How Far Can I Go? (long)

[srt]

Question to all you sempai/sensei out there (pretty much everyone, since I'm still pretty new at this).

Kendo seems to have two parts, the basic concepts and wazas, and the competition/shiai component. Are these inseperably related, or is it possible to distinguish the two components? I guess what I'm asking is how far can I go with good fundamentals and wazas?

Having taken up kendo a bit later in life (and rounder in shape) than many in my dojo I can't help but compare myself, especially during keiko, with the 20-somethings that make up most of my sempai and even a couple of the senseis. I don't foresee ever being as quick or energetic as them, or even giving them a run for their money in shiai (at this point I just try not to embarass myself), so will this prove a limitation in the future? How far in kendo can one progress, even if one is what I would consider "non-competitive" as far as tournaments etc.

I realize this probably isn't an issue I should be pondering. I should just be concentrating on learning kendo fundamentals, but as an engineer I tend to be somewhat of a realist, and I can't help but look 5, 10, 20 years down the road. I know it won't matter this fall when I test for 5-kyu, and probably not for a couple of years (at least) while I'm testing for 4-, 3-, and 2-kyu, but how about at the ikkyu level? the shodan level? How about nidan and sandan? Surely at some point, not being very competitive (with others at the same level) becomes a limitation; after all I can't imagine there's a hachidan sensei who hasn't won some tournament at some point.

Hopefully these questions are clear, as is the intent.

Thanks for any thoughts.

steve

[slidercrank]

Since you asked how far you can go, the answer is, of course, however far your effort and perseverance will take you.

If you had asked how fast you could get to X, where X is a kyu/dan level, then the answer would become dependent on several variables, of which age and physical conditioning are some, but your personal effort and perseverance still dominate over other factors.

Everyone I know who practices hard and consistently has improved. Of those who have consitently improved, the only common denominator amongst them is their dedication to kendo.

Hope this helps.

[Old Warrior]

As a relative beginner (8 months of training) and an old guy, I asked the precisely same question. My instructor (a well respected 7th dan) gave me the following answer (translated to me approximately as follows):

First you learn the techniques, then we modify them to suit your age and skill strengths. You will never be as fast as the kids, but its not all about being fast, it's about being smart. Now practice.

[Kendoka]

Good replies above !

There really is only one part of kendo, IMHO.

But that single part includes many aspects.

If you learn and practice to do good and correct kendo, then shiai results (at you level) with look after themselves.

Gambatte!!

Richard

[kendomushi]

When I began kendo, I met a man, Kobayashi sensei, he was in his 70's, had begun kendo around the age of 50 and was a 5 dan at the time. He seemed to have parkinsons disease, hands always shaking, except when he took hold of a shinai. Then he became a rock solid 20 year old. When he passed away a few years ago, he was a 6 dan.
My point, you can go as far as you want to go. It might be harder for us who start our older, but the only limits most of us really have is our own self perception. Don't worry about how good you are in either keiko or shiai, worry only about doing your best.

[Karaken]

Originally posted by srt
Question to all you sempai/sensei out there (pretty much everyone, since I'm still pretty new at this).

Kendo seems to have two parts, the basic concepts and wazas, and the competition/shiai component. Are these inseperably related, or is it possible to distinguish the two components? I guess what I'm asking is how far can I go with good fundamentals and wazas?

Having taken up kendo a bit later in life (and rounder in shape) than many in my dojo I can't help but compare myself, especially during keiko, with the 20-somethings that make up most of my sempai and even a couple of the senseis. I don't foresee ever being as quick or energetic as them, or even giving them a run for their money in shiai (at this point I just try not to embarass myself), so will this prove a limitation in the future? How far in kendo can one progress, even if one is what I would consider "non-competitive" as far as tournaments etc.

I realize this probably isn't an issue I should be pondering. I should just be concentrating on learning kendo fundamentals, but as an engineer I tend to be somewhat of a realist, and I can't help but look 5, 10, 20 years down the road. I know it won't matter this fall when I test for 5-kyu, and probably not for a couple of years (at least) while I'm testing for 4-, 3-, and 2-kyu, but how about at the ikkyu level? the shodan level? How about nidan and sandan? Surely at some point, not being very competitive (with others at the same level) becomes a limitation; after all I can't imagine there's a hachidan sensei who hasn't won some tournament at some point.

Hopefully these questions are clear, as is the intent.

Thanks for any thoughts.

steve

Taken up Kendo myself late ( 42 ), having Engineering background ( EE ) and having a round shape myself at 48, I should have asked myself the same question. But I didn't. Not because I thought I can match 20 year old fanatics who practice 5 times a week ( I do once or twice a week ) but becasue I didn't expect much from Kendo. I just though it'd be better than not doign anything physically - I was bored in health club. That was 6 years ago.. I'm 3 dan now beating many higher ranking people and much younger guys.. ( Losing too ). Age has it's advantages as well as it's disadvantages in my opinion. I think older people are wiser and understand what sensei's saying better than full hormoned young guys.. i.e. Don't hit so hard, don't try to hit so quickly and repeatedly, it's all in the timing, practice basics etc..

Can we progress? - absolutely, can we win World Championship - probably not.. But somewhere in between, we should be able to find satisfaction of being able to improve...

Center is better

[Neil Gendzwill]

Realistically, starting late and training in North America I think rokudan (6th) is maybe as far as you might go. I think any higher really requires exceptional talent and the inherent edge starting as a child gives you. There's been some research to show that activities learned at a young age actually get hard-wired into your brain, whereas activities learned later are analogous to programming. You can get very good, excellent even, but don't have any real chance to achieve the true upper echelons.

I know when I play some of these guys that have been running around the dojo since they were 3 that I can never match their fluid movement and instinctive reactions. But through hard work and sheer bullheadedness, I've been able to get reasonably good.

It comes down to the essential principle of kendo: don't give up.

[Kiki]

Good thread. I feel very encouraged. Sometimes there is a negative voice in my head telling me I should just stay in the kyu because I’ll never be able to compete with those who had an early start. I am ignoring this voice and going for shodan in the Fall.

Kobayashi sensei’s story is one to remember.
Thanks for the motivation not to get swayed by my negativity.
After all I’m only 43 years young!

[srt]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm glad to get any encouragement I can get since about the only thing I have going for me (kendo-wise) is a desire to improve and a fairly good ability to take instruction. Hopefully the lack of physical strength and aerobic stamina (coupled with the lightining-like reflexes of a three-toed sloth) won't prove limiting factors for many years to come.

[Inouye02]

go for it KiKi... just keep practicing hard and you'll see your kendo improve to where you can compete with the younger group....

p.s. Thanks for the video taping at the Navy keiko..

jamie

[Kiki]

Hai!!

False
Expectation
Appearing
Real

[rin-chan]

Question to all you sempai/sensei out there (pretty much everyone, since I'm still pretty new at this).

Kendo seems to have two parts, the basic concepts and wazas, and the competition/shiai component. Are these inseperably related, or is it possible to distinguish the two components? I guess what I'm asking is how far can I go with good fundamentals and wazas?

Having taken up kendo a bit later in life (and rounder in shape) than many in my dojo I can't help but compare myself, especially during keiko, with the 20-somethings that make up most of my sempai and even a couple of the senseis. I don't foresee ever being as quick or energetic as them, or even giving them a run for their money in shiai (at this point I just try not to embarass myself), so will this prove a limitation in the future? How far in kendo can one progress, even if one is what I would consider "non-competitive" as far as tournaments etc.

I realize this probably isn't an issue I should be pondering. I should just be concentrating on learning kendo fundamentals, but as an engineer I tend to be somewhat of a realist, and I can't help but look 5, 10, 20 years down the road. I know it won't matter this fall when I test for 5-kyu, and probably not for a couple of years (at least) while I'm testing for 4-, 3-, and 2-kyu, but how about at the ikkyu level? the shodan level? How about nidan and sandan? Surely at some point, not being very competitive (with others at the same level) becomes a limitation; after all I can't imagine there's a hachidan sensei who hasn't won some tournament at some point.

Hopefully these questions are clear, as is the intent.

Thanks for any thoughts.

steve

I think that kendo has to do more with the mind than with how old you are.
I have always thought that if you concentrated and tried hard you could do it well. I think that if you become competitive you might get some bad habits that would work for shiai but would not be good kendo. My sensei says that a person dosent have to be young or competitive to be good. He said that at testing they would look at how good your strikes and stuff like that. It really depends on how much you love kendo and how dedicated you are to it.
Well thats what I think but being a 14 year old with not much experiance(sp?) I might be wrong.

[Hai_hai]

...I realize this probably isn't an issue I should be pondering. I should just be concentrating on learning kendo fundamentals, but as an engineer I tend to be somewhat of a realist, and I can't help but look 5, 10, 20 years down the road...

20 years down the road, you will find that you wasted your time on kendo and should have spent that time volunteering your time helping the homeless.

[isi]

20 years down the road, you will find that you wasted your time on kendo and should have spent that time volunteering your time helping the homeless.
Just too funny.

[ALI G]

20 years down the road, you will find that you wasted your time on kendo and should have spent that time volunteering your time helping the homeless.
Itz 2 badz dat youz onlyz madez it .5 yearz B-4 Youz quitz....Onlyz...19.5 yearz 2 go....

[Yowai]

Who cares? Continue Kendo as long as you enjoy it. If, after 20 years, you realized that you are not enjoying practices, quit without regret.

Do people look at their past and say, "I wasted all my time going on those stupid hiking trips that I enjoyed?"

[stuartwilson]

Being 48, a slow-to-advance beginner (2 years), and a rotund engineer, I can really relate to this thread. Let me share three things from my limited experience.

1. I have seen multiple practitioners, older than me, who could dominate not just me, but my senseis as well, without moving much. These guys can move their shinai so fast that I see it and feel the kote strike about the same time. (I feel like the guy in Rush Hour - "All right. Which one of y'all hit me?")

Granted, this takes A LOT of practice, but it doesn't require being in 25 year old Navy Seal shape. I saw one of these "old guys" evade kote after kote from one of my sensei while seeming to remain motionless. (All he was doing was rotating his right hand inward, just enough.) I have done Jigeiko with them found myself being run all over the floor while, again, the "old guy" was hardly moving at all, much less sweating.

2. Like everything else, my kendo seems to progress in quantized states. I've hit multiple plateaus and just couldn't seem to improve for a while. I have also felt like I was going backwards, when correcting a bad habit that had crept into my footwork, or when simply having a bad day.

3. Desire to improve my kendo has been a great motivator to become less rotund and get in better shape.

4. When I fight a youngster with roughtly the same experience level, I usually come out better than expected. The key to this is having a calm mind. There is an old story that applies:

An old farmer somehow managed to offend a samurai, who told him that he was without honor and to meet him the next morning for a swordfight. The farmer, in a panic, sought out a sensei and explained his situation. "Look," the sensei told him, "you can't possibly learn enough to save yourself overnight, so face it, you are going to die. The best thing you can do is to learn how to do it with dignity." So the sensei spent all night teaching the farmer nothing but jodan. The next morning, the farmer went to the appointed place. As the samurai approached, he assumed the kamae. The samurai eyed him for about a minute and then said, "I'm sorry. It seems that I have made a mistake," then turned and walked away.

[OSatsu Jin]

Realistically, starting late and training in North America I think rokudan (6th) is maybe as far as you might go.
Sandan in 6 years? Is that the norm? I am new at it...and although it's not too terribly important to me...Aikido is my main thing....of which I am approching Nidan. I also study Jyodo.

But it's nice to hit those milestones.

What is the normal timeframe for Shodan?

John

[meow]

Sandan in 6 years? Is that the norm? I am new at it...and although it's not too terribly important to me...Aikido is my main thing....of which I am approching Nidan. I also study Jyodo.

But it's nice to hit those milestones.

What is the normal timeframe for Shodan?

John
I think you misunderstood Neil. Neil meant that 6th dan (rokudan) is the highest level one can reach, when starting late with kendo.

I guess reaching sandan will take a lot more time than just 6 years.

greetings

meow