Should kote hurt?

[kartoffelngeist]

We were doing plain simple kote-uchi the other night, and it was painful.

I've always been under the impression that kote should be little more than a tap, but I'm not sure if that's me worrying about hurting people.

Should recieving kote be totally painless? That seems a lot to ask, but I wouldn't imagine it should be that hard either...

[bullet08]

it should hurt. wear kote pad.

pete

[Newbie]

From my experience, kote is really painful if you don't have your hands in the correct position on the shinai. I have a really bad habit of allowing my hands to roll so they're not on top of the shinai - very lazy of me. I've discovered that when we're received kote now I'll automatically make sure my hands are in the right place cos if they're in the correct position on the shinai it doesn't hurt at all. If they're in the wrong position it stings like a female canine.

I got a badly swollen wrist one training from a beginner who i thought was trying to bludgeon my wrist clean off my arm and so for a few training sessions I wore a wrist band. It was lovely and only the hardest baseball hitters in the beginners could hurt my wrist through it. I stopped wearing it as soon as my wrist was okay cos I knew that without the potential for a sore wrist if I wasn't holding my shinai properly, my hands would become very sloppy.

[Optomitrist]

There are a lot of things that would make kote hurt.

New bogu might not be worn in.
THe stitching (size) in the kote makes a big difference.
The quality of the kote.
The way you hold your arm to be hit.
And eventually you get used to it and it doesn't hurt as much.

And no, as far as I know every hit should not be just a tap, you are trying to freeking cut off their arm. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Even the best quality kote can't stop a strong hit from hurting, especially if it hits the joint. If I know I will be motodachi for a lot of kote-uchi, I put on a pad.

[akumalkenshi]

I was receiving some tips from a visiting senior kendoka, and among the details he shared was the correct tenouchi for kote, and exemplified the differences on when its properly done and when its not.

when its not, its like someone trying to splinter firewood, the shinai, continues pressing after it has hit.

with good tenouchi, the kensen of the shinai should bounce naturally back to chudan, menacing tsuki.

you can fell both, but most likely to get hurt from the first example.

my best regards

[sainueng]

One piece of advice I pass on is to squeeze the shinai, as if applying tenouchi, when you receive a kote. If your hand is relax and loose, it'll hurt even more.

But like others say, it should hurt, but not too much.

[bobdonny]

if its at the point where your wrist is bruised i would think a suriagi is acceptable, thats what we are encouraged to do..

[cesarekim]

Wrist pads are always a good thing to have in your bogu bag. Some sensei teach to cut to the bottom of the wrist and then to come back up to menace tsuki. It hurts like a "female canine" in Newbie speech. I'm guilty of this as well sometimes especially when I'm going full speed. Just thank God they didn't miss and hit you one on the elbow....

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

yes, it should hurt. if you wear this (http://www.e-bogu.com/Wrist_Protector_p/hir-pro--wrist--.htm), it will hurt and bruise less.

good luck.

[Ignatz]

yes, it should hurt. if you wear this (http://www.e-bogu.com/Wrist_Protector_p/hir-pro--wrist--.htm), it will hurt and bruise less.

good luck.
When I go to shiai and see people putting them on both arms I think, "Oh god, another gorilla".

[nothing]

When I go to shiai and see people putting them on both arms I think, "Oh god, another gorilla".


I agree. I once saw a kid at a shiai wearing wrist guards, elbow guards and tabi on both feet.

I was taught that protection was fine during practice, but not to get too dependent on special guards. Because during shiai or testing you should show no weekeness, only good strong kendo.

For me, if I see wrist guards in competiton, I go kote... alot.....protection or not, it means your weaker there, or nervouse about a harder hit. It may make you drop kamae easier for a kote-men combination..

You coming to practice tonight Ignatz-san?

[bullet08]

normally, i take mine off during shiai, or shiai geiko.. i didn't think i was allowed to wear protection pad during shiai..

pete

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

I was taught that protection was fine during practice, but not to get too dependent on special guards. Because during shiai or testing you should show no weekeness, only good strong kendo.


fair enough, but not everyone can walk around with big, purple bruises on their wrist. i've gone through whole practices with no pad and it wasn't pretty. i couldn't even concentrate properly toward the end because of the pain. maybe that's being weak-minded and using a pad is the easy way out, so i'll admit...i am a wuss. personally, i wouldn't criticize someone for wearing a guard properly even in a shiai, but yeah pads on both wrists is pretty wierd. :ermm:

p.s. the original question was talking about practice, not shiai.

[Anonymous]

I used to do kyokushin karate, so a few taps on the wrist isn't that big a deal to me :p

[Ignatz]

fair enough, but not everyone can walk around with big, purple bruises on their wrist. i've gone through whole practices with no pad and it wasn't pretty. i couldn't even concentrate properly toward the end because of the pain. maybe that's being weak-minded and using a pad is the easy way out, so i'll admit...i am a wuss. personally, i wouldn't criticize someone for wearing a guard properly even in a shiai, but yeah pads on both wrists is pretty wierd. :ermm:

p.s. the original question was talking about practice, not shiai.
I think then that the people in your dojo are lacking in control. Unless you are doing motodachi for everyone there should be no need for pads. Even when we are doing big boys (and girls) full tilt boogie keiko you might get tagged really hard once or twice but the pain is your inducement not to let that happen. If you are playing with people way above your level and they are creaming you they should be told to back off.
Of course some people bruise easily and they should wear the pads.


You coming to practice tonight Ignatz-san?
Getting ready to take my nap right now.:cool:

[Big One]

I never wear any pad. Before I got some bruise but I got over it by turning my arm a little inside.

[xvikingx]

Should recieving kote be totally painless?...

If so I'm in trouble. Every week when I come back from Sunday morning practice my right forearm is swollen and discolored. I've got fat black and blue knuckles from the misses.

[Alison2805]

I have bony wrists and I wear a protector. Recently Ive added an elbow protector because Ive developed a lump of scar tissue from too many missed hits. Ebogu sells brilliant protectors.

[nikozamo]

you dont need to have bony wrists, hahaha, when the kotes from jodan usually hurts if they hit well or not, and i think is a normal thing in kendo... the pain... o__O

[Irishjabs]

I am one month into my kendo training so I'm very new so this might not be correct but my sensei told me I was hitting the kote too hard. He said that it hurt and for training I should not use that much force. I was going from chudan straight up and coming down as hard as I could. Sensei said from chudan to use the left hand in a upward motion and to pop the kote.

[xvikingx]

I was going from chudan straight up and coming down as hard as I could.

Yowza! That hurts thinking about it. Take it easy on your partners slugger.
All new people either hit way too hard or too soft. You'll understand someday when you are motodachi for a new guy.:ko:

[kartoffelngeist]

All new people either hit way too hard or too soft. You'll understand someday when you are motodachi for a new guy.:ko:

That's the stage I'm finding myself at now. I think I probably was being hit too hard (it's when you see the shoulder muslces tense up like mad that I worry), but I was just wondering if it was way too hard or just a little...

I'll try to make sure my arms are in the right position, I'm probably getting sloppy with the basics since I've been wearing Bogu.

[xvikingx]

That's the stage I'm finding myself at now. I think I probably was being hit too hard (it's when you see the shoulder muslces tense up like mad that I worry), but I was just wondering if it was way too hard or just a little...

I'll try to make sure my arms are in the right position, I'm probably getting sloppy with the basics since I've been wearing Bogu.

I always cringe when I hear "kotemen-uchi.. HAJIME!!!!", and all I can think is I wish the Jr high school kids with more control were hitting me.

I always hold my shinai straight up and down like when recieving kirikaeshi but off to left armpit. When it starts to get painful I push my left hand forward (towards the opponent) so that the kisaki is angled back, that way my right wrist rotates and they are hitting more meat and less bone.

[satsumaruma]

I was taught that Kote should be a firm strike but not as if you are trying to cut the opponents arm off. This is kendo not Iai and a hit will suffice.

If you hit TOO hard; at least two things become quickly apparent.
1 - it takes more effort to then follow with an immediate Men; therefore slower and unlikely to suceed.
2 - you will piss off your opponent bigstyle (especially motodachi).

There was once a Polish guy who came to our kendo club and did kendo like Iaido - big, big hard cuts. He hit my Kote so hard his shinai broke and I thought my wrist had too.

Our Sensei makes a big thing about the fact that when you've finished hitting your opponent he/she needs their body back.

[Ignatz]

. . .Our Sensei makes a big thing about the fact that when you've finished hitting your opponent he/she needs their body back.
Uncle Ignatz sez:
Don't break your toys!":laugh:

[satsumaruma]

Uncle Ignatz sez:
Don't break your toys!":laugh:


And remember boys and girls, that's good advice when your visiting those....ahem...special educational internet sites for adults :confused2

[dwez]

I always hold my shinai straight up and down like when recieving kirikaeshi but off to left armpit. When it starts to get painful I push my left hand forward (towards the opponent) so that the kisaki is angled back, that way my right wrist rotates and they are hitting more meat and less bone.

After my ten year break I was told to receive kote exactly how you start off, whereas my old teaching was to tip the shinai to the left and expose the kote.

My problem with the new technique is that for one the cutting distance is nothing like my orignal opening, it's an unnatural [for the most part] poosition to aim for whereas a slight opening is more like the chance you will have to get used to. Also by holding you arm parallel to the ground it seems much easier to get hurt, as I was when I was told to start doing it.

As far as I was told kote will hurt if it is done correctly, but not in a painful way. You should feel like your hand has been cut off, totally numb, but there will be no residual pain and no bruising. You know when it's been done correctly. If your hand and wrist is killing afterwards and there is massive bruising then some folks are bashing.

There's a similar feeling to men, it feels like a bell has been struck and you're inside it. Anyway that's my twopennethworth. Rest assured for kote I'm gonna stick with my old approach. Better to offering it differently than to be injured and not able to practice.

[xvikingx]

After my ten year break I was told to receive kote exactly how you start off...

We only do that for the kids so they have a nice big target. This way they are less likely to whack you on the knuckles or unprocted forearm.
Still hurts like a son of a bitch though.:ko:

[D'Artagnan]

Well,

1). Yes a correctly executed kote strike, done by an adult male, does hurt. If not they are probably hitting too softly, all cuts in Kendo should be executed with enough force to effectively cut the opponent with a real sword.

2). If you wish to wear an additional pad/protector for keiko, then do so. There is no stigma attached to doing this,it is not bad and there is nothing wrong with it. I wear additional kote padding for every practise, and would dissagree with anyone who says I shouldn't.

[shred_lord]

My experience;

I must admit the I use the 2mm deluxe kote from nine circles (good but nothing too special I thought). I wear no pad purely because I do feel the need.

Kote very rarly hurts. It stings a bit, but generally doesn't hurt. Neither have I had swollen or seriously discoloured (i.e. not more the a very slight darkening) wrists since changing from my 5mm's (with pad).

I've receive kote from 7 uk dojo and (via seminar's) 4 countries.

[taganahan]

one of the people from my club who i practised with before the tourny yesterday said that i might have popped one of his veins from all those kotes i did on him. his wrist was quite swollen.

so yea..it should hurt.

~taganahan

[waiwilly]

it's shuldn't hurt. but this one time i used (or i think i used) tenouchi, i still cracked my opponents wrist or arm.
my point is just be careful with your kote (especially in tournment)

[Kingofmyrrh]

I don't know what half you people are doing... one of my practice sets of kote is an A-1 set, which is designed to be light, and so certainly isn't particularly padded, but I can't say that I've ever felt particularly pained by receiving kote. High school kids, uni students, adults, police, whoever - no real pain to speak of. The only exception is katate kote from jodan, but then again you have to expect some sacrifice for such a great opportunity to hone your katate tsuki...

[Masahiro]

kote uchi, (well executed) shoud sting for about 2 seconds. Enough to let you know you got hit, but then afterwards your wrist shouldn't swell from the strike.(as motodachi) If ur wrist is bruised, then your aite/kakarite does not have full control of his/her tenouchi. point blank. :cyclops:

[Big One]

Is it true if your arm develop the "resistant" or tougher after receiving Kote many times. I see when most of beginner start into advance class, they complaint about hurting kote. After a while, the pains are gone or they no longer complaint.

[Nochi-no-tsuki]

I think then that the people in your dojo are lacking in control. Unless you are doing motodachi for everyone there should be no need for pads.

the times i've bruised have been after practices where i was partnered with a newbie for kote drills. since most of our dojo members are noobs, i rock the black 'n blue quite a bit. i didn't mean to imply that this happens when we spar, just during repetitive kote drills.


...full tilt boogie keiko...
:D

[schiedsrichter]

Well, usually Kote does't hurt so much if theres sufficient tenouchi ... but if someone hits too hard, I have still the opportunity to hit back the same way :D

[Kitsune]

Well in my experience, kote hurts a little, but not that much to being permanetly injured. I wear a kote pad anyway to prevent any accident (not that it happend to me, but I know some people had accidents and I prefer avoid them)

[D'Artagnan]

I think its really far too subjective to give a definate answer on this, but to be honest, Its quite simple, if you are struck on the kote and it hurts, look at your aite,

are they a beginner?? if so they are probably hitting incorrectly,

Does it hurt when experienced kendoka hit your kote?? If so then they are probably hitting correctly but with strong tenouchi.

When my teacher hits my kote, it bloody hurts, he excellent tenouchi and his striking is not incorrect

Now I have no interest in pretending to be macho, and I am not ashamed to admit that I find that when my kote is struck correctly, it hurts, yes its only for a few seconds and no it does not cause injury, but I do not enjoy pain so I wear an additional pad for day to day keiko.

This is just my experience, which, as it seems to be important on this thread, is with Kendoka from 21 UK dojo,16 different countries, 4 National Team Coaches (incl. team Japan) and 3 current National Champions, oh and 3 kendo book 'authors' :p

Now I don't really agree with 'listing' experience, but I want you to know i'm not just going off what happens in my 'home dojo'

If i'm a wimp for wearing a Kote pad, then i'm a wimp.Though being so has not yet hindered my progress in Kendo...

[waiwilly]

If i'm a wimp for wearing a Kote pad, then i'm a wimp.Though being so has not yet hindered my progress in Kendo...

chill i see no one calling you a wimp:) though i never wear one, never seen one either:) sorry.Any pict of kote pad?

[Masahiro]

look up any online kendo stores and you'll see many versions of "kote pad/wrist protector".

[shred_lord]

I don't have anything against pads except that all kote should protect enough without the need for extra padding. (should but often don't)

I don't think is fair that a beginner buy a beginners set of bogu and his first experience is extreme pain!

[D'Artagnan]

chill i see no one calling you a wimp:) though i never wear one, never seen one either:) sorry.Any pict of kote pad?


haha, no, nobody was saying i'm a wimp, but I probablly am! haha

my Kote pad is not even a proper Kendo one!!! hahaha

Its actually a childrens size shinpad for football (or soccer as I belive it is called in other areas of the world) :ko: works well though!

[shred_lord]

Haha, I still have one of those from when I was using 5mm kote.

[Masahiro]

Its actually a childrens size shinpad for football (or soccer as I belive it is called in other areas of the world) :ko: works well though!

my god D'artagnan, how long is your arm? and how big is your wrist?? ?? are you Godzilla?:silly:

[D'Artagnan]

are you Godzilla?:silly:


No but if I ever meet Godzilla i'm gonna take him down!!! destroying as much of the city as possible!