Tsuki is that bad?

[tgsfg]

Today our practice was cancelled, and I made the trip to visit the first dojo I've ever attended. During jigeiko, I attempted a tsuki (one handed). I was pulled over by the sensei and he basically said "Get out!" I didn't know what pissed him at first, so I just said, "ok" and was about to walk outside. I didn't want any arguments, but he went onto explain that the tsuki was the reason why he was upset. I just said, "I'm sorry, I didn't know you had a specific rule about tsukis here." I thought it would be over, but he went on to call me a "thug" and an asshole (it doesn't sound as bad in Korean, but that's basically what he said). I again apologized and explained that I was recently taught tsuki and was practing it a bit. He told me to keep "that crap" in my dojo and not in his. All this is fine, I understand why he could be upset about it. It's what he started to say afterwards that really started to annoy me a bit.

First: He said something like, "Since I was your first sensei, I'm like your 'only' sensei. The primary sensei. When someone asks you who your sensei is, you need to tell them MY name. I've taught you till 4kyu after all! It's like this, you only have one dad and one mom. Not five or six!"
I don't know, I don't really consider my 1st grade teacher to be the great sage of my life. I was only in this dojo for about five months, and trained till I was 7kyu.
Second: "I'm a tough mother fucker. When I was a part of USKU, I was like the top dog! Everyone is scared of me, and respects me!"
I'm not going to assume that he's talking out of his ass on this one. For all I know, he really was the top sensei of USKU. I just don't like the general tone he gave about USKU and all that. Which was, "I left because I'm too good." USKU isn't IKF, but we all still do kendo. I don't have USKU pride either. I also don't like senseis of any martial arts bragging about great accomplishments, yet alone bragging about getting mad at people all the time or something.
Third: "Doing tsuki makes you an asshole. You're being a thug. What's the point of tsuki? Anyone can just reach over and do tsuki, but then it wouldn't be good kendo. Besides that, one handed tsuki is the worst! Watch all the matches, no one does one handed. I taught this one 4 dan how to do jodan. When he tried it on me, I gave him a hard tsuki. Doing jodan like that makes you an asshole. I regret teaching him jodan."
I'll let you guys evaluate that one.
Fourth: You guys will love this one...
"I don't know exactly why you left my dojo, but that doesn't really matter. It's not good to visit other dojos, or go from one dojo to another dojo. People who visit other dojos never turn out to be good kendokas. They always drop out like flies. Those people that visit those Japanese dojos and what not."

All this rant, because I attempted a tsuki! He even said, "You think you're tough with that tsuki? Want me to gear up and go a round with me?"
The person I attempted the tsuki on was not a sempai, but a kohai. I'm shodan and my sensei thought it appropriate for me to start practicing tsuki.
I apologized countless times that I didn't know the tsuki would be an offensive gesture and that I'm really sorry for my ignorance. To this he responded, "You're stupid for not being able to notice I'm that kind of a man. You should've known."
Everything I can understand and turn the other cheek on, but I found that last comment to be very hard to swallow. In the end I just bowed and went on. Did more jigeiko and some shiai keiko in which the sensei was the only ref. I must say, I was proud of my old dojomate's improvement, but more proud that I managed to beat them. The final thing though after that, the sensei said something like this to his student, "If the conditions were different (I don't know if he meant the dojo or what not) you wouldn't have gotten hit."
Basically he said, "[tgsfg] got lucky."

Sorry about this long and mundane post. I just needed to vent a bit, because I thought he went overboard. I'm especially annoyed because I still have respect for this man.

[Cool Cat]

Tsuki can be a tricky subject at times. It is an advanced technique which in some cases shouldn't be used on your sensei unless he doesn't mind. In my experience as a Dan grade if I do tsuki on a sensei they usually give it back as well (Double).

You do need to be careful when using tsuki on a junior if they haven't been taught how to receive the waza. It could be a bit of a shock and a bit dangerous as well.

Saying all this I can't understand why your sensei was so angry as you are shodan and you should be able to practice tsuki on the right people. It's difficult to know when he doesn't tell you why you can't use tsuki.... Anyway, keep on training.

Cheers

[Alison2805]

I'm especially annoyed because I still have respect for this man.

From my limited kyu point of view: No matter who someone is, if they said those comments to me I would not respect them at all. If youd tried to rip of the sensei's men, or tsuki a beginner, then perhaps Id understand SOME of the comments.

Theres no excuse for verbal abuse of that nature. He sounds like an ass. Sorry if thats too honest.

[Masahiro]

I almost never practice tsuki with my sensei, the sensei that I started kendo under. So, it's just depends on who you are, and who you are practicing against/with. Though for someone to say "don't tsuki me" is a cowardly act. I mean I've tried my terrible Jodan (at the time) against a nanadan, who was nice enough to allow me to continue using the stance after he fired like 20 shots at each of my kote and other parts of my body all in like 10 seconds. heheheh, Maeda sensei is certainly kind in his own way isn't he? hahahaha.

if he's such a tough Motha F*@#$ (did he actually use that term?) he shouldn't mind the tsuki, thus it can be assumed that since he's so grumpy he till needs to get laid! cause apparently he didn't get enough!

apparently he missed Eiga's famouse tsuki for which he was famed for at the last WKC. Does he live under a rock or what?

I do agree with him that a weak tsuki is shit, if you want to tsuki .. really thrust at the other guy so that it hurts, and if you can do it correctly .. tis a sight.. anyone can play a piano, but playing piano (or for that matter any instrument, or anything) well is very difficult.

in the end, i think this particular sensei should be "down graded"!

[ahmed61086]

Well, its not like you tsukied your sensei, which would be pretty bad in most cases. I dont see why he should be so angry about you using tsuki. If anything, if he felt you did something wrong, he should have corrected you, not harrassed you.

Everybody makes mistakes, and a good teacher understands that, and usually wont go ballistic for one error.

My sensei complimented me on my tsuki(moroke(sp?)) today and awarded me a point for one (katate) in a practice shiai, and I am not even shodan....I guess some senseis are just very different in their Ideas and practices of certain techniques? Not sure. Hopefully this thread can answer a few questions. Maybe you can get a better explaination from him sometime, if you realy want to. That situation just sounds awkward to me.

[nikozamo]

wow ... just you need to now when you can make and when you cant... in my case... the first time i make a tsuki(really good katate stuki) to a sensei i get violet medals in my chest hahaha, and after that the sensei just say me some errors of the stuki and he leave do a few more....

[Kuri]

It all sounds so surreal.

In terms of using tsuki in jugeiko, you have to be careful on who you use it against. If it's against lower grades, do they know how to receive it? If not, they're likely to tilt their head back and expose their throat. If it's a higher grade, then you're basically telling them they can't hold centre. Don't be surprised if they see it as a challange. Against someone who uses jodan kamae, then they don't have centre and so tsuki is definetly on.

For someone who is shodan, it's prudent to ask higher grades if you can use it in your jugeiko with them. That way, there's no misunderstanding.

As for his rant, it all sounds quite strange.

[johnkichu]

Wow - sounds like the sabumnim was having a bad day!

Some guys are very strict with who can do what technique, depending on your grade & experience, but this person shouldn't have gone off on you like that. It sounds ignorant.

I also noticed that Korean instructors are very sensitive about their students visiting other dojangs/dojos, especially if you visit a kendo dojo. I've heard what you quoted, almost verbatim, being said, many times. Terms like nang-in (ronin) gets thrown around, etc... To some degree, I guess I agree - if you are a true beginner, and if the minor differences are going to confuse you, you shouldn't do this - but if you are a chodan, this should not be an issue.

[tgsfg]

Wow - sounds like the sabumnim was having a bad day!

Some guys are very strict with who can do what technique, depending on your grade & experience, but this person shouldn't have gone off on you like that. It sounds ignorant.

I also noticed that Korean instructors are very sensitive about their students visiting other dojangs/dojos, especially if you visit a kendo dojo. I've heard what you quoted, almost verbatim, being said, many times. Terms like nang-in (ronin) gets thrown around, etc... To some degree, I guess I agree - if you are a true beginner, and if the minor differences are going to confuse you, you shouldn't do this - but if you are a chodan, this should not be an issue.
The thing is, I was visiting HIS dojo. I was there as a visitor, so there was no way I could know the "no tsuki" rule. Especially because when I attended there regularly, there was one shodan who used to do tsukis often.
The person I tsukied wasn't the sensei, wasn't a sempai, and wasn't a beginner. He was 1kyu and actually was my sempai (it's kind of hard to call someone younger than you that. Korean culture) when I firsted started.

He didn't really say outright, "I'm a tough mother fucker," but it was very close to it (remember all the conversation went on in Korean). What he did was basically say some name as if that person is amazing. Like, "Do you know Park Chan Ho Sensei!?" Then he would tell me some story about how Park sensei respects him so much or is scared of him. I don't remember how many names he mentioned, but I have a feeling he was trying to find my sensei then tell me how my sensei is lower than him. He kept looking at my zekken, so I just got that feeling. Did I mention he spoke of my dojo with a condescending tone? I told him where I attend and he said, "That place has like no people right?"

I don't know. Everything he said doesn't sound as harsh or mean in KOrean I guess. It's that whole, old guy telling a young kid thing. Basically what happened was, he was talking and I was doing the Korean equivalent of, "Hai, Hai, Hai, hai" while bowing frequently. At the end, I even said, "THank you for your time/teachings." He asked me to come back when I could.

[Super Kodachi]

I can't comment on Korean ettiquette or Kumdo, as I've never been to a Korean Dojang. However I am aware of the sometimes over zealous attitude of some people who follow the Kumdo vs Kendo arguement.

From a Kendo, or rather more generally Budo (I used to do alot of Tae Kwon Do when younger) point of view though I can say that I think this attitude is extremely ignorant and ridiculous.

Why ignore elements of a path simply based upon your own views or biases? To do so is ignoring a major part of the thing as a whole and is counter productive. None of us devised the techniques and no one is good enough to make new techniques/waza. Not even Hachidan would dream of inventing a new cut because they felt like it. What right does he have to question a technique that is a fundamental element of ken/Kum Do?

The waza we have have been passed down over generations and are vital essential parts of the art we practice. Fair enough you can decide to not use certain waza if you dont personally like them or find them difficult (even though this is still wrong in a wider sense). But to rebuke others for doing these techniques that have a justified place within the Kendo curiculum.. that is no attitude for any teacher regardless of the art in question.

I think that the important lesson to learn from this experience is that you did right to leave that dojo in the first place, just don't go back there again.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I won't address the sensei's attitude, other than to say I'm unimpressed. However you should avoid attempting tsuki when visiting other clubs, because regardless of you or your sensei's view on the other matter, to many people using tsuki at your level in jigeiko is disrepectful.

[Charlie]

I don't know. Everything he said doesn't sound as harsh or mean in KOrean I guess. It's that whole, old guy telling a young kid thing. Basically what happened was, he was talking and I was doing the Korean equivalent of, "Hai, Hai, Hai, hai" while bowing frequently. At the end, I even said, "THank you for your time/teachings." He asked me to come back when I could.

Sounds like major cultural misunderstanding. Your first post made it sound like you got ripped a new one in a quite unreasonable way, this makes it sound like you got a severe but polite dressing down. I, too, don't understand Korean etiquette (barely understand kendo reigi and some of the intricacies) but you make it sound like this is in keeping with that etiquette.

Question: when you left that dojang, did you do so on polite terms? Did you ask ahead of time about visiting, or did you just drop in? Did you do anything else during practice that might have affected sabunmin's view of you? All questions to be considered in trying to process the experience.

[tango]

apparently he missed Eiga's famouse tsuki for which he was famed for at the last WKC.


Maybe that's precisely why he has the attitude he has.
Pent-up anger.

[tgsfg]

Sounds like major cultural misunderstanding. Your first post made it sound like you got ripped a new one in a quite unreasonable way, this makes it sound like you got a severe but polite dressing down. I, too, don't understand Korean etiquette (barely understand kendo reigi and some of the intricacies) but you make it sound like this is in keeping with that etiquette.
It wasn't polite, I just accepted. I just realized that it sounds even worse in English


Question: when you left that dojang, did you do so on polite terms? Did you ask ahead of time about visiting, or did you just drop in? Did you do anything else during practice that might have affected sabunmin's view of you? All questions to be considered in trying to process the experience.
I came an hour before practice started and asked if I can join in. During practice, I did nothing else that could've made him mad. I left on good terms. He invited me to come again.

[Kenzan]

I suppose there are a few ways to look at this:

1. Just consider him a disrespectful, egotistical jerk, and leave the Dojang when you've have enough.

2. You thank him in your heart for teaching you something (Though not in the way you wish to hear it, at least it is a viewpoint.)

But lastly, he may be teaching you something even more valuable from his method, in that you can see for yourself what one way looks like,(His) and choose the another if you wish. I.e., My father was abusive/a screamer/angry, etc..and through his actions he has inadvertently taught me not to be that way.
Good luck to you.
:)

[Charlie]

I left on good terms. He invited me to come again.

That's the part that baffles me. If he's so pissed off why is he so eager to have you come again? Well, sometimes these personality tics are beyond understanding and you understand Korean martial arts etiquette way better than I do!

[johnkichu]

Well, sometimes these personality tics are beyond understanding

Yes - perhaps it's just the way this person is.

[tgsfg]

That's the part that baffles me. If he's so pissed off why is he so eager to have you come again? Well, sometimes these personality tics are beyond understanding and you understand Korean martial arts etiquette way better than I do!
My friend who attends that dojo came up to me and said, "I think he's just mad that you left us." That's a possibility. No one understood his personality to begin with, he was famous for stoping practice to start an odd speech anyways.

[Charlie]

I hate you. You're a bastard. Do you know who I am? Do you want to fight me? Jerk.

Please come again, any time. Nice to see you.

:D

[tgsfg]

I hate you. You're a bastard. Do you know who I am? Do you want to fight me? Jerk.
Please come again, any time. Nice to see you.
:D
That's basically what he said. At the end of the day, he said, "Train hard and come again if you can." He might've said (the guys speaks old Korean so yea..), "Come back to this dojo if you can."

I left the dojo because of personal issues (involving an outside conflict with a dojomate). I decided I'd go to the smaller dojo nearby. I stayed, even when the other guy left the other dojo because of the friendlier atmosphere. Most of that comes from the sensei. Both senseis have a lot to teach, but I just didn't like the attitude of the sensei I mentioned here. I especially didn't like the way he always had favourites. When I visited, he was training the top members for 30 full mins into class while everyone else just ran around doing nothing.

[johnkichu]

tgsfg,

Which dojo is this? You can send me a PM if you want. This is sounding a bit familiar.

John

[hobbit]

" It's not good to visit other dojos, or go from one dojo to another dojo. People who visit other dojos never turn out to be good kendokas. "

I'm obviously missing something . . . I always thought that this was part of the tradition of kendo, and pretty vital to gain experience.

[tgsfg]

tgsfg,

Which dojo is this? You can send me a PM if you want. This is sounding a bit familiar.

John

I'm all the way in CA btw, but I sent you a PM.

[Landorph]

DUDe..

QUOTE: "The thing is, I was visiting HIS dojo. I was there as a visitor, so there was no way I could know the "no tsuki" rule."

Its not a matter of Korean vs japanese... style kendo/kumdo.

It's about the things you do in training and dojo.

If you started your kendo at one dojo.. by all means, that is your home dojo. The sensei who taught you kendo.. will always be your sensei.. doesn't matter if you travelled.. visited other dojo in other country for years and years... there could be a sensei whom your's studied under alot more powerful than your original one..

but your original sensei will still be your sensei, your original dojo will always be your dojo.

This applies to Japan as well.. where their highschool DOjo.. or the local dojo they started kendo when they are a kid will be their home dojo. and you must respect and treat it like your home dojo.. when you return to it years later.. you cant treat it as you are just a visitor.. no mater where you train..

eg in Shiai.. your two dojo met. You've started kendo with DOJO A. but left after you've gone into bogu. went to DOJO B.. trained there for like few years.

#1 - you should not compete in a shiai against your DOjo A.
#2 - if your senseis allow it. (dojo A & B). you should fight for DOJO A.



TSUKI
The sense that in training.. one should never attempt a one handed tsuki. It is rude to your motodachi , especially if they are not of your equal level. a proper tsuki would not have been flamed by that sensei.

You should only tsuki your seniors if they approve, that you are familiar with them well enough.. that you allow you to practice tsuki on them in jigeiko... however, why practice tsuki in the first place if you have not perfected your Men Kote and Doh?


it's okay to do tsuki if your sensei says you can.



ANGRY SENSEI:

He's angry

#1 - u left his dojo.
#2 - you still come back treating your home dojo as a visiting place.
#3 - your intension (from what u said) is happy about how you can beat up your fellow students.
#4 - u did a ONE handed tsuki (NOOOOOOOOOOOOO)
#5 - you left the dojo and came back and did a ONE handed tsuki on a Kohai.
#6 - you are only Shodan.. u've just started the kendo journey..
#7 - plenty of Shodans in japan.. 10 year olds are Shodans.. nothing special.
#8 - maybe you are too proud to reach 10 year old kendo level.. and trying to show off.



:p JUST my 50 cents...nothing personal.. just making my statement..
(all maybes & possibilities)

Kendo is not just about skill.. its about dealing with people in life as well..
and if a sensei told you off.. then do it properly their way when u visit.. and with dedication to kendo.. i'm sure he will like you soon enough...

[AlexM]

You're sensei has issues well beyond tsuki. If he acts as you describe then he makes me look like a balanced individual. Maybe he has issues with Naoki Eiga? Is his name Kim Yung Nam? :)

Landorph,

There's no such thing as a 10 year old shodan. Every country has age requirements: I'm thinking you have to be at least 14 years old to get shodan, even in Japan.

[tgsfg]

DUDe..
Its not a matter of Korean vs japanese... style kendo/kumdo.
It's about the things you do in training and dojo.
If you started your kendo at one dojo.. by all means, that is your home dojo. The sensei who taught you kendo.. will always be your sensei.. doesn't matter if you travelled.. visited other dojo in other country for years and years... there could be a sensei whom your's studied under alot more powerful than your original one..
but your original sensei will still be your sensei, your original dojo will always be your dojo.

This applies to Japan as well.. where their highschool DOjo.. or the local dojo they started kendo when they are a kid will be their home dojo. and you must respect and treat it like your home dojo.. when you return to it years later.. you cant treat it as you are just a visitor.. no mater where you train..

eg in Shiai.. your two dojo met. You've started kendo with DOJO A. but left after you've gone into bogu. went to DOJO B.. trained there for like few years.

#1 - you should not compete in a shiai against your DOjo A.
#2 - if your senseis allow it. (dojo A & B). you should fight for DOJO A.
I'm sorry, but why? It's forever considered my primary dojo because I was there for five months? I don't understand this concept at all, especially because I feel like almost everything I learned was from a different sensei. I was being the "visitor" because I WAS a visitor. I do consider him as my sensei, but not my only sensei, nor my primary sensei.



TSUKI
The sense that in training.. one should never attempt a one handed tsuki. It is rude to your motodachi , especially if they are not of your equal level. a proper tsuki would not have been flamed by that sensei.
You should only tsuki your seniors if they approve, that you are familiar with them well enough.. that you allow you to practice tsuki on them in jigeiko... however, why practice tsuki in the first place if you have not perfected your Men Kote and Doh?
it's okay to do tsuki if your sensei says you can.
The whole tsuki thing isn't even all that important, it's his reaction that's more important. As for the last part of you comment up there, my sensei DID say it's ok for me to practice tsuki.




ANGRY SENSEI:

He's angry

#1 - u left his dojo.
#2 - you still come back treating your home dojo as a visiting place.
#3 - your intension (from what u said) is happy about how you can beat up your fellow students.
#4 - u did a ONE handed tsuki (NOOOOOOOOOOOOO)
#5 - you left the dojo and came back and did a ONE handed tsuki on a Kohai.
#6 - you are only Shodan.. u've just started the kendo journey..
#7 - plenty of Shodans in japan.. 10 year olds are Shodans.. nothing special.
#8 - maybe you are too proud to reach 10 year old kendo level.. and trying to show off.

:p JUST my 50 cents...nothing personal.. just making my statement..
(all maybes & possibilities)

Kendo is not just about skill.. its about dealing with people in life as well..
and if a sensei told you off.. then do it properly their way when u visit.. and with dedication to kendo.. i'm sure he will like you soon enough...

#1 He's been aware of the reason why I left. It's been 1.6 years since I left.
#2 If anyone was treating me as a visitor, he was the one doing it. I came in geared up and ready to go. He left me in the corner with bunch of little kids for 30 mins.
#3 They started kendo right before me, and we all had a hint of "rival" relationship. Was I ecstatic and giddy about having beat them? No, but I was glad to know that my kendo was moving foward.
#4 Which I apologized for, about 40 times.
#5 I came back for a visit after nearly two years. Did a one handed tsuki on someone who has done kendo longer than me. I just happened to be older and higher in rank.
#6 Thank you for telling me yesterday's news.
#7 I assume you live in Japan? 10 year old shodan? I'm sorry, but it's hard to believe. Even in Korea, kids aren't given shodan till they are at least 14 years of age. This is considering that the kid has done kendo for about six years.
#8 Beautiful way to lecture about kendo etiquette and decorum. Did they teach you that in your dojo at Japan? I doubt it.

If kendo is about dealing with people in life, the sensei I mentioned didn't do his best that day.

And please, with all due respect, do not be condescending. I'm an adult too.

[Nanbanjin]

To do tsuki you have to be:
so good that you can do it properly, or
so bad that you don't even know that you're not doing it properly.

If done incorrectly tsuki is far more dangerous than any other strike in kendo, so it's natural to treat it with more caution.

I've met instructors who tsuki only to show you that you are too close and open. In that case it is an instructional tool. It shows you that you can't just walk in as close as you want.

The only time I can see where tsuki has a place as a valid aggressive technique is against jodan or nitoh. I've seen jodan players get upset when someone does a less than perfect tsuki against them, but it's hard to feel pity for them. What else are you supposed to do against jodan?

Eiga's tsuki at the last WKC was a cop out and a let down.

[Makigai]

Stuff like this is going to happen. Who is right or wrong is not important after the fact. Its his dojo, and you obviously respect that fact. The fact you ended on friendly terms says volumes. It could have escalated if you reacted poorly, but it did not.

You apologized for your tsuki. Use this as a lesson on how not to react to a innocent mistake.

[Optomitrist]

Sounds like a nut, but thinking from the nut's side of view. Do you think it is possible that in his dojo someone a while back was seriously injured doing tsuki and he just flipped out?

I also took Taekwondo and I can easily say that the japanese senseis are very different than the korean instructors.

[Alison2805]

The sense that in training.. one should never attempt a one handed tsuki. It is rude to your motodachi

Does anyone else have this point of view? We practise one and two handed tsuki. Often.

Its rude to do tsuki on someone above your level, or someone below you who isnt used to it or doesnt know youll attempt it. In competition it is only counted in Dan grades. This is all cool and groovy.

But getting upset over one handed tsuki? Is this common?

[Masahiro]

I tsuki EVERYBODY (of course with the acception of my sensei, and the Nooobies) but I most like to tsuki people that are higher in rank than me, (or someone who really holds a strong chudan) I mean how else am I suppose to know that my tsuki really works?

p.s. let's not go overboard with psychoanalyizing this particular sensei yeah? he's human, we are human, we have our tics. and he has his! <<

[tgsfg]

Sounds like a nut, but thinking from the nut's side of view. Do you think it is possible that in his dojo someone a while back was seriously injured doing tsuki and he just flipped out?

I also took Taekwondo and I can easily say that the japanese senseis are very different than the korean instructors.

I hope that's not the reason why he got mad. Because in one of his "I'm high and mighty" speeches, he mentioned the guy who did jodan on him. He thought the guy who was doing jodan was "not following decorum," so the sensei apparently gave him a tsuki hard enough to knock the guy on the floor. He even said, "I was trying to purposely miss so I can hurt him more, but I slipped and hit him on target."

[Alison2805]

Stuff that. Id rather quit kendo than train with someone who does that. Hes a walking lawsuit.

[tgsfg]

Stuff that. Id rather quit kendo than train with someone who does that. Hes a walking lawsuit.
Can you imagine why I decided to stay at my current dojo?

[Alison2805]

:D smart man!!! You can tsuki me anytime! (no smut intended :normal: )

[JSchmidt]

I'm obviously missing something . . . I always thought that this was part of the tradition of kendo, and pretty vital to gain experience.

After a solid foundation has been laid down, yes.

[JSchmidt]

The only time I can see where tsuki has a place as a valid aggressive technique is against jodan or nitoh. I've seen jodan players get upset when someone does a less than perfect tsuki against them, but it's hard to feel pity for them. What else are you supposed to do against jodan?

Hit their kote?..seriously, though, when I started jodan, I was told that I could never complain about missed tsukis etc. It's part of the deal. We've slightly modified that since then, so now that the only missed tsuki's I can complain about, are the ones that will prevent from drinking the post-keiko beer. (Only happened once sofar..)

[Charlie]

Stuff like this is going to happen. Who is right or wrong is not important after the fact. Its his dojo, and you obviously respect that fact. The fact you ended on friendly terms says volumes. It could have escalated if you reacted poorly, but it did not.

You apologized for your tsuki. Use this as a lesson on how not to react to a innocent mistake.

Well said. tsfg handled it well.

[Neil Gendzwill]

but your original sensei will still be your sensei, your original dojo will always be your dojo. That's the way I feel about my own situation, but if your first sensei is crap? What about Kaoru, who started with an obvious fraud and switched once she found out? There are no absolutes in this sort of thing.

#1 - you should not compete in a shiai against your DOjo A.
#2 - if your senseis allow it. (dojo A & B). you should fight for DOJO A.Never heard of that sort of rule. We've exported several people to other dojos, and fully expect them to fight for their new dojo when they come back to visit our tournament. Hell, we even lend players out to other teams if they're short a man, and this is not uncommon in other tournaments either.

The sense that in training.. one should never attempt a one handed tsuki.So you are supposed to only try that technique in waza keiko and never bust it out until shiai? It's a technique like any other, subject to a few restrictions like...

You should only tsuki your seniors if they approveThis is true. It's customary to ask for permission to use tsuki (or jodan for that matter) with sensei.

#7 - plenty of Shodans in japan.. 10 year olds are Shodans.. nothing special.Japan has the same age limits as other places, there are no 10 year olds with that rank although there are plenty with the skill.

[bullet08]

this sounds like a bad kung fu movie where sooner or later somone goes 'you killed my brother. i kill you now!'

pete

[MikeW]

Well TGSFG, I think we can all agree that you handled the situation very well. If I were your sensei I would be very proud of the way you honored yourself and your home dojo by your conduct.

[Hai_hai]

That dude had issues. But, I don't agree with your current sensei asking you to practice tsuki if you are shodan.

[misterkurukuru]

both of you are wrong, leave it at that and move on. ask the sensei before if it okay to practice tsuki.

[Masahiro]

this sounds like a bad kung fu movie where sooner or later somone goes 'you killed my brother. i kill you now!'

pete

of course, this dialogue would be accompanied by off beat lip movement, and cheezy/over-dramatic chinese music in the background. <<Oh man, were those movies good back in the day, and provids plenty of entertainment value these days. hahahahaha.

[tgsfg]

this sounds like a bad kung fu movie where sooner or later somone goes 'you killed my brother. i kill you now!'

pete

I might be too young to know what you're talking about.

[Dervish]

of course, this dialogue would be accompanied by off beat lip movement, and cheezy/over-dramatic chinese music in the background. <<Oh man, were those movies good back in the day, and provids plenty of entertainment value these days. hahahahaha.

Somebody ought to take these old martial arts flicks and make a show very similar to Mystery Science Theatre 3000. It would be very entertaining :)

[bpaang]

i bet they already made an mst 3000 for it lol

[Kenzan]

Somebody ought to take these old martial arts flicks and make a show very similar to Mystery Science Theatre 3000. It would be very entertaining :)

Posted before, but hilarious none the less:

ACTUAL ENGLISH SUBTITLES USED IN FILMS MADE IN HONG KONG


1. I am damn unsatisfied to be killed in this way.

2. Fatty, you with your thick face have hurt my instep.

3. Gun wounds again?

4. Same old rules: no eyes, no groin.

5. A normal person wouldn't steal pituitaries.

6. Damn, I'll burn you into a BBQ chicken!

7. Take my advice, or I'll spank you without pants.

8. Who gave you the nerve to get killed here?

9. Quiet or I'll blow your throat up.

10. You always use violence. I should've ordered glutinous rice chicken.

11. I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!

12. You daring lousy guy.

13. Beat him out of recognizable shape!

14. I have been scared shitless too much lately.

15. I got knife scars more than the number of your leg's hair!

16. Beware! Your bones are going to be disconnected.

17. The bullets inside are very hot. Why do I feel so cold?

18. How can you use my intestines as a gift?

19. This will be of fine service for you, you bag of the scum. I am sure you will not mind that I remove your manhoods and leave them out on the dessert flour for your aunts to eat. [sic, of course]

20. Yah-hah, evil spider woman! I have captured you by the short rabbits and can now deliver you violently to your gynecologist for a thorough examination.

21. Greetings, large black person. Let us not forget to form a team up together and go into the country to inflict the pain of our karate feets on some ass of the giant lizard person.

From:
http://www.esatclear.ie/~irish.trade/bj000004.htm

[cesarekim]

When in doubt and a guest, I would definitely support the apology and discreet withdrawal path that was followed.

WRT tsuki, I guess the question should be posed to the sensei prior to class especially considering you had the manners to show up before and ask permission to join practice. Having said that, when I'm a guest at a dojang I don't know, I try to avoid tsuki simply because I cannot know who is senior and who is not. In your case, you knew the people there but had not seen their development in over a year. I'm not sure I'd be very comfortable using tsuki in that scenario...

I think we've all seen what happens when the person receiving the love tap flinches and tries to get out of the way of the shinai. It's never pretty. If you're not SURE that you can hit them square on before they can respond, I would suggest that it's best to wait till you know them better.

BTW, I regularly try tsuki on my sempai but that's because I know them and they know me. Anybody I don't know will never be the target of a tsuki unless it's a real shiai...

[nikozamo]

one more thing... one person say to me: ``if you make a stuki to a person, for sure will get angry, if you make stuki-men, will be surprised...``

i think it`s the better thing what i heard about stuki in my life...

[Landorph]

okay regarding the 10 year old.. that's just an exageration.. u know.. kids... age limit 14.. there'd be like thousands of them... in japan and korea. to be shodan.

yeah refering back to that tsuki.. yes what you did was good.. appologize.. and rest the way they run things in their dojo..

one thing for certain... please... KENDOKAS!!! dont show prejudice over Kendo and Kumdo... just because they are kumdoka.. just because they did something that is different to your kendo dojo... doesn't make kumdo that way to kendo.

Kendo and Kumdo should be balanced.. regardless of nationalistic pride.. regardless of politics... and regardless of personal bias.. and racial prejudice.. martial arts should be devoted to that level.. and they should not be treated differently..

there are kumdo dojang that trains like japanese kendo dojo. there are japanese kendo dojo that trains like kumdo... it's the same thing.. just different exercise routines.. and practices..

and if u make it at that.. all dojo have different exercise.. warm ups.. and how they run their training..

so if this DOJO u went doesn't want people do one hand tsuki.... maybe its forbidden.. then dont do it......

for those visiting.. it's best to bet on Men and Kote... dont try anything fancy.. it could be misinterpreted as " showing off."

[Hai_hai]

both of you are wrong, leave it at that and move on. ask the sensei before if it okay to practice tsuki.
Also ask sensei if you can practice balls tsuki waza. Most will say no.

[tgsfg]

okay regarding the 10 year old.. that's just an exageration.. u know.. kids... age limit 14.. there'd be like thousands of them... in japan and korea. to be shodan.

yeah refering back to that tsuki.. yes what you did was good.. appologize.. and rest the way they run things in their dojo..

one thing for certain... please... KENDOKAS!!! dont show prejudice over Kendo and Kumdo... just because they are kumdoka.. just because they did something that is different to your kendo dojo... doesn't make kumdo that way to kendo.

Kendo and Kumdo should be balanced.. regardless of nationalistic pride.. regardless of politics... and regardless of personal bias.. and racial prejudice.. martial arts should be devoted to that level.. and they should not be treated differently..

there are kumdo dojang that trains like japanese kendo dojo. there are japanese kendo dojo that trains like kumdo... it's the same thing.. just different exercise routines.. and practices..

and if u make it at that.. all dojo have different exercise.. warm ups.. and how they run their training..

so if this DOJO u went doesn't want people do one hand tsuki.... maybe its forbidden.. then dont do it......

for those visiting.. it's best to bet on Men and Kote... dont try anything fancy.. it could be misinterpreted as " showing off."
What's with this whole Kumdo vs kendo issue? No one was comparing the two, it's just that most people know I attend kumdo dojangs. The sensei I talked about was saying everything to me in Korean. So the idea of Korean etiquette came up, no one was saying kumdo was bad or kendo was bad.

I don't really care if five year olds have shodan rank, your misinformation wasn't the bad thing, it was the way you said it.

[stephanie dee]

I hate Tsuki. If someone tried to tsuki me, I would cry.

The only time I have been tsuki-ed it missed that little pad thing and went right under my men and got my throat. Somehow it burnt/cut my neck and rammed right under my chin, pushing my head back. I wasn't exactly full of confidence to begin with, and i had only just gotten into Bogu so I was like a beginner, it really knocked my confidence, comething i haven't ever re developed (not saying it was developed in the first place!) Needless to say it really scared me and I haven't done it since, and I wont let anyone Tsuki me.

I really hate Tsuki, i don't think it should be allowed.

[Paikea]

I hate Tsuki. If someone tried to tsuki me, I would cry.That simply will not do. Like M. French says - "tsuki is a gift". Use it to get your focus back where it should be.

[nebosuke]

I really hate Tsuki, i don't think it should be allowed.

This is a really unfortunate attitude, but I don't think the blame lies fully with you. From how it sounds, somebody who probably should not have been delivering a tsuki tried one against somebody who was in no way ready to receive a tsuki. That's just a bad combination with failure written all over it. I don't mean to make light of it, but things went about as wrong as they're likely to (sure possible to be worse, but unlikely) and you still walked away with only superficial injuries.

However, you need to to write it off as a mistake caused by a bad situation and move forward form it. You can't ignore tsuki, and saying it shoulnd't be allowed is unreasonable. You need to speak with your sensei and tell him/her that when he believes you are ready, you would like to work on tsuki - both attacking and receiving. This way you can regain your confidence against it by having somebody who isn't going to miss come after you.

I don't know how well this is or is not known, so here's a bit of trivia - there is actually a name for the bruise left by a missed tsuki. It's called sakuranbo because the way the sakigawa is folded at the tip can leave a pattern similar to a cheery blossom.

[stephanie dee]

Yeah I did have a bruise actually! It burnt my neck though, i think that it was the stringy part of the shinai that must have caused it... I dont know what else it would have been.

My mind will not be changed. I am not normally so stubborn, but on this I am. I really do not like Tsuki, and i just would not let someone do it to me. It so knocked my confidence, it was a horrible experince that really shook me up. And it hurt!

[Paikea]

It so knocked my confidence, it was a horrible experince that really shook me up.Imagine how wonderful it would be NOT to be disturbed by a tsuki, and then to have the presence of mind to defeat it and win. If you keiko with that fear in your head, your opponent has already won.

[Halcyon]

To borrow the words of Kamei sensei, kyoshi hachidan, who recently visited New York from Japan: If someone misses tsuki, it can hurt, sometimes a lot. It may even make you cry. But you won't die. It's okay.:ko:

[Nanbanjin]

Yeah I did have a bruise actually! It burnt my neck though, i think that it was the stringy part of the shinai that must have caused it... I dont know what else it would have been.

My mind will not be changed. I am not normally so stubborn, but on this I am. I really do not like Tsuki, and i just would not let someone do it to me. It so knocked my confidence, it was a horrible experince that really shook me up. And it hurt!

Tsuki is difficult to do properly but for some reason people who can't do it properly find it difficult NOT to do.

Tsuki comes with an inherent problem.
To tsuki or not to tsuki requires a little brain-work. Is this guy more senior than me? Will tsuki piss them off? Can this person cope with tsuki physically? etc. The result is that people incapable of brain-work (read "stupid people") are far more likely to use tsuki.

[Nanbanjin]

To borrow the words of Kamei sensei, kyoshi hachidan, who recently visited New York from Japan: If someone misses tsuki, it can hurt, sometimes a lot. It may even make you cry. But you won't die. It's okay.:ko:
I translated a post somewhere by a guy who was hospitalised for a month after being tsuki'd and who very nearly did die.

And in Musashi-no-ken, Musashi's dad got killed by tsuki so there!

[Paikea]

Tsuki is difficult to do properly but for some reason people who can't do it properly find it difficult NOT to do.

Tsuki comes with an inherent problem.
To tsuki or not to tsuki requires a little brain-work. Is this guy more senior than me? Will tsuki piss them off? Can this person cope with tsuki physically? etc. The result is that people incapable of brain-work (read "stupid people") are far more likely to use tsuki.Do work those questions out before sonkyo, though.

[Hai_hai]

Do work those questions out before sonkyo, though.
What? My mind is processing tons of questions during sonkyo, like "Does my fancy #10000 hakama intimidate you?" or "His bogu is fancy, I think I already lost"

Hee hee.

[Halcyon]

I translated a post somewhere by a guy who was hospitalised for a month after being tsuki'd and who very nearly did die.
The operative word there being "nearly." :wink:

[Nanbanjin]

The operative word there being "nearly." :wink:

How about:

　“突き”動作に伴い発生する力は、突き垂と用心垂によって咽喉部（のど）への直接的な衝撃が防がれている 。しかし、過去にも頚動脈内壁損傷から生じた血栓が脳梗塞を発症させ死亡するという悲惨な事故例が報告され ている。

Power generated through tsuki is prevented from transferring impact to the throat by the nodo-bu and the safety-tare. However, in the past there have been reports of death due to cerebral infarction caused by blood clots forming due to damage to the carotid artery.

c.f. http://www.budo.ac/kendo/infomation/nakiri060201/nakiri060201.html

[Paikea]

What? My mind is processing tons of questions during sonkyo, like "Does my fancy #10000 hakama intimidate you?" or "His bogu is fancy, I think I already lost"

Hee hee.See? You're not even worried about a broken larynx so long as the style competition has been won. Bravo!

[Hai_hai]

See? You're not even worried about a broken larynx so long as the style competition has been won. Bravo!
Probably sounds non-ninja-ish but I don't do tsuki.

[Dervish]

What? My mind is processing tons of questions during sonkyo, like "Does my fancy #10000 hakama intimidate you?" or "His bogu is fancy, I think I already lost"

Hee hee.

http://noelio.blogia.com/upload/zoolander_hansel_bowie.jpg

[razorblade2099]

Also ask sensei if you can practice balls tsuki waza. Most will say no.



http://youtube.com/watch?v=nMbTHgnXudI

This guy unfortunately had no choice. *cringes*


***Edit***

Dammit, it's already been posted!

[Dervish]

That's very scary, indeed. Would a cup absorb the force of that tsuki?

[Ignatz]

That's very scary, indeed. Would a cup absorb the force of that tsuki?
No cup! No jock strap! The boys need to hang free and they will be ok.