Professional vs amateur kendoka

[ben]

In practical terms, which is superior? In philosophical terms which approach is preferable? This is leading on from some OT discussion on the WKC thread. I think there are many layers to this. Interested to hear people's thoughts.

I know lots of people would like a third option, but you don't get one! Take a side and discuss it.

b

[JSchmidt]

Who's saying that professionals don't love doing kendo?
Sorry, poll is heavily biased and thereby useless.

[cesarekim]

Love what you do and do what you love?

I'll put my old and battered consulting hat on and say it depends...

I'll put my vote on amateur as defined above but purely because it fits my situation as I don't do kendo to go to shiai. If we are talking kendo overall this is definitely the answer. If we are talking about competitive kendo (competing and judging) not so sure that an amateur can do the same thing as a pro. Still, shiai and shimpan at shiai IS an important part of kendo as is jigeiko....

Sempai HELP!!!!

[ahmed61086]

Hehehe, no third option? Then I am not going to vote! HAHHAA(evil laugh :evil: . J/K

Any way, what I was speaking about in the other thread was mostly about what was said about some of the competitors in the WKC, when one person called the non-japanes and non-korean players amateurs. I though this was wrong and disrespectful to the people competing.

What people said to me was that a professional is a person who gets paid to do something, while and amateur is someone who just does for the love of it. And I totally agree, this is one of the technical meanings. But as we all know, when speaking, we dont allways use just one specific meaning or the technical meaning.

To refer to someone as an amateur means more than not being paid. It also means a lack of skill and experience. This is why I disagreed and still disagree with what some people are saying. I will concede to the fact, that technically, the non-japanese/korean players, are not professionals, since they do not get paid, but I feel it is is not right to call them amateurs. If you we want to get into the etomology of the words and the technical meanings...then yes you can call them that, but it still doesn't get rid of the fact that the word amateur has more than one meaning, and one of the meanings is: lack of skill and or experience. I doubt any of the players would like to be called unskillful, even if they themselves believe they are. They proved that they are just as skillful as the Japanese and Korean players, because as we have seen, US got 2nd place, and beat the Japanese team. And all the other teams did very well. I congratulate them all. If I cant call them professional, then I guess I need another word....I just dont know what it is yet. :ermm:

Just my thoughts.

[ahmed61086]

Who's saying that professionals don't love doing kendo?


Ahhhh, good point.

[cesarekim]

To refer to someone as an amateur means more than not being paid. It also means a lack of skill and experience. This is why I disagreed and still disagree with what some people are saying. I will concede to the fact, that technically, the non-japanese/korean players, are not professionals, since they do not get paid, but I feel it is is not right to call them amateurs. If you we want to get into the etomology of the words and the technical meanings...then yes you can call them that, but it still doesn't get rid of the fact that the word amateur has more than one meaning, and one of the meanings is: lack of skill and or experience. I doubt any of the players would like to be called unskillful, even if they themselves believe they are. They proved that they are just as skillful as the Japanese and Korean players, because as we have seen, US got 2nd place, and beat the Japanese team. And all the other teams did very well. I congratulate them all. If I cant call them professional, then I guess I need another word....I just dont know what it is yet. :ermm:

Just my thoughts.

In Korea, there is the professional Association, the school Associations and a SOCIAL MEMBERS Association. I think this is not a really elegant translation but it does communicate the Korean meaning. Sahwe-in means somebody who is active in society and is not a full time kendo player. This is probably what we are looking for in this context. At the last competition I was at, there were age group divisions. I was in the 30's age group and got matched up with a 6 dan... He was good and about 39. He said he was challenging 7 dan the next year and was an assistant instructor at his dojo. Kind of hard to think of this guy as an amateur....

[Neil Gendzwill]

To refer to someone as an amateur means more than not being paid. It also means a lack of skill and experience.That's implied, because if you are not paid you are not full-time. I don't think it can be denied that a professional Japanese kendoka typically has more experience than an amateur. Those guys are practicing 2-3 times/day, we're all practicing 2-3 times/week.

[Paburo]

i think it boils down to:

-those who get paid and sponsored to be on the national team (call them pros, paid members, or whatever)

-those who have alternative jobs to pay bills, pay dojo fees and sometimes even have to pay travel expenses to be on the national team (call them amateurs, non-paid, or whatever)

i think it would be great to be paid for what you love to do. but... a great BUT.... (as we say in spanish) that's a double sided/bladed razor indeed. it's comfortable to be paid to do kendo and worry not about how to pay the bills, but i guess the responsability you assume is a lot different, the pressure might end up being too much i think.

as amateurs are expected to win, because they represent the best of the country. they have to win by conviction and people's hope. nothing else. they can quit anytime, they'll be replaced with someone else.

but pros somehow are obliged to win by contract. as in 'we have feed you for a long time and paid your bills so you better give us some good damn results'. in a way, it's still a job. aside from the great love you might put into kendo (and i'm sure most if not all korean/japanese out there do), you're still being sponsored long time for representing the country. you have been paid years and years to make it there and win....

[AlexM]

What about people who have seriously sacrificed professional success in life in order to compete at a high level? Are they amateurs or professionals?

A Westerner who has chosen to be in dead-end jobs all his life in order to do almost nothing but kendo is an amateur or a professional?

[johnkichu]

i think it would be great to be paid for what you love to do. but... a great BUT.... (as we say in spanish) that's a double sided/bladed razor indeed. it's comfortable to be paid to do kendo and worry not about how to pay the bills, but i guess the responsability you assume is a lot different, the pressure might end up being too much i think.

You bring up a good point. My senior sensei has done nothing but kumdo all his life (Korean national team, coached various teams, now a dojang owner/operator), ever since he was in elementary school. He loves kumdo and is very good. However, every now and then, in private moments, he'll let it slip and say things like "I've done nothing but kumdo my whole life - I wish I tried other things," with a deep sigh. Guys like him basically had no childhood, no teen age years, no friends who do not do kumdo - in short, they had no life outside of kumdo.

[jmarsten]

What about people who have seriously sacrificed professional success in life in order to compete at a high level? Are they amateurs or professionals?

A Westerner who has chosen to be in dead-end jobs all his life in order to do almost nothing but kendo is an amateur or a professional?

Alex I wish you wouldn't talk about me like this. Anyone who has seen my kendo knows I am an amateur.

[ben]

Who's saying that professionals don't love doing kendo?
Sorry, poll is heavily biased and thereby useless.

I never said professionals don't love kendo. And I never said amateurs can't be full-time. I put those descriptors there as examples of the a 'strength' of each approach. They are not meant as exclusive.

Where's that famous sense of humour Jakob... :)

b

[ben]

i think it boils down to:

-those who get paid and sponsored to be on the national team (call them pros, paid members, or whatever)

-those who have alternative jobs to pay bills, pay dojo fees and sometimes even have to pay travel expenses to be on the national team (call them amateurs, non-paid, or whatever)

Most national team members receive some level of sponsorship. For example the Australian Team receive a team warm-up jacket, a team blazer, a new team dogi, and subsidy for their travel expenses.

This is still a long way from being paid to do kendo. They still have to work jobs. They still have to pay travel expenses to squad training and the event itself.

So a pro I would say is not someone with a little sponsorship, but someone with enough sponsorship or income from scholarships, endorsements, bursaries, whatever, that mean they do not have to find other ways of making a living.

I have often been paid to teach kendo, which makes me a professional kendoka in the literal sense of the word. But I don't think that functionally I am professional, because I still need to work to support myself and my family.

b

[Aden]

Often those professionals do more than one thing - a Tokyo police instructor has police jo / riot control and unarmed combat to teach as well as kendo...... (and the odd bit of desk work :) ).

But on the survey question, surely a professional that loves what he does is the best - since he has the extra time to work on the technical side and also the enthusiasm.

The one short stint I had training with the police, the sensei was also a out of hours kenjutsu man to round out his life and he was in the dojo at dawn every morning in case anyone wanted to come by for a bash.

[WRT the WKC a lot of the non Japan/Korea competitors would surely be semi pro rather than amatur league]

[waiwilly]

i vote n i see that most people like to be amateur!
call me amateur but i'll fight like a pro:P

[AlexM]

Alex I wish you wouldn't talk about me like this. Anyone who has seen my kendo knows I am an amateur.

Of course I wasn't referring to you Oh Great and Iconic Marsten-sensei-master-shihan-senpo-jiho-chuken-fukusho-taisho... I was referring to people who sacrificed their lives and in order to get BETTER at kendo, not simply to avoid the nagging wife and boss on weekends: "Honey, I can't mow the lawn... I have to go to Japan for some seminar thing in Tokyo. I'll bring you back another mug from the airport gift shop, ok? See ya in a month."

Of course, some of us have no lives to sacrifice on the alter of kendo and basically commute from home to work to kendo and back home again. Do you know when is the last time I spoke to someone outside of work or kendo? And I'm still lousy.

On the other hand some people have such excellent jobs (or are stinking rich) and are so good at what they do that they have the option to have flexible lives to accomodate kendo. Good for them, I wish I were so gifted. Are these people still amateurs or pros if they are able to train like them? Does someone who wins the lottery and devotes himself to kendo full-time count as an amateur? I wouldn't think so.

The really impressive amateurs are those that are amazing professionals AND still manage to do high level kendo. I hate these people. Everything they touch turns to gold kind of jerks. They make other people, and me in particular, look bad. My sensei is one of them. A pox on them all.

[Masahiro]

first, I agree that the questions were flawed and potentially fundamentally biased. But I am not picking on ya ben, just suggesting maybe there was a better way to phrase the choices. Or, did you mean to phrase it that way.

to answer your questions, (within the context of your wording)
in the practical sense, being a pro (having the luxury for doing something full time) is superior. However, in philosophical approach, i believe it is also better to be a "pro", i mean I am being "idealistic" here, but the world would be a lot of happier, (meaning people would be less stressed and a lot less grumpier) if he/she is able to do what one loves for a living.
Although, seeing the fact sheet from the past WKC, it is safe to say that the technical skill diference between U.S.A (and let's just call the U.S.A team the amateur...) versus Japan (the "pro", where most of them are full time kendo players) is quite small. in the end, just because you are "considered" an amateur at something you can't "train" or do things like the pros? (as is often the case in amateur body building. .. pro body builders often are first amateur bodybuilders first then win competitions to gain sponsors) And just because you are a pro doesn't mean you are really into it. My answer.. ..it depends on the heart and attutide of the person.

p.s not to bash on U.S. cops, but.. gosh, some of them are really amateurs!!! (or should be at least):mad:

[ReKru]

Who's saying that professionals don't love doing kendo?

As someone who 'sold out' one of his dearest hobbies (computer shtuff .. which turns more and more into a global competition as well :( ) to make a living, I must say that doing even your dearest stuff professionally means you have to sacrifice some of the love for it.

Maybe it's a bold assumption and quite far fetched, but for me turning any other hobby that I 'love' and do 'amateurishly' -like Kendo and Music (playing Violin and singing, which I pretty much gave up in favor of Kendo)- into a job would require a similar 'sacrifice'.
And maybe it's just me that feels that giving up some of the 'pure love' for an activity in order to get 'better' at it is a sacrifice.

Maybe the world would be a better place if we needn't to anything 'for a living' , but could do everything out of idealism. :)
hmm..

[ben]

first, I agree that the questions were flawed and potentially fundamentally biased. But I am not picking on ya ben, just suggesting maybe there was a better way to phrase the choices. Or, did you mean to phrase it that way.

I'm not quite sure what you see as bias in the two options. I said "amateurs love what they do" because that is the meaning of amateur, as one poster said, it comes from the Latin "to love". I wasn't secretly implying that it was superior. The fact that a pro can dedicate themselves to an activity full-time without distraction could also be seen as an unbeatable proposition. So the statements are equally weighted. And if they weren't to you, you don't have to obey the bias you perceive there. I trust everyone here is intelligent enough to get what I mean, even if I am too inept to say it clearly.

Damn. Now I've lost my sense of humour too.

b

[ReKru]

An afterthought:

I'm sure the professionalization of any sports has done a lot for the spectators, who get mind boggling performances and new world records on almost any event nowadays. But if I look at what's going on in the whole scenes (and I don't even dig too deep into the matter), I wonder if it has really done a lot for the sportsmen.

Doping scandals, bribery, much more 'technical' rules to make the event more interesting to watch, sportsmen (and -women) risking their long-term health and even their life (we just had a very evil boxing match over here, where one of the boxers had a broken -almost shattered into pieces- jaw but kept boxing, bleeding all over the ring - and even won) just to be 'competitive', is really pushing beyond what I consider a 'good' activity.

[JSchmidt]

I never said professionals don't love kendo. And I never said amateurs can't be full-time. I put those descriptors there as examples of the a 'strength' of each approach. They are not meant as exclusive.
b

But, the way the poll is set up, you force people to be exclusive in their choice.

[kartoffelngeist]

It's just a poll on a forum. It really won't make a huge difference to anything. No need to get all fired up about it...

[KhawMengLee]

It's just a poll on a forum. It really won't make a huge difference to anything. No need to get all fired up about it...

Yes there is! (http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1161392907739.jpg)

[Hisham]

An afterthought:

I'm sure the professionalization of any sports has done a lot for the spectators, who get mind boggling performances and new world records on almost any event nowadays. But if I look at what's going on in the whole scenes (and I don't even dig too deep into the matter), I wonder if it has really done a lot for the sportsmen.

Doping scandals, bribery, much more 'technical' rules to make the event more interesting to watch, sportsmen (and -women) risking their long-term health and even their life (we just had a very evil boxing match over here, where one of the boxers had a broken -almost shattered into pieces- jaw but kept boxing, bleeding all over the ring - and even won) just to be 'competitive', is really pushing beyond what I consider a 'good' activity.

I totally agree. And in this context, i'd rather be an amateur sportsman, i got a question, were there any of those type of scandals in Japan or Korea regarding kendo competitions?

[kartoffelngeist]

Yes there is! (http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1161392907739.jpg)

There's no arguing with serious cat.

[jmarsten]

I was referring to people who sacrificed their lives and in order to get BETTER at kendo, not simply to avoid the nagging wife and boss on weekends: "Honey, I can't mow the lawn... I have to go to Japan for some seminar thing in Tokyo. I'll bring you back another mug from the airport gift shop, ok? See ya in a month."

Of course, some of us have no lives to sacrifice on the alter of kendo and basically commute from home to work to kendo and back home again. Do you know when is the last time I spoke to someone outside of work or kendo? And I'm still lousy.


Must have met my wife, since I retired I have had to catch up on over 30 years of deferred maintenance on my home. As Tom Bolling says " I used to have lots of friends before I started kendo"
Now I barely know anyone outside of kendo and I go 4-5 days a week.

Alex are you going to make the trip out to Steveston this year? If so I'll treat you to a beer.

[Charlie]

I voted amateurs because I love amateur athletics. But I think the fact that we have different national contexts for what qualifies an amateur and a pro affects the situation greatly. What is a pro in Japan is not in Korea is not in North America, etc.

Something I've always wondered about Japanese police kenshi - they have to do police work in addition to their kendo, don't they? I remember the Miyazaki brothers had to cancel an appearance at a seminar one year because there was an international event and they needed all cops on hand for security. Doesn't that suggest that police kenshi also have to be full-time policefolk? And don't school kendo teachers also teach in the school system?

[AlexM]

Must have met my wife (...)

Haven't met your wife.... I work for the NSA.




Alex are you going to make the trip out to Steveston this year? If so I'll treat you to a beer.

I'm toying with the idea because its the 75th anniversary and because I have a spare vacation day available to me this year... However, professional obligations being what they are, taking time off or one weekend to fly for 12 hours to and from Vancouver is kind of tiring.

I'll think about it but thanks for the offer.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'll buy you a beer, too, Alex.

[Old Warrior]

Something I've always wondered about Japanese police kenshi - they have to do police work in addition to their kendo, don't they? I remember the Miyazaki brothers had to cancel an appearance at a seminar one year because there was an international event and they needed all cops on hand for security. Doesn't that suggest that police kenshi also have to be full-time policefolk? And don't school kendo teachers also teach in the school system?

Yes, but isn't it helpful to have a dojo in your precinct/school and to work in a culture that values your athletic participation highly. I have known a number of US fencers who have been on our Olympic Teams and they would pass unknown in a crowd, had to give up vacations and sick days to compete and received virtually no reimbursement for the travel and training expenses it took to get to their slot. Many gave up their youth and sacrificed career and family to do something that most Americans could care less about. When these people competed: they arrived the day before, worried about their accomodations and baggage, never ate properly or acclimated to the climate/elevation and faced many other challenges.

I imagine that being a Japanese Policeman vying for the National Kendo Title is a lot easier than striving for the same goal elsewhere.

[Ignatz]

. . . I have had to catch up on over 30 years of deferred maintenance on my home. . .
Argggh, my hot water heater just went down the tubes and cost me $300 for a new one. If it wasn't leaking all over the place I would have just taken cold showers but I had to spend kendo money to replace it.

[Kitsune]

I think most of you see amateur as it was a terrible word.. In the WKC people said that except Japan and Korea all of the countries were amateur, and that's true, it's not an insult, I can tell for the region I live non of the teams are pros, most of them do it because the love kendo, goverments are not paying to this people to go and win medals, they just go because they love it, the can and they want to every one see that no matter what they can go, they can win they can participate. That's amateur real sense.

Of couse I would love to goverments pay us or sponsor us to go to a World Cup and stuff, but if they don't we don't transform it in an obstacle... If you ask me, I'm proud of being an amateur even when money it's hard to get, even if I don't have my own bogu, but I love kendo and I'll do what ever I can to go and get thru it.

[AlexM]

Two dirty old men are trying to get me drunk, you're all witnesses.

I'll look at plane ticket prices and my own schedule... absolutely no promises, 12 hours of flying for a 1st round elimination is not exactely my idea of a fun weekend.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You can make it to the second round, li'l camper, I know you can. Besides, all the big guns have moved up into my division now...

[Frame]

...Do you know when is the last time I spoke to someone outside of work or kendo?...

please don't bring up this topic (we could make it it's own thread) I talk about it at the pub after practice, it's too depressing :(

[JByrd]

Many people have observed that the terms professional and amateur are rather loaded with connotation. I think both approaches have positive elements we can use.

One thing that one expects from a professional is the ability to get the job done right in circumstances that are less than ideal. When the job is tough, you call a professional. On any given night there are dozens of factors, both internal and external, that can make practice extra hard for us, and we have to function at the highest possible level regardless.

A professional is also assumed to have a degree of independence. A pro knows when the job is done right, and takes on the full responsibility to analyze the situation, decide on an appropriate course of action, apply the solution correctly, and then objectively assess the result.

Another thing that goes along with professionalism is professional development. Attending seminars, workshops, and things of that sort are an ongoing commitment. We have to talk to others who practice our craft at various levels to compare notes on what is working, and what isn't.

Amateurs, on the other hand, can afford to be choosy about how they practice their craft. In a sense we are all amateurs in that we will never have to rely on our Kendo skills in real combat, or to earn our livelihood. That frees us to pursue the highest ideal, without undue worry about the result, and whether we'll be able to eat (or breathe) tomorrow. A pro does not have that luxury, and may have to swallow his or her pride and cut corners to achieve a result.

[AlexM]

please don't bring up this topic (we could make it it's own thread) I talk about it at the pub after practice, it's too depressing :(

If you go to a pub after kendo then it doesn't count. Some of us simply go home and sleep.

Don't try to play the "who's got a more pathetic life" game with me. I will win every time.

[AlexM]

You can make it to the second round, li'l camper, I know you can. Besides, all the big guns have moved up into my division now...

Did you just call me li'l camper???

You're just asking to be called Granpa Gendzwill.

I'd like to point out that Itokazu from Team USA was still 3rd the last time I checked...

[Charlie]

Old Warrior, I missed your last post! Thank you, it's a good point.


One thing that one expects from a professional is the ability to get the job done right in circumstances that are less than ideal. When the job is tough, you call a professional. On any given night there are dozens of factors, both internal and external, that can make practice extra hard for us, and we have to function at the highest possible level regardless.

A professional is also assumed to have a degree of independence. A pro knows when the job is done right, and takes on the full responsibility to analyze the situation, decide on an appropriate course of action, apply the solution correctly, and then objectively assess the result.

Another thing that goes along with professionalism is professional development. Attending seminars, workshops, and things of that sort are an ongoing commitment. We have to talk to others who practice our craft at various levels to compare notes on what is working, and what isn't.

I've hardly known anyone like this, J. Have you? Most professionals I know stumbled into their careers and "do the best they can with what they got." Growth? Sure. But their profession occupies, as Trevanian said, their mind, not their heart, their time, not their thoughts.

[The great I AM]

I imagine that being a Japanese Policeman vying for the National Kendo Title is a lot easier than striving for the same goal elsewhere.What, like Harada Satoru who it took 9 times to win it, or Takahashi Hideaki who came second twice in 10 attempts but never won......and those two were quite special. I have to disagree with you there. They might get more support from their jobs, but that doesn't mean they have it easy, plus some of them are totally maladjusted to the real world. I've met a couple of guys who are super-shit-hot at kendo (all japan medal level) and they have the social skills of a brick.

[Charlie]

Don't talk about my social skills that way, Gibbo!

OW can speak for himself, but I think you are misinterpreting an aspect of his remarks. He only meant, I think, that these people get more support from their country and workplace in athletics than their western counterparts in fencing.

[The great I AM]

Don't talk about my social skills that way, Gibbo!

OW can speak for himself, but I think you are misinterpreting an aspect of his remarks. He only meant, I think, that these people get more support from their country and workplace in athletics than their western counterparts in fencing.Its not as big a difference as some people think though. When police go abroad they have to use their holiday allowance to do it, and some of them take pay cuts for the period of time that they are away. It ain't all flowers and sunshine. I know that its not the same as turning up the day before and taking a job only as a means to do your chosen love, but its not quite the plain sailing people sometimes think it is.

And I couldn't even compare to your social skills, Charlie my good man, so I won't mention them again!

[Old Warrior]

Its not as big a difference as some people think though. When police go abroad they have to use their holiday allowance to do it, and some of them take pay cuts for the period of time that they are away.

But do they have the respect and admiration of their superiors and peers for their efforts? Does their workplace make accomodations for them to train and do many of their colleagues share the same passion? There is a lot more than money involved in my thesis.

I went into a local liquor store wearing a Sung Moo Kwan (my dojang) T Shirt. When the Korean owner heard that I was a black belt in Kumdo it was if she learned I was her long lost cousin. Some cultures respect kendo. My point was that in the US, fencers get no money, no respect and no help with training. Being a world class athlete is not "easy" in any culture. Nevertheless, I still believe that the difference in acceptance between a Japanese Policeman and a US fencer, is profound. I absolutely agree that lack of social skills is often a by-product of decades of training of a solo pursuit.

[Charlie]

OW, I saw a brief bit on an epee fencer on Canadian TV. She said usually whenever she goes anywhere with her gear, cabbies and people on trains are annoyed and assume she's lugging around a cumbersome musical instrument. She said the reaction was the opposite when she got to France. Parisian cab-drivers took one look at her grip and said, "You fence!" and engaged her in conversation, etc.

I'm sure there are a lot of Japanese that think martial arts - even kendo - is eccentric. *shrug*

[Kingofmyrrh]

But their profession occupies, as Trevanian said, their mind, not their heart, their time, not their thoughts.
This sounds like something close to my heart. Do you have a reference for that by any chance?

[Charlie]

King, I sure do, even made a thread about it. It's from Trevanian's spy novel, Shibumi, which I have just started reading. And it's excellent (I'm only about a fifth of the way into it). It's so funny, because the novel came to my attention here at the forum in the first place, in reference to the Japanese game of Go. So I tried to find it, couldn't, read other Trevanian novels, and now want to read every word the guy ever wrote. I even made a thread about it in the Lounge, I'll try to find it an ttt it.

The paraphrase in reference to a character from the novel, a Japanese general. Soldiering in the time of WW II, the writer says, occupies his mind, not his heart, his time, not his thoughts. He does his duty and is a patriot, but he does not buy into all the propaganda of the war machine.

Descriptions like that are classic Travanian. There was a metaphor or two in another novel, Summer of Katya, that made me, as a writer, want to break my pencil I was so envious. Talk about professional!

[enkorat]

I've hardly known anyone like this, J. Have you? Most professionals I know stumbled into their careers and "do the best they can with what they got." Growth? Sure. But their profession occupies, as Trevanian said, their mind, not their heart, their time, not their thoughts.

*raises hand*

um...well...I consider my career and profession to be something that occupies my heart, a considerable amount of time, and a lot of my thoughts, and my career is not something that I have stumbled upon.

Granted there have been lucky moments and opportunities, but since I graduated college I've worked consistently as a scientist, even though I've moved around both geographically and and "moved up the ladder" in my career path. And I think to be a scientist in the US requires definately a lot of passion. It is a risky profession, as competative as other professional career paths, we are paid relatively poorly versus the amount of time we spend in school compared to other professional degree earners, and we are largely misunderstood, mistrusted, and considered to be a low priority for societal resources by the public at large.

One of the main reasons why I chose my career was that it was the only that really captured my interest and desire. Its really the only thing I want to do, the only thing that I *can* do at this point. When the time came to decide what I wanted to do with my life, I took a long hard look at my passions and divided everything I "like" to do into things that I could do as a hobby and things that I couldn't do as a hobby. Of all the things that I do, I realized that the only thing that I couldn't do as a "hobby" was science.

I was watching "Inside the Actor's Studio" and Whoopi Goldberg was on, and she had a very nice bit of advice for people who wanted to be actors, which was "only become an actor if its the only thing you can do." My undergraduate advisor in college told me once "only become a scientist if you can see it as a hobby, because you will never be paid enough otherwise." I've taken that advice and other people's advice to heart actually.... I take my career as a hobby I am intensely interested in that I get paid for.

As to the "professional" versus "amateur" debate, I think it varies highly between occupations and sports. I used to watch a lot of olympic figure skating because my sister and my mom like watching it on TV. But if you look at gymnastics or figure skating, once you become "pro" you go from the peak of your career towards a long slide into mediocre obscurity and long tours with "Disney Magic on Ice" skating with giant Mickey Mouses (Mice?). Contrast that to like american football or golf. Going "pro" in these sports means you advance into a level of higher competiveness and (sometimes) a large increase in money you earn (Tiger Woods comes to mind, he quit college to go pro).

I think going pro (in the US) is entirely dependent on market demands (ie. if there is enough money out there to support an pro "industry" in that sport). I think the money in the form of advertising revenue and sponsorships is dependent on the overall interest in the general public, which I think in turn is most often related to the number of hobbyists in that sport (barring a juicy scandal or two that temporarily inflates public interest in a relatively obscure sport).

I think what "pro" people do for us is that it allows us to relate to them in terms of our shared activity. We can admire their skill and it lets us believe that if we ourselves kept at it as well, maybe one day we too can achieve a measure of success as well.

As for which is "better" in kendo is not so clear cut. Both of the hachidans that I have watched and been taught by here in the US were strictly speaking "amateurs", meaning that they have or had other jobs which generates their primary income. Yet no one can deny that they are hachidans and that they were able to make it through the needle-eye that is the Japanese hachidan exam.

Interesting question, really...

[DarQik]

Many people have observed that the terms professional and amateur are rather loaded with connotation.I think the common connotation is that professional implies an expert, while amateur implies a novice. Within my field, I've worked with many professional novices, a few professional experts, and several people in between with certified skills. I've also known a few amateur experts. Technically, it only takes a paycheck to be a pro, but it takes time and experience to become an expert.

IMO, it is expected that a professional should reach a high level of expertise, but it is more impressive when an amateur does.

[Charlie]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to enkorat again.

Another thoughtful spot as usual, Ken. I said I know "hardly any" professionals. You belong in the hardly any category. I could go on a lengthy rant describing the intelligence of the people I have met in advertising and public relations, and also the level of commitment to the profession, but it would probably not make good reading. Just re-read that last sentence... "intelligence..." "advertising..." Says it all, really. Certainly doesn't describe everybody but I let fly with my share of rants given the opportunity. Mind you, I get incensed because the people I criticize have a great deal of education and privilege and occupy positions of power and money, so I am infuriated that people from these backgrounds are such petty, myopic dim bulbs.

But this is my take on most people: that they stumble into careers, and few love their work and hold themselves to a high standard or performance. I'm quite proud of my work, actually, but I just think most U.S. citizens have a fuzzy definitions of professionalism that means less what J said and more "what I do to pay my mortgage; really, I make it up as I go."

Good, good perspectives, yaw.

[Neil Gendzwill]

But this is my take on most people: that they stumble into careers, and few love their work and hold themselves to a high standard or performance.
Maybe some just don't like to be all public about it:

http://www.laughparty.com/items/938.jpg

[Charlie]

LMAO! Hahahahaha!

[JByrd]

I've hardly known anyone like this, J. Have you? Most professionals I know stumbled into their careers and "do the best they can with what they got." Growth? Sure. But their profession occupies, as Trevanian said, their mind, not their heart, their time, not their thoughts.

Sure, I know people who embody, to various degrees, the ideals of professionalism I described. Whether they came to their profession by chance or by design really is not important, it has to do with the level of performance they are willing to accept from themselves.

I cannot relate to the Trevanian quote at all. How could something occupy your mind and your time, and not your heart and your thoughts? My experience tells me that people cannot compartmentalize themselves in that way. You can only have ONE attitude in your heart and mind, and you take it everywhere you go, and apply it to everything you do.

Even if it were possible to do things without investing one's heart and thoughts, what kind of result could be obtained without them?

[Charlie]

How could something occupy your mind and your time, and not your heart and your thoughts?

What do you do for a living, bro, if you don't mind my asking?


You can only have ONE attitude in your heart and mind, and you take it everywhere you go, and apply it to everything you do.

You're a very unique individual if this is true. It may interest you to know that some people seek this state by applying themselves dilligently to study, prayer, meditation and the like!

[cesarekim]

You know, I've done all kinds of jobs including consulting, pm, foreman, mechanic, cook, blah, blah. I think that at the end of the day I was an amateur in all my positions regardless of the level I was at. One of my old reviews gave me a warm feeling as it stated I was a professional problem-solver and organizer... I guess what I'm trying to say is that people like Ken, if I may presume, have the good fortune of having identified a specific career that lets them express their qualities and strengths directly in their job description whereas others such as I have been forced to adapt whatever skills they have to their current position. Not a very clear statement so any professional writers out there (Charlie, for example) who may understand what I'm trying to say please clarify the concept.... I may even have confused myself....

[JByrd]

What do you do for a living, bro, if you don't mind my asking?

I teach computer programming at a small university.



You're a very unique individual if this is true. It may interest you to know that some people seek this state by applying themselves dilligently to study, prayer, meditation and the like!

All I am saying is that we are who we are, and I doubt I am unique in thinking so. Our attitude is the essence of who we are because it provides our framework for engaging reality. It is our interface to the world, and it is there all the time, not by choice.

In the case of your soldier who would like to think that he really isn't a soldier, or perhaps only part of him is a soldier, I say that's the kind of self-delusion that keeps people from fully engaging reality. It is a crutch because it allows us to look back on failure and dodge our responsibility by saying "it wasn't really ME doing that." As to the soldier, where was "HE" while his body was standing there being a soldier? If "HE" was in some lovely place far, far away, I sure wouldn't want his partially occupied body in the foxhole next to me.

[Fonsz]

You know, I've done all kinds of jobs including consulting, pm, foreman, mechanic, cook, blah, blah. I think that at the end of the day I was an amateur in all my positions regardless of the level I was at. One of my old reviews gave me a warm feeling as it stated I was a professional problem-solver and organizer... I guess what I'm trying to say is that people like Ken, if I may presume, have the good fortune of having identified a specific career that lets them express their qualities and strengths directly in their job description whereas others such as I have been forced to adapt whatever skills they have to their current position. Not a very clear statement so any professional writers out there (Charlie, for example) who may understand what I'm trying to say please clarify the concept.... I may even have confused myself....
Don't be so hard on yourself I think your doing very well. You don't need help from a professional writer. You are always clear and clearly a man of many talents according to your resume.
All that and living in Italy it's a miracle I guess that you get along fine there.:D

[Charlie]

Oh, I agree, Cesare. Well put.

J, I sort of agree with what you're saying. I mean, even though I'd much rather be doing something else, I try to do what I have to do when I have to do it cheerfully and the best I can. If that's what you mean by "one attitude in your heart and mind" then I can agree. This does not mean I always do so gracefully, but an enlightened person might. Example, the mental state of just being in a Zen context. "Now I am sleeping. Now I am awake. Now I am at work. Now I am at home. I just AM." People struggle for that, to be graceful in that.

The character in the novel was an administrator in Manchuria during the Second World War. His mind certainly was somewhere else - with his family in Tokyo, playing Go, and contemplating cherry blossoms. That's what he meant.

[enkorat]

You know, I've done all kinds of jobs including consulting, pm, foreman, mechanic, cook, blah, blah. I think that at the end of the day I was an amateur in all my positions regardless of the level I was at. One of my old reviews gave me a warm feeling as it stated I was a professional problem-solver and organizer... I guess what I'm trying to say is that people like Ken, if I may presume, have the good fortune of having identified a specific career that lets them express their qualities and strengths directly in their job description whereas others such as I have been forced to adapt whatever skills they have to their current position. Not a very clear statement so any professional writers out there (Charlie, for example) who may understand what I'm trying to say please clarify the concept.... I may even have confused myself....

Hehe I had to go back and reread what I wrote...all that holiday food and watching Japanese New Years programming.

I think in some ways "scientist" is a very broad job decription, similar to that of "doctor". Although in some ways I can put a single label on my career, if you describe my job in a similiar way to caesarekim-san's, its not too different in the end. Under the umbrella term "scientist" I've done things from playing around with plants to being a professional rat trainer...and my roommate wonders why I can train cats.

As a scientist I've also had to write to feed myself, learn how to computer program, learn how to control a group of 20 college sophmores from blowing stuff up in lab (babysit), and wear a tie and stand in front of a poster and sell my ideas to other scientists like a salesman...

And I by no means represent my career as a straight line from where I have been to where I am now. Perhaps 'professionally' on a CV I can 'spin' it that way, but there have been a number of mistakes and blind alleys. I know that there are a number of different things people can do to find fufillment, be it making money, finding power, raising a family, volunteering, or perhaps exploring spirituality and religion. I know that to chase after my particular career I've had to put other things on the backburner, and I would be lying if i said I never had some days where I wondered if I'm doing the right thing and going the right way.

I suppose it was my father who inspired in me to approach my professional career with the 'joy and zeal of an amateur'. That has been one of my long term goals for a while now, and I suppose the rest of my life has ordered itself around that goal.

So to an extent, and perhaps I am a minority in this view, I don't really proscribe to a "amateur" and "professional" divide, and I tend not to neatly assign particular virtues or deficits so cleanly to one or the other. You could be a clueless amateur or a consummate professional, or equally be a highly passionate amateur or a completely incompetant professional as well.

I was once watching some National Geographic channel program (you can tell I like to watch a particular segment of the channels on the satellite TV), and a fairly famous egyptian archaeologist was just about to open a sealed tomb, and the TV host mentioned treasure. His reply was "bah, passion is more important than treasure." I smiled at that point.

[hyuna]

I cannot relate to the Trevanian quote at all. How could something occupy your mind and your time, and not your heart and your thoughts? My experience tells me that people cannot compartmentalize themselves in that way. You can only have ONE attitude in your heart and mind, and you take it everywhere you go, and apply it to everything you do.

I relate to the quote very well. The way I think of it, what is meant by "mind" is conscious attention, and what is meant by "heart" is passion.

There are many necessary aspects of my work that occupies my full attention while I am working on it, but very certainly incite no passion or meaningful thought in me whatsoever. I didn't always feel that way about my profession, but I very much do now.

I do have an attitude in my heart that I bring to everything I do. It colors the way I do everything--even the busy work that does nothing deeper than occupying my hands and my attention (and contributes to my paycheck). It just so happens that some of those things that I do feel passionate can be leveraged into other aspects of my work.

I am a professional Unix systems administrator, and that means a lot of things. They all have to do with what you can expect from me and how you can expect me to behave. For example, I have professional standards of behavior, professional standards of ethics, and professional standards of work quality. Obviously, I may be a bad professional, and fail to live up to those standards. However, I think we all recognize someone who is behaving "unprofessionally" and can agree when a "professional" is no good. So, regardless or not someone lives up to those standards, we hold professionals up to them.

I am an amateur philosopher, and that means that you cannot really rely on anything having to do with my philosophizing other than that it comes from my heart. I have no responsibilities or duties to anyone else regarding my ponderings and writings -- it is something I do for my love of philosophy alone. There are such things as bad professionals, but is there such a thing as a bad amateur? I might be an idiot, but does that make me a bad amateur?

Here is a simple example: if you try to engage my professional services to work on a system that I am not familiar with, I am obligated to decline the work. That is because I am not qualified to do the work, and it would be unprofessional to accept the job knowing that I am unable to do the work. But if you talk to me about an area of philosophy that I am not familiar with, I am happy to chat and explore the space all day long. I love to explore such things, and the fact that I am unfamiliar with it just makes it that much more exciting.

I am also an amateur photographer, and I have made a conscious decision not to try to become a professional one, precisely because I don't want to deal with conflicts like the above. I do not want professional obligations to interfere with my enjoyment of the art -- which is, as I see it, the right to fail.

On the flip side, if you engage me in philosophy or photography you will be talking to the real me. But if you talk to me about systems administration, you will be talking, first and foremost, to a role and a position. I may have personal opinions about my work, my company, the future of my profession, and such things, but it is unprofessional to discuss those (while on duty). There is a clear difference between a professional opinion and a personal one. Moreover, there are many times where professionalism specifically requires the ability to divorce one's personal feelings from the job at hand. For example, I am obliged to work closely with my coworkers or clients to get the job done regardless of how I feel personally about them.

I personally think that the idea of an "amateur budoka" is a bizarre one. The warrior caste was first and formost a profession, by any reasonable sense of the word. The quasi-militaristic culture of kendo is more "professional" than "amateur," as I see it. Think of it this way: in shiai, it doesn't matter who your opponent is -- dojo-mate, friend, spouse -- you must defeat them. You must put aside all of your personal attachments and just get the job done. I think that is, ultimately, what it means to be a professional.

[ben]

...Here is a simple example: if you try to engage my professional services to work on a system that I am not familiar with, I am obligated to decline the work. That is because I am not qualified to do the work, and it would be unprofessional to accept the job knowing that I am unable to do the work...


That's all well and good until work becomes scarce, and you have to make money to feed your family. Then one has no option but to say yes to the work (a good freelancer always says yes to work!), go away and cram the new info you need to do the job, then learn on the job. "Fake it 'til you make it" is the personal mantra of EVERYONE working in media/advertising/film/communications/etc. Does this make you unprofessional? Probably, in this very narrrow sense. Do you care? Hell no! Is it a scary way to work? Yep. Does the client notice? No, because if they knew how to do it they wouldn't be paying you to do it. And guess what--you never learn new skills as fast or as deeply as when your livelihood depends on it.

b

[Charlie]

Well said, Ben.

Arthur: also well said. I dunno about their weirdness around amateur budoka as a term, though, since, to me, historically, "budo" denotes the period after 1600 when samurai had to be some many other things - mostly administrators - besides soldiers, and budo increasingly took its place among other arts rather than the core of the bushi's curriculum. You know what I mean? After 1600 or so samurai were less warriors first and admins second than admins first and warriors second. They were also encouraged to take up other arts as a way of cultivating themeslves or, more cynically, staying out of trouble and not brawling in the streets. Just my two yen. As far as I know, neither of us is a professional historian or budo researcher - so we can talk about it all day long! :D

[hyuna]

That's all well and good until work becomes scarce, and you have to make money to feed your family. Then one has no option but to say yes to the work (a good freelancer always says yes to work!), go away and cram the new info you need to do the job, then learn on the job. "Fake it 'til you make it" is the personal mantra of EVERYONE working in media/advertising/film/communications/etc. Does this make you unprofessional? Probably, in this very narrrow sense. Do you care? Hell no! Is it a scary way to work? Yep. Does the client notice? No, because if they knew how to do it they wouldn't be paying you to do it. And guess what--you never learn new skills as fast or as deeply as when your livelihood depends on it.

Well, two comments

First, if you can do the job, you can do the job. That's the main thing. You never know all of the details beforehand. So I suppose I might have said it a little too strongly before. My point was just that it is unprofessional to take a job that you cannot perform, whereas there is no such constraint for doing something for yourself as an amateur.

Second, "fake it 'til you make it" is a common attitude amongst consultants in all fields, not just media/advertising/etc. It isn't the case that people hire only because they don't know how to do it. There is the matter of time and simple willingness to do things. I am not going to be the photographer at my own wedding or at my own events. One also hires consultants that are simply more expert than you -- that doesn't mean that you are entirely clueless.

Ok, there are lots of expert and highly professional people out there. However, you're touching a nerve, here...


At least in IT, working with incompetant consultants is commonplace. It amazes me how many people have exactly the kind of attitude that you express. I have seen many projects, indeed some entire businesses, fall apart because of what amounts to poor funding -- because money was wasted on alleged experts.

Yes, you have to feed your family. That does not mean that you have to accept work that you cannot do. The problem is one of pride -- working in IT (or whatever) is not the only way to make money.

You may well learn fast when your livelihood depends on it, however, it is not only your livelihood that depends on it. Ultimately, if you can do it, you can do it. But in my experience, more often than not, the person cannot. IT consultants get hired for huge, complex, and difficult projects, and those are not things that you can just kind of pick up as you go along. Then it's the employer, not the consultant, that absorbs the majority of the costs of the failure.

The most dangerous thing is exactly the situation that you mention before, when the employer doesn't know anything and so can't judge the work product. Software systems are often built at great expense, but without due dilligence being performed. The end result is that the company gets a "solution" that doesn't meet their needs at all, and then they don't understand why their problems have gotten worse instead of better. The consultant gets paid, and the company takes a few more steps towards failure. The consultant has moved on, doesn't see the fallout, and doesn't even necessarily ever come to understand what they have done. The most insidious aspect to this is that it preserves the unwarranted impression that the consultant is actually good at what they do. By the time anyone (the consultant themself included) figures out otherwise, it is too late. Perhaps it is cynical of me to believe it, but I don't think I will live to see a consultant refund money for a project that they worked on years ago simply because they know now that they did a bad job.

Again, not to say that all consultants are like that. I have had the pleasure of working with many brilliant freelance IT people. I have many highly competant friends who are IT consultants. All of them are annoyed by such people, since it harms the profession as a whole. Every bad experience an employer has with an IT consultant makes it harder for a good consultant to get work in the future.

The perceived need to take on some specific job notwithstanding, it is unprofessional and irresponsible to take a job that you ultimately cannot actually perform. I doubt that anyone who has been burned by a "professional" would disagree with that, regardless of how sympathetic we might feel for their financial situation.

[JByrd]

I relate to the quote very well. The way I think of it, what is meant by "mind" is conscious attention, and what is meant by "heart" is passion.

There are many necessary aspects of my work that occupies my full attention while I am working on it, but very certainly incite no passion or meaningful thought in me whatsoever. I didn't always feel that way about my profession, but I very much do now.

I can understand that. I certainly have no passion for typing numbers into a spreadsheet, but I do have a passion for doing my job well, no matter what that entails. That is why I am as careful in typing in those numbers correctly as I am in choosing my words in a lecture, which is something I can feel passionate about.

There is a story I like to relate to my students about two workers hewing stone. When one worker is asked what he is doing, he replies that he is breaking rocks. When the other is asked the same question, he replies that he is building a great temple. The idea of having passion for breaking rocks is silly, but not so for building temples. The two workers are doing the same thing, the difference is in their attitudes toward what they are doing.

[hyuna]

I can understand that. I certainly have no passion for typing numbers into a spreadsheet, but I do have a passion for doing my job well, no matter what that entails.
I don't believe I know anyone who prefers to do a bad job to a good job, even if they don't particularly care how well a job they do (malice aside). I think the distinction between amateur and profession has to do with why they care how good a job they do, and not simply the natural preference for doing good work.


There is a story I like to relate to my students about two workers hewing stone. When one worker is asked what he is doing, he replies that he is breaking rocks. When the other is asked the same question, he replies that he is building a great temple. The idea of having passion for breaking rocks is silly, but not so for building temples. The two workers are doing the same thing, the difference is in their attitudes toward what they are doing.
That's a nice story, however

1) if you are a worker in a stone quary, you don't necessarily know what the stone is for. so the idea that one is building a great temple may simply be self-dellusion

2) simply breaking rocks may be preferable to building a great temple to a religion that one does not believe in

3) this is a personal opinion of mine, but if i cut 1,000 blocks of stone for something like the taj mahal or one of the great pyramids of giza, it would be disingenuous to take any significant credit for the building of the temple.

I understand the idea you are expressing, and I think it is a valid one, but I think it is more applicable to a job like yours than to a tradecraft job like the stonecutter's, or like mine.

The aspects of my job that are like yours, like mentoring junior technical staff, is rewarding in the way you say -- but those are ancillary, not core, aspects to my profession. The "greater context" for running a computing environment is the business that the environment supports, and the development and direction of that business as part of a businessman's profession, not mine. That is not to say that I cannot influence it, however, that is, again, an ancillary and not core aspect to my profession. I think most professions are more like this, where the larger context is not really something within our view. Moreover, many people would argue that circumstances should require that the larger context be withheld from the professional's view. Medicine, in particular, seems to be full of these kinds of connundrums. Indeed, in my own profession, maintaining user privacy is a key ethical value, which means that I am intended to be, in many circumstances, unaware of how those stones I am cutting are being used. This fact has created many bitter and ugly surprises for me in the past.

[JByrd]

J, I sort of agree with what you're saying. I mean, even though I'd much rather be doing something else, I try to do what I have to do when I have to do it cheerfully and the best I can. If that's what you mean by "one attitude in your heart and mind" then I can agree. This does not mean I always do so gracefully, but an enlightened person might.

I think you do understand my meaning, thanks for being patient and trying to see where I am coming from. Finding, and maintaining, an "optimal attitude" at all times is my goal. With my heart and mind in the right place, I know I can get the best out of myself, whatever happens. Of course I often fail, and let my attitude become negative. That usually happens when I expect more from people than they are able, or willing, to give.

[Old Warrior]

I mean, even though I'd much rather be doing something else, I try to do what I have to do when I have to do it cheerfully and the best I can.

I have worked in or run a professional practice for over 30 years. It is unimportant to me whether I like the client or not. It is unimportant whether or not I believe the cause is righteous, although I always express my moral/ethical take on the subject in private. For me the essence of the amateur verses the professional is that I always give my absolute best regardless how I may feel, when I am being paid to perform. When I am doing something for myself, I may give in to sloth or being tired. But, when I am working as a professional, nothing personal intereferes with my focus or performance. If I cannot give my best for reasons beyond my control, I advise the client in advance and we pursue the possibility of obtaining a substitute.

When more than personal satisfaction is at stake and you receive consideration for your concerted effort - you are a professional.

[ben]

I have worked in or run a professional practice for over 30 years. It is unimportant to me whether I like the client or not. It is unimportant whether or not I believe the cause is righteous, although I always express my moral/ethical take on the subject in private. For me the essence of the amateur verses the professional is that I always give my absolute best regardless how I may feel, when I am being paid to perform. When I am doing something for myself, I may give in to sloth or being tired. But, when I am working as a professional, nothing personal intereferes with my focus or performance. If I cannot give my best for reasons beyond my control, I advise the client in advance and we pursue the possibility of obtaining a substitute.

When more than personal satisfaction is at stake and you receive consideration for your concerted effort - you are a professional.

So when it comes to kendo OW, how is it with you? Do you approach kendo as an amateur or as if you were a professional?

b

[kurisu]

I feel that this thread treats Kendo only as a sport, which is kind of why I’ve been avoiding it. Separating Kendo into amateur/professional groupings leads one to think it is only a sport since there are no professional swordsmen in the world today.

I believe Kendo is Budo, therefore if there were such a thing as a modern day professional swordsman, his job would be to kill. Naturally his intensity of training would be at a higher level simply because his life would depended on it. Of course it always boils down to the individual, just like the Samurai vs. Knight argument (personally, I believe in a duel with swords alone a Samurai would defeat a Knight due to the hundreds of years longer they fought and developed swordsmanship, long after westerners put down their swords in favor of guns.). Having been a professional soldier, I’d say in general, the professional warrior/killer should have the advantage.

The more we think that Kendo is just a sport, the more we loose touch with what following the Way of the Sword is. My attitude is heavily based on what Noma Hisashi writes in The Kendo Reader and by what I am told by many of the old school Sensei I have had the privilege learn from.

IMO, everyone who thinks and practices Kendo as if it were only a sport, should do Kumdo instead, and then lobby to get Kumdo in the Olympics, keeping Kendo and Kumdo spereate and keeping the sporting mentality out of Kendo. Not the “Kumdo is the same as Kendo, Kumdo” but the blue and white, no sonkyo Kumdo. As much as the one camp of Kumdo people ,who say Kumdo is the same as Kendo, would like to believe that they are the same, again IMO, if you are not wearing red or white, not doing sonkyo before the match starts, and not using Japanese words, you are not doing Kendo. Although everything else may look the same, it’s not the same. (oops, going off somewhere else again…..)

Bottom line, professional for practical and it depend on who's philosophical point of view.

[Old Warrior]

So when it comes to kendo OW, how is it with you? Do you approach kendo as an amateur or as if you were a professional?

b

In order to open my professional practice it took 7 years of college, numerous licensures and working as a "junior" for a number of years. Being a 2nd Dan, with just over 5 years of training, does not give me the right to even dream about myself as a professional. Moreover, at 58, I doubt that my body will ever allow me to achieve the level of physical skill necessary for me to see myself in the "professional" category.

Nevertheless, I am a very serious amateur, with a lifetime history of studying karate and European fencing. I have modest wisdom from these disciplines that carries over to my approach to Kumdo. For me, the study of Kumdo is part of my "way of life" and it is neither a "hobby" or a "profession". It is just part of what/whom I am.

[johnkichu]

I feel that this thread treats Kendo only as a sport, which is kind of why I’ve been avoiding it. Separating Kendo into amateur/professional groupings leads one to think it is only a sport since there are no professional swordsmen in the world today.

I would disagree. If you read the original posts, the question being asked is not whether kendo is a sport or not. There are other threads for that.


I believe Kendo is Budo, therefore if there were such a thing as a modern day professional swordsman, his job would be to kill …… The more we think that Kendo is just a sport, the more we loose touch with what following the Way of the Sword is.

Is anyone on the thread questioning this?


IMO, everyone who thinks and practices Kendo as if it were only a sport, should do Kumdo instead, and then lobby to get Kumdo in the Olympics, keeping Kendo and Kumdo spereate and keeping the sporting mentality out of Kendo. Not the “Kumdo is the same as Kendo, Kumdo” but the blue and white, no sonkyo Kumdo. As much as the one camp of Kumdo people ,who say Kumdo is the same as Kendo, would like to believe that they are the same, again IMO, if you are not wearing red or white, not doing sonkyo before the match starts, and not using Japanese words, you are not doing Kendo. Although everything else may look the same, it’s not the same. (oops, going off somewhere else again…..)

Unless I’m really misreading what you’ve posted, I’d say that your understanding of kumdo is flawed, and based only on your perceived differences between kumdo and kendo. Korea also has a very long history of sword art, mudo and the warrior ethos – all of which has been melded into modern kumdo. No one in Korea today teaches kumdo as only sport, or thinks kumdo is only sport. The core spirit of Kumdo and the spirit of Kendo (if you believe what’s on both KKA and AJKF sites) are about as same you can get. Like OW, I would consider myself a serious amateur – does this mean that I can’t approach life with the same spirit? These things are a part of what/who I am.

By the way, there are kumdo schools which do sonkyo, and we can take your logic several steps further, until it becomes absurd: you can’t be doing kendo unless you’re Japanese.

[cesarekim]

This could be an apocryphal reasoning but, in Korea, red is for dead people. You never sign your name with a red pen because that's done on memorial cards for dead people. Having said that, red ribbons were substitued with blue ones to avoid ruffling people's sensibilities...

[Anime12478]

This could be an apocryphal reasoning but, in Korea, red is for dead people. You never sign your name with a red pen because that's done on memorial cards for dead people. Having said that, red ribbons were substitued with blue ones to avoid ruffling people's sensibilities...
Now that is interesting. I knew that Kumdo people used different colors, but I didn't know that was the reasoning.

I guess I'll go on ahead and chime in on this, especially to express my thoughts along with Kurisu's post.

I don't believe that this thread is treating Kendo as just a sport at all. I do agree with some of the people on there saying that the difference between professional and ametuer people depends on whether or not you get paid for it, and in no way a sign of your true abilities.

But just because you are a professional, it doesn't mean that you can be any less into the spiritual aspects. The difference is that, if you are a professional, you get paid to do what you want to do and you are expected to do a good job at what you are specializing in. So while the amateur people definately outweigh the professionals, there are a few professional swordsmen in Kendo who might be paid by their representative companies to help them perform well at competitions. There are also professional swordsmen in general, like the guys who teach it for a living and see it as their only source of income. They get paid to teach and they are definately expected to do a good job at it.

As far as the remarks about Kumdo are concerned, I really wouldn't go as far as to say that. Based off of what I have heard from other members of this forum and seen on other websites, Kumdo does seem more sporty and aggressive than its Japanese counterpart but I really do see them as two sides of the same coin. While each one has their differences for cultural reasons, they seem to have similar goals of improving oneself through the concentration and control of the sword. And while people treating Kendo/Kumdo as a sport isn't necessarily wrong, your tone about the Kumdo people sort of gave me a condencending vibe about it.

I probably had more to say, but my mind moves at a trillion miles per hour so I can't really remember all that I wanted to say. Well, later peeps!

[Shazzanzzz]

I feel that this thread treats Kendo only as a sport, which is kind of why I’ve been avoiding it. Separating Kendo into amateur/professional groupings leads one to think it is only a sport since there are no professional swordsmen in the world today.

I believe Kendo is Budo, therefore if there were such a thing as a modern day professional swordsman, his job would be to kill. Naturally his intensity of training would be at a higher level simply because his life would depended on it. Of course it always boils down to the individual, just like the Samurai vs. Knight argument (personally, I believe in a duel with swords alone a Samurai would defeat a Knight due to the hundreds of years longer they fought and developed swordsmanship, long after westerners put down their swords in favor of guns.). Having been a professional soldier, I’d say in general, the professional warrior/killer should have the advantage.

The more we think that Kendo is just a sport, the more we loose touch with what following the Way of the Sword is. My attitude is heavily based on what Noma Hisashi writes in The Kendo Reader and by what I am told by many of the old school Sensei I have had the privilege learn from.

IMO, everyone who thinks and practices Kendo as if it were only a sport, should do Kumdo instead, and then lobby to get Kumdo in the Olympics, keeping Kendo and Kumdo spereate and keeping the sporting mentality out of Kendo. Not the “Kumdo is the same as Kendo, Kumdo” but the blue and white, no sonkyo Kumdo. As much as the one camp of Kumdo people ,who say Kumdo is the same as Kendo, would like to believe that they are the same, again IMO, if you are not wearing red or white, not doing sonkyo before the match starts, and not using Japanese words, you are not doing Kendo. Although everything else may look the same, it’s not the same. (oops, going off somewhere else again…..)

Bottom line, professional for practical and it depend on who's philosophical point of view.

WOW. This gives away the fact that you know nothing about kendo. To be pro level, which means WKC/All-Japan level, there's no way you can think of kendo of just as a sport. It only works in perhaps local tournaments in low dan, kyu levels. Kendo is 90% mental.

[Obulco]

In philosophical terms which approach is preferable? This is leading on from some OT discussion on the WKC thread. I think there are many layers to this. Interested to hear people's thoughts.

b

We fall in love with an art (I do not mind to call it sport, if you like) and we can’t help to dream how wonderful would be to be able to practice it full time or at least make it the center of our life. However, it takes a very special type of person to accomplish that and survive the ordeal. In my youth, I worked very hard for that ideal in Judo and when I finally got the door open (scholarship, monthly stipend, etc.) I closed it shut. It took me just a few weeks to quit. A world in which you do little else than training, living and breathing a martial art/sport is not for everybody. Being young and silly, I blamed it on the fact that Judo was at that time morphing into something I felt was not true Budo. That was a poor excuse. While that could have been part of it, the truth is that I did not have what it takes to be there.

In response to Ben’s poll, I would say that it is true that amateurs tend to love what they do and when/if they move to do it full time, they often need to put the love aside and concentrate on the task at hand. On the amateur group, I admire those individuals that, while practicing or teaching, give everything they have to what they do for themselves and the rest of us students. On the full time group, my admiration goes to those who, despise the pressure of the business of competing or coaching, are capable of preserving the passion for the art. I have met great examples of both.

[Ignatz]

So we have pages and pages of discussion of Amateur/Professional and even more about Sport/Martial Art. Nice. But it is just a big discussion over nothing isn't it? A big made-up controversy? Trying to define things that really escape definition. Not everything can be crammed into neat little cubbyholes. You are this or you are that. You are with us or you are against us. You are a slimy little sport kendo dilletante or you are a big tough, highly evolved, Martial Artist like me.

What you call it is less important than what you do. Old Warrior has it nailed, I think. After 20 years I am still "practicing" law.

It brings to mind a saying regarding the use of the word "good" and how it really depended upon context.

"If a man were to take a rifle and shoot his grandmother from a distance of 800 yards you could call him a "good" shot but not necessarily a "good" person."

Anyway, Carry on. (We could have a long discussion about what that means now couldn't we?)

[johnkichu]

So we have pages and pages of discussion of Amateur/Professional and even more about Sport/Martial Art. Nice. But it is just a big discussion over nothing isn't it? A big made-up controversy? Trying to define things that really escape definition. Not everything can be crammed into neat little cubbyholes. You are this or you are that. You are with us or you are against us. You are a slimy little sport kendo dilletante or you are a big tough, highly evolved, Martial Artist like me.

What you call it is less important than what you do. Old Warrior has it nailed, I think. After 20 years I am still "practicing" law.

It brings to mind a saying regarding the use of the word "good" and how it really depended upon context.

"If a man were to take a rifle and shoot his grandmother from a distance of 800 yards you could call him a "good" shot but not necessarily a "good" person."

Anyway, Carry on. (We could have a long discussion about what that means now couldn't we?)

Ho, ho, ho!

Well said.