tenouchi.. again..

[bullet08]

when do you use tenouchi other then during the contact for the cut? reason i ask this is i noticed that when receiving strike during kirikaeshi, if i put tension into the shinai, the 'block' seems to be more solid. and, this prevents the strike, even from people who hammer away, from coming in. if that's the case, shouldn't tenouchi or something similar be used during the block and certain waza like harai waza and so on?
the main reason for asking this is when i practice suriage waza with one of the sempai, he is so strong, then my suriage waza doesn't work on him. his shinai will not move out of the way, but coming in straight. i'm thinking if i start the waza with tenouchi it might work better.. but haven't had chance to test this out.

pete

[Shazzanzzz]

Every waza is done with tenouchi. Moving your arms is too slow, they're all on your fingers and wrist.

if your opponent holds shinai really strong, you can try to use suriage the opposite way, like doing suriage on the left and go for men instead of kote, since he'll try to push down a little and it'll give you a little opening to go for men.

[Toshiro Mifune]

Every waza is done with tenouchi. Moving your arms is too slow, they're all on your fingers and wrist.

if your opponent holds shinai really strong, you can try to use suriage the opposite way, like doing suriage on the left and go for men instead of kote, since he'll try to push down a little and it'll give you a little opening to go for men.

Shazzspaz again doesn't know what he is talking about so I wouldn't listen to him. I think it would be best you think more why your suriage is not working. It could be a number or reasons or you just need more practice. Maybe if you try it slow and figure out the problem. I would think for myself than ask my Sensei, instructor, seniors, etc.

[Neil Gendzwill]

when do you use tenouchi other then during the contact for the cut? reason i ask this is i noticed that when receiving strike during kirikaeshi, if i put tension into the shinai, the 'block' seems to be more solid. and, this prevents the strike, even from people who hammer away, from coming in. if that's the case, shouldn't tenouchi or something similar be used during the block and certain waza like harai waza and so on?
Yes. When you block for kirikaeshi, try to time it so that your shinai moves into his, not just waiting there. At that point, you can either "catch" his cut or attack his cut with your own cut. Either way, tenouchi is useful.

There's not a whole lot of difference between the downwards version of harai-men and kote-men. Either way, use tenouchi on the first cut.

the main reason for asking this is when i practice suriage waza with one of the sempai, he is so strong, then my suriage waza doesn't work on him. his shinai will not move out of the way, but coming in straight. i'm thinking if i start the waza with tenouchi it might work better.. but haven't had chance to test this out.Try it and see. There's definitely wrist and hand action involved.

[ReKru]

I wouldn't listen to anyone on interweb boards, but then again thar interweb would be a damn quiet place.

I found timing and the place where your and your opponents shinai make contact (for lack of better words - where the point of your shinai hits what point on your opponents shinai) to play an important role in the success of suriage.
It's a thing of practice - we've put a bit of emphasis on suriage (oji waza in general) regularly for half a year now in our training and I still kinda suck at it, but on a much higher level (as in 1/10 works nicely).

[Shazzanzzz]

Shazzspaz again doesn't know what he is talking about so I wouldn't listen to him. I think it would be best you think more why your suriage is not working. It could be a number or reasons or you just need more practice. Maybe if you try it slow and figure out the problem. I would think for myself than ask my Sensei, instructor, seniors, etc.

Maybe you're just slow in the head. Obviously you don't know how to do any wazas if you don't use tenouchi on them. Wait... I forgot... you don't.

[tango]

Pete --
I can only speak of my own experience, but suriage in keiko is just not as simple as kendo kata gohonme (#5) will have everyone believe.

It took me a solid year and half (or so) to get fairly proficient at it. I also had to watch other people do it live (who knew how to really do it well... most notably, Ken Tamura from GKA several years ago).. In fact, I don't think anybody else in our dojo uses it... certainly not with the regularity that I attempt it.

I got hit A LOT when I was trying to develop suriage waza... and occasionally, I still do get hit. I'm more successful with it against nidan and below... 3.dan+ gets trickier for me because of the speed at which that level of kendoka is moving forward ... so I'm still in a phase of trying to develop it.

I think it just takes a lot, lot, lot of practice... eventually, you'll figure it out.
The most simple explanation of how to do it was said by Neil... "There's definitely wrist and hand action involved.."

For me, I try to make it small and quick with a lot of snap. As Neil says, try it and see... really work it with the kyu-ranked guys to try and help develop timing and such... you might have more success with a slower, bigger technique with them. Over a little bit of time, you can try to develop smaller, quicker waza with the higher-ranked guys. Timing is obviously important, but distance is just as important... and where you hit the opponent's shinai plays not a slight factor as well (IMO)

Big suriage waza can difficult with guys who have good forward speed. You can probably get in the suriage... the problem is making the men strike afterwards. Having quick hands/quick strike obviously can help in this area.. and again, proper maai is really important here.

My recommendation is just to do it a LOT during jigeiko. A LOT. Every match... try it 3 or 4 times each jigeiko. If it's something you guys practice during kihon and such, then really take it seriously and pretend it's jigeiko.

Good luck... see you at the tournament this weekend!

[Toshiro Mifune]

Maybe you're just slow in the head. Obviously you don't know how to do any wazas if you don't use tenouchi on them. Wait... I forgot... you don't.

Shazzspaz :rolleyes:

I didn't say don't use tenouchi but your answers always involve some cheap technique you think that is going to work. But thanks for showing that you have no class if I'm slow in the head than you are just we-todd-ed(yes I know it is spelled wrong, it is joke maybe somebody can explain it to you. By the way your tenouchi is messed up with those girly white kote gloves you wear.

Love,

Toshiro Mifune

P.S. Stop wasting Siemens money and get back to work.

[MikeW]

As several others have said... yes tenouchi is important pretty much any time there is sword contact. Also you may want to make sure your suriage is making contact with the aite's shinai at a good deep position to give more angle of deflection (ie don't try suriage where your shinai is just making contact with the aite's shinai out on the kensen).

[Halcyon]

I got hit A LOT when I was trying to develop suriage waza... and occasionally, I still do get hit. I'm more successful with it against nidan and below... 3.dan+ gets trickier for me because of the speed at which that level of kendoka is moving forward ... so I'm still in a phase of trying to develop it.
It's actually the opposite with me. I find it even more difficult to do suriage against lower-ranked people who have very large (and generally slower) swings.

Speaking of kirikaeshi, in addition to using tenouchi, there's another thing the motodachi should do to maximize what he/she gets out of kirikaeshi. That is, after you receive the strike with tenouchi, there's a slight forward motion of your shinai toward the center before moving it to the other side. It's a good exercise for learning how to dominate center, according to my sensei. This also prevents the motodachi from receiving kirikaeshi in that annoying way where you hit the shinai away -- very tough on the attacker's wrists.

[The great I AM]

Something I try to think of when doing suriage is replacing the target they are going for with your shinai. For instance, if they are going for my kote, I would move my shinai so that roughly the middle of it is where my opponents shinai will be as he strikes my kote. The rest is then up to me! Don't know if that'll help, but it was a small thing that had a good effect for me.

[tango]

It's actually the opposite with me. I find it even more difficult to do suriage against lower-ranked people who have very large (and generally slower) swings.

At first, that was true for me, too... and on occasion, somebody can still get me with a really big, slow swing...

It's how I learned to develop proper timing... I had to learn to WAIT before doing the waza and striking... Just like kendo kata #5...

the concept of "waiting for the strike" however, diminishes greatly as you have to deal with higher-ranked/speedier players...

anyway, such has been my experience..
I think it's good to play the slow game with the kyu ranks at first and then just try and adapt the waza to faster players.. IMO.

[tango]

Something I try to think of when doing suriage is replacing the target they are going for with your shinai. For instance, if they are going for my kote, I would move my shinai so that roughly the middle of it is where my opponents shinai will be as he strikes my kote. The rest is then up to me! Don't know if that'll help, but it was a small thing that had a good effect for me.

FWIW, I have never been able to do kote-suriage-anything against higher-ranked players... guess I'm just slow in my old age... In that case, I sometimes just attempt kote-kaeishi-something (normally men) with very limited success... distance is a big problem for me in that situation..

[Shazzanzzz]

Something I try to think of when doing suriage is replacing the target they are going for with your shinai. For instance, if they are going for my kote, I would move my shinai so that roughly the middle of it is where my opponents shinai will be as he strikes my kote. The rest is then up to me! Don't know if that'll help, but it was a small thing that had a good effect for me.

sounds more like kaeshi waza to me... although for me also, when i do stuff full speed, kaeshi and suriage becomes the same thing (as a counter). I acutally had an arguement with a friend before whither the kaeshi men i do is suriage or kaeshi men... But for me, the hand motions are different between the two, although they might look very much alike to others.

[The great I AM]

sounds more like kaeshi waza to me... although for me also, when i do stuff full speed, kaeshi and suriage becomes the same thing (as a counter). I acutally had an arguement with a friend before whither the kaeshi men i do is suriage or kaeshi men... But for me, the hand motions are different between the two, although they might look very much alike to others.Well its not. I was talking in the context of suriage waza. I didn't even mention kaeshi waza. As far as I am concerned, with either suriage waza, OR kaeshi waza for that matter, if your not using the middle of the "body" of your shinai you ain't doing it right.

[bullet08]

so i understand now that whenever there is contact with aite's shinai, there should be a tenouchi.

but the talk about suriage waza is making not much sense to me. the way i was told to do the suriage is wait till the aite's shinai is coming in (down stroke) and deflect the aite's shinai with mine. the contact point should be close to the tsuba on aite's shinai. wasn't really told which part of my shinai should make the contact with aite's shinai.

last few practice i was at in our general practice, the men-suriage-men was done with slight step back to give room to make good contact with target. i found that side step works as well.

but the talk about the "body" of the shinai.. i'm not understanding too well.. if i make contact with middle of my shinai and towards the tsuba of aite's shinai, shouldn't that put me too close to the aite for proper strike?

pete

[The great I AM]

but the talk about the "body" of the shinai.. i'm not understanding too well.. if i make contact with middle of my shinai and towards the tsuba of aite's shinai, shouldn't that put me too close to the aite for proper strike?I don't think so, at least not for me. Without seeing I can't be sure, but it *sounds* like your doing it as suriage then men, as opposed to suriage-men. I try to do the suriage as part of the men-uchi, and also don't step forward until I have made contact with the men, essentially doing fumikomi on the spot then only going through after I'm done.

[Neil Gendzwill]

the way i was told to do the suriage is wait till the aite's shinai is coming in (down stroke) and deflect the aite's shinai with mine. the contact point should be close to the tsuba on aite's shinai. wasn't really told which part of my shinai should make the contact with aite's shinai.
Suri-age means "sliding up". There isn't a single contact point, you catch the incoming cut and it slides along your shinai as you raise. If the release point is near the aite's tsuba, probably you are too close to hit. If you only get the tip, then it's not very effective. So the contact is over a length of the shinai somewhere in the middle.

ETA - Gibbo got in before I did, but I agree with him. The suriage part is simply the raising of your shinai towards the target - it's doing double duty. Then all you need to do is bring it down to hit the target.

[Toshiro Mifune]

sounds more like kaeshi waza to me... although for me also, when i do stuff full speed, kaeshi and suriage becomes the same thing (as a counter). I acutally had an arguement with a friend before whither the kaeshi men i do is suriage or kaeshi men... But for me, the hand motions are different between the two, although they might look very much alike to others.

I'm back Shazzspaz, :ogre:

You don't do suriage you do kaeshi most likely because you are afraid of receiving a strike. This is an example of suriage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoXt-1lpTiQ

When you do your so called "suriage" which is really kaeshi your shinai is almost parallel to the floor. Because you are scared to recieve men and right kote. You wait for the person to strike and more than not it results in you striking a weak men with no zanshin and you barely move your body.

Just watch the match and you can see your "suriage" . For those of you at home Shazzspaz has the white gi and is wearing the red taski:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKuVhjzfEJE

Your friendly neighborhood kendoka,
~Toshiro Mifune

P.S. The speed is messed up Shazzspaz is not that fast.

[tango]

I agree with Gibbo and Neil...

especially Gibbo's point about it sounding like you're doing suriage...then men... rather than.. suriage-men.

Pete, if you're still confused by Saturday, I'll track you down and see what it is you're talking about... Surely somebody at TKI can get you squared away on this, though..

[bullet08]

I agree with Gibbo and Neil...

especially Gibbo's point about it sounding like you're doing suriage...then men... rather than.. suriage-men.

Pete, if you're still confused by Saturday, I'll track you down and see what it is you're talking about... Surely somebody at TKI can get you squared away on this, though..

yupe, i'll try talking to one of the sempai this week on it. maybe i can catch yoshida-sensei on friday night over a pint or two.. :)

pete

[tango]

clear video (~20 seconds)... suriage men:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh98ui-nS64

Pete... watch this one... note where sensei (at the very beginning) shows where the suriage 'block' lands....

[tango]

Just watch the match and you can see your "suriage" . For those of you at home Shazzspaz has the white gi and is wearing the red taski:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKuVhjzfEJE

Your friendly neighborhood kendoka,
~Toshiro Mifune

P.S. The speed is messed up Shazzspaz is not that fast.


I must admit... the link here, around the 5-6 second mark, looks like anything BUT suriage waza to me.
...and again at the ~32-33 second mark...


(not trying to start a flame war here, btw)..

[bullet08]

clear video (~20 seconds)... suriage men:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh98ui-nS64

Pete... watch this one... note where sensei (at the very beginning) shows where the suriage 'block' lands....

ok, that video is rather clear as to what needs to be done. and coming from 9 dan sensei.. i'll buy it.

pete

[Masahiro]

"tenouchi" is the gripping and also the releasing of the grip of your hands. People sometimes confuse the term tenouchi with just "gripping" the shinai. It doesn't just mean suddenly gripping either, it's the "slow" gripping and how fast you can grip it "slowly" and release that grip slowly. (it's hard to explain it on line) anyways, just try to relax your wrist.

[tango]

"tenouchi" is the gripping and also the releasing of the grip of your hands. People sometimes confuse the term tenouchi with just "gripping" the shinai. It doesn't just mean suddenly gripping either, it's the "slow" gripping and how fast you can grip it "slowly" and release that grip slowly. (it's hard to explain it on line) anyways, just try to relax your wrist.


I think the point that's trying to be made is that a weak/relaxed wrist at the moment of truth (i.e., when suriage waza is actually being applied) can lead to a(n) weak/ineffective waza that gets completely destroyed by a strong men (for example) from motodachi.

[Toshiro Mifune]

I think we can all agree the video of the 9th Dan is the proper way to do suriage. Unless Saimura Goro, 10th dan and Mochida Seiji, 10th dan (they are not alive for the newbies) have a clear video on youtube where they explain the proper way to do suriage.

So can I get a Kendo-World Forum Man Law? :beard:

Toshiro Mifune

[pgsmith]

So can I get a Kendo-World Forum Man Law?
OK, here you go ... No one under sandan should be giving advice on proper technique!

There's a good KW man law for you! :D

[Paikea]

Here's one: Never, NEVER diss your dojomates in a public forum. Not even if he is a nitwit.

[Masahiro]

i've got a rule. people who reach beyond 500 post counts should post video clips of themselves doing kendo. (be it keiko in the dojo, shiai match or whatever) so that way we can just ignore some people when they open their mouth.

[Masahiro]

I think the point that's trying to be made is that a weak/relaxed wrist at the moment of truth (i.e., when suriage waza is actually being applied) can lead to a(n) weak/ineffective waza that gets completely destroyed by a strong men (for example) from motodachi.

that's your point, not mine.

[Paikea]

i've got a rule. people who reach beyond 500 post counts should post video clips of themselves doing kendo. (be it keiko in the dojo, shiai match or whatever) so that way we can just ignore some people when they open their mouth.Where's yours?

[Masahiro]

post #25 on this thread. without affirming or denying the point Tango is trying to make. just asserting what he said isn't my point. :cool:

[MrChow]

OK, here you go ... No one under sandan should be giving advice on proper technique!

There's a good KW man law for you! :D

I second this motion.

[tango]

post #25 on this thread. without affirming or denying the point Tango is trying to make. just asserting what he said isn't my point. :cool:

no problemo... i think that's just the way i was reading pete's original post..

it's cool.

[ahmed61086]

i've got a rule. people who reach beyond 500 post counts should post video clips of themselves doing kendo. (be it keiko in the dojo, shiai match or whatever) so that way we can just ignore some people when they open their mouth.

Ill have one up soon, :calm: .

[Kingofmyrrh]

I think we can all agree the video of the 9th Dan is the proper way to do suriage. Unless Saimura Goro, 10th dan and Mochida Seiji, 10th dan (they are not alive for the newbies) have a clear video on youtube where they explain the proper way to do suriage.

So can I get a Kendo-World Forum Man Law? :beard:

Toshiro Mifune

You don't even have to go to Youtube. Just go to the download section of the site and you will find demonstrations of both men-suriage-men and kote-suriage-kote by those very men waiting for you. Somehow I don't think that's the kind of help you need though...

[Shazzanzzz]

I must admit... the link here, around the 5-6 second mark, looks like anything BUT suriage waza to me.
...and again at the ~32-33 second mark...


(not trying to start a flame war here, btw)..

good one toshi wanna be (not to you tango).

If you wanna look at the right speed, it's posted on the virginia tech kendo website. you can see how fast i really am, which is around the same as youtube video.

Anyways, i would say what i do is kaeshi on that video. I always say i don't do suriage, it's not me who says it. Although that match i was playing super safe so i was blocking a little more on the counters.

Here is a video of toshi wanna be: he's the one with the white flag. Notice the nice de-kote he got scored on, haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JKeRZthMeo&mode=related&search=

[Neil Gendzwill]

Here's my law - attack the argument, not the person, or I'm gonna start bustin' heads. If you have a valid point, make it, don't start in with insults.

ETA:

Anyways, i would say what i do is kaeshi on that video. I always say i don't do suriage, it's not me who says it. Although that match i was playing super safe so i was blocking a little more on the counters.I didn't see any kaeshi-waza or suriage-waza from you in that video. I saw a lot of block, then hit. You just raise your hands and put the shinai sideways to catch the aite's shinai on the omote side, then go forward still omote to try men. If it was kaeshi-waza, at least in my understanding, there would be a) continuous motion into the cut and b) shinai rotation involved so that you cut on the ura side (in your case). If it was suriage-waza there would be a sliding action, or at the very least your kensen would not go so far right, and also continuous motion from the shinai contact into the cut.

[Toshiro Mifune]

Here's my law - attack the argument, not the person, or I'm gonna start bustin' heads. If you have a valid point, make it, don't start in with insults.

ETA:
I didn't see any kaeshi-waza or suriage-waza from you in that video. I saw a lot of block, then hit. You just raise your hands and put the shinai sideways to catch the aite's shinai on the omote side, then go forward still omote to try men. If it was kaeshi-waza, at least in my understanding, there would be a) continuous motion into the cut and b) shinai rotation involved so that you cut on the ura side (in your case). If it was suriage-waza there would be a sliding action, or at the very least your kensen would not go so far right, and also continuous motion from the shinai contact into the cut.

I agree with Neil but Spazzsnaz bought it to the pre-school level trying to insult my intellegence instead of addressing the comment. But Spazzsnaz should get accustomed to a comment from Toshiro Mifune. So I will second Neil's man law and follow it (the Burt Reynolds's of the KW Forum Table of the Squared Circle). Now can Spazznaz be a good little shodan and follow it too?

[Shazzanzzz]

Here's my law - attack the argument, not the person, or I'm gonna start bustin' heads. If you have a valid point, make it, don't start in with insults.

ETA:
I didn't see any kaeshi-waza or suriage-waza from you in that video. I saw a lot of block, then hit. You just raise your hands and put the shinai sideways to catch the aite's shinai on the omote side, then go forward still omote to try men. If it was kaeshi-waza, at least in my understanding, there would be a) continuous motion into the cut and b) shinai rotation involved so that you cut on the ura side (in your case). If it was suriage-waza there would be a sliding action, or at the very least your kensen would not go so far right, and also continuous motion from the shinai contact into the cut.

Thank you for your input Neil. You're helpful as always. I guess when I do do it really fast (shinai would be tilted a little to the right, but not nearly as much as in the video) it would be closer to suriage men. As i said already, i was being really safe that particular match because how the team matches was playing out, i didn't have to win, i just couldn't lose, a lot of cases i was intending to block, but i see that i can still try a men... so i did, that's why i wasn't positioning myself to go forward like i would if i was intending a kaeshi or suriage men from the start.

I always call it kaeshi men because my hand motions are most close to when i do kaeshi-doh, just i go for men instead of doh.

[Shazzanzzz]

how about the one at the 1-minute mark? i wasn't able to go forward, but, that's when i would say i was doing a kaeshi-men when i do that.

[tango]

how about the one at the 1-minute mark? i wasn't able to go forward, but, that's when i would say i was doing a kaeshi-men when i do that.

I looked at that part long and hard yesterday.. and just now (since you mentioned it again)..

It's really too difficult of an angle FOR ME to tell exactly what you did there.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I always call it kaeshi men because my hand motions are most close to when i do kaeshi-doh, just i go for men instead of doh.
When you do kaeshi doh, you are blocking on the omote side (with the left side of your shinai), and then there is a rotation and you hit doh on your left. If you were to do kaeshi-gyaku-doh, then you would block on the ura side first. Same with men, properly for kaeshi there would be a rotation and then hit men - think kata #4 (which is really uke nagashi in my view not kaeshi but the motion is related).

how about the one at the 1-minute mark? i wasn't able to go forward, but, that's when i would say i was doing a kaeshi-men when i do that.
Sorry, no access to youtube at work to check that out.

[tango]

btw.. I can't believe I can't find a decent video that shows a good, clear kaeshi-men... frustrating.
I have a video (of me when I was a new 2.dan I think) at home actually scoring one (which, IMO, should not have been scored).. but I know the technique there is clear (not trying to brag or anything).

argh.

[tango]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAV8PpnIBn8

The very end of this video (which has been seen numerous times, no doubt) shows kaeshi-dou (by Miyazaki)...

The thing with kaeshi-dou, though, is that (IMO), it doesn't really demonstrate the 'rotation' thing that Neil is talking about...

I assume everyone understands what Neil is saying.. I guess maybe it's harder to describe than show, but to give maybe a not-so-good description... if you hold a shinai straight out to the side and somebody hits it down, the energy causes your shinai to 'rotate' (or, perhaps, 'circle around')..

There's a difference between blocking, then hitting (as Neil pointed out earlier)... and allowing motodachi's shinai to hit yours in order to send your shinai around (full circle, rotation, whatever) in order to strike...

Maybe that's a bad way to describe it... sure would be nice if somebody had a clear video...

And I agree with Neil about kendo kata #4 (was gonna point that out earlier, but neglected)... not quite the same motion as kaeshi-men or kaeshi-dou, but, same concept/principle.