kendo vs kumdo

[Pokie]

sorry i have to put this in the spotlight but wat are the advantages/disadvantages between kendo and kumdo ? my korean fellow kendoka, who sometimes go to a kumdo dojo says kumdo is much better than kendo, physical strength and stamina...you can pick up much faster in kumdo. i guess this can be reflected with guys practising kumdo who came 1st in kyu level and 2nd in dan level in the aust kendo championships. With this in mind, could you really say that they are the same ? Like a red apple and green apple, taste different but gives you same vitamins in the end

[dorkusxmaximus]

kendo and kumdo is the same thing in my opinion.. From what I heard, kumdo practitioners just attack relentlessly until they score. Great strategy for kyus and shodans ^_^.

[dorkusxmaximus]

but I wonder what happens to zanshin through those flurry of attacks???

[MACSTA]

i guess zanshin will follow once they landed a proper cut???:p

[Ben F.]

Kendo and Kumdo are the same in just about every way. For example, Kendo has the Kendo no Kata; Kumdo has the exact same thing called Bbon. Kendo has free sparring; so does Kumdo. Kendo does kirakaeshi-Kumdo does Sam dan Jak, Ie dan Jak, Il dan Jak, Parranmuri. Kumdo also does some, what we call one step techniques, with bokken that I have not seen in a Kendo dojo. We also do some Iaido type techniques called Baldo Napto.

The Kendo method of sparring does seem more aimed at a "one cut- one point" whereas the Kumdo method is much more focused on multiple strikes. One could say it is very "hack and slash." Just like most Korean martial arts, there is not much focus on making things pretty or feel philosophically satisfying, like good zanshin, but rather the emphasis in on effectiveness. We don't even talk about zanshin. We are taught to leap in, strike the target, and leap back, clearing the hands out of range of a possible counter as opposed to the Kendo way of leaping in, cutting "men" for example and then following through with zanshin.

[Karaken]

Write Kendo and Kumdo in Chinese - Oh Boy, they look exactly same, you know why? Because they are..

Center - only

[Rob Challies]

I do 'Kumdo' in seoul and we are taught that zanshin is very important. In my opinion Kendo/Kumdo are the same thing, there are a few minor cosmetic differences but thats all.

[taiwnezboi]

I don't know where people came up with Kendo is equivalent to concentrating on one great cut whereas Kumdo is equivalent to breaking the opponent with a flurry of attacks, but it's not true. I practice Kumdo and I've sparred against people who practice Kendo. Their style is exactly the same.

[dorkusxmaximus]

that's why I said, "I heard" because it was all hearsay. Like i said before, both are the same in my opinion.

[MACSTA]

i think emphasis on flurry of attacks compared with single clean cuts is more a result of the individual's preference or their dojo's teaching emphasis, rather than the kendo vs kumdo style of attack.:rolleyes:

[roc_kendo]

Kumdo Vs. Kendo

One BIG difference is;
Kumdo is Korean pronunciation of Chinese character(Hanja)
Kendo is Japanese pronunciation of Chinese character(Kanji)

[Nishi]

Originally posted by dorkusxmaximus
kendo and kumdo is the same thing in my opinion.. From what I heard, kumdo practitioners just attack relentlessly until they score. Great strategy for kyus and shodans ^_^.

Now i hear that this is not the case, besides some differences in the approach to training and the general look, kendo and kumdo are the same.....however when i see shiai involving kumdo players they usually always attack in combination, yet i consistantly hear that this is just coincedence.

[Nishi]

Originally posted by Karaken
Write Kendo and Kumdo in Chinese - Oh Boy, they look exactly same, you know why? Because they are..

Just had a funny though......based on Kareken's formula, every Latino man named Jesus (pro; hayzeus), would be the son of God.
:confused2

[qpuppy]

sorry i have to put this in the spotlight but wat are the advantages/disadvantages between kendo and kumdo ? my korean fellow kendoka, who sometimes go to a kumdo dojo says kumdo is much better than kendo, physical strength and stamina...you can pick up much faster in kumdo. i guess this can be reflected with guys practising kumdo who came 1st in kyu level and 2nd in dan level in the aust kendo championships. With this in mind, could you really say that they are the same ? Like a red apple and green apple, taste different but gives you same vitamins in the end

Heya Pokie...
Well.. no offence... but from the sound of this... you are interested in kumdo then kendo.. Why dont you think of that kendo and kumdo is the same.. but just different style and have different ideas on what Kendo/kendo is about. If you prefer full on shiai style.. why not kumdo then.
Even though the people who came first in the kyu grade.. and the other person 2nd in the dan level are from kumdo... who didnt you think that in the kyu grade... 2nd, 3rd are all from kendo.. and 1st and 3rd are from Kendo in the dan grades...
I was there at the National Comp.. and was fighting agaisnt the guy who came first in the kyu grades in the semi finals... I do admit that he was quick.. but that is only on kotes... Also... if you think in a kendo rules.. on one is not allowed to give pointer from any one, like "look for his kote" and "take notice of his men" which his sensei/master was doing (heard from a korean friend who was there watching) so it all comes from different style you prefer....

[taiwnezboi]

I think when it comes down to it, the style, quality, and everything else comes from the dojang and the sensei/master, and also from the individual. Kendo or Kumdo has nothing to do with it.. I practice Kumdo and I like to go for single strikes rather than combination attacks..

[hamish]

So much depends on the dojo, and the type of training they do. If you only saw Japanese high school kendo classes, you'd say the same thing about lack of zanshin, just a flurry of attacks, etc.

I've trained with Korean university Kumdoists, and I wouldn't have said there was much of a difference from Japanese students at all.

(They did drink the Japanese under the table, but that was afterwards...)

[Karaken]

Just had a funny though......based on Kareken's formula, every Latino man named Jesus (pro; hayzeus), would be the son of God.
:confused2

Or a copy of it.

Center.

[Nishi]

The difference between kendo and kumdo may not be substantial to those of us of non-korean descent...but if Korea claims to have a sword history all of its own, then to those who train in kumdo the differences between the two are very important....i think we need to respect this.

I studied Hapkido for quite some time under a korean master, and i am well aware of the Hwa Rang warriors, and their use of the sword, now wether or not kumdo has truly evolved from this tradition, i have no idea, but those who train in kumdo believe it has developed from this root.

Imagine telling the Scots that the kilt was an invention from England??
(sorry for the cruel example guys, i have celtic heritage aswell) ;)

[Nishi]

Thanx for the link Sminki....

Have a look at this history of kumdo
http://www.kumdo.com/2003/kumdo/history.html

[dorkusxmaximus]

china might as well take some credit also.

[Nishi]

Thats right Max, i must admit thats the first time ive heard the term "JINDO"...mabye the Chinese will get a new uniform as well(kidding).

But as i said, its obviously very real and very serious to some kumdo players, im not a historian. I have studied some japanese history due to my interest in the katana, so claims that Ken Do is japanese, i can prove.

The positive is this, all kendo/kumdo/jindo can be practiced world wide, and they are all compatible with all people across the globe.

I only wish i could find out what the name for the traditional english sword was called so i could start a new thread, "kendo came from England" :silly:

[Nishi]

Check these interesting uniforms, i think all kendo/kumdo outfits are nice but im struggling with this one...

http://my.netian.com/~tamseong/vod/sbskumdo.wmv

[dorkusxmaximus]

Well, the first time my high school school teacher saw me carrying around my shinai bag. She thought I was into European stick (or was it staff?) fighting . haha you can make some claims there. No way, last i heard kendo originated in Timbuktu (town in w. africa) ! :p

[sminki]

Check these interesting uniforms, i think all kendo/kumdo outfits are nice but im struggling with this one...

http://my.netian.com/~tamseong/vod/sbskumdo.wmv

Are you talking about the white men? It was an experiment by SBS (the TV channel in Korea which sponsors SBS Kumdo Tournament) to clearly distinguish the two kenshi in a match.

Hey look OW. Your sensei is featured in the above video (for a split second)

[chidokan]

its just that the koreans dont like to think that the japanese can invent anything worthwhile, and vice versa.... after WW2 its hardly surprising though...
I practised iaido at a local Taekwondo club room for a while... this Korean turns up using an iaito and does a rather interesting combination of chinese and japanese sword moves and says its an old korean sword style. He was actually quite good, 3/4th dan level, problem is they tend to be a little brainwashed along the lines of 'we are the only ones who invent/ do anything right' when they first come out of Korea.. a few years abroad and they tend to change... When he trained with me for a while he was quite pleased to find someone who could understand what he was trying to teach. What got me was the grading kata up to 1st dan was my warm up exercises!! :laugh:
Hopefully we wont see the kumdo/kendo thing cause too many problems in future. I'd hate to see the type of thing in kendo you see with the multiplicity of karate styles and associations and the stupid things they come up with... kendo to Mozart anyone??? :spchless: :eek:

Tim Hamilton

[Karaken]

The difference between kendo and kumdo may not be substantial to those of us of non-korean descent...but if Korea claims to have a sword history all of its own, then to those who train in kumdo the differences between the two are very important....i think we need to respect this.

I studied Hapkido for quite some time under a korean master, and i am well aware of the Hwa Rang warriors, and their use of the sword, now wether or not kumdo has truly evolved from this tradition, i have no idea, but those who train in kumdo believe it has developed from this root.

Imagine telling the Scots that the kilt was an invention from England??
(sorry for the cruel example guys, i have celtic heritage aswell) ;)

Nishi, I am a Korean. As I have written in some other place, there was no Korean made Shinai until recently, No Shinai in Korea until it was introduced by Japanese in 1896. Unless we call something kendo without Shinai ( I believe Japanese practiced sword art with Bokuto and many have been injured as a result ), Kumdo is Kendo practiced in Korea. The twist of it ( claiming that it has Korean origin ) has not started seriously that long ago.

OK, Korea as well as China had many sword art and many famous sword men and family. After all, they have longer history with swords. Claiming that Kendo was invented elsewhere is a bit far fetched though.

There is a Korean sword art called Hwarangdo ( Not Hwarang gumdo of late ) but that was mostly with real sword kata ( close to Kentsusu ).

Let's not confuse ancient sword arts and modern Kendo.

Center.

[kendomushi]

Karaken,
Very well said.

[Nishi]

Like i said Karaken, "I have no idea", my post was more to say that if those of Korean descent felt that they where practicing kumdo as part of a korean sword tradition, who am i to say they arnt? There was never any doubt that kumdo borrows the shinai and bogu etc from Japanese kendo, its their philosophy and techniques they are claiming have a different root than that of kendo.

I believe the Hwa rand Do have 108 classical weapons in their system.

[sminki]

Korea, of course, had its own martial arts, sword styles, etc. However, most of them have vanished but in some written illustrative forms. I must say that half of the reason for Korean style of martial arts being lost is due to Koreans' own belittling of such martial arts prevalent in Chosun period and the other half being Japan's attempts to wipe out any Korean element during its occupation of Korea. (For those of you who find that hard to believe, let me give you some examples. Japan, went so far as to make Koreans take Japanese names, worship national Japanesee religion and even drove large steel stakes into key feng shui ground points to cut off the "chi" which runs through the Korean peninsula. These are all facts and any Japanese claims that these were done at Koreans' request/wishes is a blatant lie.)

Anyway, historical crimes against humanity aside, for one reason or another, there are very few pure Korean martial arts left in Korea. That's a fact. Even tae kwon do had been influenced a good deal from karate. Kendo/Kumdo is no different. Any pure Korean sword arts is basically nonexistent. There are people from "haedong kumdo", "hwarang kumdo", etc. who claim to be "authentically Korean" but they're all made up. There are no sword arts in Korea which can trace its lineage all the way back to the "Three Warring States" period of Kokuryo, Paekjae and Shilla which are so readily and easily invoked by these so-called "authentic" Korean sword arts.

Which brings us to kendo. It's probably true that Korea was at one point was a more advanced civilization than Japan due to its geographical location next to China, which (to an extent along with India) influenced all of Asian civilization and culture to a great extent. But just because there are some signs in history that the king of Paekjae gave a steel sword to a king of Japan, it doesn't make kendo Korean. I'm sure there are a lot of Koreans who practice kendo/kumdo thinking that it's a Korean sword art because Korea had swords (swords, not necessarily nihonto) before Japan, but I don't agree with that...

[sminki]

BTW, Japanese are not the only ones responsible for such crimes and attempts to conduct "ethnic cleansing". Of course, it's been done extensively by the Nazis during WWII. Additionally, such attempts to wipe out martial arts in an occupyee country/region by the occupyer is shown many times in China as well. Whenever the Mongols or a non-"Han" descent power came to be in control of China, such powers would typically try to wipe out such martial arts powerhouses as Shaolin, Wudan, etc. who remained loyal to "Han" descent governments (such as Sung and Ming dynasties) and was a key force in resistance by the "Han" people against the incoming empire (such as Yuan or Ching).

[sminki]

Like i said Karaken, "I have no idea", my post was more to say that if those of Korean descent felt that they where practicing kumdo as part of a korean sword tradition, who am i to say they arnt? There was never any doubt that kumdo borrows the shinai and bogu etc from Japanese kendo, its their philosophy and techniques they are claiming have a different root than that of kendo.

I believe the Hwa rand Do have 108 classical weapons in their system.

Lastly, (I'm not disputing with Nishi but just making a point). If Koreans who practice kendo/kumdo (I really don't like differentiating the two as they're really the same) think "Well, we've sort of borrowed the equipment but our philosophy and root are different because we had swords first." Does that make sense? What if the Brits who practice kendo all of a sudden say "well, we're using Japanese bogu, but we would like to put our own spin as we had knighthood and advanced armor, etc. Let's change the hakama to knickers (what Americans call the puffy pants with knee-high socks. don't know what they're actually called in the U.K.) and change the men-gane to a all-steel helmet with just a little slat to look out of", what does that become? Is that an acceptable way of practicing kendo? To put "your own" spin on it and changing tens if not hundreds of years of tradition and claim ownership?

Just a thought.

[Karaken]

Lastly, (I'm not disputing with Nishi but just making a point). If Koreans who practice kendo/kumdo (I really don't like differentiating the two as they're really the same) think "Well, we've sort of borrowed the equipment but our philosophy and root are different because we had swords first." Does that make sense? What if the Brits who practice kendo all of a sudden say "well, we're using Japanese bogu, but we would like to put our own spin as we had knighthood and advanced armor, etc. Let's change the hakama to knickers (what Americans call the puffy pants with knee-high socks. don't know what they're actually called in the U.K.) and change the men-gane to a all-steel helmet with just a little slat to look out of", what does that become? Is that an acceptable way of practicing kendo? To put "your own" spin on it and changing tens if not hundreds of years of tradition and claim ownership?

Just a thought.

On the other hand, it might have been an attempt to popularize Kendo in Korea. As you know, for a long period ( till late 80s or more ) Koreans did not like anything Japanese. So, for Kendo to survive an flourish in Korea, it may have been necessary to dress it up as authentic Korean.
Oh BTW, most of dojang (dojo) in Korea is run as business not by volunteer sensei. So getting a lot of student is very important.

What do you think?

Center..

[slidercrank]

Oh BTW, most of dojang (dojo) in Korea is run as business not by volunteer sensei. So getting a lot of student is very important.

What do you think?

Center..

This is the same in North America, no? Other than university clubs, every kumdo dojang I see has its own place and offers classes multiple times a day on multiple days, whereas a kendo dojo rents some place for 1 or 2 nights a week. As such, a kumdo student might train 1 hour a day but 3 or 4 days a week, whereas a kendo student trains once a week in a 3-hr session. The Korean approach seems to benefit a beginner more, from what I see in tournaments...

Also I notice that even on internet, Koreans seem to put a lot more effort into "digitizing" kendo. You see these Korean kumdo sites that offer an amazing amount of footages for downloading, and you hardly ever see any Japanese kendo sites doing the same thing. Not only that, Korean kumdo footages often have accompanying dramatic soundtracks, whereas Japanese kendo clips usualy have nothing but a shinai swinging around...

All in all, being a non-Korean, I find this unbounded enthusiasm very interesting. At the very least, they have the dramatic progress in tournament success to show for it. How close they came to winning the team championship this year!

[Old Warrior]

At our dojang there are 3 classes a week in 3 separate time slots and a 2 hour class on Sat. If you are really into it, you can attend 4 classes a week. And yes, Master Seong puts out a lot of stuff in his web site, although most of it is in Korean. http://kumdo.co.kr/kendoacademy/

[taiwnezboi]

At our dojang you can practice 6 days a week if you want, sometimes even all 7 days ^^

[Nishi]

If i had my way, i would practice monday thru thursday for a good hour & 15mins every night, and two hours on sunday. My dream of having a non-profit dojo where i could do this will one day be realised, it is a goal ive set.....:D

Good point Slider, ive not noticed the amount of kumdo profit orientated buisness's out there as apposed to the non-profit kendo clubs, most (not all) mudo do-jang are like this now i think about it....

[kendomushi]

Nishi,
Just come to Japan. Our club on Yokota Air Base (U.S. Forces) is strictly volunteer. Students only pay to test with the kendo renmei ;)

[Nishi]

Hi kendomushi, it would be nice to be free from alot of obligations and just train and enjoy family and friends(dreaming). I dont mind paying to be part of a club, in fact i believe everyone who can contribute should. I just couldnt feel good about myself living off the art, or selling it. Financial contributions or dojo fees should be strictly for the survival of the dojo and its humble progress. Unless your fortunate to be part of a club like yourself, or some of the large japanese company dojo (i dont know if they charge a fee?)

P.S. Wouldnt i have to join united states airforce to train with you?...LOL!!

[kendomushi]

Joining the forces isn't necessary. Having a valid form of ID to enter the base and a military ID card holder to sponsor you is. That is how I get sensei into the base every time. Its like entering a bloody foriegn country. lol

[dorkusxmaximus]

Entering a bloody foreign country in a foreign country...sounds like a hassle...I think I'm going to join a local dojo when I go there.

[Old Warrior]

"I just couldnt feel good about myself living off the art, or selling it."

Why not? I get to attend class 4 days a week at a cost of less than $10 per class. My teacher is a well known, distinguished, 7th Dan, who is at the dojang 6 days a week. The school is in a local shopping center 6 minutes from my home. The Master is accessable and friendly. The commercial aspect creates a relationship where he goes the extra mile for his students and we contribute to his support. There's enough students to make the deal work for everyone. The cost of classes might break the piggybank of a student, but for a working adult the cost is modest and it compares to the cost of the music lessons my wife and I gave to our children. I see no reason to "look down your nose" at a commercial enterprise that teaches quality Kendo to those who pay to belong.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I see no reason to "look down your nose" at a commercial enterprise that teaches quality Kendo to those who pay to belong.
It's a cultural thing. Most of the Japanese teachers are volunteers, most of us have learned our kendo in a volunteer environment and are now ourselves paying through our own volunteer efforts. So when people come along and make a business of it, it's a little jarring. By all acounts your instructor is a skilled and reputable guy who is certainly within his rights to charge for his expertise. There's a difference between volunteering two nights/week at the Y and teaching full-time, and everyone is entitled to their living. However we've seen what's happened with TKD and other martial arts and are wary of anything that may be a step along the path to a mcdojo approach, with charges for every test (and a lot of tests), inflated instructor ranks, etc.

I do have to say that your fees are pretty steep, even by commercial martial arts studio standards (around $US 150/month, if I understand your post).

[Old Warrior]

Neil

In Bergen County, New Jersey rents are typically $20+ per sq. ft. plus utilities, plus common area charges. I cringe at what the liability insurance must cost. I don't think it is commentary on the art if one chooses to pay for the privilege of learning. I had a visit at the dojang from one of the posters to this board, last Sat. (a Nidan I believe) He commented that the amount of attention I got was unprecedented. From my perspective, given the cost, I wouldn't have expected any less. The fact that there are profiteers, doesn't mean that someone who has 30 years into Kendo, who opens his school at 9:30 AM and closes it at 9PM, shouldn't be well compensated for his work.

[Nishi]

I only require a hardwood floor, reasonable equipment, and others with a will to learn, thats just me. I will fence in a third world dojo, and an upper class dojo, again, i dont care. I woulnt pay thru the nose for kendo tuition, and I would never charge thru the nose, again just my opinion.

I think kendo (like Neil said), traditionaly passes its teaching down the way it was recieved, and for me, it hasnt cost much, and i will put it back the way i found it, thats the motivation for my earlier comment.

If somebody wants to earn money from the art, so be it. I choose to be free of financial obligation and offer the art to eveyone who comes to it, rich, poor or bankrupt.....thats my kendo!

[Neil Gendzwill]

The fact that there are profiteers, doesn't mean that someone who has 30 years into Kendo, who opens his school at 9:30 AM and closes it at 9PM, shouldn't be well compensated for his work.

I don't think I said that your instructor was doing anything wrong, just pointing out why some people may raise an eyebrow.

[chidokan]

what gets me is the sheer cost of hiring halls...mine have gone up over the last two years from $10 for an evening (4 hours) to the same for an hour... all down to greedy local government, and thats the cheapest I can get...some places want to charge a fortune. Personally I think all sports should be government sponsored and halls should be free... after all it keeps you fit and out of hospital, must be a tradeoff somewhere!

Tim Hamilton

[Neil Gendzwill]

what gets me is the sheer cost of hiring halls...mine have gone up over the last two years from $10 for an evening (4 hours) to the same for an hour... all down to greedy local government, and thats the cheapest I can get...some places want to charge a fortune. Personally I think all sports should be government sponsored and halls should be free... after all it keeps you fit and out of hospital, must be a tradeoff somewhere!

Renting a school gym here is $CDN30/hour. With 25 students we can cover twice-weekly 2 hour practices for $20/month/student. Our problem isn't cost so much as availability - every possible suitable space in the winter seems to get sucked up by indoor soccer. As a result, we're with the Y, they handle all the registration and money and it's still around $20/month. Or $1.99 in US money :)

[Old Warrior]

$20/sq. ft. is $30,000 per year (on 1500 sq, ft) without including the utilities, insurance or common area charges. Here, it would take over 20 students paying full price just to cover rent and supplemental rent. Meaning no disrespect to those who hail from the outskirts of big cities, absent payment of significant fees, Kendo would be very hard to find and inconvenient to access.

[dorkusxmaximus]

must...not...change..to Neil's dojo...

1.99 you say ^_^??? That's a happy meal for me.

[Neil Gendzwill]

must...not...change..to Neil's dojo...

1.99 you say ^_^??? That's a happy meal for me.
Well, not quite $1.99. More like $15. I think we're a tough drive from Seattle for a weeknight practice though. Try Steveston :).

[dorkusxmaximus]

Well, not quite $1.99. More like $15. I think we're a tough drive from Seattle for a weeknight practice though. Try Steveston :).

Haha who knows I might happen to be up there someday, Neil =P. How far is your dojo from Edmonton? I practiced at Renbu once. It was hardDDD asa geiko, but I loved it! I wouldn't mind going up there again. I was DEAD tired :ko: . I'll never forget that feeling ever again.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Haha who knows I might happen to be up there someday, Neil =P. How far is your dojo from Edmonton?

It's a bit over 5 hours by car. There's a dojo in Edmonton though, and we visit back and forth at each other's seminars.

I practiced at Renbu once. It was hardDDD asa geiko, but I loved it! I wouldn't mind going up there again. I was DEAD tired :ko: . I'll never forget that feeling ever again.

Ara-sensei is a very mild-mannered person outside the dojo, but he's definitely old-school inside the dojo. Renbu means "hard work".

[SirFingerLickin]

I actually went to a Kumdo tournament yesterday in Cerritos. I was surprised at how far some of these kumdoists came to compete. Many came all the way from New York and New Jersey to fight. Unfortunately I didnt bring my equipment so I didnt get to compete, though I really wanted to. I only found out about the competition the night before, so i didnt think they would let me sign up at the last second.

Anyway, back to the subject. From what I saw, kumdo and kendo arent all that different. In the keup divisions, they seemed a bit sloppy imho. Not much emphasis on footwork from what I saw. But once we saw the yudansha start fighting, it was much more interesting. Their form seemed a lot better, and didnt seem sso far off from kendo.

Just my $.02

[Old Warrior]

My dojang in NJ had a dozen competitors attend. If keup students weren't sloppy, they'd be yudansha.

[Nishi]

Ive noticed some differences in footwork between kendo and kumdo during shiai...I havnt yet decided wether or not this was due to shiai where most footwork gets fairly freestyle, or if it is a real difference.

Ive also noticed a difference in attack philosophy, where in kendo we focus on attacking the sword, the spirit, or the technique, kumdo appear to use alot of fakes (ie threaten kote, shinai covers kote opening men, attack men) to achieve their strikes...as well as repeated strike attempts.

Again this may just be due to shiai, or, this may be just the few fighters ive witnessed, so non of this may be the case at all, but its just what ive noticed.

Does kumdo have the shinsa/shiai enigma we have in kendo ?

[Old Warrior]

Nishi

With all due respect, I repeat in the most humble manner - Kumdo is simply the Korean word for Kendo. There is no physical difference or philosophical difference except the vairiations from one teacher to another.

[Nishi]

Just had a thought after reading your post OW, what would you have to compare your training to?

I know nothing about the approach of other schools to kendo, so i comment on shiai, cause ive seen it, its just, you sounded pretty definate in your post.

I just thought mabye you cross train at different dojo and had some more insight into my earlier post.... i did say "none of this may be the case at all"

As for getting you to repeat yourself, i really do apoligize, i honestly did miss the first time you said this.(honestly)

[Old Warrior]

Nishi

Actually, I am mouthing the words of Grandmaster Jin Kyu Seong:

Kendo Kyosa 7th Dan #017009
Kendo Referee Certificate 1996 #962017
Kendo Instructor Certificate -1990 #170
Korea Kumdo Association Technical Research Committee
Testing Committee Member
Chi Gung Instructor Certificate 1999. Chi Gung China Yonbyon College Chi Gung Research Center
1st place in the Culture and Education Minister's Cup National Kumdo Championship, 1981
1st place in the National Sports Festival High School Division, 1981
1st place in the Seoul Kumdo Association President's Championship,1980,1981,1983,1985,1989
1st place in the Seoul Mayor's Pennant Kumdo Championship, 1984,1985,1986,1989,1990,1998
2nd place in the National Sports Festival Senior Division 1990
3nd place in the National Sports Festival Senior Division 1992
2nd place in the Seoul Mayor's Pennant Kumdo Championship,1983,1994,1995
3nd place in the National Ranking Championship 6th Dan Black Belt Division, 1995
Korea Sports Association Award of Accomplishment, 1997

He is a native Korean, educated and trained in Korea and a former international competitor of note. I accept his position on the subject.

[Karaken]

Just had a thought after reading your post OW, what would you have to compare your training to?

I know nothing about the approach of other schools to kendo, so i comment on shiai, cause ive seen it, its just, you sounded pretty definate in your post.

I just thought mabye you cross train at different dojo and had some more insight into my earlier post.... i did say "none of this may be the case at all"

As for getting you to repeat yourself, i really do apoligize, i honestly did miss the first time you said this.(honestly)

Nishi, I've trained with both type of dojos. There probably is more difference in indivisual style ( Sensei or Kenshi ) than there is between kendo and Kumdo. Except a few insignificant things ( to me ).

1. White Pants style uniform
2. Lack of Sonkyo
3. No trace of religious anything ( Some Kendo dojos are as well )

That's all : Center

[smith]

I was wondering...

Do kumdo dojang have mokuso and zarei like in kendo dojo? Is there a seated bow to joseki, sensei and fellow kenshi at the beginning and end of training?

[Nishi]

My dojo has 3 branches, i also train at 3 other dojo when i can, and i notice a consistant approach to kendo from all 6 dojo.

Karaken, have you seen this 1 and 3 step sparring drill they apparently do in kumdo? Or is this exercise (as you say) just individualised to certain dojo that use it? I was told the name for this drill ages ago but have forgotten it....

[mochi_pig]

Hello,
I looked up a kumdo website to find out more about kumdo. I go to a kendo school.
The Ill Kum Kwan school had some interesting information. http://www.uskumdo.com/ It had info about what kumdo is. The moves, kata, rules and philosophy are all the same. It is possible that modern kumdo teachers are straying from the original philosophies to create tournament-winning players.

[Nishi]

Hi Mochi, just had a look at the kumdo link you provided, cheers. I know people on this thread have the definate opinion that kendo and kumdo are the same thing under different pronounciated(sp?) names, but again this dojang gives a korean history to kumdo, i noticed there were no kodachi kata (might just be this dojang, not sure)...and what the heck is Bon Gook Kum Bup??

It must be just me, but i see differences. If i joined this dojo, i would have an awful lot of new things to learn.

[Atama]

"Are kendo & kumdo the same?"

Ok I don't know weather kendo and kumdo are the same and to be quite frank I won't be loosing any sleep over it. One thing I am curious about is why (if kendo and kumdo are the same entity) do the koreans choose a different name for kendo...in England its kendo, also in France, Belgium, Spain, Brazil. So why do the Koreans choose a different name is this merelely out of disrespect to the Japanese who created this art.

I am not an expert on korean martial art but from my limited knowlege it kinda looks like some of the korean martial arts are just ripp-offs of japanese martial arts....I might be wrong so feel free to give your opinions or critisms.


Thanx

Lisa Westhead

[sminki]

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Opening up a can of worms here Lisa. I don't know if I'll be able to answer all of your questions, but will try.

The name kumdo vs. kendo. One thing to keep in mind is that Korean and Japanese (among other Asian languages) are sino-based languages, meaning that Chinese characters are used in our respective written and spoken (dispite having different grammar system and pronunciation) languages. Imagine having your own language in which all written words are in English, but are pronounced differently. That's the relationship between Korean/Japanese and Chinese. So whether it's pronounced kumdo (Korean), gentau (Chinese) or kendo (Japanese), they all have the same Chinese character 劍道. So the name isn't different at all, although there still is an issue as to whether Koreans should refer to it as kendo, rather than kumdo in an international context.

With respect to Korean martial arts, I would say that calling Korean martial arts "rip-offs" of Japanese martial arts is not true and probably out of line. Korean and Japanese cultures have been very closely related due to their geography. Generally speaking, cultural advances, religion, etc. started in China/India and made their way through Korea then Japan. So it's only natural that Korean and Japanese things seem to have some relationship. This is also heightened by the fact that Korean society prior to the Japanese occupation was one that put the warrior class below the beaureaucrat class and that Japanese tried to wipe out whatever remaining Korean martial arts (among other Korean cultural by-products, including Korean last names) as much as possible during the occupation.

What this resulted in is an unavoidable influence of Japanese martial arts on their Korean counterparts during re-construction of Korean martial arts post WWII. Tae Kwon Do, for example, probably was influenced by karate in its reconstruction. However, it should be noted that it really has taken on more Korean "flavor" (such as more fluid motions and spectacular kicks) and is now recognized as a Korean martial art as opposed to Japanese. Plus, there are such Korean martial arts as tekkyun which have have no influences from nor relationship with Japanese martial arts. Therefore, it's really pretty out of order to accuse Korean martial arts as being "rip-offs" of Japanese martial arts and I would refrain from making such uninformed statement.

Anyway, there are Koreans who claim that since the use of iron swords made their way from China to Korea to Japan, kendo is rightfully Korean. But their point of view is same as Japan saying "Koreans got hot peppers from us, so kimchi is really Japanese" or for that matter "Karate influenced Tae Kwon Do, so it's really Japanese". I personally don't agree with this, but in a country in which Japan is still being resented for 36 years of raping and pillaging, it's somewhat understandable why they have chosen to take this point of view (especially in marketing kendo within the country).

Hope this sheds some light on this topic for you. Kumdo is still kendo and kendo is still kumdo (despite some arguments over "whose" martial art it actually is and some issues of what it should be referred to in an international context). Answer to your second question is that Korean martial arts are still Korean, Japanese martial arts are still Japanese.

I tried covering a lot of ground, but I'm sure I've missed spots. In any case, an endnote for you is: Is kicking/punching/throwing/twisting or any other form of self-defense/survival skills including archery, swordsmanship, etc. unique to a particular culture? It is more of a human thing. They do, however, reflect a particular region/culture/lifestyle, etc. Therefore, isn't all this argument of whose is what really pointless?

[Atama]

Thanks for the post sminki greatly apprieciated, cleared up a few things.

[LNGUYEN]

This argument happened every where on the Net. I did post a reply in E-budo and here is my argument.

Let say all Kungfu, Karate, Taekwondo, Vovinam, etc... have kicks and punches, then who copied who. Your guys said Kumdo is a copy from Kendo, are you sure the Japanese didn't copy from Korean a thousand years ago and the Korean didn't learn it from the Chinese a thousand years ago or vice versa. The Japanese introduced martial art to the Western world first and then we all thought everything came from Japan. Most of Japanese culture, architecture were from Chinese when they sent a group of scholars to China to study everything (when?, I forgot, same period with "The great journey to the West"). Of course, I had to credit the Japanese that they kept that tradition so close that their culture was intacted from outside and they improved it for a long time to become unique. I didn't care who copied who anymore, Kendo, Kumdo, they are all beautiful. Why din't I study the Vietnamese sword art? Just like other countries beside Japan, all other Asian countries had changed during wars, political turmoil, and poverty that their martial art had changed too. Meanwhile, the Japanese still keep their martial art the same and that is what I like, the Acient Spirit, attitude. Kendo, Kumdo, Kiem dao (Vietnamese), Gentau... they are all same.

[xvikingx]

Your guys said Kumdo is a copy from Kendo, are you sure the Japanese didn't copy from Korean a thousand years ago and the Korean didn't learn it from the Chinese a thousand years ago or vice versa. The Japanese introduced martial art to the Western world first and then we all thought everything came from Japan.

The nihonto is strictly Japanese; no "ifs", "ands", or "buts" about it. Kendos roots are in kenjutsu which is the study of the sword (nihonto). Kendo has absolutely no relation to traditional Korean or Chinese sword arts. Not to metion the nihonto is completely different from Korean and Chinese swords.

Second, Japan was a completely closed country (accept for special trades with Holland) untill the Meiji period (1800s). And even at that point they where not sharing they're ways, they were learning military tactics and technology from the west. The first country to introduce anything, including "martial arts", to the western world was China.

Why would you start a debate based on assumption? Besides that you completely missed the point of smnik's post.

[slidercrank]

The nihonto is strictly Japanese; no "ifs", "ands", or "buts" about it. Kendos roots are in kenjutsu which is the study of the sword (nihonto). Kendo has absolutely no relation to traditional Korean or Chinese sword arts. Not to metion the nihonto is completely different from Korean and Chinese swords.

Second, Japan was a completely closed country (accept for special trades with Holland) untill the Meiji period (1800s). And even at that point they where not sharing they're ways, they were learning military tactics and technology from the west. The first country to introduce anything, including "martial arts", to the western world was China.

The 2nd paragraph is factually incorrect. The westernization during the Meiji reign was but the latest episode of Japan opening up and learning from the outside. Japan did this many times in its history, either through a major reform movement or through gradual and continual exposure. Buddhism, the written Chinese language, architecture, costume, Confucianism, Chinese literature, etc, all came to Japan via Korea or sea traders over time in Japan's history. In fact, there is little in modern Japan that was either not directly from or evolved from something in China. Even the Japanese Kana alphabets were evolved from Chinese characters. Same can be said of Korea (but the Korean alphabets are at least uniquely Korean).

Because of this, the statements in the first paragraph cannot be made so categorically. The development of nihonto and kenjutsu can be said to be a unique Japanese development, but to say that neither has absolutely any root in or influence from China or Korea is an extremely bold statement.

[elfboy]

Going off on a tangent here, forgive me. Since we're bringing up Korea and Kumdo, if Japan has Miyazaki as its best player and Kendo virtuoso, does Korea have an equivalent? Who is considered the best Kumdo player in Korea?

end tangent :D

[kendomushi]

Because of this, the statements in the first paragraph cannot be made so categorically. The development of nihonto and kenjutsu can be said to be a unique Japanese development, but to say that neither has absolutely any root in or influence from China or Korea is an extremely bold statement.

It is true that quite a lot of what we call Japanese has evolved from imported concepts. It is also correct to say that once an idea, item, or concept was imported, it often evolved from that point on in a vaccuum, that is to say that minimal or no influence was exerted by the originating source after its acceptance in Japan. That is why the nihonto is viewed as uniquely Japanese. However it is a fact that it never would have come to be without initial importation of swords and concepts of their use from China.

[xvikingx]

The 2nd paragraph is factually incorrect. The westernization during the Meiji reign was but the latest episode of Japan opening up and learning from the outside. Japan did this many times in its history, either through a major reform movement or through gradual and continual exposure. Buddhism, the written Chinese language, architecture, costume, Confucianism, Chinese literature, etc, all came to Japan via Korea or sea traders over time in Japan's history. In fact, there is little in modern Japan that was either not directly from or evolved from something in China. Even the Japanese Kana alphabets were evolved from Chinese characters. Same can be said of Korea (but the Korean alphabets are at least uniquely Korean).

Because of this, the statements in the first paragraph cannot be made so categorically. The development of nihonto and kenjutsu can be said to be a unique Japanese development, but to say that neither has absolutely any root in or influence from China or Korea is an extremely bold statement.

That was not what I meant. The European western world is what I was talking about. I know that Kanji, Buddhism, Confucianism are not of Japanese origin. I know that the sword along with many other things came over from Korea and China . BLAH BLAH BLAH... I am talking about the Nihonto and kendo. If you want to get all nitpicky, Japanese themselves are originally from Korea. But that, much like the rest of what you said is completely beside the point. The point is Kendo is Japanese; it was introduced to Korea. We are not talking about how they learned to use metal, cultivate rice, learned to write, etc. etc. etc. It's like claiming Itaian food is just a rip off of Chinese because that is where they learn about the noodle. By the way, I did not say that Japanese culture was not influenced at all by Chinese or Korea. Stick to the subject, how's that for a BOLD statement.

[Zanza]

I thought Kumdo was a korean pronunciation. Yay! :)

Are there any technical diffirences? :normal:

[LNGUYEN]

The Japanese culture was influenced greatly during Chinese Song dynasty (if I am right). the Clay tempered technique was used by the Chinese a long time before it was used by the Japanese. I have to agree that Nihonto with curve blade was an excellent development but without the influences from the Chinese, Korea, do you think the Nihonto would exist. It is just like television. The only American company which is still produce TV is Zenith (which actually was bought by Korean a few years ago). There are so many TV from Japan, Korea, and now even Chinese. Many years from now (let say 200 years), there are only (let say) Korean TV left on the market with all marvelous innovation in technology. Can we say that TV is a distintive Korean? Just an example.

Holy Cow, this is my 100th posts.

[sminki]

I thought Kumdo was a korean pronunciation. Yay! :)

Are there any technical diffirences? :normal:

you are correct!

no real technical differences. some differences in reigi (i.e. no sonkyo) and some differences in fashion (i.e. white gi & hakama with black racing stripes). but the bottom line is that kumdo=kendo=劍道

[Zanza]

you are correct!

no real technical differences. some differences in reigi (i.e. no sonkyo) and some differences in fashion (i.e. white gi & hakama with black racing stripes). but the bottom line is that kumdo=kendo=劍道

Ok, Why don't they call it Kendo too :confused2

剣道 :cool2:

[xvikingx]

The Japanese culture was influenced greatly during Chinese Song dynasty (if I am right). the Clay tempered technique was used by the Chinese a long time before it was used by the Japanese. I have to agree that Nihonto with curve blade was an excellent development but without the influences from the Chinese, Korea, do you think the Nihonto would exist. It is just like television. The only American company which is still produce TV is Zenith (which actually was bought by Korean a few years ago). There are so many TV from Japan, Korea, and now even Chinese. Many years from now (let say 200 years), there are only (let say) Korean TV left on the market with all marvelous innovation in technology. Can we say that TV is a distintive Korean? Just an example.

I didn't say that the Japanese invented the swords. I didn't say Japanese culture wasn't influence by the Chinese/ Koreans. Do you bother reading the posts? I am talking about the nihonto (which means Japanese sword; gee I wonder where it came from) and kendo. This has gotten so off subject it's rediculous. Lets try to follow along here o.k.?

You want an example? How about this one? It is very easy to follow. (*purely hypothetical*): China invents the phonograph, then passes it on to Korea, who then brings it to Japan. Everyone is enjoying records but Japan comes up with the CD. Japan passes the CD on to Korea. Some years down the line Korea claims to have invented the CD. Is this correct? Did Korea invent the CD? <YES/NO>
If you have chosen "YES" you are a moron.
Now obviously Japan would never have been able to invent the CD if they had not recieved the phonograph from Korean but that certainly does not mean that Korea invented the CD! Do you understand now?

[xvikingx]

Ok, Why don't they call it Kendo too :confused2

剣道 :cool2:

Because that is how it is pronounce in Korean. That is how those characters are read in Korean.

[LNGUYEN]

Ofcourse, Nihonto is Japanese sword just like a sword in my hand called Vietkiem (Vietnamese sword). what is the different? different innovations, different situation, and different adaptation. However, the purpose is same no matter what. Here is example, I used to use real sword to practice with my brother and we are both taught by some one. Later, he thinks sword is too dangerous and have an idea to use bamboo sword to replace the real one and called it in his own word, Shinai. I saw that his idea is genious and start to use bamboo sword too. Does it mean that I copy my brother sword art and he is the one who invent sword arts?

The thing I want to say is: Nihonto is Japanese, Shinai is Japanese, Bogu is Japanese, but KENDO is definately not only Japanese alone. It is belong to everyone. The Japanese called it Kendo, the Korean called it Kumdo, the Chinese called it Gentau, the Vietnamese called it Kiemdao. There is no different in technique, just different in adaptation to each individual history.

By the way XvikingX, I never use any word like Moron, etc in my posts. I try to keep the argument healthy and I should expect you too to do the same. Cheers, this is just fun fun argument between friends.

[Zanza]

Because that is how it is pronounce in Korean. That is how those characters are read in Korean.

He, he. I understand that. But I just thought that they could withdraw(?) from that and say Kendo, in japanese.

I've studied japanese for about two years so I kind of know what I am talking about. But never mind, silly me. :redface:

[sminki]

He, he. I understand that. But I just thought that they could withdraw(?) from that and say Kendo, in japanese.

I've studied japanese for about two years so I kind of know what I am talking about. But never mind, silly me. :redface:

"Withdraw" from that? This IS silly, but would you be willing to change pronunciations of all Swedish words to how they would be read/pronounced in American English?

[Zanza]

"Withdraw" from that? This IS silly, but would you be willing to change pronunciations of all Swedish words to how they would be read/pronounced in American English?

"Never mind, silly me :o "

[Zanza]

Well then... Does anyone here know how the "道" is pronunced in mandarin? Just curious.

[mingshi]

Zanza:

道 is Dao^4 in Mandarin. In Cantonese it's Do^6. (while the number is the intonation. As you may or may not know, Mandarin has 4 and Cantonese has 9.)

[Zanza]

Zanza:

道 is Dao^4 in Mandarin. In Cantonese it's Do^6. (while the number is the intonation. As you may or may not know, Mandarin has 4 and Cantonese has 9.)

9!? And I thought there was six! That's many too. :dead: hehe

Well, thank you.

[A P]

I think when it comes down to it, the style, quality, and everything else comes from the dojang and the sensei/master, and also from the individual. Kendo or Kumdo has nothing to do with it.. I practice Kumdo and I like to go for single strikes rather than combination attacks..


I totally agree with you mannnn!!!!!

It's all about how sensai teaches you and how we perfer to fight.

Single blow or combination blow. It is totally up to us to choose our own

strategy of how to fight.... :cyclops: :cyclops: :cyclops:

[Hai_hai]

Kendo vs. Kumdo?
Considering that the kumdoists usually place in the top three in the kendo world championships, I guess it's not that bad.
That's just an impartial guess just by looking at world championship results.

[D'Artagnan]

Kendo vs. Kumdo?
Considering that the kumdoists usually place in the top three in the kendo world championships, I guess it's not that bad.
That's just an impartial guess just by looking at world championship results.

If you're using that formula it's 'Kendo' that always comes first at WKC...

A

[xvikingx]

For the love of God...

Kendo is Kumdo. Kumdo is kendo. IT IS THE SAME THING. People have managed to find minor differences, where Korea has tried to make kumdo Korean, but I am sure you do the same thing if you were to compare kendo in Australia to Kendo in France. Of course kendo took first place, IT'S A KENDO TOURNAMENT! It is going to take 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and so on... no matter how you pronounce it.

[k3nsh1n]

I've seen kumdo practitioners and kendo practitioners..
everyone is saying kumdo = kendo, which it does, technically..
the techniques you practice, men, kote, do are the same however..
i think relatively speaking the 'style' is different.
Kumdo IS more aggressive than kendo, multiple cuts and fakes and kendo does seem to prefer the 'one cut - one point' style..
There is a reason to this. Most possibly because though kendo can be regarded as very much a philosphical and spiritual attainment whereas kumdo is mostly focused on as a sport. Though i am aware kendo does as well, kendo does seem to emphasize highly on the spiritual aspects as well. Not that im saying kumdo doesnt but possibly doesnt regard it with as much significance as kendo practictioners do.
And lots of discussion on its origins, kendo is japanese. Its not chinese or vietnamese or korean. Its clearly japanese.

[xvikingx]

I've seen kumdo practitioners and kendo practitioners..
everyone is saying kumdo = kendo, which it does, technically..
the techniques you practice, men, kote, do are the same however..
i think relatively speaking the 'style' is different.
Kumdo IS more aggressive than kendo, multiple cuts and fakes and kendo does seem to prefer the 'one cut - one point' style..
There is a reason to this. Most possibly because though kendo can be regarded as very much a philosphical and spiritual attainment whereas kumdo is mostly focused on as a sport. Though i am aware kendo does as well, kendo does seem to emphasize highly on the spiritual aspects as well. Not that im saying kumdo doesnt but possibly doesnt regard it with as much significance as kendo practictioners do.
And lots of discussion on its origins, kendo is japanese. Its not chinese or vietnamese or korean. Its clearly japanese.

I have no doubts that styles may differ, but it is the same thing no matter what. Like I said earlier you could probably do the same thing with two other different countries and find that they have differences in style or dojo etiquette, but that wouldn't mean that one is kendo and the other is some other form. This just adds to the rivalry between Japan and Korea. I am sure that is also the reason they claim kendo's origins began in Korea. Kumdo vs Kendo... It's like saying Soccer vs Football.

[Shazzanzzz]

劍道 (kendo, kumdo, jiandao, whatever....) the phrase, can be dated all the way back all the way back to 春秋 period (sorry, don't know the english translation for them, i think it's about 3000-3500 years ago, not sure). The concepts of japanese kendo is the same or very similar to the kendo they speak of in those ancient chinese literatures, as they were based on the Daoist ideals and concepts. It's pretty obvious, since the word 道 (dao, do....) is there.

Also, Korean and Japanese cultures are affected most by the Tang dynasty, not the sung dynasty. As Tang dynasty was one of the most prosperous dynasty of all Chinese history, and was the biggest influence to the neighboring countries, such as korea, japan, vietnam.... That is the dynasty where Japan sent all those people to China to learn and imitate the Chinese culture, that's when they started using Chinese words and stuff too, if i'm not mistaken.

Japanese's sword style, is developed throughout the Japanese history, as is Korean sword style through Korean histroy. So, the origin of kendo and kumdo is different. But, how they practice kendo or kumdo right now is pretty much the same thing. Same exercieses, same foot work, everything... I have a few friends who are korean and practiced in korean kumdo dojangs, and they do exactly the same things we do in kendo, just no sonkyo, that's like the only difference. And on the style of fighting, they all do one-shot style kendo. But, me, who learned in kendo dojos, have always liked doing combos.I haven't seen a lot of people who's from korean dojangs, but I've seen a good number of people from kendo dojos who like do crazy combos until they get a point. So, style is mostly personal preferance and also influenced by senseis.


Conclusion, kendo is kumdo is 劍道. So, when you are talking about kendo or kumdo, you are talking about the same thing. Pretty sure korean and japanese people know this too, that's why when they fight about it, they fight about the origin of it, not the difference of it. As far as I'm concerned, the term of kendo is Chinese, but the swordsmanship is different in Korea, Japan, and China, and other countries too.

[Chuujou-Hyuogo]

1910 (maybe) KENDO was first inported to Korea.
(Before 20th centry there was no Kendo-like martial arts in Korea)

1945 (perhaps) Koreans changed the name of KENDO to KUMDO.
(Before the end of WW2 nobody had heard the name KUMDO)

1995 (I guess) Koreans created the new "history" of KUMDO,
and started propaganda.
(Before late of 90's no Japanese/no Koreans had heard the story
that Koreans had exported KENDO to Japan)

2000 Some Japanese found Korean's propaganda on internet,
and started arguement.


KENDO & KENJUTSU has long history, and Koreans claim that KUMDO does, too.
Then why arguements like this never happened before 21th centry?
Now only very few Japanese know Korean's propaganda, but if many of them get to know it,
they will get angry and anti-Korean sentiment will be spread out seriously.

Actually there is no contribution to KENDO by Koreans.
No skill, no gear, no rule, no Japanese sword, and no swordmanship by Koreans.
The only one thing Koreans did was to have translated KENDO to KUMDO.
We strongly hope Koreans to stop distort the history and stop to use the word "KUMDO".

[Yowai]

....

Thank you.

[pamiro]

Someone cant say that he invented that sport just because he is good at that !
even though koreans become the world champions (lets imagine for a while?!) they cant argue on kendo's origin!

Kasparov didnt invent the chess, santana didn't invented the guitar,christopher columbus didnt invent America (it sounds stupid no?)

kendo is japaneese and it will forever be like that, no matter even if it is called kumdo, jumbo, bimbo...
i think we, people who practice KENDO should try to respect the sprit of kendo, sprit of japan and try to practice this "martial art" ( i dont like calling it as a "sport") considering this important aspects, without turning the "dojos" to "gyms", dojo is not a gym, hakama is not a skirt, bokken is not a wooden stick ...
and kendo is not just hitting to other peoples head...

[aru-ma]

Actually there is no contribution to KENDO by Koreans.
No skill, no gear, no rule, no Japanese sword, and no swordmanship by Koreans.
The only one thing Koreans did was to have translated KENDO to KUMDO.
We strongly hope Koreans to stop distort the history and stop to use the word "KUMDO".

In this sense then, Americans and other countries should stop calling footbal soccer and the every english speaker should stop using the term saute (a cooking method) and use the proper word which is sate (pronounced sa te). There is nothing wrong with adjusting words or terms into your own language, I'm pretty sure you've noticed such things in Japan too, it's just translated even if according to you it's late.

here's an interesting what if situation (no need to answer):
What if Japan had not invaded Korea and Korean martial arts were to flourish as japanese martial arts has?

[Chuujou-Hyuogo]

Thank you, I love you!! (^o^)/

To aru-ma
Yes, you are right. Japanese calls baseball "Yakyuu", but noone cares.
But about Korea, there is some special situation...
After 20th centry many Japanese cultures were introduced to Korea.
Among those cultures, things Koreans call it in Japanese pronunciation
(ex. sushi, udon=a kind of noodle, takuwan=a kind of pickles, katsudon=rice-bowl with pork cutlet)
are recognized "from Japan".
But things Koreans changed calling in Korean pronunciation
(ex. Judo, Aikido, Sado, Karaoke, Manga, and of course Kendo)
are recognized as Korean culture!!
So I think it's better for both country to use the name "Kendo".



The word "Kendo" was born in 1919.
Nationalists changed the name "Jujutsu" "Kenjutsu" "Kyuujutsu"
to "Judo" "Kendo" "Kyuudo"
"Do (way)" was emphasized for mental education.
This was one of the militalism waves rising in early 20th centry,
same waves made Japan invade Korea.
And Japan military forced Kendo to Korean students...

And in the end of 20th centry, Koreans started to claim their country
is origin of "Way of Sword".
This sounds very ironical for Japanese, and cruel fact for Korean peaple.
But fact is fact.
Sigh...

[Chuujou-Hyuogo]

Sorry right post is this


To Pamiro
Thank you, I love you!! (^o^)/

[dorkusxmaximus]

I don't think the Koreans took the word manga and made it Korean. Their pronounciation of it doesn't even sound close to manga. The way that it's pronounced sounds more Chinese. I do admit that the attributes of Korean manga characters look kind of similar to the style of Japanese manga.

[kgh]

I do admit that the attributes of Korean manga characters look kind of similar to the style of Japanese manga.

Come now, you have to admit it is more than "kind of" and there is good reason for it. Japanese pop-culture is extremely popular in South Korea. Even with government bans on importing such goods (due to the previous 35 years of Japanese occupation), consumers are hungry for it and items such as anime, manga, films, music, and fashion can be readily found.

Now, I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. Most, if not all countries have borrowed and adapted elements from other cultures throughout history. Japan is a prime example of adopting and making things their own. (language, religion, music, fashion, art, technology, etc)

[xvikingx]

Problem is not borrowing/adapting kendo or pronouncing words in your native tongue. The problem is making up a false history of kendo. It is extremely offensive. If this were merely a matter of difference in pronunciation this would not be an issue.

[kgh]

I totally agree. My response was aimed only at the previous comment on manga.

[xvikingx]

I totally agree. My response was aimed only at the previous comment on manga.
Sorry I didn't mean to seem like I was getting on your ass about the manga thing.

[kgh]

Not a problem. I should have made it clear that I was not responding about the kendo vs kumdo topic at hand. Leave it to me to pick out the one off topic item in a thread and comment on it ;)

[pamiro]

i believe someone doesnt have the right to learn an art and then change the name of it( i believe it is unrespectful), unless the thing you are doing at the end is 80% different than the first one.

but as we said because of some reasons we have examples of this (football vs. soccer ect.)
if tomorrow i open my own dojo, will i have the rights to call it "pamdo"?? it just depends on me? to my ethics and the people around me who are practicing in my dojo ...

call it what you want, but you cant change the history...

[kgh]

I just rememberd that along with bushido, it has also been claimed that samurai find their roots in the "Hwarang Warriors" of Korea. Sure history if full of facts, but doesn't fiction make for a much better read. :p
You can read more here: http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd1.htm

Below is an excerpt (Why do I feel like I am stirring up trouble :surprise: )

This Hwarangdo system eventually spread to Japan and was very influential in the development of the Japanese Samurai system and Bushido (Korean-Musado, this is the moral mentality of the Hwarang and samurai). During this time much of the Japanese culture originated from the Korean kingdoms of Silla, Koguryo and Packche. Along with social customs, martial aspects were passed across the sea to Japan. So the counterpart of the Silla Hwarang was the Japanese Shogun, and the counterpart of the Silla Rangdo was the Japanese shogun's soldiers (their samurai). It is also thought that the family of the founder of Jujitsu was also connected to the Hwarang warriors. The name of this "Jujitsu " founder is "Shinna Sabro ", and the Korean pronunciation of his name is "Silla Samrang." There were many Koreans who moved to other countries, and because they still felt strong ties to their homeland they used this kingdom's name as their maiden name. The meaning of this founder's name is "Silla third man," so it is thought that this founder's ancestors came from the kingdom of "Silla ".
Japanese soft styles such as Judo (mostly a sport version of throwing and chocking), Daitoryu Yawara (same as Aiki Jujitsu - mostly throwing, joint manipulation, and grappling), and Aikido (mostly the use of an opponent's strength, and joint manipulation) were the same skills that evolved from Jujitsu. But, in Japan the Daitoryu yawara (Aiki Jujitsu) and Jujitsu name has been disbanded, and presently these branch schools are called Judo and Aikido schools. However, the Jujitsu that has become poular in present times is called Brazilian Jujitsu and is mostly focused on grappling and ground locks. All of these Japanese soft style skills share many similarities with the soft style "Yusool" skills of the ancient secret combat skills of the Hwarang which are called "Um Yang Kwon " (Yusool -soft skills and Kangsool -hard skills). Because of these many similarities and the meaning of the founder's name, it is thought that Jujitsu's roots lie in the Hwarang tradition of Korea.

[Chuujou-Hyuogo]

Please visit this site.
http://kumdo.co.kr/kendoacademy/index.html
This is "Kendo Academy" managed by Korean.

******************

What is Kendo(Kumdo)?

Kumdo is an ancient form of martial art with its origins in Korea.
Kumdo means "The way of the sword" and its ancient form originated in Korea nearly two thousand years ago as a form of sword fighting used by warriors to defend their territorial hold over the country.
Kumdo is therefore founded on a strong sense of patriotism and loyalty to one's fellow countrymen and family.
Also, as a sword symbolized a power over one's life, Kumdo soon developed into a true martial art and a way of life in the heart as opposed to a brutal method of combat.
In the 18th century, Kumdo was reshaped to its present form using bamboo swords and protective gear to make Kumdo safer to practice without compromising any of its focus on spiritual and mental prowess.
Although strength and speed play important roles, one cannot master the art of Kumdo without a pure and unadulterated state of mind and heart.
It is this aspect of Kumdo which makes it very appealing and beneficial as it intensively trains both mind and body.
Kumdo is a very popular martial art with over three million current practitioners all over the world.

"Kumdo is one of the hardest martial arts to practice, but it will be the most valuable sport of all"

*********************

What do you think of this?

[xvikingx]

Is it just me or are we all argueing the same point?

[Shiro]

I read somewhere that the early japanese swords came from Korea and China, but they were straight. The katana and its curved shape are genuinely japanese.

[dwang]

instead of focus on ken-do/kum-do

i think what's more important is the "do" or tao (in chinese).
for me practice it's about self realizeation. It's all about the individual(me). You sensi is mere a guide; he can show you the way and no more. There are all different way to reach the destination; but the general direction is the same. There might be minor difference but the goal and apporch are the same. For any "tao" be it martial arts or philosiphy and etc once you have reach certain level it's all more spiritual than form; but in order to reach that level most of us will have to go through practice of the form. Our body and spirit are one and to strength both through kendo/kumdo is the method i have choose.

--
David

[Yowai]

instead of focus on ken-do/kum-do
...
David

Don't you have a ledge to sit on?

[ALI G]

Don't you have a ledge to sit on?

probablyz notz..........but youz can sitz on da ledge soz wez can push youz off.

[Will]

Being Korean and all...I think the slight differences between kendo and kumdo are result of the typical Korean pompous attitude. (man tha'ts gonna offend people) But honestly, us Koreans are a highly exclusive class of people, we try to not let any foreign influences effect us. While walking around campus, the second most common language I hear other than English is Korean. Not because Koreans make up a majority of the students on my campus(they don't), but rather they exclude themselves to anyone but Koreans. I think this is sort of what happens in Kumdo and Kendo. Koreans want to differentiate Kumdo into their own sport because of Korean attitudes. There are slight variation of style (the more sport element) and such, and by creating these variations Koreans believe they have their own martial art.

To make some things clear right now, I'm not saying that ALL koreans are pompous, I'm just saying a lot of older Koreans are very prideful of who their culture and definitely don't want to have the Japanese accredited to anything they consider theirs. (This topic is not addressing which nation created the way of the sword btw, but rather why there are differences between the two) Koreans just want to be seperate from the Japanese.

Think for a moment, in Kendo tournaments, I've known that Kumdo dojos (or rather dojangs) have been invited. I don't know if Kendo dojos are invited to Kumdo tournaments, but I have a feeling that they aren't. But why?

This seperation goes further. At Cal there is a Kumdo class and a Kendo dojo (right next ot the campus). The Kumdo instructor is Sandan, our Kendo instructor is Hachidan (yeah big difference). Our Kendo instructor offered to teach a Kendo class on campus, for free even, but the Korean head of the UC martial arts program did not want to have a Japanese man (especially one higher ranking than him) teach the class. I've seen the students of the Kumdo class, and simply put they're horrible. They can't even hit men correctly (and then their instructor have them practice tsuki! what the hell). I'm not attacking Kudmo right here, I'm just saying that this instructor is not as good as our instructor, but he still decided to instruct the Kumdo class because of his pride.

So what's the point of my message? Basically, Kumdo is Kumdo with it's slight variations so that it isn't Japanese. The Koreans don't want anything Japanese to be a part of their culture. They want to have their own philosophies to be involved in their teachings. If Kendo had the "flurry of attacks" that Kumdo is considered to consists of, Kumdo might have the "one strike attack" instead, simply because it's different from what the Japanese have.

In my humble opinion, I believe that we should all just get along...but for some reason, Koreans still want to be seperate from the Japanese Kendo. In fact, they want to start their own American federation (http://www.kumdo.net). We all know that Kendo in America is small, relative to Korean and Japan, so what is the point of having a seperate federation for Kumdo. I mean, both forms compete in the WKC together, so why have different federations in a single country? Simple fact...Koreans just want to be seperate.

So the differences in Kumdo and Kendo are not because of the origins of the art, but rather the cultures between the two. This is caused by the Korean anti-Japanese feelings from the older generation (especailly those who lived during the Japanese occupation of WWII, such as the Kumdo instructor I spoke of earlier). I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm just saying the point for the differences.

[m_fugue]

[신복룡교수의 한국사 새로보기]화랑과 상무정신

.... 먼저 분명히 해두어야 할 것은 화랑이 그토록 극찬을 받은 지는 지금으로부터 50년이 채 되지 않았다는 사실이다.

화랑을 긍정적으로 평가한 최초의 역사학자는 1920년대 단재 신채호(申采浩)였다. 이어 1930년대 일제 치하 일본 역사학자 미시나 아키히데(三品彰英)와 이케우치 히로시(池內宏)가 화랑을 거론할 때만 해도 그렇게 찬란한 존재가 아니었고 그저 화랑이라는 존재가 있었다는 것을 확인하는 정도였다.

그러다가 한국전쟁이 일어나자 이승만(李承晩) 대통령이 청년의 애국심이 필요하다고 생각하고, 당시 육군본부 정훈감이었으며 나중에 정신문화연구원장을 지낸 역사학자 이선근(李瑄根) 대령에게 한국사에서 청년 문화의 유산을 발굴하라고 지시했다.

이에 따라 이 대령이 ‘화랑도연구’(1954)를 출판했을 때 화랑은 하루 아침에 한국사에서 가장 위대한 청년 문화의 유산으로 부상했다. 그의 주장을 빌리면 이충무공(李忠武公), 개화파, 독립협회, 동학혁명, 3·1운동이 온통 화랑 정신을 빛낸 사람들이나 사건들이었다는 것이다.

화랑의 본래 모습이 과연 그런 것이었을까? 화랑이 당초 여자였다는 것은 학계에서도 다 인정하고 있는 사실이다. 최초의 화랑은 원화(源花)라고 불렸으며, 그들이 하는 일은 추석때 서라벌에서 아낙네들이 모여 패를 갈라 길쌈내기를 하던, 이를테면 부락 축제의 리더 역할이었다....

http://dongacc.com/main/news/01040701.htm

[m_fugue]

You could observe a striking similarity between the history of Kumdo and that of the other Korean TMA.

-----

http://www.bstkd.com/CAPENER.1.HTM

Problems in the identity and Philosophy of T'aegwondo and Their Historical Causes By: Dr. Steven D. Capener, Korean Journal (Winter, 1995) (Dr. Capener has resided in Seoul, Korea for the past decade, and is a professor at Ehwa University.)

It has been postulated that t'aegwondo is Korea's most effective diplomatic tool, achieving what Korea's most skilled diplomats have been unable to accomplish; that is, bring the citizens of advanced western countries to an attitude of respect before the Korean flag. It has been further argued that t'aegwondo, as the Korean national sport, and one of the repositories of traditional, indigenous Korean culture, plays a vital role in preserving traditional Korean culture in the face of western cultural imperialism.

T'aegwondo, a martial sport, has been given these rather weighty responsibilities because t'aegwondo has been popularized as a unique product of Korean culture, continuously extant in Korean history since the beginning of the Three Kingdoms period, some 1300 years ago. The importance placed on (his history of unique development within Korea is understandable as it provides t'aegwondo with a Korean pedigree (chokpo) granting legitimacy as a traditional Korean institution imbued with an ancient and mysterious past which not only holds great appeal to non-Koreans, but also serves as a source of national pride to Koreans themselves who crave an internationally recognizable symbols of their culture.....

The main cause of these problems is found in the history of t'aegwondo's origins. The fact that t'aegwondo was first brought into Korea from Japan in the form of Japanese karate around the time of the liberation of Korea from Japanese colonial rule, and the way this fact has been dealt with in Korea has left many serious inconsistencies in the way t'aegwondo has been developed within Korea and propagated abroad.

This process of development can be broadly outlined as follows: Japanese karate called kongsudo or tangsudo was introduced to Korea just after liberation from Japan by Koreans who had learned karate in Japan. Upon returning, these Koreans opened karate gymnasiums promoting what they were teaching as karate, much like the process followed by the early Judo instructors. Well after these schools became established, the need to "Koreanize" was felt. The process of Koreanization consisted of three main aspects. The first was the selection of a new, non-Japanese name. The second was the creation of a system of techniques and training which was distinctly different from that of karate, and the third was the attempt to establish t'aegwondo's existence and development within tile historical flow of Korean civilization. The development of a new system of techniques and training was under-taken by moving away from karate's nature as a martial art of self-defense through the development of t'aegwondo as a sport. This has been called the "competitionalization" or sportization of t'aegwondo.

This, however, is where the problems which still plague t'aegwondo had their genesis. First of all, the concept of martial art based on the Chinese philosophical concept of tao was developed in Japan beginning with the transformation of swordmanship from a battlefield necessity to a form of philosophic human movement. This philosophical concept, as it was applied to fighting skills by the Japanese, did not exist in Korea. Rather, during the last half of the Choson dynasty, physical activity, especially of a martial nature, became all object of scorn and a sign of low breeding as seen in the royal court attitude of valuing learning and disregarding martial skill. Koreans' first concrete exposure to this concept of martial art was through the martial arts training judo and kendo under the militaristic education policy effected by the Japanese during the colonial period. This concept was reinforced with the entry of karate into Korea. The propagation of the philosophies associated with karate flourished as did many other Japanese policies and methodologies. This was especially true in the sport and physical education realms as can be seen by the fact that the faculty of the physical education department of Seoul National University at that time consisted almost exclusively of Japanese trained educators whose teaching and training methods were exclusively Japanese....

This lack of investment in a philosophical foundation for the newly emerging phenomenon of competition t'aegwondo in the 1960s and the dependence on Japanese concepts and philosophies (which correspond more to a zen martial art of self-defense than to a martial sport) have left t'aegwondo split into two identities. One is the competition identify, the only form which realistically exists today in Korea and which is responsible for t'aegwondo having a structure distinguishable from that of karate. The other is the so-called martial art identity which is ironically referred to as "traditional" t'aegwondo but which is still strongly based, both technically and philosophically, on the foundation of Japanese karate. This problem results from efforts by t'aegwondo leaders to distort the real history of t'aegwondo's development by not acknowledging its Japanese origins. Therefore, competition t'aegwondo which is actually "traditional" t'aegwondo by virtue of the fact that it was developed wholly in Korea in keeping with Koreans' traditional affinity for competitive forms of physical activity is regarded as subordinate to the martial art nature of' t'aegwondo which has very little relation to traditional Korean customs or thinking, as least as they existed in the last several hundred years. Consequently, the techniques and training systems of competition t'aegwondo which were developed exclusively in Korea are not recognized for their value as the original core of t'aegwondo because to do so would be to acknowledge that Korean t'aegwondo is a very recent phenomenon, having a history of not more than a few decades. Because of this, little effort has been given to investigating and formulating a philosophical and educational foundation for competition t'aegwondo which could help in overcoming the weaknesses inherent in competitive sport and help to establish a universal culture which will, ultimately, do more for its development than ethnocentric assertions regarding its heritage....

[Shiro]

Thanx for the link Sminki....

Have a look at this history of kumdo
http://www.kumdo.com/2003/kumdo/history.html

On that history page, the principles of Kumdo are like copy/pasted from the principles of Kendo.....
http://www.kendo.or.jp/english-page/english-page2/concept-of-Kendo.htm

I think this proves Kumdo is a copy/paste of Kendo ;).

But don't get me wrong, I have no probs with Kumdo.

[ALI G]

In my humble opinion, I believe that we should all just get along...but for some reason, Koreans still want to be seperate from the Japanese Kendo. In fact, they want to start their own American federation (http://www.kumdo.net).

Whatz da hellz?????????????????Allz da picturdz onlyz haz Koreanz!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dontz C no other culturez reprezented...Iz Diz StrictlyZ Korean Onlyz??????????????????????????????

[Chuujou-Hyuogo]

http://www.hwarangkumdo.com/main.htm

This Kumdo site is funny!!
In spite of claiming Korean origin of Kumdo,
On the top page... see a picture of two swords on a rack...
On a rack... You see the emblem of Tokugawa Shogun family!!! lol
Maybe this pic was stolen from other Kendo site.
I think this is an evidence who stole the history.

[pamiro]

http://www.hwarangkumdo.com/main.htm

This Kumdo site is funny!!
In spite of claiming Korean origin of Kumdo,
On the top page... see a picture of two swords on a rack...
On a rack... You see the emblem of Tokugawa Shogun family!!! lol
Maybe this pic was stolen from other Kendo site.
I think this is an evidence who stole the history.

it says in the introduction ;

The Sword. Shining, One edge is Sharp.... yet another edge is Dull.... It is comfortable in your hands. You feel the warmth... Straight, made out of Steel.... Strong and unbendable.... You could feel the Power. You have the Control. The Energy.


woww! :p

[Nanbanjin]

Maybe kendo started with the fist ape to hit another ape over the head with a stick.

The "kendo/kumdo which came first" argument seems to have only intensified in recent years with the possible inclusion of kendo at the Olympics.
Koreans seem to have more influence with the Olympic comittee than Japanese, so Japanese kendo officials are worried that kendo will be introduced to the world in its Korean form and will lose its Japanese identity. And more importantly, that Japan will lose control over world kendo.

Because the argument has become political rather than historical, truth has taken a back seat. The interested parties will put forward any amount of bullshit and present it as gospel if it advances their argument.

If you find this unusual just observe any political debate in your country. See how any truth is bent out of its original form to represent a particular point of view.

[Yoshihiro]

Knowing that such an argument had occurred, I was very much surprised.

The Korean ancestor had a sword by one hand,had a shield by one hand.
There are some persons who say, "There was a sword of Two Hand also by Korea."
However, when Korea invaded Japan with Mongolian,
all Korean soldiers were armed with the shield in the one hand sword.
Evaluation of a Japanese sword increased by this fighting and the Korean expedition of Japan in 1592 - 1598.
Katana comes to be exported to China, the Netherlands, Portugal, etc.

Shinai, Hakama, kote, etc. are the things created in Japan.
The Japanese samurai was called "barbarian" Dozens years(20-40) ago in South Korea.
South Koreans abhorred the Japanese sword,
and when telecasting a Katana, they had obscured the image.

Why do you assert such a thing now?

I think it wonderful that Korean people have kendo loved and strive for practice.

World Kendo Championships and Eika Vs Kim carry out that it was only wonderful,
but I do not think it good that differing from truth is circulated all over the world.

A tool of Japan is used.
It fights with a rule of Japan.
but "this Budo a Korean thing ","A Japanese thing is imitation."
Please do not say such a thing.

The Korean American is numerous.
Someday, "What South Koreans say is right" will be said.
It is sad.

I am sorry to be English which is hard to read.

[k3nsh1n]

I agree with a post by 'Will' about the pride of koreans and their needs to differentiate themselves with any culture that belongs to the japs.
Most people will agree that kendo does originate in Japan and I for one agree that this is true.
However, many of you must ask yourselves why YOU believe this is true.
Unlike the Japanese, Koreans do not spend as much time, effort and money in introducing their deep history to the world apart from themselves.
While the Japanese are busily spreading their culture, koreans are relatively quiet and do not expend their resources in making their history widely known.
Not only this but a large chunk of korean history was lost the moment the Japanese took over the country during WW2.
This is not an excuse to say 'so kumdo 'could' be korean', as i've said i do belive and certain that kendo IS Japanese.
But many of you are saying kendo has no history in korea to this date and so and so without even knowing the countries history.
Everyone knows about the kimono in Japan.
But i would bet there is hardly ne of you who know anything about 'hanbok' in korea.
If you's saw the two, no doubtedly alot of you would assume the koreans stole that from the Japs. Understandable. However Korea has a much longer history of 'hanbok' then the Japs with the Kimono.
If you dont know anything about the country, you shouldnt say nothing on it.
Though i am aware that Koreans do borrow alot from the Japs, the Japs borrow alot from Koreans too. So dont say 'koreans steal from japs, so they stole the history of kendo'. One ridiculous thing i heard was that TaeKwanDo is Japanese.
Why? because TKD looks similar to Karate? give me a break.
Lastly, so what if korea calls kendo 'kumdo'. That's how it is pronounced in korean. The way Koreans pronounce the sport shouldnt become an issue in a debate of the origin of kendo.

[slidercrank]

One ridiculous thing i heard was that TaeKwanDo is Japanese.
Why? because TKD looks similar to Karate? give me a break.

Did you read the post from m_fugue in the previous page?

[Nanbanjin]

I heard that Japanese used to kidnap whole Korean eathernware pottery villages because the Korean craft was so highly revered. My mother's pottery teacher said that Korean artisans had a great influence on the development of Japanese pottery.
Interesting in the light of the bizarre recent kidnappings of Japanese by Northe Korea.

Korea seems to have really had a hard time of it throughout history. I don't claim to be an expert on Korea, but haven't they been at war or invaded for more than a hundred years. I am pretty sure that there were earlier invasions by the Japanese. I think this is what Yoshihiro called "the Korean expedition of Japan in 1592 - 1598."
Hint of a euphemism there.
Aren't Koreans still officially at war with themselves?

I have heard of Japanese who claim no common ancestry with Koreans, like they are not even the same species or something. A debate about the origin of Kendo seems undertandable compared with this.

[Shazzanzzz]

Japanese and Korean cultures are very similar to Chinese too. I mean, they both use Chinese for a big chunk of their history, and Japanese still use it. Pretty much everything Korean and Japanese use originated in China, like chop sticks, clothing, pottery, and martial arts to a point. So Japanese and Koreans should really stop fighting about who was the predecessor of sometihng.

But, Kendo, as we know of it right now, is Japanese.

[m_fugue]

보통한국인들은 조선시대당시 일본이 한국보다 문화적으로 뒤떨어졌다고 하는데 당시 임진왜란 당시 일본에서 생활한 영국이나 포루투갈인의 기록이나 하멜의 기록..그리고 역사적인 연구결과에 의하면 그렇지 않다고 보고있죠..

조선시대의 기록에 일본이 야만인이라고 기록되있는 것은 다른 이유가 아니라 유교적인 조선에 비해서 일본은 성의 풍습이 문란해서 그런 겁니다..그런 이유로 조선은 19세기까지 공식적인 석상까지 일본을 왜로 불렀죠..일본측에서 그것에 불만을 표시했지만 우리의 위대한 조상님께서는 끝까지 '왜'로 부르는 강직함을..

조선통신사'란 것도 당시 일본이 도쿠가와 이에야스가 정통성을 받기위해서 옆나라인 조선에 필요에 의해서 불렀던 것입니다..일본은 이것을 조공이라고 불렀죠..당시 조선의 국제적인 위상을 잘 보여주는 기록으로

류쿠왕국(오키나와의 옛 왕조)보다 중국에서 더 낮은 취급을 받았다고하니까...참고로 류쿠왕국은 일본 지방 호족중에 하나인 시마즈가문에 의해 일본에 복속되는 왕국이죠

개황할때 조선의 생활상을 본 외국인들은 조선을 지칭해서 반문명국이라고 했죠..문명국이라고 하기엔 너무 야만적이고 야만이라고하기엔 아프리카토인보다는 나으니까요..당시의 외국인이 쓴 책을 보면(이것은 제 3자의 시각에서 조선을 평가할 수 있는 사료기때문에)조선이 증오스럽죠..역사학을 공부하면서 조선처럼 싫..

조선이라는 나라는 알면 알수록 실망스럽고 저주스럽고 싫은 나라죠..보통의 역사는 알면 알수록 새롭고 흥미가 있는데 조선은 알면 알수록 실망을 금치 못하죠..특히 요즘에 발표되는 논문들은 더더욱 조선을 싫어하게 만들죠..

[Bokuto no Ryu]

If you find this unusual just observe any political debate in your country. See how any truth is bent out of its original form to represent a particular point of view.

I couldn't agree with you more. A balant example I've seen of that recently was what the Minister of Defence of Portugal said recently. He said that the Portuguese people should not be ashamed of their history, that they did nothing shameful in the colonies; in fact, what went on in the Portuguese colonies was better than other countries' colonies. Obviously this poor excuse of a person is perverting history. My girlfriend is from Guiné-Bissau and she has told me what her parents and grandparents suffered under the portuguese occupation. One finds it hard to believe that humans would do such things to one another, but then again, what we say everyday in the news makes it undeniable. Also, the Minister of Defence seems to have forgotten the massacre at São Tomé e Príncipe, where a whole village was killed just to cover up the portuguese govenor's corruption. Such a sad, sad world we live in...

[Nanbanjin]

I couldn't agree with you more. A balant example I've seen of that recently was what the Minister of Defence of Portugal said recently. He said that the Portuguese people should not be ashamed of their history, that they did nothing shameful in the colonies; in fact, what went on in the Portuguese colonies was better than other countries' colonies. Obviously this poor excuse of a person is perverting history. My girlfriend is from Guiné-Bissau and she has told me what her parents and grandparents suffered under the portuguese occupation. One finds it hard to believe that humans would do such things to one another, but then again, what we say everyday in the news makes it undeniable. Also, the Minister of Defence seems to have forgotten the massacre at São Tomé e Príncipe, where a whole village was killed just to cover up the portuguese govenor's corruption. Such a sad, sad world we live in...
(sound of penny dropping) Hey, you've just made me realise that where kendo came from is fairly insignificant when you think about it from a global perspective. I am sure the people of São Tomé e Príncipe would agree at least.

[cazoo]

god damn it! they're basically the same! if the koreans still insist on "we were first" bull shit, why dont they just make their own international kumdo federation and host their own torunaments instead of joining kendo tournaments?! if they want to be part of the IKF follow the IKF rules, and dont bother changeing their equiptments to "kumdo" sytle(the white pants)...

[Karaken]

god damn it! they're basically the same! if the koreans still insist on "we were first" bull shit, why dont they just make their own international kumdo federation and host their own torunaments instead of joining kendo tournaments?! ..

They did.

Center

[Dan Shea]

It is very disparaging to see Korea creatively performing some revisionist history, but they aren't the only one's who have done it. Most countries at some point or another do this to help propagate their political agenda.

Heck, the Japanese did this to their own warrior class in order to further improve the publics support of nationalist war policies. Read Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa and you can see some of this in action. The movie 47 Ronin (not Chusingura but the original 1936 version) was a very propagandist film to help stoke the fires for WWII. All countries do this.

What concerns me is that they are attempting to wrest control of an art from another country in modern times through propaganda and revisionist history. I would have liked to think that tricks like this are not as effective in modern times thanks to the spread of information on a near global scale.

Unfortunately people will buy into this hook line and sinker and the McDojangs will start springing up in the US like weeds.

Popularizing an art has its downsides along with its ups and I think the world would be better off without charlatans with monetary and politcal agendas defrauding a nation of their cultural heritage merely because they were wronged in the past and are still sore about it.

Heck, I know Korean Americans who never set foot on Korean soil angry about what Japan did 70-75 years ago. By their logic I should be angry at the English simply because I am of Irish descent, or I should malign the Spanish in some way because my I am Basque. I just don't buy it.

That kind of meaningless hatred has to end somewhere and this kind of tom foolery only seeks to perpetuate it with endless arguments over nothing.

We're better served by discussing the socio politcal impact of the Smurfs. :)

Sorry for ranting but in my eyes nationalism is pointless and only serves to create further conflicts between people. But I'm one of those touchy feely zen types who likes to sit in the cold drinking hot tea and staring at the icicles forming on the porch.:chinese:

Have a good night folks!

[Chuujou-Hyuogo]

[QUOTE=Dan Shea]
Heck, the Japanese did this to their own warrior class in order to further improve the publics support of nationalist war policies. Read Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa and you can see some of this in action. The movie 47 Ronin (not Chusingura but the original 1936 version) was a very propagandist film to help stoke the fires for WWII. All countries do this.


Yoshikawa's MUSASHI contains many fictional episodes, but those are for entertainment. Not for nationalistic propaganda.
47 Ronin movie was used as nationalistic propaganda, but it's a historical fact. Not fiction.
Utterly different from what Koreans doing with Kumudo.
No countries do things like this except some fanatic communist countries like North Korea.
(though there is no Kumdo dojo in North Korea)

[Dan Shea]

Yoshikawa's MUSASHI contains many fictional episodes, but those are for entertainment. Not for nationalistic propaganda.
47 Ronin movie was used as nationalistic propaganda, but it's a historical fact. Not fiction.
Utterly different from what Koreans doing with Kumudo.
No countries do things like this except some fanatic communist countries like North Korea.
(though there is no Kumdo dojo in North Korea)
I think you've misread what I have said.
I'll leave it at that.
Good day.

[mero]

This perposterous Japanese insistence and propaganda that Kumdo is an exclusive term attributable to only Japanese fencing aka Kendo stems from Japanese Revisionism. Two handed swords originated in China and metallurgy and swordsmith techniques used to create Nihonto all originate from either China or Korea.