kote-gyaku-do

[Halcyon]

I was recently watching a DVD of a practice session at Kyushu Gakuin High School, the winner of the most recent all Japan high school championships and generally regarded as having one of the best HS kendo clubs in the country.

Needless to say, their practice sessions are pretty impressive. Lots of oikomi geiko, lots of kihon drills, with an emphasis on renzoku waza. Which brings me to my point: They practiced a renzoku waza that I have never seen before: kote-gyaku-do. The incredible thing about it is that it requires a complete reversal of momentum -- hit kote going forward, then hit gyaku-do on the way back.

Actually a pretty useful waza for the high school/college kendo environment, where there's a lot of blocking. Pretty amazing, those kids.

[akumalkenshi]

But its one of those controversial techniques that some people frown upon.

Some of my awarded points in the few shiais I ve had the opportunnity to attend, were with gyaku-do. nobody expected it.

Allthough for shodan, the grading senseis, said no gyaku-do nonsense.

[ender84567]

seems to me gyakudo-kote is more usefull, i would have to see how they were doing it

[Halcyon]

seems to me gyakudo-kote is more usefull, i would have to see how they were doing it
How so? Not sure if I get the mechanics of gyaku-do-kote.

[Masahiro]

i say . "gyaku doh, tsuki, men" beat that!!! :devious:

[Kitsune]

Can anyone put a video of this waza? I really want to see it.

[ender84567]

if you can hit gyaju do then their arms are up in jodan usually, as you come out of the gyaku do most people (well mudansha) are stunned that you had the balls to pop their gyaku do and in that moment of hesitation hiki kote is open on the way out, not always true but its something to look for, depending on how they blocked or moved to make gyaku available to you, or i could just be thinking to much.

[Halcyon]

if you can hit gyaju do then their arms are up in jodan usually, as you come out of the gyaku do most people (well mudansha) are stunned that you had the balls to pop their gyaku do and in that moment of hesitation hiki kote is open on the way out, not always true but its something to look for, depending on how they blocked or moved to make gyaku available to you, or i could just be thinking to much.
In theory, maybe. In practice, not really. One of the basic elements of a good gyaku do is to show good hasuji, which entail cutting from your upper right through the opponent's hidari do and then down to your lower left -- all the while maintaining good hasuji. For you to hit hiki kote at that point means that you not only have to reverse the direction that your shinai is traveling, but also reverse the hasuji 180-degrees. Is this something that you've actually tried?

[bullet08]

how is it done? you go for the kote, and the aite try to block, and you do kaeshi gyaku do?

pete

[Halcyon]

how is it done? you go for the kote, and the aite try to block, and you do kaeshi gyaku do?
Basically yes. You hit kote first, your opponent raises his hands in anticipation of a followup men, as in kote-men, then you hit gyaku-do.

[samurai girl]

I was recently watching a DVD of a practice session at Kyushu Gakuin High School, the winner of the most recent all Japan high school championships and generally regarded as having one of the best HS kendo clubs in the country.


Hi, I really want to see how people practice kendo in Japan. Would you please telling me where can I get this DVD? Thank you very much. ^_^

[Halcyon]

Hi, I really want to see how people practice kendo in Japan. Would you please telling me where can I get this DVD? Thank you very much. ^_^
This DVD was a freebie that came with a recent issue of Kendo Nippon. I think it was about 2 months ago. If you have a Japanese book store near you, keep an eye out for Kendo Nippon. They sometimes have freebie DVDs with them.

[cesarekim]

Is there any chance you can upload the waza? I've been living off of my kote and would like to add some variety. Kote-men is something I'm working on but, as matters stand. it only works with juniors. Don't think I could use this technique but I'm curious... I can't even get books in English without going to Milan and I doubt I can find Kendo Nippon in any bookstores at all....

TIA

[Rurouni Kenshin]

if you can hit gyaju do then their arms are up in jodan usually, as you come out of the gyaku do most people (well mudansha) are stunned that you had the balls to pop their gyaku do and in that moment of hesitation hiki kote is open on the way out, not always true but its something to look for, depending on how they blocked or moved to make gyaku available to you, or i could just be thinking to much.

Im not in the position to judge, so I'm not, but hypothetically..in shiai.....
You say you pop the gyaku do and hit it nicely and opponent is stunned than why would you want to risk a hiki kote on the way out.
Correct me if I'm wrong but this would be judged as a combination or not? So if the gyaku do on itself would be good enough for ippon, yet you try a hiki kote and screw that one up that would mean bye-bye ippon right?

Just being curious here.......

[Super Kodachi]

if you can hit gyaju do then their arms are up in jodan usually.

Not so, it's easy to perform gyaku do from Chudan vs chudan. In fact I would only every use it in this situation. If your opponent is in Jodan it is far easier to cut kote or men than bother to cut gyaku do as they will be expecting this as its one of the most obvious/visible targets.

You can easily cut Gyaku do by pushing down on your opponents shinai as you seme, as they push up agianst your force they will lift their arms, thus giving you a clean target to cut. So osae is very useful in this situation.

What you propose isn't really a renzoku/nidan waza. Its cut gyaku do tiatarri then hiki kote. If its your intention to cut Hikikote why not just cut kote in the first place or cut men then tiatarri hiki kote?

The way I see it a first attack in a chain or sequence of renzoku waza has only one purpose, to force an opening that will present a clean ippon. You don't intend to score kote during kote men. you intend to distract the opponent and overwhelm them with your attack and spirit.

Why then bother to cut gyaku do if someone is in jodan to cut hiki kote? You have no intention of scoring the gyaku do and it won't make your opponent react or present you with an opening.

The kote gyaku do renzoku waza would be very useful. Especially if you cut kote, feint men then cut gyaku do.

[Halcyon]

What you propose isn't really a renzoku/nidan waza. Its cut gyaku do tiatarri then hiki kote. If its your intention to cut Hikikote why not just cut kote in the first place or cut men then tiatarri hiki kote?
I'm going off on a tangent here for a moment, but the nature of gyaku-do dictates that you have to make the cut as you move a little to your left or to your left-rear, so it would be pretty difficult to do gyaku-do then then taiatari, which requires some forward momentum.

[johnkichu]

I'm going off on a tangent here for a moment, but the nature of gyaku-do dictates that you have to make the cut as you move a little to your left or to your left-rear, so it would be pretty difficult to do gyaku-do then then taiatari, which requires some forward momentum.

I believe this is correct. When a Japanese sensei taught me gyaku-do, he explained that the pull-cut motion should basically force you to move slightly back. My Korean sabumnim, on the other hand, says that I should move forward, even with the pull-cut. Both explanations make sense, but I think the FIK rule dicates you move backward in order to have the move count as a scoreable hit.

[Koki]

No rules regarding moving back or moving forward. As long as you have ki-ken-tai, it’s a yuko-datosu. The problem is that a lot of people do not know how to do gyaku-do, also, a lot of people don’t know how to judge gyaku-do, which kinda make sense. If you didn’t learn how to do it, you of course don’t know how to judge it.

As for hitting kote-gyaku do-hiki kote, it is possible, but you have to be really good :D. If it were me, I would hit a fake kote, then move in and hit a real gyaku-do. My body will go backward to the left at that point. If I feel my gyaku do is not good enough to raise flag, I could go for hiki-kote. But as for renzoku-waza like that, you can’t really plan it. To execute it successfully, you have to train very hard on how to hit gyaku do and hiki-kote (I’m supposed you know how to hit kote already), and then just go with your gut.

[JSchmidt]

but I think the FIK rule dicates you move backward in order to have the move count as a scoreable hit.

There is no FIK/IKF/ZNKR rule about which way to move. Where did you get that idea?

[Neil Gendzwill]

There's no rule, but typically you need to move somewhere in order to demonstrate zanshin. The standard gyaku-doh method of just standing there looking cool doesn't usually suffice.

[johnkichu]

There is no FIK/IKF/ZNKR rule about which way to move. Where did you get that idea?

What I heard from a sensei who led a kendo seminar few months ago. He was waving the little blue FIK rule booklet and saying that. He was also one of the shimpans at WKC, and said that pre-match, all the shimpans will be agreeing to it. Maybe he meant that's how they would score at WKC, to ensure consistency.

[Super Kodachi]

I'm going off on a tangent here for a moment, but the nature of gyaku-do dictates that you have to make the cut as you move a little to your left or to your left-rear, so it would be pretty difficult to do gyaku-do then then taiatari, which requires some forward momentum.

Gyaku do can be scored by either sliding forward on the front foot, cutting do, pulling back and taking chudan with zanshin.

Or by stepping forward with the back (left) foot then cutting do whilst crossing the legs and pulling the right foot forward (in a similar action to the nuki do in kata number 7).

Theres no wrong or right way they are both valid methods as long as you cut cleanly kiai and show zanshin.

So if you were to step in and forward with the left foot and cut you could easyily get into tsubazeriai when you pull the right foot forward.

This is the only way that I can see you would be able to do gyaku do hiki kote, as if you do it the way you described you would of course be going backwards and therefore unable to reach the kote for hiki kote (or anything at all for that matter).

[Halcyon]

Or by stepping forward with the back (left) foot then cutting do whilst crossing the legs and pulling the right foot forward (in a similar action to the nuki do in kata number 7).
Hmm. I'm a bit skeptical here. This would seem to violate two key tenets.
1. Footwork: Can't really think of any other situation where it's acceptable to cross your legs like that.
2. Gyaku-do is fundamentally a pull-cut waza: Unlike men-uchi or kote-uchi, which have become more or less push-cuts in kendo, gyaku-do still retains its pull-cut shinken origins. (Am I wrong here? Anyone care to argue this point?) That means if you're moving forward diagonally to your right (as in kendo-no-kata No. 7) you're forced to do a push-cut gyaku-do or you're going to have to do a pull-cut as your body is moving forward, neither of which seem right to me.

[D'Artagnan]

I can do gyaku dou going forward.

So can gibbo ( He copied it from me... )

you whack 'em in the dou then leg it forward, to the left (aite's right)

[ZtefaNNN[K]]

..the basic poit to actuallly hit a good gyakku do i what respects to the footwork es to actually spi your body a little and take the hit out quikly like cutting with a "suck" feeling even though this explanation is kinda jedi, I don´t know how to explain it better, but what i´m trying to say is you can actually hit gyakku do and move forward, but doing a round movement in which yo move touyour back... like trying to side with you opponent...

ok, the most complicated thing I´ve ever wrote is here tana !..

[Halcyon]

you whack 'em in the dou then leg it forward, to the left (aite's right)
Well, sure. I can totally see that. But what I mean is that I can't see doing gyaku-do and moving to the aite's left.

[Koki]

Move to the aite's right...:D

And yes, you can still do gyaku-do, go backward and hit hiki-kote. It's all about maai (you don't need to do taiaitari before doing hiki kote).

[JSchmidt]

You can hit gyaku-do whichever way, as aptly demonstrated by Hirakawa-sensei at last weekends seminar in Belgium. The key is to have the footwork to back it up!.

[Super Kodachi]

Well, sure. I can totally see that. But what I mean is that I can't see doing gyaku-do and moving to the aite's left.


Perhaps my explaination wasn't so great. It's a bit complicated in words, if only i could draw a little picture! :D

The movement wouldn't be to aites left. It would be step in and forward with kakarites left (back) foot. At the same time raising the shinai then as you pull the right (now back foot) forward to gain standard kendo stance (right forward left back) cut the gyaku do. Cross the legs I think was a bad wording on my part. Its not so much crossing the legs infront and across of each other like kata 7 actually more its ayumi ashi like when receiving kirikashi.

So you would go thorugh and to the side and turn to face your opponent with zanshin. You'd be going to aites right.

I hope this is a little clearer. Anthony Scott our captain in the British Team often scores ippon by running past and cutting gyaku do in this way, as well as Gibbo. And this is always the way I saw in japanese high schools and uni clubs when I was taught in Japan.

Of course at the end of the day i guess its always down to personal preference as long as (like neil says) you don't just stand there without moving and try to look like a samurai ;)

[Kingofmyrrh]

I saw a gyaku do scored at this year's All Japans. The guy who scored was moving forward and finished the technique standing right up against his opponent's right side. There are answers to the questions here, but I'm tired so I'm just going to leave it at "if it's good enough for the All Japans..."

[Halcyon]

I saw a gyaku do scored at this year's All Japans. The guy who scored was moving forward and finished the technique standing right up against his opponent's right side. There are answers to the questions here, but I'm tired so I'm just going to leave it at "if it's good enough for the All Japans..."
Yes, that was Shimizu in the quarterfinals. Here it is, around the 1:30 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4cUJolmT5s

It's a great gayku-do. Yes, he ends up with the right side of his body right up against his opponent. But that's after he executes the cut while turning his body, showing good hasuji, and only then does he narrow the distance between himself and his opponent. Willing to concede that he was moving forward, with or without a pause, but certainly mot moving forward to the aite's left.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I wasn't too happy with the finish, but I would have called it too because the riai was so clear. But Takanabe was pretty damn quick with those kote, holy smoke.

[D'Artagnan]

Great clip, I think that gyaku dou was ace!

thing is, people finish kote-uchi with similar if not practically identical kime to that and it's still regarded as ippon...

[Sirsmokesalot]

Hello!

Damn nice gyaku do.... I allways like the Commentators and they´re voices after an amazing Ippon "GYAKU DO, SHIMIZU DO, SHIMIZU IPPON" ;) Best the comments on Eiga´s kote strike which made him the All Japan Champion of 2000 the Commentator was almost freakin out, but i like that they´re as fascinated as myself.

Regards
Sirsmokesalot

[Super Kodachi]

Yes, that was Shimizu in the quarterfinals. Here it is, around the 1:30 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4cUJolmT5s

It's a great gayku-do. Yes, he ends up with the right side of his body right up against his opponent. But that's after he executes the cut while turning his body, showing good hasuji, and only then does he narrow the distance between himself and his opponent. Willing to concede that he was moving forward, with or without a pause, but certainly mot moving forward to the aite's left.

This is exactly the method I was describing except kakarite cuts and instead of stopping as in the clip runs past to aites right. Fantastic clip though, thanks for the link