An insight into why Australians find it hard to love America

[ben]

AND the Australian government... This is how we see things on our side of the pond. From today's "The Age" newspaper:


US lashed over 'double standards' on Hicks trial
By Annabel Crabb
Canberra
July 10 2003


As the United States prepares to try Australian David Hicks in a military tribunal that could impose a death penalty, Australia is finalising arrangements to issue American citizens with immunity to prosecution by the International Criminal Court.

Former prime minister Malcolm Fraser yesterday excoriated the US Administration for pursuing "double standards" and said Australia should be refusing to sign any agreements with the US to exempt Americans from the new international court, especially when an Australian was being denied legal rights.

"The Americans have said that they should be above the reach of international law, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with them," he said.

Attorney-General Daryl Williams' office yesterday confirmed that the Government is negotiating with the US to sign an agreement in which Australia would promise never to hand American citizens over to the recently established International Criminal Court.

His office refused further comment, saying negotiations were continuing.

Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said there were still "quite a lot of outstanding issues that need to be resolved".

The US has successfully approached around 30 countries to sign the agreements. It refused to sign up to the court, but Australia did ratify it last year after passionate debate.

Mr Fraser said the world had been "trying for 50 years" to construct a system of international law that would govern relationships between states. "The criminal court was a very significant advance," he said. "To exempt by special treaty the citizens of any one country is putting that country over and above the reach of international law."

Tim McCormack, a Melbourne University international law expert, said the US approach was "blatantly inconsistent".

"If it was an American national in Australian hands, the Americans would have gone absolutely berserk about it," he said, pointing out that the sole American occupant of Guantanamo Bay detention camp for suspected terrorists, John Walker Lindh, had a criminal trial, while non-US citizens, such as Hicks, will be tried by military tribunals with fewer legal rights.

Prime Minister John Howard yesterday denied he had prejudiced Hicks' hearing by claiming this week that the Adelaide-born detainee had admitted to training with terrorist organisation al-Qaeda, claims his family denies. "No, I haven't prejudiced his trial," Mr Howard said, but refused to disclose the basis for his claims.

- with Greg Roberts, Mark Russell


This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/09/1057430274727.html

[slidercrank]

If an American citizen is captured while fighting in the jungles of East Timor against Australian troops for an organization that has a part in blowing up the Sydney Opera House full of people, I doubt any American administration is going to do much about the guy.

Contrary to your impression, plenty of Americans are in prison all over the world, many for crimes that are quite heinous. You don't see the Delta commandos storming here and there to rescue them, do you?

Of course, I'm presuming that David Hicks fought for Taliban and that Taliban had a culpable role in 9/11. These presumptions are not in any case the foucs of the Australian press, or so I gather.

Many foreigners sometimes cannot quite comprehend what 9/11 meant to Americans. They'd say, "oh, it's terrible, someone will pay." To us (actually, not all of us) , it's nothing less than Pearl Harbor. Incidentally, more people died on 9/11 than at Pearl Harbor. If some of the US government's actions seem extreme (and some of them do seem extreme even to me), it's because when one's security and existence are threatened, one tends to respond extremely. Even a western democracy is not immune to it. Witness the unconditional detention of Japanese-Americans during WW2. That was a mistake, but perhaps unavoidable given the time and circumstance. Compare the current military tribunals and detentions at Guantanamo to what happened in WW2 both in the US and others, at least we can say we have progressed a bit.

If Australians cannot love America, all I can say is that Australia's security and prosperisty have not been so threatened.

[xvikingx]

here here slidercrank... well put.

By the way Ben, I don't think anyone here asked why Aussies don't like yanks. So bugger off...

[Simon]

Perhaps Ben was referring to why Aussies don't like the American approach to Foreign Policy more so than americans per se...

The article is specifically referring to the fact that an australian (guilty or not, who cares) is being tried with less than the rights an american got for the same crime (while the 2 countries were allies) and at the same time that government is attempting to ensure that the australian government will not "extradite" (I guess that isn't really the correct term for an international court but you get the idea) american citizens to a court which which will give the american citizens different legal rights to what they would receive in the US.

See the double standard?

This is of course a fairly easy article to write as most governments are behaving inconsistently when their entire actions are viewed (there are different departments with different agenda so of course the behaviour is inconsistent if viewed as being by a single entity).

However the australian populace is aware that an australian (who may or may not be guilty) is being tried by an allied country without the rights that the person would get in Australia for a crime committed in another country altogether. The logic doesn't quite appear to be there... surely as allies the US would extradite the suspect to Australia for the trial under australian law. That would make more sense than being tried in the US for a crime committed in a country that the US and Australia invaded...

Of course the whole thing is rather distasteful to a lot of americans as well and so perhaps that is why Ben's comment should be read without taking personal offense....

[ben]

Originally posted by xvikingx
here here slidercrank... well put.

By the way Ben, I don't think anyone here asked why Aussies don't like yanks. So bugger off...

I never said I didn't like the people. I use the term "America" as a term that refers to an ideology or a state of mind, rather than a person. It's also why I put this in the Flames forum.

:)
b

[John W]

All I can say is that the ripple effects of 9/11 will be felt for a long, long time to come yet:(

[LNGUYEN]

It doesn't have to be 9/11 to be use for any thing happen. Just read it this way: I am powerful, I don't go around to mess you up but if you are messing with me. You will be on my dinner menu and we will cook you any way we please. If anyone hurts someone else because of his ideology, he has just lost his human right and we should treat him as animal and we can chase him anyway we want.

[Ben F.]

The stupidity in US foreign policy can be clearly explained in just one word: Dubya.

[samurai999]

Well at least he did something about it unlike Clinton. Clinton had a chance to get Bin Laden when he was in custody. So the only thing Clinton did was to lob a couple of cruise missiles at a hospital and sat idling after the failed op in Somalia, the initial WTC bombings, the USS Cole and the US embassy bombing in Tanzania.. What good did that do?

John, you are right, the ripples that those few terrorists set off will propogate for a while. I think that the rest of the Islamic community should be ashamed of the people who set the wave in motion if they are the peaceful people that they claim to be. Nothing against Islam, but from all of the news that I see, it seems that they use their religion as some sort of divine reasoning to "rebel" against other people. At times, it looks like another cult. Like David Koresh's. Also, they seem to go to regions in strife and hard times in order to "recruit" people for their cause. Is something getting lost in the translation? There was even an article in Hokubei Mainichi that said that there was one Al Qaeda operative in Japan trying to learn how to dig tunnels and caves and trying to spread the word of "jihad" to other Japanese people. Well anyways, I'm not one to be prejudice and have some Islamic friends in kendo, but the religion of Islam has shown me nothing but images of kids waving AK-47s, suicide bombings, men wearing masks with Islamic writing waving guns in the air happy that their people take part in their holy war.


My $0.02 (US of course),
Tim

[Hongsermeier]

I do agree with Simon. The US foriegn policy is crap!!

Now for the second part of this. I appologize if I upset or offend anyone by saying this. I spent 1 year in the gulf serving my country. We made many port calls and got to meet lots of native people there. They do not like, respect, or care about anyone but themselves. They will shake your hands as friends then turn around and stab you in the back. Religion has nothing to do with it. It is taught to them from birth to be this way. If we had a bomb big enough to melt Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, United Arab Imerates, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Oman I would gladly push the button. :cross_eye

[Ben F.]

As opposed to us here in the US who always welcome strangers or foreigners with open arms. What a load! Look at the post Sept. 11 attacks on Americans of Arabic heritage or some people who weren't even Arabic.

The reason the Arabs hate us is our never ending, blind, unthinking support of Israel: a nation that oppresses Arabs and steals their land. I'd hate us to if I were them.

[Old Warrior]

"The reason the Arabs hate us is our never ending, blind, unthinking support of Israel: a nation that oppresses Arabs and steals their land. I'd hate us to if I were them."

The above is the most historically ignorant and blatant anti-semetic garbage that I have read in a while. Forget about learning Kendo - spend some time on history. Better yet, join Hamas a or get a job with Al Jazeera - they can always use another moron.

[Hongsermeier]

They do not only hate the US. They hate everyone who is not of the same thinking as them. Be that US, Japan, China or anyone else. They simply attack us more because we are a bigger target. Then they run and hide behind religion.

Ben..the people you speak of attacking people of Arabic decent are simply idiots looking for an excuse to beat up on someone. Just like the Rodney King riots. The dumb ass's burned down their own neighborhoods. :cross_eye

[JSchmidt]

" but the religion of Islam has shown me nothing but images of kids waving AK-47s, suicide bombings, men wearing masks with Islamic writing waving guns in the air happy that their people take part in their holy war. "

Then you are not looking very hard. ..imagine if people chose to only form their opinion of christinaity based on the recent cases of Catholic priests abusing children...or Northen Ireland.

Jakob

[xvikingx]

Then you are not looking very hard. ..imagine if people chose to only form their opinion of christinaity based on the recent cases of Catholic priests abusing children...or Northen Ireland.

Jakob [/B][/QUOTE]

Very true. The same goes for alot of negative opinions about Americans. It is a bit tiresome. I say this not because of this thread but because of repeated bashings from uninformed people. One of my favorite new ones is being compared to Nazis. About "taking this personal" from before I apologize.

[m_french]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
"The reason the Arabs hate us is our never ending, blind, unthinking support of Israel: a nation that oppresses Arabs and steals their land. I'd hate us to if I were them."

The above is the most historically ignorant and blatant anti-semetic garbage that I have read in a while. Forget about learning Kendo - spend some time on history. Better yet, join Hamas a or get a job with Al Jazeera - they can always use another moron.

Hat's off to OW:beard:

[Winter_Wolf]

Hello,
To quote a little green guy with big ears,
"Begun, this flame war has."
lol, sorry to easy
Thanks,
W.W.

[Hongsermeier]

Lets ALL take a deep breath and think for 1 min. Ignore the religion aspect. The hatred stems from ignorance. 85% of the population of Iraq can not read their own language. The are basically held captive by their own government. They are told what their Quran says. If what they are told is the truth, they have no idea. The other "middle east" countries are no different. The same can be said for people right here in the US. I know of people who don't get a news paper and have no TV. They rely on hearing things word of mouth. Get the people in the "middle east" into school and see what they think of the US in 10 or 15 years.
:cross_eye

[Ben F.]

OW-

I believe if you read my post, I didn't even mention Jewish persons at all. I was complaining about the American support of Israel. I never even used the word "Jew" or "Jewish."

Why is it anyone who disagrees with Israel or criticizes them is instantly an anti-Semite?

Touchy, touchy...

[Old Warrior]

Ben

I stand by my comments. I have never been to Israel and I am not a supporter of its politics. Israel, after being attacked by its neighbors in numerous unproked wars, having as their object the destruction of their sovereign nation, conquered their adversaries. They are not oppressors, rather they are defenders of their basic sovereignty, as their enemies are dedicated (in their basic charters - see PLO Charter) to their destruction. They possess the military assets to destroy every one of their neighbors; which is the only reason Israel still exists. Yet, they have made no attempt to do so except to root out those who daily cause their own version of 9/11. I oppose their "settlements", their drift toward religious orthodoxy, and many of their ethnocentric views - but history and reality are contrary to your dangerous views.

Now, the word[s] Jew or Jewish, appear nowhere in the above. Your comments remain ignorant and lacking in rational thought as well as sensitivity to true international law (not the UN's version of populaity voting). I'll bet you are also a "Holocaust Revisionist". The idea that a nation of that size, surrounded by mortal enemies 100 times its size, goes about oppressing anyone, does not exist in my reality.

[Hongsermeier]

Very well put OW. It basicaly boils down to the people of Arabic decent being told by their leaders they are supposed to destroy Israel according to the Quran. A power grab by their government. Since the general population can not read the Quran they simply do what their told. :cross_eye

[KhawMengLee]

erm....where are you getting this info from dude...it takes a lot more than someone telling you to blow yourself up to make you make that decision.

Sure, the PLO spouts this propaganda but at the same time you got to know that not a day goes by that the Palestinian's lives are not controlled by Israel.

To go to work, Palestinians have to bribe the checkpoint guards on a daily basis. When israeli troops accidentally shoot a palestinian child is there any apology? Or is there any condemnation for breach of human rights, eg. when Israel were caught using flechet tank rounds in civilian areas.

erm...if you think that the general arab population can't read the quran then you are believing the propaganda machine waaaaaay too much. Beccause even in third world muslim countries the first thing people are taught to read is the quran.

[Ben F.]

OW-

Whoa! Well said! Honestly, I surrender to your obviously superior knowledge on this subject. (Ben F. executes hasty bow and leaves the area)

P/S No, I am not a Holocaust Revisionist.

[Hongsermeier]

Khaw...have you been there? As I stated before I spent 1 year there. I know for a fact that most of them can not read. They are not taught to read the quran, just to know what it says. They are told by their "religious leaders" what the Quran says. I get my info from seeing it with my own two eyes. They are told what they are supposed to do from birth. It is ingrained in their every thought. I've seen military students who have never left their countries come to the US for training. They are simply overwhelmed by the difference between what they have been told and the truth.
As for human rights problems, their are plenty of problems on both sides. :cross_eye

[Old Warrior]

"Sure, the PLO spouts this propaganda but at the same time you got to know that not a day goes by that the Palestinian's lives are not controlled by Israel."

How do you start with an admission that every PLO member and sympathiser is committed to the destruction of Israel (a concept with enormous consequences involving millions of people) and then have the nerve to shift the discussion, in the same breath, to the unfortunate individuals caught up in the consequences of the acts of their representatives.

In 1948, virtually every "Palestinian" abandoned their home within the geographic border of Israel to join the invading armies who had set out to destroy the new chartered nation. When they failed, they became a conquered people who have had an arduous struggle trying to become part of the local society that they assumed would have been militarily decimated and rebuilt in their image. Israel does not owe its devowed enemies jobs, homes and the prospect of prosperity. Nevertheless, that is precisely what they offer in return for their enemies giving up the policies of hate and destruction. Would you let your child be trained in school to be a suicide bomber? Would you let your child out to throw Molatov Cocktails at tanks? Every day "Palestinians" engage in such activites and then look for cameras so they can decry the consequences of their own violence.

Are "Palestinian" lives worth any less than Israeli - I think not. Is the death of anyone regrettable - I think so. But, I can't mourn for the death of unfortunates who are the consequence of those who are dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the natural response to same. And, I surely don't worry about the inconvenience of those who want to work in Israel, while their friends and neighbors labor to destroy it.

[LNGUYEN]

Now, I jump in

Many Islam scholars said that the Koran taught only peaceful way of lives. On the other hands, you can see people walking on the streets, shouting "Death to ____". Some head of the Mosques were involved in some unrest situations. When the America was attacked (9/11), You saw most of Palestinians celebrating on the streets when innocent people were killed. Most of Muslim countries living in so restricted laws that you can not even say what you want. Look at Afghanistan, look at Iraq, look at Pakistan, Saudi, North African, etc. Those are the regions that always have war going on, like Algeria, if you support the government, the Muslim rebels will kill you, if you support the rebel, you are in trouble with the government. Do they really care "Brotherhood in Islam"? From that I would say, The Muslim community aren't better than any other groups, so don't think that they are victims of any other groups. When the Jewish wanted to create their own state with the estate they purchased (1948) Do you think the Palestinian welcomed them with open hands and warm hearts? How many Muslim think that Islam is the only true religion and their duty is to convert everybody to Islam with any mean?

All the religious are good, only people are bad. I hate people going out to kill in the name of religion. Screw them.

[Hongsermeier]

Lnguyen...mostly true. However, they are not trying to convert you. That is what the mormons due by going door to door or the Hari krishna's at the airport. The Muslim community just want to kill you if you don't agree. That is what is taught by their "religious leaders". :cross_eye

[KhawMengLee]

Lnguyen...mostly true. However, they are not trying to convert you. That is what the mormons due by going door to door or the Hari krishna's at the airport. The Muslim community just want to kill you if you don't agree. That is what is taught by their "religious leaders".

You know, If I said that all jews are big nosed money grubbing bankers, I would be blasted for being a bigot, racist etc.

To me, what you just said about the muslim community is just as bad. I am not a muslim and am a buddhist in a Islamic state and I feel what you have said is disgusting.

Yes, there are fundamentalists out there but the majority of muslims I have met I have a deep respect for so please watch your mouth.

[Hongsermeier]

Sorry I offended you. I should have been more clear. I meant the fundamentalist (terrorist) types. I do know Muslims who are educated and understand the real meaning of the quran. They are very nice people. :cross_eye

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
"The reason the Arabs hate us is our never ending, blind, unthinking support of Israel: a nation that oppresses Arabs and steals their land. I'd hate us to if I were them."


Imagine if we elected Joe Lieberman as our president.

Tim

[xvikingx]

When did Lieberman ever run for President? And what does his ethnic background have to do with that ignorant comment?

[samurai999]

He's in the running right now as one of the many democratic candidates waiting in the wings to oust Bush.. Which planet have YOU been living in.

www.joe2004.com/

Now about his ethnic background. So tell me how his Jewish background is not gonna affect the perception of america by middle eastern muslims. But, if any democrat is taking the president's office, I'd rather have him than Gephardt or Daschle.

Tim

[aru-ma]

too bad there isnt an african american buddhist that's running for the election, that way nobody has to worry about her background in deciding in issues like this :D

[xvikingx]

"When DID he run for president?"... Same thing as "WASN'T ELECTED". On my planet these things happen in the past tense.

[samurai999]

Just answering "when did Lieberman EVER run for president?". He is running right now. I keyed on the word "ever". In that case, I would think that this campaign counts as well. But I do digress if you were JUST talking about the past. :D

Tim

[John W]

I don't care if you are black, white, yellow or whatever your religious background is.... killing inncoent people is wrong.

How many times in history has some horrible killing happened in the name of something? And what makes it so different today than it did- when say.. King Richard went on his "holy crusade" and killed thousands? What really pisses me off is that for a good majority of us the news on TV is our "source" and after seeing this we then base our point of view on these TV articles. THAT is narrow minded and ignorant!!!

Can anyone here really say what is right or wrong with these conflicts?
:confused:

[samurai999]

Originally posted by John W
I don't care if you are black, white, yellow or whatever your religious background is.... killing inncoent people is wrong.


Killing innocent people is definitely wrong. No argument there. But, how many times have we seen innocent people in their misery being drafted by people like Osama. Then they turn them into killers in the "name of (insert name or idol here)" having them think that they are doing something to better themselves or to help with a righteous cause. That is just as wrong as killing innocent people.

Tim

[KhawMengLee]

and who drafted Osama?...gave him millions and stinger missles to fight the ruskies?

the same for Saddam...training, supplying him against the Iranians.

[Hongsermeier]

Khaw...like I said US foreign policy SUCKS!!!!! However I had nothing to do with making the policy. I probably dislike the government here as much as the rest of you do, and I have to work for them. Only way to change it is from the inside. Standing outside and thorwing rocks won't help. :cross_eye

[KhawMengLee]

well...I always felt throwing rotten eggs was more fun...stinky too...not all bioweapons kill...;)

[KENSHIN]

Lol….this is quite a funny thread, nice to see the true colours of some people here. Oh yeah, Old Warrior you might be an old guy, in which you supposedly hold characteristics of wisdom, but I can confirm to you that that is something you truly lack. I think you are truly an ignorant and a misinformed human being. Maybe you should read up more on history. What do ya think? Anyway, I am not going to even waste my time arguing about the subject of Israel and the US as from what I gather people like Old Warrior would have trouble accepting the truth even if it were staring them directly in the face.

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by LNGUYEN
Now, I jump in

Many Islam scholars said that the Koran taught only peaceful way of lives. On the other hands, you can see people walking on the streets, shouting "Death to ____". Some head of the Mosques were involved in some unrest situations. When the America was attacked (9/11), You saw most of Palestinians celebrating on the streets when innocent people were killed. Most of Muslim countries living in so restricted laws that you can not even say what you want. Look at Afghanistan, look at Iraq, look at Pakistan, Saudi, North African, etc. Those are the regions that always have war going on, like Algeria, if you support the government, the Muslim rebels will kill you, if you support the rebel, you are in trouble with the government. Do they really care "Brotherhood in Islam"? From that I would say, The Muslim community aren't better than any other groups, so don't think that they are victims of any other groups. When the Jewish wanted to create their own state with the estate they purchased (1948) Do you think the Palestinian welcomed them with open hands and warm hearts? How many Muslim think that Islam is the only true religion and their duty is to convert everybody to Islam with any mean?

All the religious are good, only people are bad. I hate people going out to kill in the name of religion. Screw them.

May I make one suggestion to you?…why thank you sir.

Well, my suggestion to you would be for you to go to school and get an education, I am assuming that you have never been to one before, but I truly believe that it may be of some benefit to you.

[LNGUYEN]

Hi Kenshin, if you don't know what to say or so retard to write your own opinion, then I forgive you my son. By the way, did your Mommy and Daddy know you chat on computer? Otherwise, attacking people without stating any reason is very stupid.
Oh, by the way do you finish to learn the alphabet yet?

[Old Warrior]

"I think you are truly an ignorant and a misinformed human being."

There's a saying that you can tell a lot about an individual by whom his enemies are. It will be a privilege to add you to the list. Although, truthfully, you don't bring much to the discourse and are about as annoying as gum stuck to my shoe.

[KENSHIN]

Lol…You two are not even worth the effort for me to intellectualise my opinion, especially from two that make extremely crude assertions.

[Hongsermeier]

Kenshin chan...please inform us who do not know, the truth you speak of. :cross_eye

[Kendoka]

Why is this on KWF?

You guys should be on some political chat board.

Richard

[Sir Percy]

Let Sir Percy, who know a thing or two about terrorism, add this quiz:

1. All Palestinians disarm, what is their fate?
2 All Israelis disarm, what is their fate?

It is written that one day the lion and the lamb shall lie down in peace together, but until that day it is better to be the lion than the lamb when you are surrounded by a political philosophy which is dedicated to your extinction.

[LNGUYEN]

The old wounded which the Israelis experienced was the Arabs countries had a suprised attacked on Israel. I didn't think they want it happen again without preparation. If the Israelis disarm, it is the end of their existence. I don't think the Arabs love them so much that they won't attack them again. On the other hands, about the Palestinian, you mean disarm but who? the government police or the terrorists?. The terrorist should be disarm, but in the mean time, they should create their own army which the Arabs will happily support them. The real problem right now is not about disarm but about lands. Both Israelis and Palestinians claim Jerusalem as their holy ground. The Israelis resided in Jerusalem for a long time historically, then they were exiled follow by the Palestinian staying their for the next two thousand years. Who has the right on that lands? Both Israelis and Palestinians claimed Jerusalem as Holy ground to their religions and they hated each other so much that they don't want to share the Jerusalem. It is funny to think that Islam and Judaism (Christian too) shared so much in theologies and ancestor (Abraham?) but they don't like each others. I always think that they are like brothers and sisters from the same Parents but don't like each others.

[samurai999]

Originally posted by Sir Percy
Let Sir Percy, who know a thing or two about terrorism, add this quiz:

1. All Palestinians disarm, what is their fate?
2 All Israelis disarm, what is their fate?


Ahh.. The answers to these questions depends on the trust that each side has for each other. Right now, I don't see much.

Tim

[Sir Percy]

Apparently the US and Australia have reached an agreement on the procedures (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/24/international/asia/24DETA.html) to be used to try Australian nationals who were captured during the US action in Afghanistan. Since the Australian gov't has signed on, any beef on this issue that our friends have should be with their elected representatives.

[ben]

I agree Percy. The Australian Government is totally without balls. Strangely, if Hicks is tried and found guilty, there is the possibility he can serve his sentence in Australia. Only problem is when he committed this alleged offence, there was no relevant law against it in Australia. Since criminal law cannot be made retrospective, he would in fact be serving time in an Australian prison for committing a USican crime.

I'm no lawyer but this strikes me as something of a legal travesty.

b

PS - Richard this is the "Flames" section. You can post anything you like.

[Simon]

And when I read that my blurry eyes saw "a legal transvestite" and I thought maybe you had found an interesting site ;)

sl, damn this brain and these eyes...

[aru-ma]

Can I just get something clarified?
when ben said "there was no relevant law against it in Australia. Since criminal law cannot be made retrospective, he would in fact be serving time in an Australian prison for committing a USican crime" does this mean that Hicks, an Austrlian citizen, is charged with a criminal act under US law but not considered a criminal act under Australian law? I never understand all these legal stuff:confused:

[John W]

I think what Ben is trying to say is that if this individual is found guilty of his crimes which have been governed by US law it would seem odd for him to serve out his sentence in an Austrailan prison. A country which does not even recognise his crimes.

[J. Schitt]

Originally posted by ben
AND the Australian government...

Clearly Ben, you don't realise that you are in the minority in your country. Otherwise YOUR choice of politics would be in government.

[Sir Percy]

Here's the take from Mark Styen on this issue:

"PLAYING BOTH SIDES: THE WESTERN JIHADI

Tony Blair must have loved his speech to Congress. It will be a long while before he gets a reception like that in his own Parliament. Of course, his position is much worse than Bush’s: the dissenters are in his own party not the opposition, and they’ve fused with a broader dissatisfaction among his poor subjects. I would say the heat Blair’s taking on Iraq is what the psychologists would call displacement: whether or not he’s a fraud and a failure re Saddam, it doesn’t begin to compare to the scale of his fraudulence and failure on education, health, transport, etc, which is what most Britons are really bugged about.

Nonetheless, I regret his decision to toss his snarling party a bone by intervening on behalf of the British subjects indefinitely detained at Don Rumsfeld’s pleasure at Guantanamo. I defended the arrangements at Gitmo last year, when most of Fleet Street was up in arms over malarial mosquitoes and other fictions. It was, in fact, the US Army which eliminated malaria from Cuba after the Spanish-American War. The detainees’ “cages” are cool, balmy, disease-free - and single-occupancy, so how good a night’s sleep you get doesn’t depend on whether Butch is in a romantic mood. A year and a half later, the brutal torture of the Rumsfeldian death camps is so severe that most of the inmates have put on weight. True, the guards have had to prevent a few suicide attempts from prisoners depressed at being unable to become suicide bombers, and one could make the case that stopping them is disrespectful of their cultural tradition. But London’s complaint seems to be no more or less than that, simply because they travel on passports issued in the name of Her Britannic Majesty, certain jihadi should be treated differently than others.

London is right. The British jihadi should certainly be treated differently: they should be subjected to much lengthier and more detailed interrogation. The mighty Pashtun warrior from Kandahar is an impressive figure, but in the grand scheme of things he’s unimportant. I doubt he knows much and I’m happy for him to be returned to his herd in the foothills of the Hindu Kush. But, with the British and French and Australian and Canadian al-Qa'eda volunteers, even the small fry are comparatively big fish. For a start, they’re a much larger threat to US interests: they know far more than the Afghan warlord’s idiot cousin about the weak points of the system – they know what papers you need to slip across the border from Montreal to Plattsburgh, who you need to hook up with in Virginia to get fake ID, etc. It’s the jihad networks in the west that give the movement its global reach. Shut them down and what’s left is just a bunch of losers frolicking in their own decrepit backyard.

The British government is not alone in failing to grasp this. A few weeks ago, the night before I went to Iraq, the missus called me at my hotel in Jordan and said, “Er, I was just wondering whether you should, um, notify the Canadian Embassy of where you’re planning to go. As you’re a Canadian citizen and so forth. I mean, just so I’d have someone to call if you went, ah, missing…” She must have rung up about 20 bucks in long-distance charges while I lay on the bed howling with laughter at that one.

A couple of weeks later, a Montreal photo journalist, Zahra Kazemi, was arrested by police in Iran [CORRECT] and wound up getting questioned to death. She had done what my wife recommended – contacted the Canadian Embassy in Tehran – and a lot of good it did her when she was arrested for photographing a student demo and beaten into a coma. By the time her son, frustrated by his government’s unruffleable equanimity in the matter, got the story out to the media, it was too late. On hearing of her death, the Canadian Foreign Minister expressed his “sadness” and “regret”.

Would it have killed him to express a little anger and disgust? After all, the mullahs will be lucky to be in business by year’s end: this is a terminal regime even Canadians should have figured isn’t worth kissing up to. But what he mainly regretted was that one of his compatriots should have had the poor taste to get tortured and beaten onto the front pages. With a straight face, he passed on to reporters the official Iranian line that it could be just an “accident”. According to Reuters, the unfortunate accident has “marred previously harmonious relations between Iran and Canada”.

Looked at from Washington’s point of view, that may be the real problem: its closest neighbour, whose citizens enjoy greater and easier access to the US than those of any other country, has “harmonious relations” with the axis of evil’s prototype Islamist terrorism-exporting theocracy.

Don’t blame the poor boob who serves as Canada’s Foreign Minister. His staff may have done nothing for that murdered photographer, but they’ve been tireless in their efforts on behalf of Omar Khadr, a Canadian teenager captured in Afghanistan after a battle in which a US soldier was killed. Khadr’s father was arrested in Pakistan in 1995 for his part in the bombing of the Egyptian Embassy in Islamabad, but released after the personal intervention of the Canadian Prime Minister.

That’s the story in a nutshell: for whatever complex psychological reasons, western governments go to bat for the likes of Omar Khadr but not for Zahra Kazemi. Unlike Ms Kazemi, these boys know how to work the system. Zac Moussaoui, the so-called “20th hijacker” is a French national who became an Islamic radical while living on welfare in London. Ahmed Ressam, arrested at the US border en route to blow up Los Angeles International Airport, trained for his mission while living on welfare in Montreal. Metin Kaplan ran a multi-million dollar radical Islamist sect while living on welfare in Cologne. It’s the point at which eastern fundamentalism meets western benefit cheques that transforms the scale of the problem.

Tony Blair’s right. Too many people are being held at Guantanamo. Free the Afghans. But keep the Brits.
The Irish Times, July 19th 2003"

[Kendoka]

I think what Ben is trying to say is that if this individual is found guilty of his crimes which have been governed by US law it would seem odd for him to serve out his sentence in an Austrailan prison. A country which does not even recognise his crimes.

It's not that we won't "recognise" his crimes, if proven. It's just that we didn't have legislation to cover Australians fighting for the other side and outside of Australia at the time he was captured.

There are precedents for Australians who have been convicted in overseas juristrictions, to be returned to Australia to server the remainder of the sentence.

Richard

[doubissu]

Forget about learning Kendo - spend some time on history. Better yet, join Hamas a or get a job with Al Jazeera - they can always use another moron.

Hahaaaa, very funny. So OW I guess you get your news from Fox and ClearChannel radio ? Great education there...

Eddy

[Winter_Wolf]

Hello,
Way to go! this flame war had died so long ago it's ridiculous that it still exists! Why in God's name did you feel the need to bring it up!?! Maybe you should look at the date on the garbage before you pull it out!
Oh no! I just fed a troll! I shall go do 1000 suburi to teach myself control, anyway, guys try not to dig up this crap, no one care anymore (besides me, but I thought the trolls in LOTR were cool!)
Thanks,
W.W.

[cvgkendo1]

Who cares? I don't give a Sh** what anyone thinks about the good ol USA. We will do what we need to do and don't give me this crap that Austrailia or anyone else is any different. Unless your the Dalai Lama or Mother Theresa chances are in some way you and your country to is self serving. You Aussies just like in America went around slaughtering the local native people to expand your world. So get off it. Oh by the way the USA has never colonized countries. The places where we do maintain territory were usually the spoils of war. in the case of Europe... England, gee how many people have died in India, Burma, Africa purely in the name of the empire? France, hmm Vietnam French Indo China, Algeria? Oh by the way England built Israel not the USA. Oh I think the Brits had a little something to do with the creation of Kuwait didn't they? One of Saddam's claims after invading Kuwait was that it was Iraqi territory illegally taken away by outsiders. Spain anyone?. Shall I go on? I am not trying to pick on anyone just making a point. Before you crtisize you'd better look in the mirror. Well now how about Germany???????

Rant mode off

[mingshi]

Oh by the way the USA has never colonized countries.
Oh god, when is the last time these trolls read the newspaper? 800 BC?

[m_french]

Oh by the way the USA has never colonized countries. The places where we do maintain territory were usually the spoils of war.
Rant mode off

And hawaii is merely a state due to its location within our natural frontiers?California was just sitting there empty waiting for someone to move in? As far as why australians find it hard to love america, it is absurd for anyone to identify a people (or a geographic region in this case, even though i'm sure that was not the intent of the author) with it's government. People do not elect government officials, governments do.....even here, even arnold.

[Fantasia]

And hawaii is merely a state due to its location within our natural frontiers?California was just sitting there empty waiting for someone to move in? As far as why australians find it hard to love america, it is absurd for anyone to identify a people (or a geographic region in this case, even though i'm sure that was not the intent of the author) with it's government. People do not elect government officials, governments do.....even here, even arnold.

There isn't a country left in the world that's being run by it's original, indigenous first-human-beings-to-set-foot-on-this-land people, so your argument about California is completely specious from any standpoint.

Hawaii is a state because of its strategic importance. Any Pacific Rim country with any power would have killed to claim it. Becoming a state of the most powerful pacific rim country was the one way they could protect themselves from the ravages of much more brutally imperialistic nations such as Japan.

[m_french]

There isn't a country left in the world that's being run by it's original, indigenous first-human-beings-to-set-foot-on-this-land people, so your argument about California is completely specious from any standpoint.


Thank you for proving my point while trying to refute it.....specious...nice word. :beard:

[Hiryu]

-----"old Warrior" quote-------------------------------------
The above is the most historically ignorant and blatant anti-semetic garbage that I have read in a while. Forget about learning Kendo - spend some time on history. Better yet, join Hamas a or get a job with Al Jazeera - they can always use another moron.[/QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Old Warrior, It seems your the ignorant Moron here. Just Because someone criticizes Israel, they are immediatly with Hamas or Al Jazeera? Cant the Isalis take criticism? Was the guy who pointed out flaws with American Policy called a Nazi, an Al Queida, or Terrorist? Does one have to join one faction to criticize another? Have you ever heard of Loyal Opposition? Or is your "Old Warrior" brain just toooo feeble to comprehend this?


It seems that it is ok to criticize the U.S. without criticizing Americans, but it is not possible to Criticize Israli Policy without being Anti Semetic. What a load of Crap! There is enough blame to throw around over there for all sides including the U.S.
The Isralis occupy Controlled territory, Destroy Civilian homes, and build settlements in Controlled territory, all of which are no-no's in the Geneva Convention. Am I saying that the Palestenians are not guilty of doing bad things also? No! But watching what the Isralis have been doing with MY Tax money disgusts me!
The Isralis are the ones in controll over there, they are the ones keeping the Palestenians in Concentration camps, and I therefore hold them to a higher standard and expect them to make a bigger effort at making peace. What I see the current Israli Government doing is disgusting. Seeing The Isralis bulldoze houses with German shepards held by armed soldiers while dragging civilians out of their homes gave me flash backs to movies of Chrystal Nacht, the only thing missing was the jack boots and the Nazi armbands. Was it a different situation? Yes!, but the outcome is the SAME!!!

"Old Warrior" my ass. old fool more likely.

[tsuba_man]

who cares about what happens to the fool that went off and ended up on the losing side as long as he serves his time for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Back to 9/11, i can't argue with the US' reaction but still, you'd think with them trying to solve dozens of other wars they'd know a bit about trying resolving conflict. They like to say someone has to stand down first and maybe they should listen to themselves this time, i mean americans only listen to themselves anyway :) . I guess if they sat down and did nuthin they'd get shat on by everyone and bush'd get voted out for bein a wuss. But what would i know, my kendo's still bad :cool2:

[Budoka 83]

Budo should unite us, for buddah loves us all!

[Mokoto Shishio]

War, the cause of all the death we see recently. Yes terrorism is a spawn of war as well so the two are related. The biggest cause for war right now, Territory and wow this ones a surprise, religion. If you people are religios i'm sorry its a fact. During the course of human kinds evolution into forming societies, people were brought up believing in certain ideology. Many people have differn't beliefs, and they collide causing violence. Next to countries themselves religions are the number one buisness in the world. YES BUISNESS.
They can sway political power, personal power and of course emotional power from anyone who follows that certain religion. No but they help others and try to spread the right word around how could they be so powerfull? Have you everheard of propaganda its to put the wrong idea or the opposite idea into peopes heads. Sure there are good aspects in all religions, but the biggest aspect of a religion is control. Obiding by your religion is a way of control is it not. look at vatican city do you know its net worth, more than some countries ill tell you that. Why do all religions teach about faith. You have to have faith in your religion you just know its right. Bull crap. Every religios belief that has had a chance to go up against scientific evaluation has failed. Science has proved many religions wrong time and time again and what do the heads of those religions say my favorite is from the pope " God will reveal in time his true plan, we cannot question what god has allowed us to question. What! I know the mans old but this makes no sense. Im sick of typing so come on ! think about it.

[LNGUYEN]

Religious is very sensitive issue. Until the question where is the World come from, the Big Bang, then where was giant particle that set up the Big Bang come from be answer, I think no science or any Human can take up the Religions

[Mokoto Shishio]

Religious is very sensitive issue. Until the question where is the World come from, the Big Bang, then where was giant particle that set up the Big Bang come from be answer, I think no science or any Human can take up the Religions

all im saying is if we stop fighting over religion which humans have been doing since WE first created religion, we might be able to consentrate our efforts to finding out why when how the universe is created. We do now that the universe is constantly expanding at a rate faster than we can measure. So if it has an end it is no where in sight for us at least. If all are united in a common goal things will be accomplished. As for religion we are all seperated so nothing good comes of it. Imagine a world that all agreed on the advancment of the human race. Some religions actually go against this which puts our survival in the hands of greed. Meaning people who only want somthing as they see it.

[Mokoto Shishio]

In addition religion seperates us all when we all should be united. Muslims are no differnt than jews as are catholic protostant ect. They are all human which should unite them but they are swayed by differnt beliefs, which in turn seperates them. Do you understand this?

[KhawMengLee]

In addition religion seperates us all when we all should be united. Muslims are no differnt than jews as are catholic protostant ect. They are all human which should unite them but they are swayed by differnt beliefs, which in turn seperates them. Do you understand this?

Religion does unite...but politics use it as a conveniant factor and tool. Look at the crusades...it was never about religion. The Pope wanted to bring the Greek Orthodox Church into its fold so when Alexius in Constantinople sent a petition to the pope to send some mercs to protect his lands from a few marauding turks, the pope used it as an excuse to gain power. The greek emperor expected a few hundred mercs and got a rabble of nearly 100 thousand killers on his doorstep.

Religion is an effective tool of politics...

[LNGUYEN]

Religions don't separate us. All the religions teach living in harmony, peaceful, loving each other, forgiven. Religions don't teach hartred. Check out the philosophy of Hebrew, Christian, Muslim, Bhudist. None of them teach us hating each others. People, we human translate the philosophy, religion wrong way for our own purpose to gain more benefits for our own. We are selfish, yes we are. So it is not religions, it is human that screw up. Untill we get rid of all selfishness, we will never united. By the way don't forget about "My God is bigger than your God" from the point of view of stupid, uneducated people.

[Mokoto Shishio]

Religions don't separate us. All the religions teach living in harmony, peaceful, loving each other, forgiven. Religions don't teach hartred. Check out the philosophy of Hebrew, Christian, Muslim, Bhudist. None of them teach us hating each others. People, we human translate the philosophy, religion wrong way for our own purpose to gain more benefits for our own. We are selfish, yes we are. So it is not religions, it is human that screw up. Untill we get rid of all selfishness, we will never united. By the way don't forget about "My God is bigger than your God" from the point of view of stupid, uneducated people.
I know that the fundamentals of religion are outstanding even if you dont believe in a god. They all fundamentaly teach positively. But as the man said politics plays a big role in religion now a days even bigger than it did in the pass. For instance what bigger effect could on say, a catholic president have on catholics as him having the pope come and visit the whitehouse and speak out that the president is a great man, and strong in his religion. I maybe a one sided man but everything today no matter how good it might seem is about greed in the end. Missionaries believing they are doing good for their religion, are simply pawns of the worldly so called religios leaders. They are in turn getting that particular religion more followers and making it a more powerful force Yes a force, a religions beliefs can in fact sway say sway a voters veiw on let say gay marrige simply because being gay is not thier way of life. I have tried many religions in my quest for enlightenment and all have certain problems with how people live. It boils down to basically brainwashing you into thinking what they think is right is, and what they think is wrong is. To end my statement the only person you should have faith in is yourself and that you could help many out of just wanting to not because its right or because you have to to get in heaven. I have enjoyed your responses, and will continue to talk of this as long as all of you will respond back.

[LNGUYEN]

Religions have been used by polictics but at the same time, many great people were pronouned and remembered for their services in the name of their Gods and humanity. Look at Dalai Lama, Mother Theresa and here nuns, Dr. Lutherking Jr. and The Pope right now. Those people don't look at other to judge that religion but rather they just do it for the Love. If you think Mother Theresa helped the poor and sicks in India just to win their hearts and to gain more forces for Catholics, I would disagree with you. People have free wills to do whatever they want even using the other to gain benefits for themselves. The more freedom we have, the more disrespect we treat each others. I have to tell you that I never seen selfish behaviors as much as today, on the trains, on the streets, in the shops, at the offices, between friends, families, etc... we could do many stupid things and blame some one elses for our stupidities without feeling guilty. In the Worlds like this, the only thing to keep people limit their uncivilizes and still living in sane is religion.

[Mokoto Shishio]

Religions have been used by polictics but at the same time, many great people were pronouned and remembered for their services in the name of their Gods and humanity. Look at Dalai Lama, Mother Theresa and here nuns, Dr. Lutherking Jr. and The Pope right now. Those people don't look at other to judge that religion but rather they just do it for the Love. If you think Mother Theresa helped the poor and sicks in India just to win their hearts and to gain more forces for Catholics, I would disagree with you. People have free wills to do whatever they want even using the other to gain benefits for themselves. The more freedom we have, the more disrespect we treat each others. I have to tell you that I never seen selfish behaviors as much as today, on the trains, on the streets, in the shops, at the offices, between friends, families, etc... we could do many stupid things and blame some one elses for our stupidities without feeling guilty. In the Worlds like this, the only thing to keep people limit their uncivilizes and still living in sane is religion.
Of course i dont think mother teresa and such Are just pawns there are people of absolut faith that just do things that help others no selfishness. That is what i was talking about eairlier. Though i dount think these people should be used as much as they are in the media Because of the profound effect of religion. i.e. Say a young child grows up in the U.S.A a place of free religion. He is pegged with images of religious figures doing good. Not bad but not god. He may be influenced to join a religion just to do good. Still not bad but what i think is most people know what is right from wrong they should grow to want to do good regardless of wheather any one inspired them. People should be born with the extream idea of wanting to foward the human race i thingk people like mother teresa are like this. She saw people suffering and wanted to help because human suffering is not somthing a Species like us with our potencial would ever see needed. Like i was saying before Science has created so many things to help humanity and they are proven. Wouldnt one want to excell in this for thier on spieces to insure survival for future generations. Instead of waisting time praying " basically wishing " that a person might be healed, go out and figure out why thier sick correct this problem instead of hopeing some divine power, that is not proven will cure them.

[gsx1100s]

As an Australian I can simply say , most Americans I have met I like. I however dislike the current government in America.
If anyone says "all Yanks...blah blah blah" have they met everyone in America???
For God sake stop the blanket name calling and get specific. Yes I reckon George Bush is an idiot. yes I also believe Australias P.M. is a moron as well.
So tell me something I don't know!! :wink:
So thats my say :)

cheers Michael

[baka gaijin]

..plenty of Americans are in prison all over the world, many for crimes that are quite heinous.

On the other hand America(the government -not- the people) has imprisoned aboute five times as many on vague grounds. WHat ever happend to that bunch they bundled up on Guantanamo base? No trial, no loyers, no right, no grounds. Ok, they're probably no angels but they still should have the opportunity of getting a trial and being handed over to their homelands.