem, corrent technique will be a problem, timing will be a problem.
Remember, your opponent cannot legally strike at you from behind, so the best thing to do is get yourself to the correct distance and turn strongly centered back at him.
Attacks going forward are always deemed better kendo than those goinb backwards as well. I'd make every effort to stop what you are doing now and save the hiki techniques for the odd good chance from tsubazeriai.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by kendomushi
Remember, your opponent cannot legally strike at you from behind
Really? Can you point me to the section of the rules which prohibits this?

[Nishi]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

Really? Can you point me to the section of the rules which prohibits this?

Are you serious Neil? Its not in the rule book? Or is it just a gentlemens agreement? Or are you pulling my kodachi?

[emitbrownne]

Thanks y'all.. I shall attempt to bin my crazy move.

There will be no going around now... only through.... get correct distance.....

thanks again

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Nishi


Are you serious Neil? Its not in the rule book? Or is it just a gentlemens agreement? Or are you pulling my kodachi?
My sensei's opinion has always been that it's not nice but you have to watch for it - get clear and turn around quick. However several people have mentioned that they thought it was illegal, which resulted in my question. It was a serious question, because I can't find it in the rules. It may be an unwritten rule, I don't know.

Beginners should be aware that this is a huge attack chance for them. Most mudansha turn badly, with no zanshin. Most of their opponents wait politely for them to turn around and get set. You don't have to hit from behind, just wait until they're most of the way around - the judges will reward you for understanding the opportunity.

[Karaken]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

My sensei's opinion has always been that it's not nice but you have to watch for it - get clear and turn around quick. However several people have mentioned that they thought it was illegal, which resulted in my question. It was a serious question, because I can't find it in the rules. It may be an unwritten rule, I don't know.

Beginners should be aware that this is a huge attack chance for them. Most mudansha turn badly, with no zanshin. Most of their opponents wait politely for them to turn around and get set. You don't have to hit from behind, just wait until they're most of the way around - the judges will reward you for understanding the opportunity.

Most higher ranking guys won't do this becasue they consider this ungentlemen like behavior. Another example is hitting a guy who dropped his shinai, at lower rank they might try but during one Hachidan tournament, I saw one just standing there waiting till the other guy picks up his shinai.

Having said that my sensei informed me that there's no rule against it and he's seen it done many times. After all, you do get killed if you're hit from behind. You may not get any respect from your peers but YES you can get the point. BTW, some simpan may not give you the point. Afterall, judging is very subjective thing.

Center - from behind too?

[sminki]

This has to do with the fallen opponent situation. I have read that years ago the All Japan Kendo Fed actually had a dispute over whether dropping shinai or falling had to be a full point as opposed to a hansoku/half point. When they asked one of the 9 dan sensei, he supposedly replied by saying "bushi no jihi" meaning "warrior's mercy". I think this also kinda applies to the hitting from behind thing - that it is ungentlemanly or un-budo practitioner-like. Plus, getting hit on the back of the head or any lesser-padded part of men hurts like hell. I make a point of waiting until my opponent has nearly squarely facing me (so that his guards are still not fully up, but he is definitely almost squared away facing me) to strike in these cases. I guess it may not be illegal to strike someone from behind since in a life-or-death situations, there is no "gentleman/bushi" issue.

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by emitbrownne
The MEN is missed/parried/blocked, ...

again please note I am not advocating this move... I just want to know if I should definately stop it.
Thanks

Stop it !

Even if you miss the men you should still go through all the way witout turning, if anything it shows that you were committed to the attempt (even if it failed) and you are displaying zan-shin.

Then turn around, come into your correct distancee, set it up and try again.

Richard

[kendomushi]

In each of the few instances I've seen a strike from the rear, it has resulted in hansoku for the attacker. Might just be a gentleman's agreement here, but if the men is correctly struck on the forward part above the mengane, how can you do this from behind?

[John W]

I recall several times during keiko when I was cut on the men just as I was half way through my turn with my shinai dropped- for lack of zanshin which is fair enough, (and better still - I don't do that anymore!) .But yeah... at a shiai or grading it does look a tad "un- gentleman like". I suppose it will come down to the timing of the cut.

Dropping the shinai, cutting someone half way through thier turn, who is judging at the time:confused: It may well be subjective. I mean when I cut someone I want that cut to be pure, clean and earned rather than some cheap, nasty cut.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by John W
Dropping the shinai, cutting someone half way through thier turn, who is judging at the time:confused: It may well be subjective. I mean when I cut someone I want that cut to be pure, clean and earned rather than some cheap, nasty cut.
Cutting someone who is halfway (or let's say most of the way to be nice) through their turn is more earned than jumping in from the outside and hoping your shot lands, which is the usual attempt we see at an ikkyu grading. It shows you understood a basic attack chance and executed. When that happens at an ikkyu grading, you can see all the judges nod in unison, look down at their pads and draw a circle.

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Karaken


Most higher ranking guys won't do this becasue they consider this ungentlemen like behavior. Another example is hitting a guy who dropped his shinai, at lower rank they might try but during one Hachidan tournament, I saw one just standing there waiting till the other guy picks up his shinai.

Having said that my sensei informed me that there's no rule against it and he's seen it done many times. After all, you do get killed if you're hit from behind. You may not get any respect from your peers but YES you can get the point. BTW, some simpan may not give you the point. Afterall, judging is very subjective thing.



Yup.. There is no rule against hitting a guy who has just dropped his/her shinai or after he/she has fallen down. Against friends, it is a "gentlemens agreement". But in a tournament though, anything goes I suppose. I've hit a person who dropped a shinai once and my sensei gave me a men. Reasoning? The guy shouldn't have dropped his shinai in the first place. We later found out that his grip on the shinai was wrong.

Tim

[Nishi]

Originally posted by Kendoka

Even if you miss the men you should still go through all the way witout turning, if anything it shows that you were committed to the attempt (even if it failed) and you are displaying zan-shin.

Its difficult to advice moving through when you have missed a cut. IMHO you should be crashing (tai-atari) if you have missed your cut (most of the time). The crash of bodies is a display of forward motion as well and this will provide enough evidence that you are moving forward. If i attacked men unsuccessfully and even managed to get through my opponents position, i would only be creating a chance for my opponent to retaliate by giving my back. If the attack was successful then its a different kettle of fish.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Move through (or taiatari if that's the way it was going) the same whether you succeed or not. For one thing, your personal analysis of whether you succeed or not doesn't matter - it's up to the judges to decide. So you have to move through in such a way as not to provide an opening no matter what. You can't have this attitude of "I just got a point so I'm safe". Another reason for moving the same is that if you get in the habit of changing your action based on whether you hit or not, you will create openings. I see this all the time in beginners - they miss, so they immediately stop moving and drop their arms. Then I hit them.

[Nishi]

Point of interest.....over the weekend i took some time to watch competitors practising, the usual kihon. I noticed somthing interesting, when a men cut was executed in kirikaishi the hands were immidiatley pulled down for the impact of tai-atari, which is fair enough as it is a coreographed exercise. However when i saw single men-uchi done (where the receiver graciously side-steps) the hands, where still pulled down for the impact of "potential" tai-atari, although they raced through without stopping.

I watched this being done by many countries present, and this includes the japanese demonstration for the queen. They would strike men, and wether the opponent remained or not, after the cut the hands dropped for impact as they cut through.

Personally i have been taught to hold the shinai in tenouchi will moving through, but it raised the question with me over the weekend, when do the hands actually drop for impact?

[Neil Gendzwill]

We teach to keep them out until it's apparent there will be an impact, then move them down. Many beginners pull them back in, which is a mistake and an opening. If you pull them down when going through, you're going to have a job "selling" the point to the judges.

[suzume]

looks a lot like what kids do here when they practice fast. i usually tell them to pass through without worrying about the multiple strikes. multiple strikes are ok if you have the proper footwork, the propor maai etc, and it does not seem to be the case for you.

if you want to correct yourself, think about men tai atari hiki men and go for it. it is probably better to focus on proper wasa that on things you are not sure. when you feel confortable with the wasa you can work something for yourself.

[James]

I'd agree with all the comments so far.

Sooner or later you're gonna end up on your ass.

[richard haly]

I may have missed something here, but the original description of going for men, missing, getting half-way through, turning and striking a hiki-men sounds to me like what is called a "kaere men," which is to say a "turning men." I never heard about anything wrong with it and have seen it required for ikkyu tests in Hokkaido.

Or is this something else?

[Nishi]

Originally posted by richard haly
sounds to me like what is called a "kaere men," which is to say a "turning men."

We practise this men from time to time, but i have always known it as hiki-men. After a men cut motodachi can (and usually do) prevent you from passing and step into you (tai-atari) and push you at a 45 degree angle, which turns the attacker slightly as well as knocking them back, the attacker strikes men again on the way out.

This is done the same as hiki men, and i was unaware of the name of it.

Cheers!