Why is NITOH Satan's love child? [Archive]

Nanbanjin

11th November 2006, 12:19 PM

Because it's boring. Because it tends towards stickfighting. Because it's 'ninki', esp among samurai wanabees. [a very big ;)]

But then I don't like jodan either. The satisfaction of scoring ippon in jodan is not equal to the satisfaction of ippon from chudan IMB (in my book).

b
I don't mind Jodan, but I reckon you've got a massive advantage using it in shiai (outside of Japan at least) because so few people can tsuki effectively.

Nitoh is not fun to play against. So people who do nitoh are playing for their own pleasure.... Read that however you like.

Nanbanjin

11th November 2006, 01:49 PM

Here's some more clips.

http://musashikai.jp/pc/06_dojo/index_13.html

JBouch

11th November 2006, 02:01 PM

I think that fighting with anybody who uses a stance besides chudan allows us to examine our kendo in a fresh way, especially yudansha; moving away from our usual array of waza and our methods of applying seme gives us a chance to examine our kendo from a new point of view. At least, that's how I've felt when I have fought with people using jodan, hasso or nito. The problem for me, though, is that I rarely ever get that chance. If it happened every week, it may not feel that way as much, but if it happens a few times a year, it's not as easy to bring that alternate perspective into proper focus. I guess it's not so different from practicing with the same people every week, but occasionally fighting others from nearby dojos in a tournament.

Nanbanjin

11th November 2006, 02:06 PM

I agree. It's hard to even comment on it because I've hardly ever had a chance to play against it. I used to play in a dojo where there was a nito player but the instructors would mutter behind his back that he should be doing chudan. Also, it's a non-conformist style in Japan, so it takes a non-conformist to do it.

Masahiro

11th November 2006, 04:06 PM

I think that fighting with anybody who uses a stance besides chudan allows us to examine our kendo in a fresh way, especially yudansha;

Agreed,

i've seen very few people who do nito right. the best I've seen is in the "kendo's grueling challenge" videa where in the 2nd bout of the first round elimination when Miyamoto spared against a nitto opponent. His nitto was smooth, agile, and very graceful. My personal thought is one ought to be able to start with itto, and then master the basics, then move onto other kamae(s).. like jodan and so forth then eventually to nito.

KhawMengLee

11th November 2006, 11:22 PM

I love jodan because any men strick that scores in shiai always has that nice loud satisfying 'pok!' sound to it.

hyuna

11th November 2006, 11:54 PM

My personal thought is one ought to be able to start with itto, and then master the basics, then move onto other kamae(s).. like jodan and so forth then eventually to nito.
It does seem like it would be like that...

But, I keep hearing things from various sensei like "it took 30 years to learn how to relax my right arm" or "in 60 years I managed to hit only one men I felt was good," and about how you return to basics as you move up. I don't believe you ever "master the basics."

Even if you could master the basics, I am not sure what the purpose of moving to different kamae after "mastering" chudan would be, so I am not sure why someone would choose to do it except to try to gain advantage in matches. Again, hypothetically speaking, since it doesn't really seem like you can master chudan in the first place.

Lloromannic

12th November 2006, 12:19 AM

Possibly because the purpose of Kendo is not to master chudan?

Now, Jodan can give you an advantage against someone who hasn't seen it before, but it's also very very hard to do. It's tiring, and sometimes frustrating, remember that you are basically limiting yourself to men and the occasional kote, that the chances for follow up attacks are slim and that after a bit that left arm is really beginning to hurt.

Then again, the feeling of a solid katate men is something special.

Halcyon

12th November 2006, 03:07 AM

Nito is not Satan's love child. It's messy nito that is Satan's love child.:vampire:

First point: Several of the nito players featured in these clips are not availing themselves of one of the main advantages of katate-waza -- namely, reach. You're using a 37 shinai to begin with, so why further reduce your reach by gripping the tsuka in the middle, or even near the tsuba?

Second point: The maai with many of these nito guys is waaay too close. Instead of relying on their ki-zeme to initiate an attack (as in jodan), it appears that many of these guys are trying to get in close enough with the primary intention of manipulating the opponent's shinai with their shoto.

Neil Gendzwill

12th November 2006, 03:27 AM

You're using a 37 shinai to begin with, so why further reduce your reach by gripping the tsuka in the middle, or even near the tsuba?Defensive thing, as I understand it - you block your kote with the tsuka when you choke up.

Unless of course they're simply not strong enough to swing the daito.

ben

12th November 2006, 04:56 AM

Nito is not Satan's love child. It's messy nito that is Satan's love child.:vampire:
Agreed.

First point: Several of the nito players featured in these clips are not availing themselves of one of the main advantages of katate-waza -- namely, reach. You're using a 37 shinai to begin with, so why further reduce your reach by gripping the tsuka in the middle, or even near the tsuba?
This is how you hold the daito in tadashii nito, with the right hand, near the tsuba. In gyaku nito, you hold the daito in the left. Former jodan players like Toda sensei use gyaku nito because it's more familiar to them.

This relates to the point below: if you're close enough to engage maai with the shoto in tadashii nito, you do not need to hold the daito at the end of the tsuka.

Second point: The maai with many of these nito guys is waaay too close. Instead of relying on their ki-zeme to initiate an attack (as in jodan), it appears that many of these guys are trying to get in close enough with the primary intention of manipulating the opponent's shinai with their shoto.
Again, this is what you do in nito, hassle your opponent with the shoto. Why bother to have a second sword if not to use it?

b

Halcyon

12th November 2006, 05:25 AM

This is how you hold the daito in tadashii nito, with the right hand, near the tsuba. In gyaku nito, you hold the daito in the left.
Exactemundo! Most -- if not all -- of the folks in those clips were playing gyaku nito.

Former jodan players like Toda sensei use gyaku nito because it's more familiar to them.
Speaking of Toda sensei, whose nito is pretty damn amazing, he also uses an unorthodox foot position, that is, his left foot is out in front as in jodan.

Again, this is what you do in nito, hassle your opponent with the shoto. Why bother to have a second sword if not to use it?
Fair enough. But check out the clips again. Many of the hits are waaaay deep, with their monouchi extending beyond the back of the menbuton.

The great I AM

12th November 2006, 08:10 AM

People who bad mouth nito or say nito is crap because xyz, blatantly don't understand it.

Ignatz

12th November 2006, 09:40 AM

People who bad mouth nito or say nito is crap because xyz, blatantly don't understand it.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Nanbanjin

12th November 2006, 01:05 PM

People who bad mouth nito or say nito is crap because xyz, blatantly don't understand it.
Sooo agwessive!

Masahiro

12th November 2006, 05:05 PM

if Nitoh is Satan's love child, then "Jodan" is the wife of satan from which the love child is born, and would you venture to guess who satan is??? :evil:

Koki

24th November 2006, 01:40 AM

I agree with Gibbo... same thing for jodan. If you have never taken up jodan, you would not understand it. You might think that you understand it, but the truth is... NOT REALLY!

Doing jodan is tired and frustrating? Yeah... when you first started out. But isn't it the same for chudan?

I think one reasons a lot of sensei prefer their students to focus on chudan only is that they don't know how to teach jodan or nito. Simple as that!

Doing jodan allows me to look at kendo from a different perspective... and it is helpful for my kendo in the long run.

Aden

24th November 2006, 07:38 AM

Nito and the hidari katate aspect of jodan are two of the most perverted areas of technique in kendo and I have no desire to understand them....

Ahhh - feels better to let that out!!!

Halcyon

24th November 2006, 07:54 AM

Nito and the hidari katate aspect of jodan are two of the most perverted areas of technique in kendo and I have no desire to understand them....

Ahhh - feels better to let that out!!!
That's an interesting perspective. Care you share your thoughts on why?

ahmed61086

24th November 2006, 07:55 AM

Nito and the hidari katate aspect of jodan are two of the most perverted areas of technique in kendo and I have no desire to understand them....

Ahhh - feels better to let that out!!!

Actually, Jodan was an extremely wideused kamae not only in japanese swordsmanship, but also in the european styles with longswords.

This stance is just what chudan turns into when you raise you arms to attack. I realy have a hard time understanding why people would say Jodan is not Kendo, or is perverted. I think the only differnce between chudan and Jodan is preference.

Also, since the beginning of swordsmanship, the use of two swords, or sword and sheild has been the norm. So this is also something that cannot be said to be "not kendo". Also, for those people who think Musashi created the "two sword style", they have to think again. It was in use many many years before Musashi. He just made it popular.

Lloromannic

24th November 2006, 08:16 AM

Doing jodan is tired and frustrating? Yeah... when you first started out. But isn't it the same for chudan?

I think one reasons a lot of sensei prefer their students to focus on chudan only is that they don't know how to teach jodan or nito. Simple as that!

Doing jodan allows me to look at kendo from a different perspective... and it is helpful for my kendo in the long run.

Doing Jodan is tiring and frustrating, and i love every minute of it.

Aden

24th November 2006, 09:20 AM

Actually, Jodan was an extremely wideused kamae not only in japanese swordsmanship, but also in the european styles with longswords.

Correct - that is why I said it is hidari katate uchi from jodan I view as perverted not jodan. Jodan is a good thing. The koryu I have been exposed to (and 4 is a very small number admittedly) all use jodan as a kamae with the sword. All have katate forms, in none have I yet been taught hidari katate cuts from jodan hanging on to the end of the tsuka as a standard form of attack so my background makes me disaprove of it.

Its just personal predjudice which may change over time but I doubt it.

Koki

24th November 2006, 12:28 PM

Don't compare kendo to koryu... Kendo is not koryu, koryu is not kendo.

The important thing in Kendo, i think, is to keep an open, flexible mind. Hidari Katate Men actually is one of the most beautiful technique, I think. To be able to do it correctly, you have to have sutemi.

In chudan, if you don't get the point, it s no problem. But in jodan, you only have one chance. Either you hit and you score, or you miss and you go down.

ben

24th November 2006, 01:26 PM

...In chudan, if you don't get the point, it s no problem. But in jodan, you only have one chance. Either you hit and you score, or you miss and you go down.

Unless you're Shodai Kenji, in which case it appears that you do something akin to a propeller action with no hasuji until you run out of shiaijo.

*quickly assumes a strong jodan*

b :P

Koki

24th November 2006, 04:03 PM

Well, kenji... didn't get any ippon for that, did he?

crabbi

25th November 2006, 06:29 AM

People who bad mouth nito or say nito is crap because xyz, blatantly don't understand it.
...definitely agree there...!

Had a great training session on Wednesday evening in Pompey... had two visiting senior kendoka, one of whom used Nito and Jodan and the other used Jodan in JiGeiko...

I have been using jodan recently so this was an amazing session... enjoyed it immensely...

Not to say that Chudan is boring or unimportant... this is patently untrue... but Jodan and Nito present a whole different challenge... very interesting.

If they are 'Satan's way' then it must be like Jazz, where the Devil has all the best tunes...!

Neil Gendzwill

25th November 2006, 07:19 AM

This stance is just what chudan turns into when you raise you arms to attack. [snip] I think the only differnce between chudan and Jodan is preference.
That's a gross oversimplification. There are a lot of differences between fighting from chudan and jodan.

ahmed61086

25th November 2006, 12:31 PM

That's a gross oversimplification. There are a lot of differences between fighting from chudan and jodan.

Of course it is, fighting in Jodan and chudan are very different, but that doesnt change the fact that lifting your sword up is Jodan. Jodan mean upper position, if I am not mistaken. You are right, Im just getting technical(or being a smart-ass ;))

Neil Gendzwill

26th November 2006, 01:04 AM

Of course it is, fighting in Jodan and chudan are very different, but that doesnt change the fact that lifting your sword up is Jodan. Jodan mean upper position, if I am not mistaken. You are right, Im just getting technical(or being a smart-ass ;))Lifting your sword up from chudan to strike is not jodan, it's a transition.

tgsfg

26th November 2006, 02:08 AM

ahmed61086

26th November 2006, 04:03 AM

I have a question. Let's say you go to a shiai and in your first match you use nito. You watch your next opponent fight his first opponent, and decide that chudan would be better for this opponent. Can you go into that next match using a regular single shinai? Then keep changing between matches? Or are you stuck with one or two once you start it?

Just a random question, I have no want to do nito.

Thats a good question, I would think it wouldn't matter, because you can change from chudan to Jodan at any time you please. And when you register for the tournament, they dont ask you what kamae you will be using. I would also assume you cannot go from nito to itto while in the middle of a match though, unless there are some special circumstances.

crabbi

27th November 2006, 04:29 AM

I have a question. Let's say you go to a shiai and in your first match you use nito. You watch your next opponent fight his first opponent, and decide that chudan would be better for this opponent. Can you go into that next match using a regular single shinai? Then keep changing between matches? Or are you stuck with one or two once you start it?

Just a random question, I have no want to do nito.
That's an extremely good question and one that I meant to ask about yesterday at trainnig... look forward to seeing responses...

hobbit

27th November 2006, 04:54 AM

I'll try to remember to ask Howell Sensei tomorrow night for you mate, but afaik, there's nothing in the rules stopping it.

Masahiro

27th November 2006, 08:35 AM

[quote=tgsfg]Can you go into that next match using a regular single shinai? Then keep changing between matches? Or are you stuck with one or two once you start it?quote]

yes, you can. but you will have to use an adult regulation itto for chudan and not the daito for nito. (one is size 37 and the other is size 39)

but you make sure you are damn good at each, and are able to win against all your opponents. Because i bet you the judges aren't going to be your best friends right off the bet.

tgsfg

27th November 2006, 08:56 AM

yes, you can. but you will have to use an adult regulation itto for chudan and not the daito for nito. (one is size 37 and the other is size 39)

but you make sure you are damn good at each, and are able to win against all your opponents. Because i bet you the judges aren't going to be your best friends right off the bet.

Of course, size matters ;) .
Why wouldn't the judges like you though?

Landorph

27th November 2006, 09:55 AM

regardless.. if you play beautilful kendo... either nitto or not.. eeryone will love it.. it's just in western countries, alot of nito players are not very well skilled, but they chose to do it for fun and enjoyment and personal satisfaction, hence people bag them out. But if you are good at it.. then I dont see why people flame them...

ito or nito, they all part of kendo. If Miyamoto Musashi ranked one of the geartest swordsmen in Japan, who uses Nito, then I see no reason for those Ito players to bag nito out. you only flame them when u r jealousy or frustrated.. fueled with a biased opinion...

I dont do nito.. but I love the challenege to play my nito fellow kendoka in my dojo, he's always hard to beat.. and i think that will make my kendo better..

xvikingx

27th November 2006, 10:33 AM

If Miyamoto Musashi ranked one of the geartest swordsmen in Japan, who uses Nito, then I see no reason for those Ito players to bag nito out.

Nito kendo and Musashi have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Halcyon

27th November 2006, 11:09 AM

Thats a good question, I would think it wouldn't matter, because you can change from chudan to Jodan at any time you please.
In theory, yes, but in practice there are a few unspoken guidelines for shiai that don't really rise to the level of rules.

1. You can start in chudan and later go into jodan. But if you start in jodan, you'd better end in jodan. It gives the impression that you're coming down into chudan because your arms are tired.

2. If you start in chudan, don't go into jodan immediately after you lose a point. It gives the impression that you're grabbing at straws, i.e. you're chudan isn't good enough to beat your opponent, so you're getting desperate.

3. Generally speaking, if you start in chudan, only go into jodan after you earn a point or during the middle of a bout to try something different.

Again, these aren't hard-and-fast rules, but guidelines to follow if you don't want to telegraph your weaknesses.

emitbrownne

27th November 2006, 08:18 PM

Doing Jodan is tiring and frustrating, and i love every minute of it.
SNAP! (sort of)
Doing Nito is tiring and frustrating, and I love every minute of it..
:silly:

ScottUK

27th November 2006, 09:35 PM

Due to my love of nito kenjutsu, I would love to have a go at nito kendo.

Awooga Guy

27th November 2006, 10:03 PM

Wot Scott said :)

That is all.

Shazzanzzz

27th November 2006, 10:44 PM

what happens if in shiai, you drop the small sword (shoto?) by accident? would you be allowed to go into chudan with the 37 shinai? which would be a pretty big advantage to say the least.

ScottUK

27th November 2006, 10:49 PM

Nonsense. I have a biiiiig reach advantage over most people, but they still kick me all over the shiaijo... :D

Neil Gendzwill

27th November 2006, 11:04 PM

what happens if in shiai, you drop the small sword (shoto?) by accident? would you be allowed to go into chudan with the 37 shinai? which would be a pretty big advantage to say the least.
I'd say dropping the shoto would be hansoku. Or at least that's the way I'd call it if I ever officiated a nito match. One of the problems for playing nito is that most of the shimpan, like me, don't have much experience judging nito.

emitbrownne

28th November 2006, 12:07 AM

what happens if in shiai, you drop the small sword (shoto?) by accident? would you be allowed to go into chudan with the 37 shinai? which would be a pretty big advantage to say the least.

I am of the understanding that the loss of either or both of your Shinai is hansoku.

I would be totally embarrassed if it happened to me (and it has more than once), but if the judge/ref didnt call it then I would use the remaining sword as best I could.

JSchmidt

28th November 2006, 12:34 AM

I am of the understanding that the loss of either or both of your Shinai is hansoku.

I would be totally embarrassed if it happened to me (and it has more than once), but if the judge/ref didnt call it then I would use the remaining sword as best I could.

You are not allowed to fight with only the daito or shoto. If one of them breaks and you don't have a replacement, you will forfeit the match, so I'm fairly confident that dropping either one would instantly result in a hansoku.

ahmed61086

28th November 2006, 01:57 AM

You are not allowed to fight with only the daito or shoto. If one of them breaks and you don't have a replacement, you will forfeit the match, so I'm fairly confident that dropping either one would instantly result in a hansoku.

Back to the previous question...if yo udont have a daito to replace the broken one, and you have a 39 shinia instead, can you fight the rest of the match in Chudan instead of forfeiting.

Lloromannic

28th November 2006, 05:34 AM

Charlie

29th November 2006, 05:38 AM

Nitoh is Satan's love child because both sides of men are covered, both kotes out of reach, doh is difficult to reach, and tsuki is, well, tsuki. Plus, tsuba-zeriai is a drag and hiki-waza hard to pull off. Clearly, the work of an infernal hand, you can almost hear his demonic laughter. :D

Paikea

29th November 2006, 06:53 AM

...and it's just a whole lot of moving bamboo to deal with.

Ignatz

29th November 2006, 07:53 AM

You are not allowed to fight with only the daito or shoto. If one of them breaks and you don't have a replacement, you will forfeit the match, so I'm fairly confident that dropping either one would instantly result in a hansoku.
Regarding forfeit, is that one of those "unwritten" rules? Can you point me to the regulation that says that? I'm going to look too.

ahmed61086

29th November 2006, 09:18 AM

Back to the previous question...if yo udont have a daito to replace the broken one, and you have a 39 shinia instead, can you fight the rest of the match in Chudan instead of forfeiting.

Wow, I cant believe someone gave me negative rep points for asking a legitimate question. Sure, you will forfeit any match if you dont have a shinia back up. But what if you do have a shinia back up, of the size of 39. Then you do have a back up. Plus he was a coward and didn't have the ballz to leave his name. Good job, buddy.

ben

29th November 2006, 09:30 AM

...and it's just a whole lot of moving bamboo to deal with.

Mental image of Robbie the Robot: "Danger, danger! Do not approach!"

b :D

Lloromannic

29th November 2006, 10:02 AM

Wow, I cant believe someone gave me negative rep points for asking a legitimate question. Sure, you will forfeit any match if you dont have a shinia back up. But what if you do have a shinia back up, of the size of 39. Then you do have a back up. Plus he was a coward and didn't have the ballz to leave his name. Good job, buddy.

just to clarify, as bart simpson once said: Wasn't me

Ignatz

29th November 2006, 10:10 AM

. . .If one of them breaks and you don't have a replacement, you will forfeit the match. . .
OK, I checked my handy dandy rule book and found no such rule that would prohibit changing to a 39 and finishing the match if your shoto or 37 broke and you did not have a replacement.

ahmed61086

29th November 2006, 11:23 AM

just to clarify, as bart simpson once said: Wasn't me

I wasn't accusing you, even though I was suspicous.

Halcyon

29th November 2006, 01:04 PM

OK, I checked my handy dandy rule book and found no such rule that would prohibit changing to a 39 and finishing the match if your shoto or 37 broke and you did not have a replacement.
I presume you're talking about switching to a 39 and then playing itto, right? Coz the ZNKR rule book clearly states that in nito, the daito can be a maximum of 114 cm, which is a 37.

But all that aside, can you imagine what a doodle-head you'd look like if you had to swtich from nito to itto because you didn't have a replacement shinai. Helloooo. Embarrassing.

Ignatz

29th November 2006, 01:11 PM

I presume you're talking about switching to a 39 and then playing itto, right? Coz the ZNKR rule book clearly states that in nito, the daito can be a maximum of 114 cm, which is a 37.

But all that aside, can you imagine what a doodle-head you'd look like if you had to swtich from nito to itto because you didn't have a replacement shinai. Helloooo. Embarrassing.
I think the question was, if you break your shoto or daito and do not have a replacement can you switch to itto with a 39.

There were two authoritarian answers to the efect that should you not have a replacement you forfeit.

I can find no such rule. Embarrsment aside, if you only have one 37 and you break it, there seems to be no prohibition against switching to itto with a standard 39.

Of course, if for some reason you failed to check in the 39 at the shinai inspection and someone noticed it, then you would forfeit.

ahmed61086

29th November 2006, 02:06 PM

I wanna thank peter and Mr. softy for the pos. rep points. Thanks guys :).

Kingofmyrrh

29th November 2006, 02:47 PM

I think the question was, if you break your shoto or daito and do not have a replacement can you switch to itto with a 39.

There were two authoritarian answers to the efect that should you not have a replacement you forfeit.

I can find no such rule. Embarrsment aside, if you only have one 37 and you break it, there seems to be no prohibition against switching to itto with a standard 39.

Of course, if for some reason you failed to check in the 39 at the shinai inspection and someone noticed it, then you would forfeit.
This type of rule tends to fall under "taikai rules" instead of "shiai rules". In other words, it depends on what the organiser of the competition has stipulated. For large organisations, for example the Japanese high school kendo federation (can't be bothered to look up the name at the moment), competitions will generally be run according to their own set of standard taikai rules (although I believe that these very rules mean that you can't use nito in competition before entering university). For competitions in the UK and elsewhere, it seems quite probable that no one would specify these kind of details. As far as Japan goes, I am reasonably confident that it is customary not to allow switching between itto and nito within a single match, although for the reasons described above there could well be exceptions. Other rules, such as length of match or number of people per team, are also left to the discretion of the organiser of the taikai, so I don't think it's a case of this situation having slipped through the ZNKR/FIK net.
I'm not 100% confident though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.